Why not call off the wager?

[CJG]

Pardon if it’s been discussed.

Loki doesn’t want the world to end, Thor does t want the world to end, why can’t they just say “Hel, didn’t realize you were hurting so bad, let call off the bet k? You get evil dwarves and Thor gets good ones (or whatever makes sense)”

Granted, she’d probably still go forth with her plan regardless, why not, but how come the good(ish) guys aren’t even trying to fix this?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Pardon if it’s been discussed.

Loki doesn’t want the world to end, Thor does t want the world to end, why can’t they just say “Hel, didn’t realize you were hurting so bad, let call off the bet k? You get evil dwarves and Thor gets good ones (or whatever makes sense)”

Granted, she’d probably still go forth with her plan regardless, why not, but how come the good(ish) guys aren’t even trying to fix this?

I would imagine it's for the same reason they can't change anything else about the world: it was built into this version when they re-created snarl's prison using the threads of reality, and to change the bet they need to destroy the world and re-create it.

Grey Wolf

[CJG]

I would imagine it's for the same reason they can't change anything else about the world: it was built into this version when they re-created snarl's prison using the threads of reality, and to change the bet they need to destroy the world and re-create it.

Grey Wolf

Huh. I’ll take that to the shop. Thanks!

[jwhouk]

Also, even if they could, the only way Hel would go along with it would be to be named Queen of the Northern Pantheon. That's not going to happen, methinks.

[factotum]

It's too late in the day to call off the wager. Even if it was removed now, Hel still has no living clerics and is hated generally by all of dwarfkind, so it would take decades or even centuries--most likely the latter, given how long dwarfs live--before her worship could recover enough to put her back on an even keel with the other gods. Why would she accept that when her plan gives her such power?

[Wizard_Lizard]

why only get bad dwarves whenyou can get ALL dwarves?

[Quebbster]

No backsies.

[Fyraltari]

If they could, they would have centuries ago when both Hel and Thor realized what sitation they were in.

[Nith]

The real explanation is likely that Hel wouldn't become leader of the Northern pantheon that way, but it's possible that she simply thinks the world should be destroyed on the merits. About half of the gods reached that conclusion anyway.

The risk Hel is taking is that her plan might fail and then she is still stuck in the wager, but she's currently banking on it succeding.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Her options would be.
Become leader of the gods.
Or
Become an average goddess.
hmmm. which one would the power hungry crazy goddess pick?
I wonder...

[Morquard]

The real explanation is likely that Hel wouldn't become leader of the Northern pantheon that way, but it's possible that she simply thinks the world should be destroyed on the merits. About half of the gods reached that conclusion anyway.

The risk Hel is taking is that her plan might fail and then she is still stuck in the wager, but she's currently banking on it succeding.

And if it fails, she could then still try and get the bet revoked, Thor would likely go for it even then, he doesn't seem to be happy with the current status quo either. IF it was possible, which I doubt.

[Emanick]

If they could, they would have centuries ago when both Hel and Thor realized what sitation they were in.

She might have realized that she would eventually benefit when the world inevitably ended, and so she was never willing to call off the bet. If the Order permanently ends the threat of The Snarl, she may be a lot more willing to call it off - at that point she no longer has anything to gain.

Also, I’m like 60% sure that the horrible situation that the dwarves are in will not be allowed to persist for eternity (the ones who will die in the future, that is - the ones already with Hel are probably doomed). It’s just a gut feeling that I don’t fully trust (hence the 60%, not 100%), but that feels like the sort of thing that Rich would bring to an end as part of the closure for the story. “What will dwarven culture look like in the future if they’re no longer essentially forced to die with honor?” sounds like a question he would enjoy posing, if not something he would ever answer.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It's too late in the day to call off the wager. Even if it was removed now, Hel still has no living clerics and is hated generally by all of dwarfkind, so it would take decades or even centuries--most likely the latter, given how long dwarfs live--before her worship could recover enough to put her back on an even keel with the other gods. Why would she accept that when her plan gives her such power?

I'm not sure it would take that long. After all, once the bet is gone she can also start proselytizing humans, elves, gnomes, etc. I'm sure there are many necromancers who would find her an acceptable patron deity.

[Riftwolf]

I would imagine it's for the same reason they can't change anything else about the world: it was built into this version when they re-created snarl's prison using the threads of reality, and to change the bet they need to destroy the world and re-create it.

Grey Wolf

I'm going with this explanation too. God bets aren't some lame truth-or-dare; they're hardbaked into reality and only the apocalypse revokes them.

[Fyraltari]

I'm not sure it would take that long. After all, once the bet is gone she can also start proselytizing humans, elves, gnomes, etc. I'm sure there are many necromancers who would find her an acceptable patron deity.

