Your favorite unplayable character option? [Archive]

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StevenC21

2019-05-11, 04:47 PM

Be it a class, race, template, or anything.

Heck, even a monster you might want your character to be.

But what's your favorite character option that you conceptually LOVE, but can never bring yourself to play because it's just mechanically awful?

For me, it's the Duelist. Super awesome concept. I love the idea. In practice? Bad AC, bad damage, bad bonus abilities. There's really nothing to like about it. It sucks.

Particle_Man

2019-05-12, 12:32 AM

Green star adept is fascinating albeit subpar. I have in my head the idea of a half green dragon half ogre (other half human) that takes all ten levels of that class. That LA is a killer too.

Stonechild is another one I love the idea of. Again, pity about the LA.

Shadow sun ninja is problematic.

Master of nine also problematic. I still design characters around the ideas (even a Stonechild crusader master of nine) but playing them would be unfair to my fellow players.

I like the idea of an arcane hierophant mystic theurge, but would only play it in special situations like an otherwise all martial party that wanted a buffer but did not want magic to overshadow them.

I like the idea of the duellist and swashbuckler too.

Oh, vow of poverty! Actually that may not count; I actually played a monk with that.

StevenC21

2019-05-12, 12:48 AM

What's problematic about Shadow Sun Ninja?

Crake

2019-05-12, 12:48 AM

Malphegor

2019-05-12, 04:56 AM

Crake

2019-05-12, 05:07 AM

Warforged Factotum, every feat is Font of Inspiration (from a wev doodad, it gives you +1, +2, etc inspiration each time you take it). I’m pretty sure this is the most boring way to play a factotum, and you’re basically a factotum without any useful feats beyond increasing the capacity of times (by a ridiculous amount as Font of Inspiration gives you more each time you take it) you can do factotum stuff.

But there’s something quite fun as a concept there, a warforged whose entire combat effectiveness is based on this one ‘battery’ of power, whose main schtick is emulating things it has seen on the battlefield in ages past. I wouldn’t want to play it for more than a session maybe.

Font of inspiration is by far the best feat available for factotums, the only reason most people don't take nothing but that feat when they play one is because you're limited in the number of times you can take it equal to your int modifier, so having 14 int for example means you can only take it twice.

Malphegor

2019-05-12, 05:35 AM

Font of inspiration is by far the best feat available for factotums, the only reason most people don't take nothing but that feat when they play one is because you're limited in the number of times you can take it equal to your int modifier, so having 14 int for example means you can only take it twice.

Ah, I’d assumed there was no limit, hah. (I read the feat, but retained nothing but the benefits it seems lol)

ekarney

2019-05-12, 07:14 AM

I've always wanted to play a symbiotic or multi-headed character, but I'm currently the sole DM of my group not to mention they're both templates that are A. Annoying because of odd LA and variables, and B. complex to actually RP and build around.

I've always wanted to play a javelin or sling based skirmish sort of build, but both tactically and mechanically they're not well suited to D&D.

I've had a half-fleshed out build for a group of Goblins who use various polearms and swarmfighting sitting on my backburner for ages, can't really see it happening all according to the build unless I get a DM who'll let me cohort stack, and build my cohorts. (It's by no means broken but it has to be so specific and cohort stacking requires so much investment and trust from a DM that I can't see it happening.)

But primarily, my number 1 concept I've wanted to work, is a build that uses the blunderbuss from that one DragMag and a cutlass. But that static DC15 save to avoid it just hurts too much after like, level 4. If I could pump the save DC up somehow, or something else. I don't even know, it's such an awkward problem with no glaring solution outside of DM fiat. Also the total lack of firearms support from WotC really hurts.

MisterKaws

2019-05-12, 09:19 AM

What's problematic about Shadow Sun Ninja?

It's just fundamentally worse than not taking it and going full Swordsage.

As for what I'd want to play, probably Truenamer. It's just that it requires a very lenient DM to be good. You need to have a DM that's literally constantly sucking up to you by giving all the magic items you need.

Probably Tibbit or Buonman Truenamer too, just because.

Kaleph

2019-05-12, 09:57 AM

The dvati always fascinated me, and probably isn't even bad as a race, but the amount of adaptation and houseruling that seems to require always scared me.

Also, it looks like, depending on your DM ruling, tends a bit too fast towards "overpowered" or "underwhelming", I always had the feeling with this race that the challenge would be to make it balanced.

Vizzerdrix

2019-05-12, 12:49 PM

I love the idea of the Lantan Artificer, but the devices are trash and the whole thing feels clunky.

And I won't ever play a fiend of possession again, I think. It was too much.

Zaq

2019-05-12, 12:59 PM

Troacctid

2019-05-12, 01:12 PM

Multitasking feat on a caster. I've tried to make it work, but it's really tough hitting the BAB requirements.

Epic warlock feats. Nobody actually plays epic games.

Bphill561

2019-05-12, 06:19 PM

I love the idea of the Lantan Artificer, but the devices are trash and the whole thing feels clunky.

And I won't ever play a fiend of possession again, I think. It was too much.

Yeah, Fiend of Possession was on my list and I got to play it recently. It went pretty well, I was mostly social and did not interfere with the party much. They did not even know I was playing one for half the campaign, I just rode an NPC until the great unveiling.

Next project is a Sharn with the multiheaded template (just one extra head). The extra head is no necessary, but perfect weapon fighting is a nice add one especially if the DM is nice and considers the 2HD from the template has advancing by HD for sharn rules.

weckar

2019-05-12, 07:48 PM

Font of inspiration is by far the best feat available for factotums, the only reason most people don't take nothing but that feat when they play one is because you're limited in the number of times you can take it equal to your int modifier, so having 14 int for example means you can only take it twice.

You can also only use so much inspiration per encounter. At some point it just does not add anything anymore.

Crake

2019-05-12, 07:53 PM

You can also only use so much inspiration per encounter. At some point it just does not add anything anymore.

Doesn't sneak attack cost 1 inspiration point per D6? Can't you spend inspiration points on practically every attack roll? Can't you spend 3 inspiration for an extra standard action? Aren't practically all of the uses free/non-actions? There's almost always another point you could spend somewhere in any particular encounter, I guarantee it. When I played a factotum, I had something like 14 inspiration points, and even then I felt like I could definitely use more.

sorcererlover

2019-05-12, 08:17 PM

Not quite because they're mechanically awful, but for me, playing a t1 caster to any degree of competence at my table is practically impossible, none of the players at my table can keep up either when I'm doing it as a player or as a DM, so I'm forced to either downplay or not use them :smallfrown:

If I were you i'd play the wizard anyways as an TPK encounter as a wake-up call to your other players to get good. Nothing ruins d&d more than cutting 99% of the content because noob mundane players don't want to spend the effort to learn the game. After enough character deaths they will start reading up on how to survive the most basic of wizards and spend their money on things they actually need like immunities to the various SoDs instead of whatever they're doing.

Why play d&d 3.5 if you're not gonna use spellcasting? Switch to 5e.

GreatWyrmGold

2019-05-12, 11:00 PM

I've always wanted to play a symbiotic or multi-headed character, but I'm currently the sole DM of my group not to mention they're both templates that are A. Annoying because of odd LA and variables, and B. complex to actually RP and build around.

This brought a big smile to my face, because my gaming group ran through Storm King's Thunder with two players playing an ettin named Mundogar. (I think they basically used these (https://www.dndbeyond.com/races/60824-ettin) rules, except they rolled for ability scores nine times and just assigned three of those to physical abilities.) Mundo was a barbarian who served as the group's tank; Dogar was a warlock who picked up an unfortunate love of the spell blink. I learned how terrible of a tank my cleric was. It was fun!
It would not have worked very well if the group dynamics had been different. My character, Kazune, was a Lord's Alliance kid, very straight-laced and formal (but not too strict to his comrades, because that wouldn't be fun for anyone and also wouldn't help). Mundogar was a folk hero (their catchphrase was "We big hero") and a member of the Lord's Alliance, wearing their emblem proudly on basically every article of clothing they wore (as an explanation for why an ettin could amble into town without stirring panic and mobs of local adventurers); he was sent to help Kazune on his mission, along with the first of many replacement characters for a problem player whose foolishness is a story for another time. Mundogar listened to Kazune, but could end up in trouble if he wasn't watched (like one time Dogar pushed Mundo off of the dock, which lead to some miscommunication about going to a bathhouse that I never heard the end of).

TL;DR: This is 100% playable, if you have the right players. To quote our DM, "It's going to be incredible, I just don't know if it'll be incredibly good or incredibly bad."
I'm not sure how to make it work in 3.5 and be balanced, but a DM who's interested in trying it out could probably start with the ettin rules I linked.

If I were you i'd play the wizard anyways as an TPK encounter as a wake-up call to your other players to get good. Nothing ruins d&d more than cutting 99% of the content because noob mundane players don't want to spend the effort to learn the game. After enough character deaths they will start reading up on how to survive the most basic of wizards and spend their money on things they actually need like immunities to the various SoDs instead of whatever they're doing.

I am so glad I'm not in your group. My group actually does have a munchkin who could pull off that kind of stuff, but he doesn't want to because there's only so much fun to be had from "beating" the game. Instead, he munchkins to make silly concepts work, which not only fits in with the lackluster optimization skills of basically the entire rest of the group, but also lets him play silly characters that still work.
For those who read the previous spoiler, he played Dogar. In Pathfinder, he's played a self-buffing whip-using cleric who he quickly retired for being too strong (which was semi-intentional, since he wanted to annoy the DM); an evil alchemist with potions or infusions for any situation but few combat options beyond bombs and buffs; and a halfling rogue who specializes in jumping on top of enemies (which gives allies flanking bonuses).

