Strongest monsters by CR?

[gogogome]

I'm feeling a bit lazy right now so I want to just drop my PCs on an island and have them face one monster at a time until they die or kill everything. The monster's CR will equal the party's level and the party will never face the same monster twice (unless summoned by something else).

I need a good 14 monsters per CR so that's 280 monsters which is why I'm asking the playground for help. There's so few epic monsters I can handle that myself.

Good creatures are fine. I'll just make them evil.

Rules
1. All 1st party only. No 2nd or 3rd party. All setting specific stuff is allowed.
2. No Webcontent.
3. No 3.0 monsters. Converting them is a pain and even after conversion they have huge gaping flaws. I might make an exception for Fiend Folio.
4. No advanced creatures. I'm doing this because I'm lazy at the moment so no class levels or advanced hd unless the books give a stat block for it.
5. No gear unless the monster entry uses it.
6. No templated creatures except the official examples.
7. Only spellcasting monsters whose spell knowns are given. I don't want to stat up spells for every creature.
8. Party will face only one monster at a time (summons don't count). Any creature with % chance of summoning a creature will always have 100% to summon.
9. Party will face only monsters whose CR = Level.
10. Party will mostly be undead or construct, so no monster that is strong because of its mind-affecting spells or anything that constructs and undead are immune to.
11. Party size will be 3 or 4. Their class composition shouldn't matter as I'm not tailoring the monsters to the PC's strength's or weaknesses.

I'm probably gonna have 1 hydra at every CR the hydra exists in because they're way too strong for their CR.

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[Mike Miller]

They are starting at level 1?

Jovoc, MM2... Away from book at the moment, but CR 5 I think.

That Damn Crab from Stormwrack... At every CR it has

[gogogome]

They are starting at level 1?

Yes. Also party size will either be 3 or 4.

[Mike Miller]

I have lots of ideas but need to trawl my books later to gather CR ratings. Also, edited earlier post

[OgresAreCute]

Ice and Snow Weirds from Frostburn are CR 15 and cast as 18th level sorcerers. Their spell lists don't seem incredible though, so they're probably not as strong as their casting would suggest. Elemental Weirds in MM2 are CR 12 with the same casting but you didn't want to use 3.0 content.


That Damn Crab from Stormwrack... At every CR it has

That would be the Monstrous Crab (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) (scroll down a little). The version of the monstrous crab in the actual Stormwrack book is a lot less dangerous, being CR 4 instead of CR 3, only having 36 HP compared to 66 HP, It's attack bonus is +8 compared to +10 and it deals 4 less points of damage per hit.

[gogogome]

Ice and Snow Weirds from Frostburn are CR 15 and cast as 18th level sorcerers. Their spell lists don't seem incredible though, so they're probably not as strong as their casting would suggest. Elemental Weirds in MM2 are CR 12 with the same casting but you didn't want to use 3.0 content.



That would be the Monstrous Crab (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) (scroll down a little). The version of the monstrous crab in the actual Stormwrack book is a lot less dangerous, being CR 4 instead of CR 3, only having 36 HP compared to 66 HP, It's attack bonus is +8 compared to +10 and it deals 4 less points of damage per hit.

No webcontent so I will be using the stormwrack version, if this version of the crab is within the top 14 strongest CR4 monsters.

[OgresAreCute]

No webcontent so I will be using the stormwrack version, if this version of the crab is within the top 14 strongest CR4 monsters.

A level 4 martial would probably kill that in 1-2 hits. Doesn't look very dangerous to me.

[MisterKaws]

Etomanothropes made based on Devastation Vermin tend to be ridiculously overpowered if you calculate their CR solely based on the way it's presented. But since you don't like templates, let's discard that.

Other than that, there's obviously the ridiculous Stormwrack Crabs. The Brine Swimmer from Sandstorm is also a main offender, at CR 3 with 6 Rake Attacks, basically an instakill to anyone it can grapple.

The Giant Constrictor Snake and the Colossal Scorpion are also pretty ridiculous, but they lack the explosive damage of the Crab and the Brine Swimmer.

Couatls, Driders, and other monsters who can cast level-relevant anti-undead spells are also very disruptive to an undead party. There are also some spells that focus on destroying constructs, so you can have that too.

[Zaq]

How will PC gear be advancing? CR 6 (to pick one semi-randomly) is gonna look very different if the only loot the PCs have access to is stuff that’s in printed monster statblocks of lower CR than if they’re getting something approximating regular WBL.