Elves are Westerners.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Also, I’m like 60% sure that the horrible situation that the dwarves are in will not be allowed to persist for eternity (the ones who will die in the future, that is - the ones already with Hel are probably doomed). It’s just a gut feeling that I don’t fully trust (hence the 60%, not 100%), but that feels like the sort of thing that Rich would bring to an end as part of the closure for the story. “What will dwarven culture look like in the future if they’re no longer essentially forced to die with honor?” sounds like a question he would enjoy posing, if not something he would ever answer.
That would be kinda neat; I'm not sure it's something that can be resolved in a satisfying manner without consuming more space than it's worth, but it would be neat.



I'm not sure it would take that long. After all, once the bet is gone she can also start proselytizing humans, elves, gnomes, etc. I'm sure there are many necromancers who would find her an acceptable patron deity.
Necromancers, yes, but I wouldn't think humans, elves, or gnomes would much like the death god. Comes with the job; nobody wants to tick you off, but nobody wants to praise you eternally either. If Hel were proselytizing strategically, she'd pick the races which don't have well-established pantheons. Definitely not elves, probably not humans, but I bet she'd be willing to collaborate with The Dark One. (Seems like she'd appeal more to the northern bugbears than Redcloak's faith did. Besides, TDO's followers seem more undead-tolerant than most races.)

[Fyraltari]

Necromancers, yes, but I wouldn't think humans, elves, or gnomes would much like the death god. Comes with the job; nobody wants to tick you off, but nobody wants to praise you eternally either.

Yes they would. In fact they used to (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1082.html).

[Darth Paul]

Necromancers, yes, but I wouldn't think humans, elves, or gnomes would much like the death god. Comes with the job; nobody wants to tick you off, but nobody wants to praise you eternally either. If Hel were proselytizing strategically, she'd pick the races which don't have well-established pantheons. Definitely not elves, probably not humans, but I bet she'd be willing to collaborate with The Dark One. (Seems like she'd appeal more to the northern bugbears than Redcloak's faith did. Besides, TDO's followers seem more undead-tolerant than most races.)

I imagine that's kind of YMMV depending on the human, elf, or gnome we're talking about. After all, don't all species have teenagers who think it's "edgy" to dress in black and pretend vampires are cool?

I think she just needs better marketing. And maybe a series of trashy novels.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Elves are Westerners.

They can still change patron deities.

And necromancers are just one example. Hel could also inspire a cult that works to kill off anyone who got raised or resurrected*. One life per customer! Death metal bards are possible too.


*and that would get some inevitables working for her too.

[Fyraltari]

They can still change patron deities.

Can they? All Dwarves fall into the purview of the Northern Gods, if they could have switched pantheon I think a significant portion would have rather than be honour-bound, yet they haven't. Given that every single Elf we've seen is a Westerner, the "Elven Lands" are in the West and the Elven Gods get to vote only as part of the Western Pantheon, I don't think they get to change either.

[Rogar Demonblud]

V's converting to Banjoism was considered possible instead of anyone dismissing it out of hand. And I'm pretty sure I've seen at least one quote from the Giant on the subject of dwarves converting to the Southern Pantheon. Let me go check.

[ijuinkun]

It seems like the only reason being sent to Hel sucks is because Hel herself chooses to treat poorly those souls that she receives. It's by her choice alone that most of the souls she controls are condemned to torment (e.g. how she treated the ones cleaning her throne in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1082.html ). If they were say, merely forced to labor for Hel and not actively tormented by her, then such an afterlife might be tolerable instead of horrifying.

[Rrmcklin]

{snip}


Necromancers, yes, but I wouldn't think humans, elves, or gnomes would much like the death god. Comes with the job; nobody wants to tick you off, but nobody wants to praise you eternally either. If Hel were proselytizing strategically, she'd pick the races which don't have well-established pantheons. Definitely not elves, probably not humans, but I bet she'd be willing to collaborate with The Dark One. (Seems like she'd appeal more to the northern bugbears than Redcloak's faith did. Besides, TDO's followers seem more undead-tolerant than most races.)

I'm fairly certain "necromancer" is just a descriptor of a for a person who focuses in the necromancy school (or whatever they're called) of casting, and not a separate race, and so I'm not sure why you're making the distinction.

And as Hel is a part of, seemingly unchangeably (quiddity and all) of the Northern Pantheon, I doubt she could do what you've suggested.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Wait....
When Haley converted to Thor worship, doe that mean that if se dies withoit honor, is she doomed to hel?

[factotum]

Wait....
When Haley converted to Thor worship, doe that mean that if se dies withoit honor, is she doomed to hel?

No, because the wager only applies to dwarfs, not everyone who worships the northern gods.