I'm not going to call your kind of D&D "wrong". There are games which I enjoy optimizing, but TRPGs are not among them. I don't play TRPGs for the numbers games; I find VRPGs much more satisfying in that regard. I play TRPGs for the characters I can create, the characters the other players create, and the stories we tell along the way. This is also a legitimate way to play D&D, but it's a fundamentally different game from the kind you like to play. It's not just "noobs" who don't bother with optimization; one of the guys at my table has been playing D&D since second edition, and he still doesn't care about charop, because he doesn't play a version of D&D where that matters.
If you're DMing a game where enemy wizards destroy underprepared characters as punishment for not grabbing the "right" immunities and whatnot, and they don't start consulting charop boards for advice on how to build uber-characters, it doesn't mean they're bad players. It means you're a bad DM, for either not communicating the kind of game you want to run or not running the game the players want to play. Possibly both, if you're as blind to other playstyles as your tone implies.

P.S. There's a lot you can do with spellcasting in 3.5 that you can't in 5e, and not all of it involves SoD abuse.

Telonius

2019-05-12, 11:43 PM

Literally unplayable? A Lawful Bard. (This is Exhibit A of why I remove most alignment restrictions in my house rules). I want a Skald who preserves all of the oral traditions of their people, respectful of the past and preserving tradition for the next generation.

SLOTHRPG95

2019-05-13, 12:37 AM

Hexblade. I love the "debuffing warrior" concept. I've tried playing them multiple times with different houserules to make them better, and they still always end up garbage. I can't pinpoint a single reason why, but I've just never made it line up even when we patch the obvious problems with the class as written.

I love the concept of the shadowcaster, but it's just so limited and so low on stamina that I don't think I'll ever bring one to the table.

It depends on what sort of table you're at, but I've found that giving a Hexblade the same casting progression as a Bard and allowing them casting in Medium armor w/o costing a feat can do the trick. It makes them more of an actual hexer with enough spells to back up their limited uses of their class abilities, and it makes them less MAD by de-prioritizing dexterity. As for Shadowcasters, I actually tried playing a Wizard/Shadowcaster/Noctumancer once since I loved the concept of Shadow Magic but wanted some more old-fashioned, reliable spells to back it up. Unfortunately, I was barely into Noctumancer when we TPKed, partially due to my abysmal lack of spells/mysteries per day. If I'd gone single-classed Shadowcaster, it'd have actually been worse. Shadowcaster'd probably be my personal pick of favorite unplayable option.

Literally unplayable? A Lawful Bard. (This is Exhibit A of why I remove most alignment restrictions in my house rules). I want a Skald who preserves all of the oral traditions of their people, respectful of the past and preserving tradition for the next generation.

This is possible, as long as you're willing to seek Atonement for your Lawful deeds every time that you are about to level up. You can then just stray once more from the path of Chaos, reverting to your Lawful behavior in short order. Heck yes it's totally cheesy, but it's not literally unplayable.

Particle_Man

2019-05-13, 12:41 AM

Well there is that 3.5 feat in complete adventurer (devoted performer) that lets you play a LG paladin/bard.

Eldariel

2019-05-13, 01:27 AM

Possible but way too much effort: mundane sniper. Now yes, you can pull off Targetteer + Deepwood Sniper + Aura of Perfect Order before 20 but it takes way too many levels, lacks tricks vs. Crit-immunity and is just so much worse in every way than just casting Hunter's Mercy with no build resources invested.

Kaleph

2019-05-13, 01:56 AM

Next project is a Sharn with the multiheaded template (just one extra head). The extra head is no necessary, but perfect weapon fighting is a nice add one especially if the DM is nice and considers the 2HD from the template has advancing by HD for sharn rules.

Ah, the sharn, one of my favorite characters! I've played one once, and it was banhammered by the DM after, say, 5 sessions - just enough to cover a story arc that involved a lot of combat on a
semi-uninhabited island.
Really overpowered, although a straight wizard is probably contributing more to the party's scopes. But taken in isolation, the sharn may seem broken as it gives you an idea of "unstoppability".

Anyhow the main reason the DM banned it, besides the fact that it didn't fit the average optimization level of the party, was more or less "you are not going back to a civilized land WITH THAT THING if you don't want to scare the **** out of every peasant".

Luccan

2019-05-13, 02:19 AM

Anything with "ninja" in its name. The base class, Ninja Spy, Shadow Sun Ninja, so on. These classes tend to have cool abilities that are way too limited/gained too late in comparison to spell or maneuvers.

There are a ton of really flavorful and unique Wu Jen spells that I'd love to use on a character that would actually be hot garbage in practice.

Before I learned about OA Samurai and its character-not-class-level refluffable magic weapon, I really wanted to use the CW Kensai

And now for something less weebish: I really like the Spellsword PRC, but they don't even get a unique class feature until level 4. Honestly, you could throw most of the classes in CW here. I loved that book, but most of its offerings were kind of terrible in retrospect. I mean, this is the book that gave us Spell-less Rangers and Paladins.

I wish Soulknife was even a quarter as good as the people who wrote it up thought it was. As is, I have a strong desire to play in a very low-tier class game just to have fun with some of the options that normally are too bad to pick even for fun.

Edit: Ooh, Ooh! Dragon Shaman especially. I like all their abilities and don't even mind they barely tie into the dragon theme. It's just they get outshined by everyone.

Crake

2019-05-13, 03:44 AM

If I were you i'd play the wizard anyways as an TPK encounter as a wake-up call to your other players to get good. Nothing ruins d&d more than cutting 99% of the content because noob mundane players don't want to spend the effort to learn the game. After enough character deaths they will start reading up on how to survive the most basic of wizards and spend their money on things they actually need like immunities to the various SoDs instead of whatever they're doing.

Why play d&d 3.5 if you're not gonna use spellcasting? Switch to 5e.

I am so glad I'm not in your group. My group actually does have a munchkin who could pull off that kind of stuff, but he doesn't want to because there's only so much fun to be had from "beating" the game. Instead, he munchkins to make silly concepts work, which not only fits in with the lackluster optimization skills of basically the entire rest of the group, but also lets him play silly characters that still work.
For those who read the previous spoiler, he played Dogar. In Pathfinder, he's played a self-buffing whip-using cleric who he quickly retired for being too strong (which was semi-intentional, since he wanted to annoy the DM); an evil alchemist with potions or infusions for any situation but few combat options beyond bombs and buffs; and a halfling rogue who specializes in jumping on top of enemies (which gives allies flanking bonuses).

I'm not going to call your kind of D&D "wrong". There are games which I enjoy optimizing, but TRPGs are not among them. I don't play TRPGs for the numbers games; I find VRPGs much more satisfying in that regard. I play TRPGs for the characters I can create, the characters the other players create, and the stories we tell along the way. This is also a legitimate way to play D&D, but it's a fundamentally different game from the kind you like to play. It's not just "noobs" who don't bother with optimization; one of the guys at my table has been playing D&D since second edition, and he still doesn't care about charop, because he doesn't play a version of D&D where that matters.
If you're DMing a game where enemy wizards destroy underprepared characters as punishment for not grabbing the "right" immunities and whatnot, and they don't start consulting charop boards for advice on how to build uber-characters, it doesn't mean they're bad players. It means you're a bad DM, for either not communicating the kind of game you want to run or not running the game the players want to play. Possibly both, if you're as blind to other playstyles as your tone implies.

P.S. There's a lot you can do with spellcasting in 3.5 that you can't in 5e, and not all of it involves SoD abuse.

My player groups have wiped on far less than full t1 spellcasting out the ass, but while I may not necessarily be able to include such NPCs as direct competition to the players, I do get to include them in the world at large, so it's not such an issue. That said, while I very much disagree with the notion of "wipe them until they learn", if they do come across high OP enemies because of their own choices, that's when I don't hold back. For example, the last party wipe that occured for this reason happened because they party decided to rest in the middle of enemy territory so the party druid could regain spells since he'd decided mid session to retrain into a full druid, instead of multiclassing, but I told him he wouldn't get his max level spell slots back until he rested and prayed again, so.... well, they were ambushed that night, and ggwp.

Also, my players don't exclusively play mundanes, they play plenty of spellcaster characters, they just don't play them at t1/t2 or even sometimes even t3 level.

MeimuHakurei

2019-05-13, 04:32 AM

sorcererlover

2019-05-13, 07:02 AM

I am so glad I'm not in your group. My group actually does have a munchkin who could pull off that kind of stuff, but he doesn't want to because there's only so much fun to be had from "beating" the game. Instead, he munchkins to make silly concepts work, which not only fits in with the lackluster optimization skills of basically the entire rest of the group, but also lets him play silly characters that still work.
For those who read the previous spoiler, he played Dogar. In Pathfinder, he's played a self-buffing whip-using cleric who he quickly retired for being too strong (which was semi-intentional, since he wanted to annoy the DM); an evil alchemist with potions or infusions for any situation but few combat options beyond bombs and buffs; and a halfling rogue who specializes in jumping on top of enemies (which gives allies flanking bonuses).