[gogogome]

How will PC gear be advancing? CR 6 (to pick one semi-randomly) is gonna look very different if the only loot the PCs have access to is stuff that’s in printed monster statblocks of lower CR than if they’re getting something approximating regular WBL.

No gear. The PCs will be only able to craft mundane gear if they find the time and materials.

[SirNibbles]

A Pixie (CR 4) could be tough to deal with. If the party doesn't have See Invisibility prepared (or if Dispel Magic lands), they can just get sniped by a flying, invisible foe with DR 10/cold iron and SR 16.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

At CR 1 a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Dracolich Warrior 1 with two flaws for Epic Toughness twice is where it's at. I know you don't want templated/leveled opponents, but this one is quick and definitely worth including. Just give it scale mail armor and it should use the two claws and a bite (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) attack routine.

For CR 2, a Wyrmling Steel Dragon (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a) with Flyby Attack, Practiced Spellcaster, Power Word: Pain, and Shield can be a very difficult opponent. Have it buff with Shield and stay way out of reach, use its breath attack as often as possible and put Power Word: Pain on each opponent in between those.

At CR 3 a Dragonkin (Draconomicon) can be extremely tough, since it can fly above them with a longspear for 20 ft. reach. Just be sure there's plenty of overhead clearance, and remember that if they try to hit it with a ranged attack while it threatens them it gets an AoO.

Also CR 3, the Monstrous Crab (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) is absurd, especially if it can grab someone and carry them back into the ocean.

[Mike Miller]

CR 10 : Balhannoth; MM4

I was looking through books and it is hard to pick out creatures without knowing more about the party. What else can you tell us about them? The more info, the better.

[gogogome]

I was looking through books and it is hard to pick out creatures without knowing more about the party. What else can you tell us about them? The more info, the better.

I don't want this to be tailored to the party. I know it sounds weird when I said I didn't want any mind-affecting creatures because of the party's undead and construct status, but that's because those creatures are binary like all save-or-die reliant creatures are.

The party has not built their characters yet but they're all gonna be spellcasters and not reliant on gear. Other than that I don't know.

I just want to throw the most powerful normal creatures in d&d at the party.


For CR 2, a Wyrmling Steel Dragon (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a) with Flyby Attack, Practiced Spellcaster, Power Word: Pain, and Shield can be a very difficult opponent. Have it buff with Shield and stay way out of reach, use its breath attack as often as possible and put Power Word: Pain on each opponent in between those.
...
Also CR 3, the Monstrous Crab (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) is absurd, especially if it can grab someone and carry them back into the ocean.

These are web content right? I don't use webcontent because their absurdity is on the same level as dragon magazine, for both dms and players.

[Zecrin]

Difficult Monsters that come to mind by CR:

2. Lesser Cranium Rat Swarm (FF)
3. Monstrous Crab (might be from the website)
4. Voor (MMIV), Guecuba (FC 1)
5. Ephemeral Swarm (MM3)
6. Plague Blight (Libris Mortis), Kyton (MM)
7. Bleakborn (LM), Quesar (Book of Exalted Deeds), Phasm (MM)
8. Drowned (MM3, errata’d to CR 9)
9. Adamantium Clockwork Horror (MMII, might be 3.0), Immoth (MMII, might be 3.0)
11. Greater Cranium Rat Swarm (FF)
12. Ayperobos Swarm (FC 2)
13. Beholder (MMV), Ken-Sun Elemental Mage (MMV)
15. Thoon Elder Brain (MMV), Mature Nabassu (FC 1)
16. Frostwind Virago (MMV), Planetar (MM), Zodar (FF)
17. Black Etherguant (FF)
18. Spirrax (MMV)
19. Molydeus (FC 1)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

These are web content right? I don't use webcontent because their absurdity is on the same level as dragon magazine, for both dms and players.

Steel Dragon is in Dragons of Faerun, and I believe a 3.0 book prior to that.

[MisterKaws]

These are web content right? I don't use webcontent because their absurdity is on the same level as dragon magazine, for both dms and players.

Both are exerpts, one from a FR book, the other from Stormwrack.

Actually I think the web version of the Crab is slightly weaker than the book version.

Still ultra-ridiculous.

Also, be wary. If the party is all casters, they can all fly, so you need to have flying monsters.

A Monstrous Crab won't be able to do anything by itself to a party of mages. You better give it a friendly Druid or it's not gonna work.

[gogogome]

Steel Dragon is in Dragons of Faerun, and I believe a 3.0 book prior to that.

