Lizardfolk Tribe Hunting Trolls

[ComaVision]

Hi everyone, I've written myself into a bit of a corner and I'm trying to come up with an adequate solution for it before I get called on it. (This is all D&D 3.5e rules)

I'm running a hex-crawl type game (and ripping a bunch of stuff off from Kingmaker). There are a tribe of Lizardfolk that are only a few tens of kilometers from a troll base. I've already established that a hunting party of Lizardfolk (4 to 6 Lizardfolk) will occasionally hunt and kill a lone troll, given the opportunity.

These Lizardfolk have slightly better gear than the MM standard, and the warriors also have a level of Swordsage. Still, I can't come up with a way that they could reliably kill a lone troll without it being disastrously dangerous for them. The Lizardfolk have no spellcasters.

My initial thought was that they could trick the dumb troll into water and grapple it until drowning, since the troll would have to break the grapple with every hunter to get free. I had forgot that they still have to beat the troll in the initial grapple check 1 vs 1.

Does anyone have any thoughts for a mechanically reasonable way that the Lizardfolk could take out a troll?

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm... eggshell grenades, harpoons, sharktooth staffs, and bolas. Combine all of that with some shapesand to cage it after you immobilize it. Then roll it into a bog and let time do the work.

[ChaosStar]

Some Desert Wind Maneuvers, which they have access to via swordsage, deal Fire Damage, which Trolls can't regen against.

[flappeercraft]

Have them gang up and knockout the troll via ranged attacks. Then when its unconscious have one stop is breathing such as via punching his nose and closing his mouth while the others just CdG him to keep him down while he suffocates.

[lord_khaine]

Some Desert Wind Maneuvers, which they have access to via swordsage, deal Fire Damage, which Trolls can't regen against.

Its not dealing damage to the troll thats the issue.
The problem is that a single Troll can one-shot a lizardman with just a little luck.

Though to answer the OP.
Either hope your players are not paying more attention to it.
Thats actually pretty likely to happen, since it dont directly revolves around them :P

Else, give the lizardmen Hunters a level in Ranger?
The additional HP would make them a lot more survivable.
And hit/run tactics with javlins could perhaps wear the troll down.

[ViperMagnum357]

Regeneration meand hit and run is out, so ambush to start with, preferably knock the Troll unconscious with ranged attacks. Lizardfolk are usually stone-age level technology, which means javelins, shields and oversized clubs for the most part; however, they are likely to have access to nets and bolas as well. The latter if the Troll tries to rabbit, the former if it closes before they knock it out.

Tripping or entangling it while a typical hunting party of 6-8 individuals chucks javelins should drop a typical Troll in a hurry; once it is down, the group rushes it and starts pummeling it to keep it out, then goes for suffocation, drowning, or lighting a Torch to burn it with a coup-de-grace. Basically the same tactics a low level adventurer group would use if they were out of magic and restricted to mediocre weapons and equipment.

[Thurbane]

Trollbane (Dungeonscape p.37) is 90gp a vial. Possibly made by the tribal shaman or herbalist. Maybe each raiding party has one or two to use on a CDG on trolls - beat it down with regular attacks, then administer the CDG with a weapon that has a high critical multiplier.

[lord_khaine]

Trollbane (Dungeonscape p.37) is 90gp a vial. Possibly made by the tribal shaman or herbalist. Maybe each raiding party has one or two to use on a CDG on trolls - beat it down with regular attacks, then administer the CDG with a weapon that has a high critical multiplier.

Still utterly ignores the real problem.
That a Troll can kill a Lizardman raider in a single blow.


Tripping or entangling it while a typical hunting party of 6-8 individuals chucks javelins should drop a typical Troll in a hurry; once it is down, the group rushes it and starts pummeling it to keep it out, then goes for suffocation, drowning, or lighting a Torch to burn it with a coup-de-grace. Basically the same tactics a low level adventurer group would use if they were out of magic and restricted to mediocre weapons and equipment.

This is of course not easy either.
Regular Lizardfolk just have +1 to hit with ranged weapons against the trolls AC of 16.
meaning that its just 1/4 of all attacks that hits under perfect conditions.
And the Troll also heals about a single Javlin hit each round.

[Vizzerdrix]

Still utterly ignores the real problem.
That a Troll can kill a Lizardman raider in a single blow.

