Kobolds vs Orcs

[napoleon_in_rag]

I am designing a dungeon for a party of 3rd and 4th level adventurers. The upper level will consist of a large area of natural water cut caverns with Orcs occupying one small section and Kobolds occupying the opposite corner. The rest of the caverns will be occupied by a random hodgepodge of typical dungeon denizens. The Orcs and Kobolds have been fighting over resources and control of the caverns for years. The Orcs can't destroy the Kobold's because the Kobold base is defended in depth by some nasty traps. The Kobolds can't directly attack the Orc base because the Orcs are much tougher fighters. So a stalemate exists.

The way to the lower levels is hidden but both the Orcs and the Kobolds know where it is. I see this going one of three ways: The PCs help the Orcs destroy the Kobold base and the Orcs reveal the way to the lower level, the PCs help the Kobolds destroy the Orc base and the Kobolds reveal the way to the lower level, or the PCs somehow force the Orcs/Kobolds into revealing the way to the lower level. If the PCs really do something to engender the Kobolds/Orcs trust, they might even get a safe haven for exploring the lower levels.

So my questions for the forums are:

1) What are the resources that the Orcs and Kobolds are fighting over? I intend for there to be a large subterranean lake in the middle of the level so I thought that they might be competing over fishing. Should there be another, magical resource? Maybe a fungus that can be used in healing potions. Maybe a mineral that can be mined.

2) I need a lot of nasty sneaky traps for the Kobold base. What kind of trap would a kobold set for an Orc?

3) The Orc base will be defended in much more of a straight forward manner in a way that gives the Orcs some kind of advantage based on their racial attributes. What would this look like? And how would a sneaky Kobold get around this?

Thanks in advance for any great ideas that come up.

[Kane0]

1: Edible crystals that grow in the cavern, a creature that resides in the cavern that makes for good clothing/food/labor, some culturally significant plant or mineable stone. Whatever it is, it better be worth staying around and potentially dying for.

2: Kobolds are both smaller and lighter than orcs, so lots of tight spaces and fragile things underfoot. Kobolds also have pack tactics, so their defenses should feature plenty of murder holes to pepper incoming threats from with the benefits of cover. Orcs are also loud and clumsy compared to Kobolds, so alarms should be plentiful which allow kobolds to raise additional traps and defenses including behind the invaders to make escape difficult.

3: Both have darkvision, so no open lighting. Vision beyond 60 feet should be restricted, so expect winding passages and tight corners rather than long sight lines. Kobolds are weak, orcs are strong. Heavy gates and other barriers that just need a good shove or lift to open are simple and effective. Orcs also have their aggressive trait to close into melee quickly, and can be used to block off escape of fleeing creatures. A couple of trained beasts in good spots can help with any kobolds that manage to bypass the obstacles and lookouts.

Edit: Some simple traps:
- That's not mud, thats oil/grease/tar. And that's a flask of alchemist fire being hurled at us...
- Weak bridge / flimsy planks over a fall. And plenty of cover for archers on the far side...
- Crawling through a passageway, getting a bucket of vermin tossed in with you.
- A passageway you can walk through, finally! But it's uphill, and something is getting poured/rolled down on us...
- An abandoned cooking fire, maybe we can stop and rest. 80' away, you can be seen pretty clearly by the archers...
- Lots more here (https://mfov.magehandpress.com/2016/12/tuckers-kobolds.html)

[Tvtyrant]

Kobolds are very small, in 3.5 they could squeeze through spaces for tiny creatures. Their tunnels can be made inacessibly small, and with 1 inch holes in the sides and top so things can be dumped into them from other tunnels.

You can use an idol or other magic artifact on/in the lake. A statue that grants minor wishes at sporadic intervals (say the full moon going overhead, they have no idea there is a connection.) Holding it at all times is the only way to guarantee the wish.

[Great Dragon]

Some great ideas.

One thing I thought of:
Getting fresh water (and anything else) from the Lake requires both Kobolds and Orcs to use their unique abilities in their tactics;

Since there are most likely several open areas near the Lake, but most likely only a few (less than 4) easily usable beaches.

The Kobolds travel in packs (6-10) since even one Kobold getting near an Orc is all it takes for Pack Tactics to work for the rest of the Kobolds - even at range, which is preferred: see below.

The Orcs might feel that getting the Lake Duty is not very wanted thing, so encountering more than 4-6 Orcs is rare.
So, those that end up going are ever alert against Kobold Ambushes in the tunnels. Once at the Lake, the Orcs have a slight advantage on the beaches, since they can rush up on Kobolds less than 60 feet away and still attack.

Because both sides are in a stalemate as far as their Bases are concerned, both sides send out groups to the Lake at random.

When the Party enters the picture, both sides see an opportunity to use them against the other.

Murder-Hobos are not likely to be able to get information on the location of the entrance to the Lower Level(s).

Also, both sides might know at least something of what is down there.
Since there is nothing down there of much value to either side, each side might have completely different (limited) knowledge of what dangers and creatures reside down there.

Another thing: Magic.
How much does each side have, and what kind?

Kartulmak doesn't have Clerics, but both Sorcerer (Draconic and Divine Soul) and Warlock (Fiend?) types of Magic could be available to Kobolds.

Where Orcs can have Clerical magic.
War Domain would be the most common.

One of the balancing things is that those members (of both sides) that have it avoid directly getting involved. (Considering themselves much too important to risk in direct combat).

But, these magical individuals could be nasty surprise for the Party!

[napoleon_in_rag]

Kobolds are very small, in 3.5 they could squeeze through spaces for tiny creatures. Their tunnels can be made inacessibly small, and with 1 inch holes in the sides and top so things can be dumped into them from other tunnels.