[Fyraltari]

Wait....
When Haley converted to Thor worship, doe that mean that if se dies withoit honor, is she doomed to hel?

The Giant explained (help me, Jasdoif Kenobanana, you are my only hope) that she’d have to believe in the honor-dependent punishment system for Hel’s status as goddess of the dishonored dead to affect her.

Also she didn’t actually convert.

[Wizard_Lizard]

The Giant explained (help me, Jasdoif Kenobanana, you are my only hope) that she’d have to believe in the honor-dependent punishment system for Hel’s status as goddess of the dishonored dead to affect her.

Also she didn’t actually convert.

Yes I know.
But you bring up an interesting poit. What ifa dwarf was raised by elves and grew up to believe in the western pantheon, not ever hearing abkut the whole honour thing, let alone believing in it. Where would they go if they died dishonorably?

[Fyraltari]

Yes I know.
But you bring up an interesting poit. What ifa dwarf was raised by elves and grew up to believe in the western pantheon, not ever hearing abkut the whole honour thing, let alone believing in it. Where would they go if they died dishonorably?

To Hel. They’re a dwarf, thus subject to the Bet, thus what they believe in doesn’t matter.

[Wizard_Lizard]

To Hel. They’re a dwarf, thus subject to the Bet, thus what they believe in doesn’t matter.

What if they did not even know that those gods existed. Wat if they thought that they were a halfling or a gnome their whole life?

[Fyraltari]

What if they did not even know that those gods existed. Wat if they thought that they were a halfling or a gnome their whole life?
They’d be very surprised and Hel would get a great ice-breaker at evil god parties is my guess. Well if anybody other than Thrym ever invited her, of course.

[Wizard_Lizard]

They’d be very surprised and Hel would get a great ice-breaker at evil god parties is my guess. Well if anybody other than Thrym ever invited her, of course.

moral of the story: don't make deals with trickster gods.

[Peelee]

help me, Jasdoif Kenobanana, you are my only hope

This is getting out of hand, now there are two of them (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=13053125&postcount=20)!

A human can worship Thor if he wants, certainly, but he is much more popular among the dwarves. Hel is specifically the goddess of the dishonored dead, which requires a system of honor/dishonor that really only applies to the dwarves and those humans that choose to believe in such things. If Haley died of disease, she wouldn't go to Hel because she wouldn't believe that she had been dishonored.

moral of the story: don't make deals with trickster gods.

The dwarves didn't make the deal, though. In fact, Hel's glee at the deal hinged on that the dwarves wouldn't know. So as far as the dwarves are concerned, the moral of the story is live honorably so you can die honorably. :smalltongue:

[GreatWyrmGold]

Yes they would. In fact they used to (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1082.html).
Unless we're taking Hel extremely literally, they occasionally praised Hel. Now, I suppose an ultra-literal interpretation is technically supported by the comic, but that argument is weakened by the fact that they'd be singing Hel's praises while they were asleep, as long as they hadn't died.



I'm fairly certain "necromancer" is just a descriptor of a for a person who focuses in the necromancy school (or whatever they're called) of casting, and not a separate race, and so I'm not sure why you're making the distinction.
...Because humans, elves, and gnomes aren't all necromancers? Most humans/elves/gnomes have no particular reason to consistently worship Hel, but necromancers would.


And as Hel is a part of, seemingly unchangeably (quiddity and all) of the Northern Pantheon, I doubt she could do what you've suggested.
Why not? TDO, Loki, Tiamat, and Rat used to work together back before TDO left their chat room. You don't need the same quiddity to be...allies or business associates or buddies or whatever.

[Fyraltari]

Unless we're taking Hel extremely literally, they occasionally praised Hel. Now, I suppose an ultra-literal interpretation is technically supported by the comic, but that argument is weakened by the fact that they'd be singing Hel's praises while they were asleep, as long as they hadn't died.

What's your point? :smallconfused:

[Wizard_Lizard]

Unless we're taking Hel extremely literally, they occasionally praised Hel. Now, I suppose an ultra-literal interpretation is technically supported by the comic, but that argument is weakened by the fact that they'd be singing Hel's praises while they were asleep, as long as they hadn't died.



Why not just take a semi literal understanding, instead of going completely over the top.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm going with this explanation too. God bets aren't some lame truth-or-dare; they're hardbaked into reality and only the apocalypse revokes them. I like this explanation.

I think she just needs better marketing. And maybe a series of trashy novels. Yeah. Fifty Shades of Hel ...

[heavyfuel]

No backsies.

The actual answer

[Rrmcklin]

Unless we're taking Hel extremely literally, they occasionally praised Hel. Now, I suppose an ultra-literal interpretation is technically supported by the comic, but that argument is weakened by the fact that they'd be singing Hel's praises while they were asleep, as long as they hadn't died.