This is of course not easy either.
Regular Lizardfolk just have +1 to hit with ranged weapons against the trolls AC of 16.
meaning that its just 1/4 of all attacks that hits under perfect conditions.
And the Troll also heals about a single Javlin hit each round.

Then they need to attack at range, against touch AC, and in a manner that can't be healed. Gnome calculus from A&EG loaded with acid flasks, and bolas to pin it down. Lassos and reach weapons to finish it off. Eggshell grenades for defence.

[ComaVision]

Though to answer the OP.
Either hope your players are not paying more attention to it.
Thats actually pretty likely to happen, since it dont directly revolves around them :P


lol Very valid point.

I appreciate all the thoughts guys, there are several items listed here that I hadn't thought of. I think the Lizardfolk should have no problem baiting/ambushing a troll, so surrounding and tripping/binding up the troll is probably their best bet.

Khaine is definitely correct that my main concern is that going toe-to-toe makes the mortality rate of the Lizardfolk too damn high.

[lord_khaine]

Problem is of course, that i suspect Gnome stuff is far, far above the technical level of stone age Lizardmen? :smalltongue:
For that matter so is Acid flasks. Thats pretty complex alchemy, and your still going to need a -lot- of flasks to kill a troll.

Reach weapon for that matter is directly nececary, since Trolls already have reach on their own.
But yeah Lasso's can likely do a lot. But more because they are kinda broken.

In the end i suspect the easiest solution is just to avoid drawing attention towards this.
or wait, heck, is it -all- their warriors who have a level of swordsage?
I had not expected this were a tribe of ninja-lizards... :smalleek:

Well it changes a lot. just mix a couple Swordsage 2 lizards into the hunting pack and a regular troll should be much less troublesome.

[Maat Mons]

I suppose the safest bet would be to construct a buch of pit traps around their teritory ahead of time. Then, when their scouts report a troll, some brave soul goes out and lures it over to the nearest trap. Preferably someone with a Barbarian level, so he can outrun the Troll if the plan doesn't work.

You could get a lot more economy out of Alchemist's Fire if the guys throwing it have the Sneak Attack ability. And if you approach from downwind, a Troll isn't guaranteed to notice your presence until you're within 15 feet.

[Draconi Redfir]

... ya'll're overthinking this.

just have one or more of them carry a burning torch, either as their main weapon, or in their offhand. Maybe bring some breakable flasks of oil.

Lizard runs in, makes a cut, and then they or someone else quickly makes a pass over the wound with the torch.

If you're going for hit-and-run tactics, have them run in quick succession. Lizard #1 runs past throwing oil all over the Troll, Lizards #2-5 run past with their weapons, making any hits and attacks they can, and then lizard #6 runs in and lights the oil on fire, cauterizing the wounds and preventing regeneration. the Troll gets it's turn, then you rinse and repeat.

[ComaVision]

@Draconi The problem is that if the troll gets a fair turn he's probably going to kill a Lizardfolk.

@Maat Yeah, I think some advance traps are a given. Some anchored bear-traps could definitely do some work too. As Khaine mentions though, I think most alchemy is out of their reach. Craft Alchemy actually specifically requires a spellcaster, doesn't it?

@Khaine All of the warriors of the tribe are Swordsages, yeah. Not my initial intention but one of my PCs is a Lizardfolk Swordsage and has gotten buddy-buddy with the tribe. Longspears are definitely doable though.

[Draconi Redfir]

@Draconi The problem is that if the troll gets a fair turn he's probably going to kill a Lizardfolk.

if you light him on fire, he might spend a good ammount of his turn putting it out. Otherwise, if these Lizardfolk have been hunting Trolls for generations, i'd imagine they've specialized in speed and hit-and-run. Some feat and abilitity combination that lets them make a full double-move with an attack midway through or something, allowing them to outrun the Troll and stay out of it's range.

[Maat Mons]

The problem with bear traps is that even Animals, with Intelligence 1 or 2, can figure out to chew their own foot off to get out. And since Trolls regrow limbs, they'd probably be much quicker go for that option.



A running Troll covers 120 feet per round. True, he can't attack that turn. But he can put himself in reach of a Lizardman and make an attack of opportunity when it tries to get away (or attack it next turn if it doesn't).



A coordinated strike from four Lizardfolk that each have 4 levels in Swordsage stands a pretty good chance of killing a Troll before it even gets one turn. Fan the Flames is a standard action, so they can use it in a surprise round. And it requires an attack roll, so Assassins' Stance adds on an extra +2d6.