Then that's disqualified for being 3.0. I tried using MMII, but it just failed hard even after updating it. The monsters were most of the time over CRed and had other holes like abilities not being updated to the 3.5 version like magic immunity and such. So no 3.0 creatures, with maybe the exception of fiend folio.


Both are exerpts, one from a FR book, the other from Stormwrack.

Actually I think the web version of the Crab is slightly weaker than the book version.

Still ultra-ridiculous.

Also, be wary. If the party is all casters, they can all fly, so you need to have flying monsters.

A Monstrous Crab won't be able to do anything by itself to a party of mages. You better give it a friendly Druid or it's not gonna work.

One person says the book version is weaksauce. Another person says the book version is stronger. I'll take a look at judge myself.

Flying PCs are not a problem. The crab will chase the PCs until the end of the earth and their flight will run out sooner or later. I doubt flying and unloading their entire spell list is a good strategy considering this isn't gonna be 1 encounter a day type of thing. I don't know how I'm gonna handle that but I'm gonna aim for 4 unless the players are great with their hide or something along those lines.

[MisterKaws]

Then that's disqualified for being 3.0. I tried using MMII, but it just failed hard even after updating it. The monsters were most of the time over CRed and had other holes like abilities not being updated to the 3.5 version like magic immunity and such. So no 3.0 creatures, with maybe the exception of fiend folio.



One person says the book version is weaksauce. Another person says the book version is stronger. I'll take a look at judge myself.

Flying PCs are not a problem. The crab will chase the PCs until the end of the earth and their flight will run out sooner or later. I doubt flying and unloading their entire spell list is a good strategy considering this isn't gonna be 1 encounter a day type of thing. I don't know how I'm gonna handle that but I'm gonna aim for 4 unless the players are great with their hide or something along those lines.

I mean, the crab is literally defenseless other than mind-effect immunity and high AC. Unless it can claw at something, the PCs can just choose any save-or-lose that is not mind-affecting and it goes down.

Of course, before level 6, both crabs and Brine Swimmers(if you decide to give murder shrimps a look) can realistically have them dead(re-dead?) twenty times over.

[Thurbane]

The online version of the Crab is much stronger for it's CR, it was toned down in Stormwrack. The OP-ness of the online version is a but of a running joke "That Damn Crab".

Dragons of Faerun in a 3.5 book.

Just to be clear: monsters that originally appeared in a 3.0, but were then republished in a 3.5 book, are banned? Or am I misreading that?

And online only sources are banned? As well as Dragon magazine?

If I understand correctly, you are looking for monsters that have only ever appeared in a 3.5 book...

[gogogome]

The online version of the Crab is much stronger for it's CR, it was toned down in Stormwrack. The OP-ness of the online version is a but of a running joke "That Damn Crab".

Dragons of Faerun in a 3.5 book.

Just to be clear: monsters that originally appeared in a 3.0, but were then republished in a 3.5 book, are banned? Or am I misreading that?

And online only sources are banned? As well as Dragon magazine?

If I understand correctly, you are looking for monsters that have only ever appeared in a 3.5 book...

Monsters republished in 3.5 books are not banned. As long as the monster exists in a 3.5 book it is not banned. I'm banning any monsters that exist in 3.0, on the web, or Dragon Magazine. For example, many monsters in fiend folio were republished in the fiendish codices and they're allowed. I'm still on the fence about whether to allow fiend folio or not.

[MisterKaws]

The online version of the Crab is much stronger for it's CR, it was toned down in Stormwrack. The OP-ness of the online version is a but of a running joke "That Damn Crab".

Dragons of Faerun in a 3.5 book.

Just to be clear: monsters that originally appeared in a 3.0, but were then republished in a 3.5 book, are banned? Or am I misreading that?

And online only sources are banned? As well as Dragon magazine?

If I understand correctly, you are looking for monsters that have only ever appeared in a 3.5 book...

Oh, I mistook then.

Yeah, I'm definitely seeing the problem. They took the CR4 crab, gave it a buff on all statistics, then dropped the CR down to 3.

ಠ_ಠ

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Monsters republished in 3.5 books are not banned. As long as the monster exists in a 3.5 book it is not banned. I'm banning any monsters that exist in 3.0, on the web, or Dragon Magazine. For example, many monsters in fiend folio were republished in the fiendish codices and they're allowed. I'm still on the fence about whether to allow fiend folio or not.

Then both the Monstrous Crab (Stormwrack) and Steel Dragon (Dragons of Faerun) should be fine, as both are from 3.5 books.

[gogogome]

Then both the Monstrous Crab (Stormwrack) and Steel Dragon (Dragons of Faerun) should be fine, as both are from 3.5 books.