I'm not going to call your kind of D&D "wrong". There are games which I enjoy optimizing, but TRPGs are not among them. I don't play TRPGs for the numbers games; I find VRPGs much more satisfying in that regard. I play TRPGs for the characters I can create, the characters the other players create, and the stories we tell along the way. This is also a legitimate way to play D&D, but it's a fundamentally different game from the kind you like to play. It's not just "noobs" who don't bother with optimization; one of the guys at my table has been playing D&D since second edition, and he still doesn't care about charop, because he doesn't play a version of D&D where that matters.
If you're DMing a game where enemy wizards destroy underprepared characters as punishment for not grabbing the "right" immunities and whatnot, and they don't start consulting charop boards for advice on how to build uber-characters, it doesn't mean they're bad players. It means you're a bad DM, for either not communicating the kind of game you want to run or not running the game the players want to play. Possibly both, if you're as blind to other playstyles as your tone implies.

P.S. There's a lot you can do with spellcasting in 3.5 that you can't in 5e, and not all of it involves SoD abuse.

There's a difference between a munchkin going mailman or multiple turning pool DMM:Persistent Spell CoDzilla and completely ruining the game by one shotting everything while being unkillable, and a person being unable to play a wizard that just chooses the best spells because his mundane players are so bad at the game even after years of playing that they can't handle even one spellcaster. And since 99% of d&d is related to spellcasting, they cut 99% of the game off.

If you don't want to TPK then annoy the bejeezus out of them with Evard's Black Tentacles and Solid Fog until they learn that Freedom of Movement is Mandatory before moving on to Enervation and Charm Monster and then to maximized delayed blast fireball and polar ray.

RoboEmperor

2019-05-13, 07:22 AM

My artificer who can bring a Colossal Object to life at level 2.

I like big robots annihilating fantasy monsters. Makes me feel like "i'm a better monster maker than you".

Malphegor

2019-05-13, 08:52 AM

My artificer who can bring a Colossal Object to life at level 2.

I like big robots annihilating fantasy monsters. Makes me feel like "i'm a better monster maker than you".

wait, that's possible that low? I was looking at a character focused on animating objects once, the best I could see was via an urban druid since they're basically built to animate all the things at all times.

Do artificers get anything do it better?

RoboEmperor

2019-05-13, 09:07 AM

wait, that's possible that low? I was looking at a character focused on animating objects once, the best I could see was via an urban druid since they're basically built to animate all the things at all times.

Do artificers get anything do it better?

There's a +1 weapon special ability called Flying (Magic of Faerun) that turns any weapon into an animated object. So just cast Personal Weapon Augmentation on Colossal weapon and you got yourself a Colossal Animated Object.

You can do this at level 1 but I go cleric1/artificer1 as an Illumian to persist the Personal Weapon Augmentation.

Blue Jay

2019-05-13, 10:13 AM

GreatWyrmGold

2019-05-13, 01:20 PM

I was looking up sharn to see what all the fuss was about, and the Eberron city came up before the Faerûn aberration (https://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/block/Sharn). Which was only mildly confusing, as I was about pretty sure the community hadn't found rules to use an entire city as a PC.
But, I can now see where people would say they're overpowered, what with the permanent haste and the caster levels and multiple spells per round and stuff. That sounds...concerning.

There are a lot of really weird monsters that I'd like to try playing sometime.
See if you can convince your DM to use Inevitability's level adjustments (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518086-The-LA-assignment-archive).

Grey Guard

2019-05-13, 01:28 PM

There are a lot of really weird monsters that I'd like to try playing sometime.

An ooze. Specifically, an ochre jelly or a black pudding: something that's just a straight-up, bog-standard giant puddle of slime.

A hecatoncheires that looks just like the one from Epic Level Handbook.

A swarm of itty-bitty fairies, like a shimmerling swarm, but not so "blind-everyting-within-300-feet"-ish.

An ethereal filcher.

See if you can convince your DM to use Inevitability's level adjustments.

I really like what Inevitability is doing with that little project. I also am a big fan of Oslecamo's project to make monster classes playable.

Though, Oslecamo's work has shown itself to be awfully contentious on what people find balanced in a monster class. I personally like most of it.

ottdmk

2019-05-14, 04:52 PM

Oh, there's too many. :smallbiggrin: In our current, long-running campaign, I started off playing a Spellthief. I'd probably still be playing him if he hadn't died twice and I just couldn't face replaying 7th level again.

My backup characters include a CA Ninja and a 2nd Level Bard/10th Level Paladin. Oh, and a Soulborn that I rebuilt using the homebrew in my .sig. I'd probably still play him straight from Magic of Incarnum though.

Now admittedly, my current guy is a 12th level character/11th level spellcaster. And my fourth backup is probably the most optimized I've ever made.
(My fourth backup is a 12th level Diplomonster Half-Elven Bard.)

Still, I'm the type of guy who looks at the CW Samurai or a PHB Monk and thinks, "You know, that could be fun..." :smallbiggrin:

jintoya

2019-05-15, 10:13 AM

2 pages, and nobody has said "a monk".... Until just now

RaiKirah

2019-05-15, 02:23 PM

Master of Masks has always really intrigued me, but it's kinda just straight garbage :/

Eldariel

2019-05-15, 02:28 PM

2 pages, and nobody has said "a monk".... Until just now

Well, "Monk" as a character option is hardly unplayable since the same character space is more or less filled by Tashalatora Psychic Warrior-or-Ardent, Unarmed Swordsage and Sacred Fist, all of which are solid. It's just the "Monk" class that's kinda meh. But the character archetype is one of the better presented ones.

Bavarian itP

2019-05-15, 03:26 PM

I want a Skald who preserves all of the oral traditions of their people, respectful of the past and preserving tradition for the next generation.

Most historical skalds were descendent from the aristocracy, and perform is on the aristocrat's list. Aristocrats can be lawful. Problem solved.

PoeticallyPsyco

2019-05-15, 03:43 PM

I think this already got mentioned, but the lycanthrope template is really not great for players. And much as I love Shifters, the penalty to intelligence and charisma limits the number of builds they're good in.

Roninblack

2019-05-15, 09:04 PM

Lorddenorstrus

2019-05-16, 12:19 AM

My group fixed monk by making it full bab, now they're actually pretty impressive.

As far as unplayable, I've always enjoyed the mental image of the warshaper. You prepare spells for an hour, and i turn into a giant rolling ball of tentacles that have colossal reach and hundreds of attacks

No offense, but full BAB wouldn't even put Monk in tier 3. So, it's still fairly trashcan. There's a reason that stuff like Tashalatora Psychic warriors do the job better. Wizards realized this which is why feats like that.. that give everything unique that is Monk onto another existing class at only the cost of a feat exist in the first place. So people can achieve the goal of the monk playstyle. With out being so weak that a generic summoned minion from a caster isn't replacing you.

Bavarian itP

2019-05-16, 12:26 AM

No offense, but full BAB wouldn't even put Monk in tier 3.

"Not even in tier 3" describes every mundane melee class in 3.5.

Roninblack

2019-05-16, 12:36 AM

No offense.

None taken, it works for us, but we have a weird dynamic of high and low op characters, house rules aren't for everyone after all

Luccan

2019-05-16, 12:39 AM

Monk has some cool class features (the teleporting one, the self-heal, and the speak all languages one). The problem is you get them way too late and they do far too little. I'd play a monk if the features were more usable, even without a full BAB (I mean, they should totally have a full BAB and more skill points, given how MAD they are, but what are you gonna do).

Malphegor

2019-05-16, 04:14 AM

I may be misunderstanding how levels from racial HD works (I think my Dm would let me waive the HD levels for class levels) so this'd maybe have an additional 2 levels before it got started.
Basically I planned once to play a pseudodragon who wanted to be a real dragon.

Maw the Pseudodragon build
“I am Maw. Though I am small, fear me! Rawr! I am fire that burns your soup! I am the little death! I am the darkness sitting on your head! I AM MAW!”

Level 1: LA level
*Level 1 Feat: is there one?
Level 2: LA Level
Level 3: Level Adjustment level
*Level 3 feat: ? is there one?
Level 4: Dragonfire Adept 1 *Least Invocations unlocked!*
1 Invocation known: Endure Exposure- entire party is immune to my breath weapon and get the benefits of a endure elements spell.
Level 5: Drgonfire Adept 2
*Level 2 Dragonfire Adept Breath Effect: Frost Breath- can do a breath attack that isn’t going to set the world on fire.
Level 6: Dragonfire Adept 3
2nd invocation known: Magic Insight- Provide party with benefits of Identify at will.
*Level 6 feat: Lucky Start- accumulate luck rerolls, can now reroll my initiative checks
Level 7: Dragonfire Adept 4
Level 8: Dragonfire Adept 5
*Level 5 Dragonfire Adept Breath Effect: Slow Breath- applies Slow in breath range
Level 9: Dragonfire Adept 6 *Lesser Invocations unlocked*
Invocation to learn: Charm- at will charm monster.
*Level 9 feat: Make your own luck- can now use luck rerolls to reroll all skill checks immediately. Basically the plan here is to be helpful with knowledge checks since DA get all the knowledge, plus maybe UMD rolls because oh my god I have like so little actual magics
Level 10: Dragonfire Adept 7
Level 11: Dragonfire Adept 8
Invocation to learn: Voracious Dispelling- at will dispel magic
Level 12: Dragonfire Adept 9
*Level 12 feat: Entangling Exhalation- can now entangle creatures with my breath weapon and get damage for 1d4 rounds
Level 13: Dragonfire Adept 10
*Level 10 Dragonfire Adept Breath Effect: Sleep Breath: can make weak enemies sleep
Level 14: Dragonfire Adept 11 *Greater invocations unlocked*
Invocation to learn: Baleful Geas- standard action version of Geas/Quest
Level 15: Dragonfire Adept 12
*Level 15 Feat: Exhaled Barrier- can now create a 10x10 opaque force field out of our breath attacks.
Level 16: Dragonfire Adept 13
Invocation to learn: Chilling fog- solid fog slows targets, and deals damage.
Level 17: Dragonfire Adept 14
Level 18: Dragonfire Adept 15
*Level 15 Dragonfire Adept Breath Effect: Force Breath maybe???
*Level 18 Feat: Extra Invocation (take an extra invocation up to one below what our max is. Take the Lesser Invocation, Walk Unseen, so we have at-will invisibility*
Level 19: Dragonfire Adept 16 *Dark Invocations unlocked!*
Invocation to learn: Energy Immunity- at will, no longer get damage from 1 energy type, changeable at will.
Level 20: Dragonfire Adept 17

I think more than anything else this would potentially be a very dull character to play mechanically.