...Because humans, elves, and gnomes aren't all necromancers? Most humans/elves/gnomes have no particular reason to consistently worship Hel, but necromancers would.


Why not? TDO, Loki, Tiamat, and Rat used to work together back before TDO left their chat room. You don't need the same quiddity to be...allies or business associates or buddies or whatever.

1) Pretty sure there is Word of Author that when he says no one has worshipped Hel that does in fact mean, literally no (living) person ever. Arguing about how that doesn't make any sense all you want, but it's what the story is going with.

2) Because you made it sound like "necromancer" was a separate race altogether. Aside from that, you have no real basis for claiming that ordinary people wouldn't worship a god of death to begin with.

3) You said she should find some people unaffiliated with a pantheon to worship her. Seeing as Hel is inextricably linked to the Northern Pantheon, I doubt that's possible. What does having allies in other pantheons have to do with anything?

[GreatWyrmGold]

What's your point? :smallconfused:
That a literal reading is ridiculous, so we need to take a non-literal reading. To expand on that...


Why not just take a semi literal understanding, instead of going completely over the top.
How literal is "semi-literal"? Is it completely over the top to suggest that people spent their entire waking lives praising Hel for, I dunno, not getting hit by a meteor? Is it still "semi-literal" to suggest that people only praised Hel when they almost died and didn't, or at least thought they almost died or could have died? Your solution is too vague to be helpful.

Also, I was trying to establish that Hel was speaking hyperbolically. How much hyperbole should we assume the self-victimizing semi-megalomaniacal teenaged-acting goddess was using? "Very little" doesn't sound like the right answer.



1) Pretty sure there is Word of Author that when he says no one has worshipped Hel that does in fact mean, literally no (living) person ever. Arguing about how that doesn't make any sense all you want, but it's what the story is going with.

2) Because you made it sound like "necromancer" was a separate race altogether. Aside from that, you have no real basis for claiming that ordinary people wouldn't worship a god of death to begin with.

3) You said she should find some people unaffiliated with a pantheon to worship her. Seeing as Hel is inextricably linked to the Northern Pantheon, I doubt that's possible. What does having allies in other pantheons have to do with anything?
1. ...I don't know you viewed my argument about how Hel wasn't frequently worshiped as an argument for Hel being worshiped, but okay.
2. I was under the impression that you could categorize groups of people in different ways without specifying the type of category every time. Especially when the definitions should be well-known to everyone in the discussion.
3. Mortals are not affiliated with specific pantheons. Mortals worship gods, who belong to pantheons, and eventually fall into the possession of a god in a pantheon, but they are not of the pantheon. Thor explicitly says they have three colors of quiddity (which is why they were more resistant to the Snarl than a god of equal level would have been). You might as well say that an elf worshiping Rabbit or a dwarf worshiping Bahamut is impossible, since the elves and dwarves worship the elven/Western and Northern gods, respectively. And don't get me started on humans...

[Fyraltari]

That a literal reading is ridiculous, so we need to take a non-literal reading. To expand on that...


How literal is "semi-literal"? Is it completely over the top to suggest that people spent their entire waking lives praising Hel for, I dunno, not getting hit by a meteor? Is it still "semi-literal" to suggest that people only praised Hel when they almost died and didn't, or at least thought they almost died or could have died? Your solution is too vague to be helpful.
You do realize that saying someone does something "all the time" is just a way to say they do that frequently, right? Nobody ever pushed for a literal interpretation of that.

It's quite, simple: they prayed to her when they got sick or injured and feared death, they prayed to her when their relatives were sick or injured, they prayed to her when they got pregnant so that their wouldn't be a death by childbirth or a stillborn child. They probably prayed to her for their ennemies to get sick and die as well.

Basically they prayed to her in the exact same situation that humans in the real world have prayed to death gods during all of History. And that means praying to her often enough that she didn't actually have to actively do something to ensure she'd get the required amount of Worship, Souls, Belif and Dedication she needed to stay heatlhy(-ish she is a goddess of disease).

EDIT: You seem insistent that the only description we've had of the worship of Hel in the older worlds is a lie, but there is nothing to contradict that. So why think that?

[GreatWyrmGold]

{{Scrubbed}}

[Kish]

And I already demonstrated it was an exaggeration, which you seem to agree with. You just disagree on how much of an exaggeration it is. Do you have any reason to think she was exaggerating less than I think?
I'm not clear on what you're suggesting. If it leads to anything like "she was unable to function as an evil god on the same plane as Fenrir, Rat, and so on," then yes, I think it's impossible to reasonably get that out of what Thor said about the changes in Hel, even if you assume Hel is making up out of whole cloth a past when she had anything but Dedications.