If three of the four Lizardfolk hit with their ranged touch attacks, that's 24d6 fire damage, which has better than a 99% chance of putting that Troll at -1 or fewer HP. If you customize the elite assassin lizards with the Elite Array, each one can have a 95% chance of hitting the Troll's flat-footed touch AC, so a little better than an 85% 98% chance that at least three out of four attacks will hit.

Of course, more Lizards means a greater chance of success.

Edit: I originally mathed wrong.

[Blackhawk748]

Does anyone have any thoughts for a mechanically reasonable way that the Lizardfolk could take out a troll?

Well, Longspears are always helpful, that combined with Desert Wind Maneuvers as well as intelligent use of the terrain means that 4-6 Lizardfolk Swordsages could very reliably take out a single troll. Have one of them have a bola or something to help them out if you're that concerned.

So long as they stay out of full attack range (the Longspears will help here) they shouldn't have an issue. It's still going to be dangerous, but a Lizardfolk is about equal to a lvl 3 PC...more like 2.5 but its workable.

[Saintheart]

Hit it from above to start with. Lizardfolk live in swamps, that usually includes tall trees. Trolls don't have Climb ranks and while their STR check is +7, it knocks them down to one quarter speed, so even at double move they're only pushing 15 feet up the tree. Next, throw marbles at it. Trolls don't have Balance ranks, that renders them flatfooted, which means they're open to sneak attack.

Child of Shadow stance - the warriors are all Swordsage - grants concealment against all melee and ranged attacks so long as the character moves at least 10 feet per round, which should increase survivability if they hit and run. The trick with most of the Desert Wind maneuvers at level 1 is going to be that some of them allow Fort saves, which a troll has in spades.

Tanglefoot Bags work as escape mechanisms: if it's a hit (ranged touch attack isn't that hard), then the opponent at the very least can only move at half speed. (I seem to remember tanglefoot bags also shut down charging or running, but the SRD entry doesn't say so, but either way, lizardfolk have the same speed as trolls, meaning they can outrun a troll they can't kill if it's been hit with goo.) I like several of them as an opening salvo: at touch AC of 11, that's literally a 50/50 chance of a nerf to movement, which is a big part of what matters when fighting a troll.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It would be really useful to have a crusader. Let's say there is one crusader commanding the group. The commander is using Iron Guard's Glare, the skirmishers are using Step of the Wind and have Improved Trip and 16 strength (elite array 14/12/13/15/10/8, final stats 16/12/15/13/10/8).

Lure the troll into difficult terrain, possibly of your own creation. Throw nets to slow the troll, and then bolas to trip it. Once the troll is prone, swoop in with reach weapons.

The lizardfolk skirmishers trip at +11 against the troll's +10, but their to-hit even against an entangled troll is quite bad (no proficiency), so it may take a while to get the troll down.
Once prone, the worst the troll can do is full attack at -1/-1/-6 (-4 Iron Guard's Glare, -4 prone, -2 entangled), or stand up (provoking five or six AoOs) and make a single attack at +3.
The troll takes -4 to AC (prone) and -4 to Dex (entangled), and the skirmishers get +2 to hit it from Step of the Wind, and another +2 because they're flanking.

Judicious applications of Clinging Shadow Strike, Stone Bones, Combat Expertise, and armour should reduce the risk to the lizardfolk to acceptable levels (they can be at AC 21 with Expertise and a chain shirt). The commander can use Vanguard Strike and Leading the Attack to add +4 to his allies' attack rolls, relying on Steely Resolve and Crusader's Strike to survive any hits by the troll. If the commander lands a Covering Strike, the group can disengage without provoking, which may be a good idea if it manages to get up.

Overall, I think it has a pretty decent chance of working, though I'd have to play it out to know for sure. It's heavily terrain-dependent, of course, but then hunting big dangerous things often is.

[Bohandas]

It occurs to me you could probably stake then through the heart like vampires. The presence of a big solid object in the way would prevent the heart from re-forming

[lord_khaine]

It occurs to me you could probably stake then through the heart like vampires. The presence of a big solid object in the way would prevent the heart from re-forming

Its like you havent read a single post in the entire thread before replying?
The problem isnt killing the troll. Its not BEING killed by the troll.


A coordinated strike from four Lizardfolk that each have 4 levels in Swordsage stands a pretty good chance of killing a Troll before it even gets one turn. Fan the Flames is a standard action, so they can use it in a surprise round. And it requires an attack roll, so Assassins' Stance adds on an extra +2d6.