Not being a humanoid shape would be a pain, having almost-warlock-but-not-warlock stuff doesn't really have that much items that help it afaik, and possibly being unable to talk verbally, and solely communicate via magic telepathy might cause more problems than it helps maybe.

Would be fun to roleplay duping commonfolk into believing I'm a 'familiar' of a wizard who really has an ACF instead of a familiar whilst being a fully fledged character myself though. Like being the Brain to someone's Inspector Gadget.

Yael

2019-05-16, 05:47 AM

2 pages, and nobody has said "a monk".... Until just now

I've played monk barbarians, they work really well, if you consider one of those two classes not in the actual build. :smalltongue:

An Illithid, or any non-elan aberration for that matter. They are just usually bad for their RHD for the appropiate party ECL, or their LA is way high (if there's any).

Dimers

2019-05-16, 01:14 PM

I've always wanted to play a crysmal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/crysmal.htm). They're adorable, and right from the get-go, you have a clear motivation for adventuring: makin' babies! But those RHD really don't give you squat.

mabriss lethe

2019-05-16, 01:28 PM

Deepwyrm half drow vermin trainer starting as marshal with the draconic aura substitution acf. (One of the few ways to meet the prereqs for vermin trainer out the gate as a level 1 character.) Draconic aura sub helps with the problem of standard marshal auras not affecting vermin.

I've had a few build stubs laying around but never had a table to play it at.

Another that I've wanted to play, purely for the challenge of it is a phb only monk.

SLOTHRPG95

2019-05-16, 02:26 PM

An Illithid, or any non-elan aberration for that matter. They are just usually bad for their RHD for the appropiate party ECL, or their LA is way high (if there's any).

Yeah even if you play with them having innate psionics as a Psion of level (RHD+1) instead of their SLAs, that +7 LA is no joke. You're manifesting as a 14th-level Psion when Wizards can Gate or Time Stop four to six times per day. For that matter, Gith (of both types) get shortchanged by their LA, and the Blue does as well. Sure, LA +1 isn't the end of the world (even w/o buyoff) but it's not like everyone would be clamoring to make Blue Psions otherwise. These are all cool races, but (to varying degrees) not playable.

Oh, speaking of psionics, the Metamind. Using it naively, you end up with fewer equivalent PP/day than if you just stuck pure Psion, and that's supposed to be its whole schtick. And on top of that you're losing five levels of manifesting.

SimonMoon6

2019-05-16, 04:01 PM

RoboEmperor

2019-05-16, 04:26 PM

RedMage125

2019-05-16, 05:35 PM

For me, it's the Duelist. Super awesome concept. I love the idea. In practice? Bad AC, bad damage, bad bonus abilities. There's really nothing to like about it. It sucks.

I'll have to take a bit of time to think about mine, but this surprised me.

I know Duelist is considered subpar as a whole, but you can get excellent AC with one. As a thought experiment once when I was on watch several years ago, I built a level 20 character (with lvl 20 WBL) for AC, and I got a Duelist into the 60s for AC (with an additional +8 vs against Attacks of Opportunity), when fighting defensively. I believe it was Swashbuckler 6/Rogue4/Duelist 10. Of course it had Daring Outlaw and Defensive Duelist feats, and was pretty gear-dependent (because I focused on AC-improving items), but it got pretty crazy. With books and stat items to improve DEX and INT both to 30, fighting defensively adds his Duelist level to AC (and also adds an extra +1d6 to his damage), Ring of Protection +5, Off-Hand was a +5 Defensive Dagger (all going to AC, you only lose Duelist benefits if you attack with a weapon in your off-hand, you can still hold one). And since the character was so deeply invested in being able to move to maintain his AC (4 levels of Rogue got him Uncanny Dodge), I also gave him a Ring of Freedom of Movement. He also had a Monk's Belt (and I believ his WIS mod was a +2), and an Ioun Stone for AC. That's something like a 64 or so to AC, not counting the Dodge thing that Swashbucklers get. And a Duelist 10 with Defensive Duelist does 4d6 damage fighting with a rapier (not counting when he gets in his 5d6 Sneak Attacks).

That is a level 20 build, though. getting such a character to that point might be a lot less satisfying.

Luccan

2019-05-16, 06:47 PM

Hows that any different from a spellcaster that only prepares polymorph spells and nothing else?

There's also the "why play barbarian when you can play spellcaster?"

Don't think of yourself as a spellcaster. Think of yourself as a mundane and you can play MoMF without feeling like you're gimping yourself. You're a fighter who is forced to get spellcaster levels for a prerequisite.

The comparison is not "why play a barbarian". It's "why play a barbarian when you could play a barbarian with full casting who can continue to cast and concentrate while Raging?" One is mechanically superior to the other. That doesn't bother some people, but in the case of the druid choosing MoMF is choosing to play a mechanically worse character than you could play.

RoboEmperor

2019-05-16, 08:06 PM

The comparison is not "why play a barbarian". It's "why play a barbarian when you could play a barbarian with full casting who can continue to cast and concentrate while Raging?" One is mechanically superior to the other. That doesn't bother some people, but in the case of the druid choosing MoMF is choosing to play a mechanically worse character than you could play.

That's metagaming. As the level you take the PrC, your character wouldn't know whether spellcasting is superior to shapechanging so him picking shapechanging (incorrectly) makes total sense.

Also intentionally weakening your spellcaster is something most people enjoy because, you know, ZOMG T1 OP MUNCHKING LOLZ. And by most people I mean people who don't play spellcasters themselves.

I'm not that knowledgeable about MoMF, but if it makes you the defacto best polymorph gish then I'd take it because i rather be the best at my shtick than be a generic god moder. It's why I prefer sorcerers over wizards, be the best at the one thing rather than be good at everything.

SLOTHRPG95

2019-05-16, 09:23 PM

I'll have to take a bit of time to think about mine, but this surprised me.

I know Duelist is considered subpar as a whole, but you can get excellent AC with one. As a thought experiment once when I was on watch several years ago, I built a level 20 character (with lvl 20 WBL) for AC, and I got a Duelist into the 60s for AC (with an additional +8 vs against Attacks of Opportunity), when fighting defensively. I believe it was Swashbuckler 6/Rogue4/Duelist 10. Of course it had Daring Outlaw and Defensive Duelist feats, and was pretty gear-dependent (because I focused on AC-improving items), but it got pretty crazy. With books and stat items to improve DEX and INT both to 30, fighting defensively adds his Duelist level to AC (and also adds an extra +1d6 to his damage), Ring of Protection +5, Off-Hand was a +5 Defensive Dagger (all going to AC, you only lose Duelist benefits if you attack with a weapon in your off-hand, you can still hold one). And since the character was so deeply invested in being able to move to maintain his AC (4 levels of Rogue got him Uncanny Dodge), I also gave him a Ring of Freedom of Movement. He also had a Monk's Belt (and I believ his WIS mod was a +2), and an Ioun Stone for AC. That's something like a 64 or so to AC, not counting the Dodge thing that Swashbucklers get. And a Duelist 10 with Defensive Duelist does 4d6 damage fighting with a rapier (not counting when he gets in his 5d6 Sneak Attacks).

That is a level 20 build, though. getting such a character to that point might be a lot less satisfying.

If you're really willing to sacrifice damage output, you can break past AC 80 as a Duelist at 20th level when fighting defensively. It's not good, sure, since everyone can just ignore you and your saves aren't necessarily great either. But yeah, Duelists don't have bad AC.

Seerow

2019-05-16, 09:36 PM

If you're really willing to sacrifice damage output, you can break past AC 80 as a Duelist at 20th level when fighting defensively. It's not good, sure, since everyone can just ignore you and your saves aren't necessarily great either. But yeah, Duelists don't have bad AC.

Agree with all this, but still agree with the op that duelist is essentially unplayable. The class does Grant basically +20 AC over twenty levels but the core concept has so little support it doesn't mean much. (Also by the time you're really seeing that payoff ac is often mostly irrelevant).

GreatWyrmGold

2019-05-16, 11:46 PM

Deepwyrm half drow...
I initially assumed this was a deepwyrm (presumably some Underdark lesser dragon) with a half-drow template applied. I was surprised that such a template existed! Drow don't seem nearly as interfertile as humans are.
Then I realized that it was probably the other way around, and wondered if there was a half-human template anywhere.