Evil gods, death gods, and evil death gods have plenty of worshipers and clerics in D&D settings. Hel doesn't because she's barred from having them, not because she's unprecedentedly repulsive.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'm not clear on what you're suggesting. If it leads to anything like "she was unable to function as an evil god on the same plane as Fenrir, Rat, and so on," then yes, I think it's impossible to reasonably get that out of what Thor said about the changes in Hel, even if you assume Hel is making up out of whole cloth a past when she had anything but Dedications.

Evil gods, death gods, and evil death gods have plenty of worshipers and clerics in D&D settings. Hel doesn't because she's barred from having them, not because she's unprecedentedly repulsive.
Let's go over what I've actually said so far in this argument.

1. Hel, being a death goddess, is unlikely to be popular in races with established pantheons. ("Nobody wants to tick you off, but nobody wants to praise you eternally either.")
2. Hel, being a goddess with no church and an unpopular job, would be wise to proselytise among races without established pantheons.
3. Since TDO, Loki, Tiamat, and Rat used to work together, gods from different pantheons can clearly work together.
4. It would be to Hel's advantage to work with other gods who would appeal to such underserved races, like TDO (who already has an established base of worshipers, including some who sorta-kinda follow his faith but might be more open to Hel's creed).

I didn't say that Hel probably won't get much support from the Northern Gods, due to her little attempted coup, and hence getting allies outside that group would be wise; I suppose I might as well put it out there now.

What I did not say:
1. Hel was never worshiped.
2. Hel can't function as a god without some sugar daddy to support her.
3. Hel doesn't have clerics because, nyeugh, I dunno, potatoes.
4. Everyone in TDO's old chat group is stronger than Hel.

Argue against my actual points.

[Rrmcklin]

Let's go over what I've actually said so far in this argument.

1. Hel, being a death goddess, is unlikely to be popular in races with established pantheons. ("Nobody wants to tick you off, but nobody wants to praise you eternally either.")
2. Hel, being a goddess with no church and an unpopular job, would be wise to proselytise among races without established pantheons.
3. Since TDO, Loki, Tiamat, and Rat used to work together, gods from different pantheons can clearly work together.
4. It would be to Hel's advantage to work with other gods who would appeal to such underserved races, like TDO (who already has an established base of worshipers, including some who sorta-kinda follow his faith but might be more open to Hel's creed).

I didn't say that Hel probably won't get much support from the Northern Gods, due to her little attempted coup, and hence getting allies outside that group would be wise; I suppose I might as well put it out there now.

What I did not say:
1. Hel was never worshiped.
2. Hel can't function as a god without some sugar daddy to support her.
3. Hel doesn't have clerics because, nyeugh, I dunno, potatoes.
4. Everyone in TDO's old chat group is stronger than Hel.

Argue against my actual points.

When you're starting from a premise you have no actual basis for, arguing against the rest of what you said seems pretty pointless (and people still did so anyway).

[Kish]

Let's go over what I've actually said so far in this argument.

1. Hel, being a death goddess, is unlikely to be popular in races with established pantheons.
[...]
Argue against my actual points.
I did. Your apparent dislike for my argument aside. Though I would add that calling your unsupported assertion and three more assertions that build on that one points strikes me as overly generous.

Again:
Evil gods, death gods, and evil death gods have plenty of worshipers and clerics in D&D settings. Hel doesn't because she's barred from having them, not because she's unprecedentedly repulsive.

[Fyraltari]

{{scrubbed}}
That's wrong. Most people before the event of regular medicine were very aware of how omnipresent death is. Not only does pretty much everyone knows dead people, but there are entire professions that deal exclusively in death (ie morticians who are needed in every city not just ports unlike sailors) and soldiers. Not to mention that Hades did have an establish clergy, and that death-themed festivals are a pretty universal phenomenon. Death may not be as common as rain, but it is much more important.


Hel would presumably have been the same way. Everyone used to pray to her occasionally, but hardly anyone prayed to her regularly (let alone "praised her eternally").

Not a lie, an exaggeration. It makes sense to assume she was worshiped significantly, but not so much that she wouldn't benefit from having regular worshipers. Certainly not so much that people would "praise you eternally," which is the phrase you initially took umbrage at.
She had a clergy, you know. These guys did pray to her eternally. Well as eternal as life (+undeath) + afterlife gets, anyway.
And beyond that, I see no reason why she wouldn't have her own laypeople devotees, like Thor has in the Thundershields and the rest of Firmament (although I am sure that Sigdi and Tenrin, being soldiers, used to pray to Tyr a lot as well)


And I already demonstrated it was an exaggeration, which you seem to agree with. You just disagree on how much of an exaggeration it is. Do you have any reason to think she was exaggerating less than I think?
Death gods are much more important to religions than you seem to think.