Thats perhaps overkill though? :smalltongue:
A level 4 lizardman swordsage is about the same as a level 6 character.
It should honestly stand a chance of taking out a troll solo.


Hit it from above to start with. Lizardfolk live in swamps, that usually includes tall trees. Trolls don't have Climb ranks and while their STR check is +7, it knocks them down to one quarter speed, so even at double move they're only pushing 15 feet up the tree. Next, throw marbles at it. Trolls don't have Balance ranks, that renders them flatfooted, which means they're open to sneak attack.

So.. when we got 6 lizards in a tree, T H R O W I N G sharp stuff.
Whats going to keep the troll from simply going FU and walking away from the tree? :smalltongue:

Also, when you throw marbles in a swarmp, then they tend to sink..

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Maybe boomerangs with the Boomerang Daze feat? Would make it a lot easier to keep away from the troll and hammer it with ranged attacks. You'd need several hunters with the feat, though, to ensure the troll failed at least one Fort save.

Harpoons got mentioned earlier in the thread. I'm thinking harpoons with ropes; tie the rope to a tree. Either the troll gets pinned down by multiple ropes in different directions or it's wasting its turns cutting/bursting the ropes (or it starts dragging broken trees behind it, which will at least slow it down). If it's stupid enough, it might tear out the harpoons rather than cut the ropes, effectively doubling the damage it's taking.

[Saintheart]

Harpoons got mentioned earlier in the thread. I'm thinking harpoons with ropes; tie the rope to a tree. Either the troll gets pinned down by multiple ropes in different directions or it's wasting its turns cutting/bursting the ropes (or it starts dragging broken trees behind it, which will at least slow it down). If it's stupid enough, it might tear out the harpoons rather than cut the ropes, effectively doubling the damage it's taking.

Harpoons come with 30 feet of rope included, happily. The only problem is that it's a ranged exotic weapon, which burns up a feat. That being said, it might be worth it from trollhunting lizardfolk - the harpoon targets the Reflex save to lodge in, which is the troll's weakest save. It has no Heal ranks, so it'll go straight WIS check at DC 15 to pull the harpoon out without taking further damage, and as said that still amounts to a full-round action to do -- which is probably the most valuable aspect of the weapon.

[Albions_Angel]

Um, guys? These lizards dont hunt trolls as a matter of course. They do so


given the opportunity.

They dont need Trollbane, or harpoons. Those are specialist troll hunting equipment. These guys dont "hunt" trolls, they snag the odd one when they can. Its dangerous, they might lose members, but its a lot of meat so why not. Its like early humans. We hunted bison and auroch, and sometimes there would be a dedicated mammoth hunting trip, but the likelihood is, we stuck to deer and rabbits MOST of the time, and either set up special trips for big game, or took them by chance if they were in trouble.

So, Javelins, yes, bolas and nets, yes, spears, yes. All equipment a group of lizardfolk hunters would have. But they arnt LOOKING for trolls. They wont carry trollbane, or harpoons, because those are useless for the other game they are after. Well, ok, the harpoon isnt useless, but a bit redundant.

So, how does a hunting party take down a troll? With difficulty.

Either they use traps and cunning, luring the troll through snares and such, or into bogs, or herding it off a cliff. Or they ambush a lone troll and just go for it. Hammer it with javelins, hoping to get it down fast. Then its in with longspears as a mass. Try to keep it back, keep it confused. Trolls arnt smart, and just because they regen, doesnt mean they dont feel pain. After the javelins, the hunters would rush in, using the spears to keep the troll at reach, jabbing at it. With luck, the troll retreats, not wanting to step into the points (it likely wont understand AOO tactics, but it WILL equate going closer to the spears with getting hurt). It might break through the line though, and THATS OK. This is a Mammoth equivalent they are bringing down. Sometimes the hunts will go really, really badly wrong. The troll might oneshot a lizardfolk. Equally, it might not, it might instead clip one. The others should continue their stutterstep backwards, keeping it in reach. But the one that got tagged? Its a lizardfolk. Its got 2 claws and a bite attack and it just got hurt. Lizardfolk are cunning, but they still have that brutal reptilian
streak. It WILL go all out. And likely die.

I dont know what you call a hunting party, but I would say, probably 5-8 individuals? If any one party loses 2 members to a troll, the attempt is abandoned, and they flee. The Troll is the same speed, but likely wont follow. It has fresh meat right there.