Yeah even if you play with them having innate psionics as a Psion of level (RHD+1) instead of their SLAs, that +7 LA is no joke. You're manifesting as a 14th-level Psion when Wizards can Gate or Time Stop four to six times per day. For that matter, Gith (of both types) get shortchanged by their LA, and the Blue does as well. Sure, LA +1 isn't the end of the world (even w/o buyoff) but it's not like everyone would be clamoring to make Blue Psions otherwise. These are all cool races, but (to varying degrees) not playable.
Inevitability's LA-reassignment project (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518086-The-LA-assignment-archive) is going through the XPH right now. Once the gith and psillithids are evaluated, see if your DM lets you use those LAs.
Assuming you can find a 3.5 DM, of course.

That's metagaming. As the level you take the PrC, your character wouldn't know whether spellcasting is superior to shapechanging so him picking shapechanging (incorrectly) makes total sense.
What are you talking about? If you trained as a druid among other druids in a world that has druids, you know what druids can do. You know what their spellcasting can do and you know what their wild-shape can do. You don't have numbers, but the power of T1 casters isn't quantitative, it's qualitative. It's not the numbers behind what they can do, it's what they can do.

I'm not that knowledgeable about MoMF, but if it makes you the defacto best polymorph gish then I'd take it because i rather be the best at my shtick than be a generic god moder.
I can't claim to have ever played one, but the MoMF's main gimmick is getting new creature types to turn into, and getting bigger/smaller forms faster. They also get to talk while wild-shaped, get extra daily uses of WS, WS as a move action a few levels in, eventually gain their form's extraordinary special qualities, and their capstone grants immunity to transmutation and aging. That's basically it. No spellcasting advancement, no special attacks, no supernatural anything. I thought it was cool when I was in middle school, but now I don't see the appeal in being able to turn into a dragon that can't breathe fire after 10 levels of investment.

RoboEmperor

2019-05-17, 12:15 AM

I can't claim to have ever played one, but the MoMF's main gimmick is getting new creature types to turn into, and getting bigger/smaller forms faster. They also get to talk while wild-shaped, get extra daily uses of WS, WS as a move action a few levels in, eventually gain their form's extraordinary special qualities, and their capstone grants immunity to transmutation and aging. That's basically it. No spellcasting advancement, no special attacks, no supernatural anything. I thought it was cool when I was in middle school, but now I don't see the appeal in being able to turn into a dragon that can't breathe fire after 10 levels of investment.

Grab Assume Supernatural Ability. You can breath fire.

Dexam

2019-05-17, 01:17 AM

Basically I planned once to play a pseudodragon who wanted to be a real dragon.

I actually (briefly) played a character like this once - Blaze, a Pseudodragon Dragonfire Adept.

The DM waived +2 LA for all PCs to allow for unusual races and/or templates, so with the 2 RHD I was still 3 class levels behind the other PCs. Apart from some very minor fire damage and debuffing thanks to Entangling Exhalation, he was not particularly useful in combat (though he did manage to sleep-poison-sting an enemy arcane caster once). He also had the Mindsight feat, so he was an okay scout and watch dog dragon.

But goodness me, was it a fun character to roleplay! It was exactly awesome as you would expect a flying, fire-breathing cat-lizard with a penchant for shiny things, delusions of grandeur, and some mild pyromania would be. :smallbiggrin:

Crake

2019-05-17, 02:56 AM

For me, it's Master of Many Forms. And before someone says that MoMF isn't unplayable, I accept that for some people, it is perfectly playable. However, I just can't see giving up phenomenal cosmic power (spell-casting) just to change shapes a bit better than a normal druid.

And that's one of the things I really have an issue with in the various D&D games. I'd like to have a character who specializes in shape-changing, but why bother when you can have a character who is good at shape-changing *and* also has full spell-casting?

On the flip side, on the "so good it's unplayable," I would add Planar Shepherd. There's no way that I could ever even ask a DM to let me play one. They're just way too good. But I want a class that gives me the power to turn into, say, a demon (and not just for cosmetic reasons... for actual power-gain reasons... and not with wimpy power gains like, say, Acolyte of the Skin). Planar Shepherd would be a great class for that... but it does too much other good stuff, without taking away any of a druid's normal powers.

For me, the best entry into MoMF is actually wildshaping ranger. You get full bab, d10 HD, and more skills for the first 5 levels, as well as whatever ACFs of ranger you end up taking, and the downsides of ranger wildshaping are completely rendered moot by entering MoMF, because it overrides the limitations.

That way you also don't have to feel like you're giving up spellcasting, because as a ranger you practically had no spellcasting to begin with, and if you take one of the spell-less variants, you literally had none anyway.

CactusAir

2019-05-17, 03:27 AM

I recently put way too much time into building a "Tour Guide" character who uses the Levitative Transport (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/feats/levitative-transport/) feat to cart around his "tour group."

It's actually mechanically quite potent, but with enough shenanigans that no DM is likely to permit this.

Since it's a gestalt build using PF and 3.5 content - including Initiate of the Sevenfold veil.

(The synergy between Warding and Levitative Transport is nice tho.)

Troacctid

2019-05-17, 03:27 AM

Ooh, I've got another one: Master of the Secret Sound. The capstone is amazing, but slogging through the rest of the class to get to it is just...bleh.

For me, the best entry into MoMF is actually wildshaping ranger. You get full bab, d10 HD, and more skills for the first 5 levels, as well as whatever ACFs of ranger you end up taking, and the downsides of ranger wildshaping are completely rendered moot by entering MoMF, because it overrides the limitations.

That way you also don't have to feel like you're giving up spellcasting, because as a ranger you practically had no spellcasting to begin with, and if you take one of the spell-less variants, you literally had none anyway.
I think the best entry is totem druid because it gets wild shape at level 1, allowing you to take your first level of MoMF at level 2.

ShurikVch

2019-05-17, 03:58 AM

Anything with "ninja" in its name. The base class, Ninja Spy, Shadow Sun Ninja, so on. These classes tend to have cool abilities that are way too limited/gained too late in comparison to spell or maneuvers.How about the Ninja of the Crescent Moon (Sword and Fist)?
"Always Sneaky" comes online late, but it's one form of stealth which is neither detectable by magic, nor ruined by anti-magic

Honestly, you could throw most of the classes in CW here. I loved that book, but most of its offerings were kind of terrible in retrospect. I mean, this is the book that gave us Spell-less Rangers and Paladins.On the other hand, that book gave us Hulking Hurler - one of the strongest non-magical PrC ever; and Hunter of the Dead got ability to kill a Lich without a need to search for phylactery; Exotic Weapon Master may be good for TWF; Bear Warrior...

A swarm of itty-bitty fairies, like a shimmerling swarm, but not so "blind-everyting-within-300-feet"-ish.How about the Sleeping Blossom Sprites (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20040718a)? (Still, no LA...)

An ethereal filcher.LA: +0 (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060224a)!

Master of Masks has always really intrigued me, but it's kinda just straight garbage :/Suboptimal? Yes.
But "straight garbage"? No.
Assassin persona mask: extra SA die! Is it bad?
Gladiator persona mask: instant proficiency with all the weapon may be worth a level...
Jester persona mask: competence bonus on Balance, Perform, Sleight of Hand, and Tumble checks - may be useful for some builds.
The thing is - to don't go up to the capstone, and leave it after a level or two

An Illithid, or any non-elan aberration for that matter. They are just usually bad for their RHD for the appropiate party ECL, or their LA is way high (if there's any).Daelkyr Half-Blood (Magic of Eberron) :smallwink:

EDIT:
For me, it's Master of Many Forms. And before someone says that MoMF isn't unplayable, I accept that for some people, it is perfectly playable. However, I just can't see giving up phenomenal cosmic power (spell-casting) just to change shapes a bit better than a normal druid.That's only in case if you entered as a Druid; you may qualify for MoMF by gaining Wild Shape from OA Shapeshifter, Abolisher (Lords of Madness), or Wild Monk (Dragon #324)

Alhallor

2019-05-17, 07:37 AM

Unarmed swordsage / Transmutation specialist will be the thing that I think give the most "Monk" feelings but my current group doesn't like DnD and even if they gave it a try, I fear they would feel that it would be too cheesy. ):

Other idea was a Juvenile red Dragon in a evil Group.

There was a Star Wars RP-game where I wanted to play as a member of an Alien race of very intelligent kinda big bunnies. Of course he had to be a Jedi, never was able to play him, though I still have the Charakter sheet.

And of course a Malkavian in a game where he could use the 8th Level Dementation ability to ignore everything that happens to him in a Scene.

"Oh by Kains beard look at my apartment, it looks like someone dropped a bomb there!"

mabriss lethe

2019-05-17, 08:28 AM

I initially assumed this was a deepwyrm (presumably some Underdark lesser dragon) with a half-drow template applied. I was surprised that such a template existed! Drow don't seem nearly as interfertile as humans are.

It's from.... Dragon magic I think(or dragonomicon, or something) they're effectively just half elves with the dragonblood subtype and a handful of SLAs. But they're still La+0, so it makes some drow specific stuff playable from level 1.

GreatWyrmGold

2019-05-17, 10:33 AM

Grab Assume Supernatural Ability. You can breath fire.
If that let you assume supernatural abilities from all your forms, sure, but IIRC it gives you one supernatural ability from one form.
MoMF gives you cool stuff, but it requires a lot of investment, and it requires more investment on top of that to get something remarkable out of that stuff. It's all the worse when you consider that, had you just gone straight druid, you would be just two levels away from casting shapechange, which is better in every way except duration (and 10 minutes per level, aka almost three hours at 17th level, is long enough for duration to almost be irrelevant).
MoMF still has some sizes and types they can't transform into, shapechange doesn't. You get extraordinary special qualities and attacks, and supernatural abilities, all of them for each form you transform into. And you can just keep changing shape literally as often as you like.
And this is on top of the 4-8th-level spells that the druid gets, and its own wild shape, and a better animal companion, and a bunch of other special features.