[deuterio12]

Death gods are much more important to religions than you seem to think.

Not only to religion but also to society as a whole.

Like several of the most impressive buildings that survived to our day from ancient times are death-related. The pyramids in both Egypt and Central America plus fancy tombs all over the place.

As they say death is the only certainity in our life, sooner or later she comes to collect everybody, rich and poor, strong and weak, loved and unloved. And whetever it's 1000-year old ginseng elixirs or the pilosopher's stone or their newer repainted versions like transhumanism, some people always looking for a way to escape it.

[Aaron L]

I don't think Hel would go for it as I think she is very unstable from not receiving the proper kind of devotion required for divine "good nutrition" (similar to the situation Odin is in.)

Hel doesn't get any kind of actual "worship," being proper praise and devotion. Hel has no cult, which comes from the same root as cultivation; the care and maintenance of a god through performing ceremonies and rituals in praise and supplication... all she gets is actually just appeasement. And lone dwarves desperately screaming "Please don't let me die!" (essentially "Stay away from me, Hel!") is much different than groups of dwarves happily performing ceremonies chanting "Praise be unto thee, Great Thor the Mighty!"

We've been shown through the example of Odin that simple recognition of a god's existence and power isn't nearly enough to keep them healthy. Odin is still acknowledged and respected as the All-Father of the pantheon, but even that hasn't been enough to keep him from going senile from lack of the proper kind of worship; All Hel has gotten for the entire existence of the current world has been outright rejection, desperate appeasement, and the souls of the sick and cowardly... I think she is probably very mentally disturbed by now, perhaps even enough to not even really care much if the Snarl just destroyed all the gods in the event that her plan didn't work out.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Egypt had at least two death gods
Anubis and Osiris
They got worshipped.

[snowblizz]

We've been shown through the example of Odin that simple recognition of a god's existence and power isn't nearly enough to keep them healthy. Odin is still acknowledged and respected as the All-Father of the pantheon, but even that hasn't been enough to keep him from going senile from lack of the proper kind of worship;

That's from the entire existence of the *last* world. Basically, this world is slowly rehabilitating him.

I agree on the idea that Hel isn't going to come ot of this arrangement very stable though. If she was to begin with.

[Wizard_Lizard]

That's from the entire existence of the *last* world. Basically, this world is slowly rehabilitating him.

I agree on the idea that Hel isn't going to come ot of this arrangement very stable though. If she was to begin with.

Just what we need, the loony deth goddess is getting even more cookoo

[Fyraltari]

This raises an interesting question. How much of the gods’ character is dependent on the mortals’ belief, and how much is how they originally were?

If everybody think Hel is terribly evil then she gets worse, and her actions will lead the next generation to think of her as worse than the generation before did. Repeat until the god’s character reaches an equilibrium it can never escape. The question wouldn’t be ask if the inter-world period was long enough for a personality to reset but we know from Odin it isn’t.

[Wizard_Lizard]

This raises an interesting question. How much of the gods’ character is dependent on the mortals’ belief, and how much is how they originally were?

If everybody think Hel is terribly evil then she gets worse, and her actions will lead the next generation to think of her as worse than the generation before did. Repeat until the god’s character reaches an equilibrium it can never escape. The question wouldn’t be ask if the inter-world period was long enough for a personality to reset but we know from Odin it isn’t.

Like in discworld!
Where the gods appearance is based off of what people belive they look like!
And a gods power is based on how msny belivers he/she has!

[Peelee]

This raises an interesting question. How much of the gods’ character is dependent on the mortals’ belief, and how much is how they originally were?

I think of the gods like a Stretch Armstrong doll.* You can stretch it and contort it forcibly somewhat, but it's still going to be recognizable for what it is, and it will eventually return back to its original state.

*Well, I do now that you asked that question, at least.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I think of the gods like a Stretch Armstrong doll.* You can stretch it and contort it forcibly somewhat, but it's still going to be recognizable for what it is, and it will eventually return back to its original state.

*Well, I do now that you asked that question, at least.

Unless you stretch them sofar that they break.

[Peelee]

Unless you stretch them sofar that they break.

I don't know if you're talking about the toy or this analogy.:smallamused:

[Wizard_Lizard]

I don't know if you're talking about the toy or this analogy.:smallamused:

both......

[Rrmcklin]

Besides, I don't know if Hel being terribly evil (or any more so than say Loki or Fenrir. or any other evil god) is part of her mental degradation.

We've been told she got a lot of worship in the old world(s), but that doesn't mean the people didn't actually know she was evil then.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Heck, she may not have been evil in all previous incarnations. If World #887734 uses reincarnation, she'd be no more evil than the person in Human Resources who transfers you to a new job in a different city.