EDIT - TURNS OUT TROLLS HAVE REACH AND NO FEAR OF DEATH

Lets do some very basic number crunching. I wont take into account critical for now, lets just see what happens.

Hunting party of 5. Ambush. 5 Javelins against FF AC 14. They need 13 to hit. 40% hit, or 2, dealing 1d6+1 damage each, an average of 9 total damage.

Into initiative, troll has +2 to the lizardfolk's +0 so it likely goes first. Uh oh, it just healed 4 of that 9, and closes on the lizards (hopefully the lizards were smart enough to throw one handed, and hold their spear in the other hand, but they wont get AOOs because the troll also has reach. Troll needs a +6 to hit, so will do so more likely than not. It likely doesnt kill the Lizardfolk though. It needs to roll max or one less than max to do that.

Ok, 5 lizards left, all with spears. Pokey poke. They need 14s, so less than 2 hit. Oops, this isnt looking good. Troll is now in range and claw, claw, rend kills a fresh one, while bite kills the injured one. Lizardfolk flee.

Yeah, not good. They need to trap it, or get it already injured. Or in the water. Any other way requires specialist equipment that a standard Lizard hunting party who just snag the occasional lone troll WONT HAVE.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Lets do some very basic number crunching.
Don't forget that these are swordsage lizardfolk, which means they get the elite array, martial weapon proficiency, light armour, maneuvers, and 3rd-level NPC WBL. At the very least, that's +2 melee attack and +2 damage, +4 AC, and +1 attack and damage from upgrading their longspears to masterwork glaives. Depending on the stat distribution, they get up to +2 AC, ranged attack, and initiative as well. Lizardfolk in chain shirts could be at AC 23 quite easily, with the right stance.

So, five javelins, hit on an 11, 1d6+3 damage per hit, average 16.25.
Five masterwork glaive charges with Burning Blade, hit on a 10, 1d10+4+1d6+2 damage per hit, average 41.25.
Flanking (with Island of Blades or otherwise) and certain stances can increase the damage further.

At this point, the troll has taken about 57.5 points of damage, and it's healed only 5 hit points. On the second round, it gets knocked out, possibly taking one lizardfolk with it. And that's just the stupid method, without entangle/trip/Iron Guard's Glare.

[Maat Mons]

Okay, I guess we haven't all been assuming the same motivations for Lizardfolk to want to kill a Troll.

The way I see it, since the Lizardfolk and Trolls live near to eachother, wandering Trolls pose a danger to Lizardfolk civilians. If a Troll is getting uncomfortably close to to a Lizardfolk settlement, a team will be dispatched to deal with it.

Trolls being tough and dangerous opponents, I figure the Lizardfolk would send out the elite troops. Maybe they'd even have a dedicate group of Troll hunters, employing special training and tactics to ensure the borders of Lizardfolk land remain secure against these hulking brutes.

I don't think Lizardfolk see a Troll and say "Oh boy, this is a good chance to score some meat." I think they see a Troll and say "Oh no! Our hatchlings could be in danger!"

[Albions_Angel]

Don't forget that these are swordsage lizardfolk,

Oh I hadnt forgotten. I assumed (probably incorrectly, and certainly based on my own style of world building) that their warriors, who were called out as SS, were not the same as their hunters. No doubt, their hunters can fight. But to me, the warrior cast largely sits in the village, surrounding the chief, and eating everyone elses stuff/going on raids.

If they are elite array and are SS, then yeah, they stand a MUCH better chance.

[Dalmosh]

The swamp itself is problematic.

In a hilly, scrubby area such a team could have an array of concealed pit traps covered with flammable brush, lure it in and burn it alive. They'd need to be big pits though.

Swamps are damp and flame retardant though, and pits would rapidly fill with water depending on the season.

In many areas that would work in a dry season though.

[Albions_Angel]

Swamps can still work though. In both D&D and in generic European folk lore, there are loads of creatures that lure travellers into swamps. They are very, very dangerous. People can and do just disappear.

Quick sand, tar pits, peat bogs, sucking mud, sudden deeps, marsh fire, all hazards real world bogs have. And then you have a whole host of magical creatures in D&D that will kill things but not eat them, or only eat a bit of them, or can be scared off.

The lizards are aquatic. Most of those hazards arnt hazards to things that can swim. They could lure the troll into a bog and hammer it from range. Or over some marsh fire. Or into a harpy nest.