MoMF just has too many levels. Being able to wild shape into a dragon would be cool at level 10, even without a breath weapon. But half your build is too much for too little benefit. When you get down to it, you don't even get much stronger wild shapes; animals are fairly weak, HD for HD, but getting to turn into a magical beast without any magic isn't that much stronger. They mostly gain wild shape versatility, by missing out on the versatility offered by spellcasting.
It's not a bad class at heart, it's just diluted.

RoboEmperor

2019-05-17, 10:47 AM

If that let you assume supernatural abilities from all your forms, sure, but IIRC it gives you one supernatural ability from one form.

It gives you one supernatural ability from any form that has it. So if you grab Assume Supernatural Ability:Breath Weapon, you get the breath weapon of all of your forms.

RaiKirah

2019-05-17, 12:05 PM

Suboptimal? Yes.
But "straight garbage"? No.
Assassin persona mask: extra SA die! Is it bad?
Gladiator persona mask: instant proficiency with all the weapon may be worth a level...
Jester persona mask: competence bonus on Balance, Perform, Sleight of Hand, and Tumble checks - may be useful for some builds.
The thing is - to don't go up to the capstone, and leave it after a level or two

Sure, it has uses as a dip, but then you're not actually playing a Master of Masks. As a full 10 level build using it as the cornerstone of a build it's pretty terribad.

Dimers

2019-05-17, 01:42 PM

Oh, right, there's another unplayable: arcane swordsage. Ain't no DM gonna touch that nonsense. But it sounds fun to try.

SLOTHRPG95

2019-05-17, 02:44 PM

Agree with all this, but still agree with the op that duelist is essentially unplayable. The class does Grant basically +20 AC over twenty levels but the core concept has so little support it doesn't mean much. (Also by the time you're really seeing that payoff ac is often mostly irrelevant).

Yeah, no, I'm firmly on the "Duelists are not good" side, along with pretty much everyone else. I was just pointing out that you can get stupidly high AC with them, enough so that even the Tarrasque's primary attack only hits you on a nat 20. But then again, you're doing pitifully small amounts of damage, and a single Will-based save-or-suck puts you out of the fight in two seconds flat.

Inevitability's LA-reassignment project (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518086-The-LA-assignment-archive) is going through the XPH right now. Once the gith and psillithids are evaluated, see if your DM lets you use those LAs.
Assuming you can find a 3.5 DM, of course.

Yeah no, the only 3.5 DM I can find is myself, and I already let players play as a Blue w/ no LA, or as a Gith w/ LA +1. I haven't had any players want to play a Mind Flayer, but if they did I'm sure I wouldn't stick them with a +7 LA, since that's just stupid. However, if one of my players ever wants to step up and run a campaign, I'll make sure to point that out to them. And then eat their brains!

GreatWyrmGold

2019-05-18, 02:28 PM

It gives you one supernatural ability from any form that has it. So if you grab Assume Supernatural Ability:Breath Weapon, you get the breath weapon of all of your forms.
That makes the feat (and MoMF) a bit better. I'd still argue that MoMF is strictly worse than sticking around in Druid until you get shapechange, barring some specific trick that requires getting a specific (set of) form's special abilities which doesn't benefit from spellcasting.

Bavarian itP

2019-05-18, 02:31 PM

ShurikVch

2019-05-18, 03:33 PM

What's all this talk? Everyone knows that MoMF is a WS Ranger prestige class. :smallwink:You wanted to say - Wild Monk?.. :smallamused:

GreatWyrmGold

2019-05-18, 03:34 PM

What's all this talk? Everyone knows that MoMF is a WS Ranger prestige class. :smallwink:
I will freely admit that I don't know enough about wild shape rangers to evaluate how useful the MoMF class is to them. My intuition is that it would turn them into basically the same thing as a druidic MoMF, but with several levels of ranger features instead of five levels of druid. Better BaB, favored enemies, and a fighting style that's useless while transformed versus...what a druid has.
Granted, it's not really fair to compare core primary-martials to core primary-spellcasters...so the opportunity cost is definitely lower, I'll give you that.

Kaleph

2019-05-18, 03:37 PM

I will freely admit that I don't know enough about wild shape rangers to evaluate how useful the MoMF class is to them. My intuition is that it would turn them into basically the same thing as a druidic MoMF, but with several levels of ranger features instead of five levels of druid. Better BaB, favored enemies, and a fighting style that's useless while transformed versus...what a druid has.
Granted, it's not really fair to compare core primary-martials to core primary-spellcasters...so the opportunity cost is definitely lower, I'll give you that.

You lose combat style, you gain wild shape and fast movement.

Maat Mons

2019-05-18, 03:53 PM

RoboEmperor

2019-05-18, 04:11 PM

That makes the feat (and MoMF) a bit better. I'd still argue that MoMF is strictly worse than sticking around in Druid until you get shapechange, barring some specific trick that requires getting a specific (set of) form's special abilities which doesn't benefit from spellcasting.

Each level is like 1-2 months of play so saying that you'll play a build you'll enjoy more after 17 months of play instead of from the start is not a reason. I sacrifice a great deal endgame power in all of my builds just to get my shtick online as early as possible.

If you're happy with just wild shape until level 17 then that's great. If not then you go MoMF so you can enjoy 80% of the game instead of just the last 20%

Ultimate endgame power does not matter. It's about enjoying your character as long as possible. Otherwise go Planar Shephred and get free wishes.

Seerow

2019-05-18, 04:17 PM

Okay, yes. A Druid / Master of Many Forms is worse than a straight Druid. And a Wild Shape Ranger (or Wild Monk) / Master of Many Forms is also worse than a Druid. But is that really sufficient basis to classify it as "unplayable?" (Which, bear in mind, is what this thread is about.) Lots of stuff is worse than Druid.

We had a player who brought a Divine minion who went into master of many forms. That character wound up getting subbed out relatively quickly for sucking the fun out of the game. Free action at will wildshaping into basically whatever is ridiculous.

Momf wildshape ranger I imagine is only strong, but absolutely still playable.

StevenC21

2019-05-18, 07:45 PM

Each level is like 1-2 months of play

This is not the case for a great many groups.

JoshuaZ

2019-05-18, 09:19 PM

Starbuck_II

2019-05-19, 12:55 AM

It depends on what sort of table you're at, but I've found that giving a Hexblade the same casting progression as a Bard and allowing them casting in Medium armor w/o costing a feat can do the trick. It makes them more of an actual hexer with enough spells to back up their limited uses of their class abilities, and it makes them less MAD by de-prioritizing dexterity.

I love it so simple yet to elegant.
Do you change the Curse to more uses or get it back if target succeeds as well (common fix so curious)?

My change was this below: yours is simpler.

Hexblade Unchained:
Duskblade spellcasting/day and known (but Cha based);
Curse 1/hour. Increases in use to 2/hr at 5th and every 4 levels after. Penalty -2 attk, weapon damage, ability, skill, and saves for 1 hour. A successful save by the target reduces the penalties to -1 and cuts the duration to just one minute. A cursed hex can by ended prematurely by any effect that can remove a curse.

Hexwarrior: May use cha for hit and damage for weapons. Max 1 bonus + ½ Hexblade level.

Greater Curse: At 7th, the penalty of the curse is increased to -4 2 attk, weapon damage, ability, skill, and saves for 1 hour. A successful save by the target reduces the penalties to -2 and cuts the duration to just one minute.

Curse Mastery at 2nd: +1 DC Curses, every 4 levels.

Arcane Resistance: At 2nd, Cha to Saves vs spell/spell-like.

Mettle at 3rd

Scourge (Su): At 3rd level and every 3 levels thereafter (6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, 18th) a hexblade can choose one additional penalty or condition to apply to a target of his curse, chosen from the following list: ability and skill checks, armor class, fatigued, movement (reduced by 5ft. for each point of curse penalty), shaken, sickened. Targets that pass their save against a hexblade's curse still suffer scourge conditions when engaging the hexblade; the condition immediately fades when engaging targets other than the hexblade.
At 9th level the hexblade adds the following scourges to the list of those that can selected: bleed (equal to twice curse penalty), caster level, confused, damage reduction, DC of the target’s special abilities, energy resistances (applies to all), exhausted, frightened, nauseated, saving throws.
At 15th level the hexblade adds the following scourges to the list of those that can be selected: blinded, deafened, paralyzed, spell save DC, stunned (1d4 rounds, then staggered for the curses duration).

Familiar at 4th

Malice and Misfortune (Ex): At 6th level, the hexblade has taken to his blade just as intimately as he has his magic. Fusing the two together, the hexblade performs a violent stream of attacks at the cost of accuracy. The hexblade's finesse is enchanced by the spiteful link between him and his enemy. Acting on this malice, the hexblade skillfully executes a series of blows, increases his number of attacks by 1 by imposes a -2 penalty to hit. This increases by 1 every 6 levels (2 at 12th).