[factotum]

We've been told that what your followers do affect the gods themselves, so Odin has gone a bit doolally because he's god of magic and all his worshippers hate magic. Since all Hel's worshippers are the desperate or the undead, that could definitely have had an effect on her personality.

[Rrmcklin]

We've been told that what your followers do affect the gods themselves, so Odin has gone a bit doolally because he's god of magic and all his worshippers hate magic. Since all Hel's worshippers are the desperate or the undead, that could definitely have had an effect on her personality.

Hel doesn't appear to get anything from the undead all. Besides the dwarves not wanting to go to her, we have no idea what the general view of her in the North actually is.

[deuterio12]

Like in discworld!
Where the gods appearance is based off of what people belive they look like!
And a gods power is based on how msny belivers he/she has!

But thing is in discworld the gods explicitly were created by mortal belief, while in OOTS the gods were the ones who created the world and mortals.

So why would the OOTS gods create mortals in such a way there can be such a drastic feedback loop?

And heck, how were the gods sustaining themselves previously?

Now thinking about it, it's entirely possible the OOTS gods initially were created by/from mortals too (just like the Dark One spontaneously arised just from the collected will of goblinkind). Then they blew up that first world and were the only thing that remained and started to starve so they tried to make a new world, spawned the snarl and that's how actually the whole cycle started!

[GreatWyrmGold]

I did. Your apparent dislike for my argument aside. Though I would add that calling your unsupported assertion and three more assertions that build on that one points strikes me as overly generous.

Again:
Evil gods, death gods, and evil death gods have plenty of worshipers and clerics in D&D settings. Hel doesn't because she's barred from having them, not because she's unprecedentedly repulsive.

In the D&D settings I'm familiar with, most death gods are not popular to worship. There are some exceptions, but the only ones I can think of are non-evil. Congregations of evil death gods are all but universally treated as cults rather than popular institutions.
Hel seems to be more like Wee Jas or Nerull than Kelemvor. Why should I not assume she was a death god in the same vein?



That's wrong. Most people before the event of regular medicine were very aware of how omnipresent death is. Not only does pretty much everyone knows dead people, but there are entire professions that deal exclusively in death (ie morticians who are needed in every city not just ports unlike sailors) and soldiers. Not to mention that Hades did have an establish clergy, and that death-themed festivals are a pretty universal phenomenon. Death may not be as common as rain, but it is much more important.
Soldiers tended to worship war gods (like Ares), because as it happens things can be death-related without being most closely related to Hades's domain. Morticians, yes, but if you have more morticians in your society than sailors (especially if you include fishermen and others whose professions are sea-based) you are either landlocked or in big trouble.
I believe Hades had a clergy. I never said he wasn't worshiped. I said he was. I just said he wasn't worshiped as much as, say, Aphrodite.

Why the Hel are you trying to say I don't think death gods are important, when I never said they weren't? I said they didn't get prayed to as much as other gods, that's not the same as saying they didn't get prayed to. In fact, I explicitly said they were prayed to.


What's so hard to get about the idea that death gods can be prayed to, but not much? "Much" compared to how often non-gods are prayed to, of course, but not much compared to other gods.
I'm sick of having to tell people "No, my argument isn't based on saying Hel wouldn't have goddam worshipers."




I don't think Hel would go for it as I think she is very unstable from not receiving the proper kind of devotion required for divine "good nutrition" (similar to the situation Odin is in.)
I did specify "If Hel were proselytizing strategically".



But thing is in discworld the gods explicitly were created by mortal belief, while in OOTS the gods were the ones who created the world and mortals.

So why would the OOTS gods create mortals in such a way there can be such a drastic feedback loop?

And heck, how were the gods sustaining themselves previously?

Now thinking about it, it's entirely possible the OOTS gods initially were created by/from mortals too (just like the Dark One spontaneously arised just from the collected will of goblinkind). Then they blew up that first world and were the only thing that remained and started to starve so they tried to make a new world, spawned the snarl and that's how actually the whole cycle started!
That's an interesting idea. I doubt it's what The Giant intends (or that he has any specific answer to "Where did the Gods come from?" in mind), but it's interesting.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Hades likely received more worship than Aphrodite. She doesn't have much of a portfolio that isn't shared with at least two other deities. Hades gets all the worship for funerals, near-death experiences, devotionals to dead ancestors and founding heroes, certain ritual associations with winter, a dab of hospitality related stuff and propitiation offerings to try and get a better afterlife.

[factotum]

Hel doesn't appear to get anything from the undead all.

You mean, apart from creating the spirits for vampires and all her clerics being undead?

[Rrmcklin]

You mean, apart from creating the spirits for vampires and all her clerics being undead?