They are but I'm using their stats from the books which apparently drops them down to normal or subpar. I'm AFB right now so I can't check it myself atm.

[MisterKaws]

They are but I'm using their stats from the books which apparently drops them down to normal or subpar. I'm AFB right now so I can't check it myself atm.

Subpar? All crabs are leagues above their own CR. The Web Enhancement crab is just a party wiper on the same level as rocks falling from the sky.

[Efrate]

Darkmantles are nasty at cr 1 if they ambush. Very easy to one shot a squishy. Chuuls at CR 2 iirc are also pretty bad though with their immunities as undead constructs not as good.

Swarms of any kind (dim and fine sized) at most crs force the aoe spells out or just die. Immune to most bfc, cannot one shot or save or suck most of them, and its just xd6 damage without much recourse.

[SirNibbles]

Difficult Monsters that come to mind by CR:

...
4. Voor (MMIV)
...)

Not very strong. Yes it's got decent immunities and defenses, but it has Blindsense, not Blindsight, meaning all enemies have total concealment. It can't make AoOs, is flat-footed vs all attacks, and has a 50% miss chance with its attacks. 15 AC and ~37 HP should be easy if they can break its DR.

[gogogome]

It appears there's not much of a choice at higher CR. There's less than a handful of CR20 creatures that aren't dragons. I don't think there's even 10 CR20 creatures in the game that aren't dragons. I'm not gonna be using dragons unless their spell known list is given because choosing an optimized full sorcerer spell list and feat selection is a huge pain.

[Efrate]

Balors are pretty mean. Solars are meaner. Lantern Archons are surprisingly effective early as well.

[Zaq]

Will o' wisps are surprisingly horrifying if you aren't built for 'em and you don't have a way of getting past them without killing them. At-will invisibility as a free action, 29 touch AC, immune to magic other than magic missile and maze. They're really, really durable, and while they don't hit crazy hard, they're hella accurate (+16 touch attack at CR 6! And that's before taking into account that they can go invisible as a free action...). They're also really fast with perfect flight, so getting away is nontrivial. If they want you dead, they're likely to beat you in an endurance game.

Lesser cranium rat swarms are bad, but normal cranium rat swarms are also horribly under-CR'd.

[Eldariel]

On CR2, Imp and Quasit are both pretty strong. They're both very much so tricky hit'n'run creatures though so running them can be a bit of a thing. This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?315230-The-most-unbalanced-monsters-for-each-CR-up-to-20-%28or-so%29) probably has a good compendium to start with and this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?419196-Most-Unbalanced-(Overpowered)-Monsters!/page2) adds a few more. Most of the stuff in that thread is good to go; few MM2 stuff here or there but you can easily weed those out.

Far as Dragons go, it's pretty easy to throw together their stock standard spell list: it's just Mage Armor + Shield + Blood Wind + Protection from Good; Scintillating Spells + Wraithstrike + Wings of Cover + Bladeweave; Greater Mighty Wallop + Greater Mage Armor + Heart of X (or maybe Ferocity of Sanguine Rage or something). Basically, just gish spells that enhance its fighting and cover its weaknesses. You can use the same one for all of 'em. Same with feats: just toss in Lingering Breath, Clinging Breath, Hover + Flyby Attack and maybe some spellcasting feats if it's a high level spellcasting Dragon. Just use stock lists and give all the same ones (or maybe make 3 feat templates: "flighty Dragon", "casty Dragon" and "breathy Dragon").

[HouseRules]

Party Size and Encounter Level Adjustment
1 ELA +4
2 ELA +2
3 ELA +1
4 ELA +0
5 or 6 ELA -1
7 or 8 ELA -2
9 to 12 ELA -3
13 to 16 ELA -4

[ShurikVch]

Check this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?315230-The-most-unbalanced-monsters-for-each-CR-up-to-20-(or-so)) :smallwink:

[Mike Miller]

Rust monster could be cruel if any of them are telling on metal without means to replace it.

[Telonius]

I'd put a Balor or an Ancient Brass Dragon over the Tarrasque.

[gogogome]

Check this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?315230-The-most-unbalanced-monsters-for-each-CR-up-to-20-(or-so)) :smallwink:

Thank you.


I'd put a Balor or an Ancient Brass Dragon over the Tarrasque.

I'm not ranking the creatures. I'm just trying to find the top 14.

[rferries]

At CR 1, a 4th-level kobold adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?528071-Monstrous-NPCs-(Finished)).

EDIT: nevermind, missed your "no advancing" stipulation.