Luckpool: Learns a new method to use his curses by changing luck
Recharges by 1:
You reduce an enemy to 0 hp, or an enemy adjacent to you drops to 0 hp.
Deeds:
Healing Curse: Cursed target dies, heal Hexblae level + Cha
Cursed Critical: Any attack roll is a critical increased by 1.
Lethal Curse: Bonus damage to a cursed target by Hexblade level for 1 minute with every strike.
Armor Hex: Target of curse attempts to hit you, you may roll a d6, on a 5 or higher, it misses instead.
Improved Armor Hex: Target of curse attempts to hit you, you may roll a d6, on a 3 or higher, it misses instead.

Cursed Blade-Any creature injured by the weapon must make a Will save (DC 10 + ½ the Witchblade’s level + the Witchblade’s Charisma modifier) or suffer a cursed wound. The cursed wound cannot be healed until the curse has removed via a remove curse, break enchantment, or similar effect. All creature’s injured by the weapon during the round the cursed blade is active must save versus this effect, and the cursed wound damage stacks.
Dispelling Strike: whenever the Hexblade hits an opponent in melee, and that opponent has one or more magical effects currently active on their person, the Hexblade can expend 2 points from his hex pool to trigger a targeted dispel magic on his opponent. Unlike the normal dispel magic spell, the dispelling hex does not have a cap on the Hexblade’s caster level.
Martial Mojo: The hexblade may substitute her Charisma for any other ability score when determining the save DC of a maneuver from one of her hexblade disciplines she is initiating against an opponent afflicted by her Curse. In addition, she adds one-half her Charisma modifier (rounded down) to her hitpoints gained at each level (retroactive).

I like the fallen Druid archetype: The Blighter. I love the idea, but it is pretty bad statistically.

My fix for it is changing requirements and abilities: Change requirements as they are too high.
Blighter:
Prereq: 2nd level spells, +3 BAB

1st: Wild Shape (the duration for blightshape is 1 hour per the blighter's level + his druid level , increases for uses/day but uses skeleton template on animal forms, 4th zombie forms [toughness adds temp hps], 5th large, 9th huge), Deforestation (1/day, must pray to regain spells after using this to cast spells, kills all non-sentient plant life in 20 ft radius), Defiler (like arcane casters, see below) , spellcaster +1+ 1/ 2 class levels, Spontaneous SNA with skeleton template
Blight Shape: Type changes to undead
Natural armor bonus of +0 (Tiny animal), +2 (Small), +4 (medium or Large), +6 (huge),
+2 Dexterity, no Constitution score or Zombie: +4 Str, no Con, -2 Dex
Immunity to cold
Damage reduction 5/bludgeoning or Zombie: 5/slashing
Cannot be turned or rebuked

2nd level: Blightfire: Each use can be 10 ft spread 20 ft range or 20 ft burst, 5d6 + 1/class level fire (double versus objects), Reflex ½ save, DC is 10 + blighter’s class level + blighter’s Wis modifier, every 1d4 rounds. And ignites flammable objects it touches. Sustenance: no longer needs food/water.
3rd: Speak with Dead animls: at will, Forest Fear (Su): Starting at 3rd level, the destructive force that the blighter has accepted into himself begins to portray itself in other ways. As a blighter moves, plants bend to avoid him. He may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at his normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. However, thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion still affect her. In addition, plant creatures take a -4 morale penalty to attack the blighter.

4th: Spontaneous with Zombie template, Contagious Touch (Su): Starting at 4th level, a blighter may spend a move action to activate this ability. The next time the blighter takes damage from a natural melee weapon, or successfully deals damage with a natural melee weapon, the creature that attacked him or that he attacked is subject to a contagion spell (the DC of this effect is 10 + 1/2 the blighter's HD + the blighter's Wis modifier). When a blighter spends his move action, he must also choose which disease to inflict.

At 5th level, Blightfire sets fire to area when Blight Fire hits it. The area the ability is used stays on fire for 1d4+1 rounds, Blighters are immune to this damage. Any creature starting turn in those areas must roll a Reflex ½ DC equal to Blightfire or take 1d6 fire damage each round. Any character that takes damage is catch on fire as Catch on Fire rules in SRD. Desolate Tracks (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a blighter begins to destroy the environment around themselves without even noticing. They wither plants and leave scorch marks in the earth (yes, extraordinary scorch marks). The survival DC for any attempts to track them is takes a -6 modifier.

If they wish, a blighter may move at half speed and increase their destruction, leaving a charred line with a width equal to their body width along the ground, called a charnel path. If a blighter makes a closed shape with a charnel path, and repeats the path once per day for a week, and then uses deforestation in the enclosed area, the whole area is subject to the deforestation effect. The blighter may only use this for one hours (600 rounds) per day.

6th: Animate Dead Animal: 1/day Animate Dead for free.

7th: Meditation of Death (Su): Starting at 7th level, a blighter can choose to spend a move action in order to obtain a devastating safeguard. The next time the blighter takes damage from a natural melee weapon, or successfully deals damage with a natural melee weapon, the creature that attacked him or that he attacked is subject to a slay living spell (the DC of this effect is 10 + 1/2 the blighter's HD + the blighter's Wis modifier). When a blighter spends his move action, he can also choose to accompany Contagious Touch with this ability. In that case, the target would be subject to contagion if it succeeded on its save against slay living. He may not use this again until he has gone three consecutive turns without suffering damage, attacking, casting a spell, or being attacked.

8th: Plague: Uses contagion on all targets she chooses within a 20 ft radius, but DC of this effect is 12 + 1/2 the blighter's HD + the blighter's Wis modifier .
9th: You are the Desert: A blighter may use Desolate Tracks as much as he wants to in a day.
10th: Epidemic: By meditating for an hour, a blighter may cause the effect of Contagious Touch in a one mile radius, centered around him, and may designate one target/level within the area to be unaffected by the effect.
Blighter Spell List
Blighters choose their spells from the the list in Complete Divine, with extra spells added here.
0th: Bleed, detect magic, detect poison, flare, ghost sound, read magic, touch of fatigue
1st: bane, burning hands, curse water, decomposition, detect undead, doom, endure elements, inflict light wounds, invisibility to undead, ray of enfeeblement, Babau Slime (SpC), BLood Wind (SpC), Magic Fang, Produce Flame, Raging Flame (SpC), Rot of Ages (DrMagic) Silver Claws (BoED), Summon Undead I (SpC), Wall of Smoke (SpC)
2nd : chill metal, chill touch, darkness, death knell, fire trap, Flame blade, flaming sphere, Frigid touch, Frost Fall, heat metal, inflict moderate wounds, produce flame, resist elements, Stone call, warp wood, Align Fang (SpC), Countermoon (SpC), Creeping Cold (CoDi, SpC), Dessicate (Sand), Drifts of the Shalm (ash only) (PHBII), Halo of Sand (Sand), Heartfire (SpC), Summon Undead II (SpC), Defoliate,
3rd: Ash Storm, Burst of nettles, Call Lightning, contagion, deeper darkness, desecrate, diminish plants, dispel magic, Heatstroke, Hurricane Blast, Ice Spears, inflict serious wounds, poison, protection from elements, stinking cloud, vampiric touch, Vengeful Comets, Arctic Forst (Forst), Crumble (SpC), Blinding Spittle (SpC)*, Dehydrate (SpC), Haboob (Sand), Heatstroke (SpC), Hypothermia (SpC), Infestation of Maggots (CoDi, SpC), Greater Magic Fang, Junglerazer (SpC), Summon Undead III (SpC),
4th:, animate dead, antiplant shell, Ball Lightning, Blast Wall, blight, Cone of Cold , death ward, flame strike, inflict critical wounds, obsidian flow, repel vermin, rusting grasp, transmute mud to rock, unhallow, wall of fire, Volcanic Storm, Zone of Foul Flame, Blast of Sand (Sand), Bleakness (PHBII), Bright Worms (PHBII), Contingent Energy Resistance (SpC), Greater Creeping Cold (SpC), Giant Vermin, Miasma of Entropy (SpC), Pyroburst (PHBII), Starvation (SpC), Superior Magic Fang (SpC), Summon Undead IV (SpC), Unholy Beast (CoR), Wood Rot (SpC)
5th: antilife shell, Call Lightning Storm, contagious touch, create undead, harm, fire snake, forbiddance, repel wood, waves of faigue, Choking Sands (Sand), Cold Snap (SpC), Death Ward, Inferno (SpC), Mass Contagion (SpC), Summon Undead V (SpC), Toxic Weapon (PHBII), Wall of Sand (Sand, SpC)
6th: acid fog, antipathy, circle of death, finger of death, fireseeds, greater dispel, Sirocco, Quickened harm, Cometfall (SpC), Energy Immunity (SpC), Enveloping Cocoon (SpC), Chasing Perfection (PHBII), Fleshiver (SpC), Miasma (SpC), Summon Undead VI (SpC), Veil of Undeath (SpC)

Awakeninfinity

2019-05-19, 08:00 AM

I've always wanted to play a half- Battle Dragon Half-Celestial Half-elf Ftr /Sor Gish; but the LA is straight up fatal (if it had racial hd instead; it would be playable; but alas it does not)

Story wise she is the daughter of a Celestial Half-elf granddaughter of Corellon and a Battle dragon.; She would strongly favor the celestial side (losing things like the bite at for Appearence purposes.

But she would in theory be practically immortal. (Though I can't find any age rules for Half-Celestial; just the simple progression of logic caused by the Aasimar's aging rules.)