Yes, because in terms of godly "nourishment", which the conversation seemed to be about, they apparently aren't included.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Yes, because in terms of godly "nourishment", which the conversation seemed to be about, they apparently aren't included.

I thought it was because all of her clerics were killed by adventurers as soon as she made them.

[factotum]

I thought it was because all of her clerics were killed by adventurers as soon as she made them.

Yes, I thought that too.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Yes, I thought that too.

Something along the lines of "And every time I empower an undead, it gets killed by a party of adventuters as a dungeon boss."

[Rrmcklin]

I thought it was because all of her clerics were killed by adventurers as soon as she made them.


Yes, I thought that too.

Why? Thor's explanation on what the gods need to survive and how they get it from mortals says nothing about the undead.

When Thor said she's been filling up on "empty dedications" I thought it was obvious he was referring to the dwarves who go to her after dying dishonorably, who really don't want to.


Something along the lines of "And every time I empower an undead, it gets killed by a party of adventuters as a dungeon boss."

That's an entirely different issue than the one we were talking about.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Why? Thor's explanation on what the gods need to survive and how they get it from mortals says nothing about the undead.

When Thor said she's been filling up on "empty dedications" I thought it was obvious he was referring to the dwarves who go to her after dying dishonorably, who really don't want to.



That's an entirely different issue than the one we were talking about.

sorry.....

[Peelee]

Why? Thor's explanation on what the gods need to survive and how they get it from mortals says nothing about the undead.

Well, undead aren't mortals, to start off with.:smallamused:

[GreatWyrmGold]

Hades likely received more worship than Aphrodite. She doesn't have much of a portfolio that isn't shared with at least two other deities. Hades gets all the worship for funerals, near-death experiences, devotionals to dead ancestors and founding heroes, certain ritual associations with winter, a dab of hospitality related stuff and propitiation offerings to try and get a better afterlife.
Since you're continuing to discuss Greek religion...relevant link (https://youtu.be/JIUq0pfAskU?t=774) (and the reason I picked Aphrodite)



Well, undead aren't mortals, to start off with.:smallamused:
Are they? Does "mortals" mean anything that dies, anything that isn't a god, a handful of creature types including Humanoid, something else? All we know for certain is that Humanoids are included in the group.
You might be right, but you might be wrong. Not great evidence.

[Peelee]

Are they? Does "mortals" mean anything that dies, anything that isn't a god, a handful of creature types including Humanoid, something else? All we know for certain is that Humanoids are included in the group.
You might be right, but you might be wrong. Not great evidence.

Death by old age seems to be effectively where the line is drawn in works that draw a distinction. If you have a finite lifespan, then you are mortal. Many creatures do not. They can still die (eg. the Eastern Pantheon was killed), but you have lifespan cap. So undead, like vampires, skeletons, etc., would not be mortals under this definition.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Death by old age seems to be effectively where the line is drawn in works that draw a distinction. If you have a finite lifespan, then you are mortal. Many creatures do not. They can still die (eg. the Eastern Pantheon was killed), but you have lifespan cap. So undead, like vampires, skeletons, etc., would not be mortals under this definition.
That is the general rule, but it's not always the rule (especially when "mortal" is described in relation to the divine), so I'm not confident in saying it must be true of the OotS-verse. Especially when we know there are undead who have special relationships with their gods, especially especially when the gods seem to expect something abstract out of those relationships (e.g, the undead clerics Hel kept raising).

[Rrmcklin]

That is the general rule, but it's not always the rule (especially when "mortal" is described in relation to the divine), so I'm not confident in saying it must be true of the OotS-verse. Especially when we know there are undead who have special relationships with their gods, especially especially when the gods seem to expect something abstract out of those relationships (e.g, the undead clerics Hel kept raising).

It must be true for this Oots because if it weren't Hel wouldn't be in the position she's in. Thor specifies exactly what it is the gods need the mortals for, and also specifies Hel isn't getting (most) of it. This in spite of us knowing she has plenty of undead servants (she had no high-level clerics, but that doesn't matter for this conversation).

I don't think it's ambiguous at all here.

Edit: Also, referred to the living (specifically Recloak) as "mortal" in a way that's obviously excluding himself in strip 1039.

[martianmister]

This raises an interesting question. How much of the gods’ character is dependent on the mortals’ belief, and how much is how they originally were?

If everybody think Hel is terribly evil then she gets worse, and her actions will lead the next generation to think of her as worse than the generation before did. Repeat until the god’s character reaches an equilibrium it can never escape. The question wouldn’t be ask if the inter-world period was long enough for a personality to reset but we know from Odin it isn’t.

Maybe Twelve Gods were supporting SG's crusades because there was many followers who believe that they act just like that.