GreatWyrmGold

2019-05-19, 09:44 AM

Each level is like 1-2 months of play so saying that you'll play a build you'll enjoy more after 17 months of play instead of from the start is not a reason.
You're assuming that a MoMF is superior to a druid up until shapechange? That's just wrong. Druids get spellcasting, and shapechange is just the worst offender in that regard (in that it does everything a MoMF does, better). If MoMF let your wild shape do things shapechange couldn't, it would be worth considering; as is, a druid is served better by just not taking it. I'm not sure MoMF justifies losing access to e.g. reincarnate and freedom of movement until pure druids are already taking liveoak or wall of fire.
MoMF offers too little, too slowly. I'm not even sure a wild shape ranger would be better served by this than by their full-base-attack base class and its features. Unless I'm missing something, it doesn't seem like you'd be getting any substantial benefits from shaping into other forms (beyond a little flexibility and maybe some infiltration stuff that could mostly be duplicated with a hat of disguise) until you start getting extraordinary special qualities at seventh level, most of the way into the class. And as you put it, saying you'll play a build you'll get something out of after 10 months of play isn't a [good] reason.

Eldariel

2019-05-19, 11:07 AM

You're assuming that a MoMF is superior to a druid up until shapechange? That's just wrong. Druids get spellcasting, and shapechange is just the worst offender in that regard (in that it does everything a MoMF does, better). If MoMF let your wild shape do things shapechange couldn't, it would be worth considering; as is, a druid is served better by just not taking it. I'm not sure MoMF justifies losing access to e.g. reincarnate and freedom of movement until pure druids are already taking liveoak or wall of fire.
MoMF offers too little, too slowly. I'm not even sure a wild shape ranger would be better served by this than by their full-base-attack base class and its features. Unless I'm missing something, it doesn't seem like you'd be getting any substantial benefits from shaping into other forms (beyond a little flexibility and maybe some infiltration stuff that could mostly be duplicated with a hat of disguise) until you start getting extraordinary special qualities at seventh level, most of the way into the class. And as you put it, saying you'll play a build you'll get something out of after 10 months of play isn't a [good] reason.

Wildshape Ranger definitely gets more outta it: it gets Large, Huge and even Gargantuan forms (normally restricted to Medium), various types, Extraordinary Wildshape (Wildshape Ranger can't access Enhance Wild Shape for it so it's pretty darn key in making many forms much, much more formidable) and of course a ton of types, faster wildshaping and so on.

ShurikVch

2019-05-19, 02:22 PM

You're assuming that a MoMF is superior to a druid up until shapechange? That's just wrong. Druids get spellcasting, and shapechange is just the worst offender in that regard (in that it does everything a MoMF does, better). If MoMF let your wild shape do things shapechange couldn't, it would be worth considering; as is, a druid is served better by just not taking it. I'm not sure MoMF justifies losing access to e.g. reincarnate and freedom of movement until pure druids are already taking liveoak or wall of fire.
MoMF offers too little, too slowly. I'm not even sure a wild shape ranger would be better served by this than by their full-base-attack base class and its features. Unless I'm missing something, it doesn't seem like you'd be getting any substantial benefits from shaping into other forms (beyond a little flexibility and maybe some infiltration stuff that could mostly be duplicated with a hat of disguise) until you start getting extraordinary special qualities at seventh level, most of the way into the class. And as you put it, saying you'll play a build you'll get something out of after 10 months of play isn't a [good] reason.
Wildshape Ranger definitely gets more outta it: it gets Large, Huge and even Gargantuan forms (normally restricted to Medium), various types, Extraordinary Wildshape (Wildshape Ranger can't access Enhance Wild Shape for it so it's pretty darn key in making many forms much, much more formidable) and of course a ton of types, faster wildshaping and so on.And Abolisher (Lords of Madness) will get even more: Wild Shape which granted by that PrC allow Medium-sized Animals... And no new shapes, or even sizes!

SLOTHRPG95

2019-05-19, 04:07 PM

I love it so simple yet to elegant.
Do you change the Curse to more uses or get it back if target succeeds as well (common fix so curious)?

I do the latter, since it mirrors a change I already make for Paladins (so I didn't even think to mention it since I forgot it wasn't the default).

ZamielVanWeber

2019-05-19, 04:25 PM

My favorite unplayable is the True Necromancer. The idea of someone who has gained arcane power from both the gods and their own arcane magic to become the best necromancer is really fun. Unfortunately, one isn't as good at necromancy as most straight clerics in terms of minions, nor as good at using necromancy to attack as a wizard. For the most part, it is more optimal to just end up taking levels in mystic theurge instead and taking a few necromancy themed feats, but there's so little synergy between the arcane and divine necromancy that it still doesn't end up working well.

Can I just say I hate the entry reqs with a burning passion? Not only are they legion but the spell requirements make it so every early entry trick I know of does not work properly. I still use it from time to time because it is not terrible (compared to many things anyways...) and I love the concept, but the best I have found is getting 17/16 casting and caster level 19/18 or 23/22 for necromancy (thanks Illumian).

Greecy

2019-05-19, 05:47 PM

JoshuaZ

2019-05-19, 08:16 PM

Can I just say I hate the entry reqs with a burning passion? Not only are they legion but the spell requirements make it so every early entry trick I know of does not work properly. I still use it from time to time because it is not terrible (compared to many things anyways...) and I love the concept, but the best I have found is getting 17/16 casting and caster level 19/18 or 23/22 for necromancy (thanks Illumian).

Honestly, I'd be ok playing with it even without early entry shennannigans if it didn't have the lost caster levels on top of that.

Eldariel

2019-05-20, 01:42 AM

Master Transmogrifist from Complete Arcane, It's definiately playable (Because polymorph hijinks) but I am irked that they dont get access to Shapechange because of the 4 dead caster levels. The class' abilities often name the spell in their descriptions.

Well, you can access it, it just takes some serious hijinks. Sublime Chord plus some stuff to fit 3 dead levels before it suffices. Of course, that requires early entry. Beholder Mage is easier.

Telonius

2019-05-20, 10:23 AM

A couple from Incarnum: Undead Meldshaper, and Soulborn. They apparently forgot that undead can't qualify for any of the Incarnum feats that require Con X. It's an easy enough houserule fix (substitute Charisma for Constitution), but as-is that Necropolitan meldshaper is going to be pretty terrible.

Soulborn is ... yeah.

For both things, I really want them to be awesome. I can think of several character concepts for Soulborns in particular, and even on the DM side of things putting a couple levels of meldshaper on a Vampire could be amazingly thematic. But mechanically? Blargh.

ZamielVanWeber

2019-05-20, 10:24 AM

GreatWyrmGold

2019-05-20, 01:31 PM

A lot of monsters with their printed LAs. The only book that gave remotely fair LAs to monsters is Fiend Folio and that had a severe editing issue so some LAs include hit dice and some don't so sometimes you are just guessing what the LA actually is.
Some day, I may tire of linking to Inevitability's level-adjustment-reassignment project (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518086-The-LA-assignment-archive). Today is not that day.

ZamielVanWeber

2019-05-20, 04:15 PM

Oh I use that all the time, but some DMs will absolutely not for any reason use that so if I play a monster character (outside of a short list) I need to pay out the nose because some designer was like "Bad player! Don't have fun in a game."

Blue Jay

2019-05-21, 08:27 AM

See if you can convince your DM to use Inevitability's level adjustments (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518086-The-LA-assignment-archive).

Actually, I'm one of the moderators for the online game board I mostly play on, and I already convinced the other moderators to allow it. I even made Reassigned-LA Savage progressions for essentially all the monsters from the MM, and I've started on MM3.

How about the Sleeping Blossom Sprites (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20040718a)? (Still, no LA...)

Oh, I've never seen that article before. Neat! I mean, I still prefer the shimmerlings, because I like that they're glowing light fairies, but I just want better control over who gets blinded and fascinated.

(ethereal filcher) LA: +0 (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060224a)!

It's still tough with the Intelligence penalty. I was trying to make a gestalt filcher || spellthief for the thematics, but the most entertaining idea I've built (halfway) is a filcher || rogue that uses two slings.

StevenC21

2019-05-21, 09:37 AM

What differentiates LA -0 and LA +0?

OgresAreCute

2019-05-21, 09:45 AM

Actually, I'm one of the moderators for the online game board I mostly play on, and I already convinced the other moderators to allow it. I even made Reassigned-LA Savage progressions for essentially all the monsters from the MM, and I've started on MM3.

You can't just drop that bombshell and not link it anywhere...

What differentiates LA -0 and LA +0?

+0 means playable as-is with no adjustment necessary, LA -0 means it's too bad to keep up with other characters in its role and needs some help (usually removing some RHD is simple and good).

Kyrell1978

2019-05-21, 10:10 AM

I've always wanted to try out the soul knife (it reminds me of an old Rifts O.C.C. that I liked) but it's just garbage as is.

Blue Jay

2019-05-21, 10:18 AM

You can't just drop that bombshell and not link it anywhere...

I think I've linked it before. It's just the Realm Folded Tavern (https://www.myth-weavers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=33832) group at Myth-Weavers. It's a solid group that's been running for years, and several active characters are using the Reassigned LA's.

I'm hosting the Savage Progressions at a "personal" game forum (also at Myth-Weavers): Here (https://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=439808) are the ones for the MM, and here (https://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=469470) are the ones for MM3.

GreatWyrmGold

2019-05-22, 01:09 AM

Actually, I'm one of the moderators for the online game board I mostly play on, and I already convinced the other moderators to allow it. I even made Reassigned-LA Savage progressions for essentially all the monsters from the MM, and I've started on MM3.
You might want to stick links to those in your sig. They're pretty cool, even if they're arguably partly derived from Inevitability's work.