You can use an idol or other magic artifact on/in the lake. A statue that grants minor wishes at sporadic intervals (say the full moon going overhead, they have no idea there is a connection.) Holding it at all times is the only way to guarantee the wish.




Another thing: Magic.
How much does each side have, and what kind?

Kartulmak doesn't have Clerics, but both Sorcerer (Draconic and Divine Soul) and Warlock (Fiend?) types of Magic could be available to Kobolds.

Where Orcs can have Clerical magic.
War Domain would be the most common.

One of the balancing things is that those members (of both sides) that have it avoid directly getting involved. (Considering themselves much too important to risk in direct combat).

But, these magical individuals could be nasty surprise for the Party!

I was thinking about these posts last night. What if on an Island in the center of the lake, there stands a rock/ obelisk/ macguffin with the soul of a fiend imprisoned in it. The fiend feeds on strife and anger and has made a pact with one Orc and one Kobold, making them level 2-3 warlocks in exchange for keeping the fighting going.

Kind of like a combination between Howard's "Red Nails", Star Trek TOS "Day of the Dove", and Kurosawa's "Yojimbo". (I never said I was original.)

[Great Dragon]

@napoleon_in_rag:
Nice. It's been too long since I've seen ST:OS.
And I have yet to see the other references.

Depending on how complicated the OP wants to make RP, there could even be several individuals (on each side) that want Control Over their Tribe.

Like the Orcs are lead by the equivalent of a 3rd level BarBearian, but the War Cleric of Grummsh wants to be the Chief - which is secretly undermined by napoleon_in_rag's Fiend Warlock.

Meanwhile, the Kobolds are lead by a (female) 3rd level Divine Sorcerer, but is opposed by the (male) 3rd level Thief Rogue "Trapmaster". With the (either) Kobold Fiend Warlock mixing things up - mostly against the Orcs.....

[napoleon_in_rag]

@napoleon_in_rag:
Nice. It's been too long since I've seen ST:OS.
And I have yet to see the other references.

You are missing out. In my humble opinion, Akira Kurosawa's "Yojimbo" is the greatest samurai movie ever made. In it, a Ronin enters a town with two rival gangs. It was remade as a western for the US- Sergio Leone's "Fistful of Dollars". This is a short documentary on the film I found on You Tube. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dUfiNip0UI&t=142s)

Robert Howard's "Red Nails" is one of the original "Conan the Cimmerian" stories where Conan enters a city with two feuding factions. The fued is being manipulated by an ancient sorceress. Not great literature but it makes a great audiobook. Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Nails)


Depending on how complicated the OP wants to make RP, there could even be several individuals (on each side) that want Control Over their Tribe.

Like the Orcs are lead by the equivalent of a 3rd level BarBearian, but the War Cleric of Grummsh wants to be the Chief - which is secretly undermined by napoleon_in_rag's Fiend Warlock.

Meanwhile, the Kobolds are lead by a (female) 3rd level Divine Sorcerer, but is opposed by the (male) 3rd level Thief Rogue "Trapmaster". With the (either) Kobold Fiend Warlock mixing things up - mostly against the Orcs.....

I might use some of this. Normally I break my humanoid/minion monsters into squads of 4-6 for purposes of initiative, morale checks, etc. Each squad is led by a "Sergeant" who has max hp, maybe better equipment, and slightly better ability scores. For Example: A Kobold "Sergeant" would have 10hp, a 16 DX, and a 9 WI. I always increase the WI because it effects the squad's morale checks.

Maybe I will use a Lvl 1 War Cleric of Gruumsh or Kobold Rogue as a sergeant running 2-3 squads.

[Great Dragon]

Each squad is led by a "Sergeant" who has max hp, maybe better equipment, and slightly better ability scores. For Example: A Kobold "Sergeant" would have 10hp, a 16 DX, and a 9 WI.
Yeah, I just got the 2nd level Party I'm running for into Cragmaw Castle (LMoP) and the Rogue took out the Cook that had more than twice the HP (12) of the other Goblins (5) in one Attack with Sneak Attack! (Rolled 11 with 2d6 +4 Dex = 15)

I usually use Charisma for most Moral Checks.
Orcs might use Strength
Hobgoblins might use Intelligence
Minions of High Level (CR) BBEGs rarely have to check for Morale.

For Low Tier, I tend to give Intelligent Humanoids only one option from either a Class or Subclass.
(Obviously, this doesn't always work;
Like with Sorcerers, Clerics, etc)

This way, even if the “Monster” is the same “Level” as one of the Party Members, the PC that actually has that Class/Subclass still outshines the “monster”.

Also, Don't forget the “monster” versions of the Races.

Like the Kobold “Trap Master” Rogue might have the “Kobold Inventor Monster” as their Background.

If created as a Full PC: I'd use the Abilities in the book; give Investigation and Perception as skills, with Smith's Tools. Then add the Rogue's skills: Stealth, Deception, Insight, and Acrobatics. And Thieves Tools.
Each DM can pick what skills get Expertise.

If people are interested - I can come up with more when I get access to the books.

[Kurt Kurageous]

You are asking about tactics when the stalemate is on the strategic level.

Tactical first.

Kobold defenses: Long slender tunnels with murder holes. Kobolds are also good with subterranean fungi farming. So give them access to yellow mold as well as the usual bugs. They probably raise giant centipedes or other dangerous things. They may have the ability to flood the tunnels using water that could contain toxins, centipedes, etc. to keep the orcs from widening the tunnels and counter attacking.

The kobolds cannot stand in the open against orcs. If the kobolds must seize a location, they could only do it temporarily. They would need to excavate (and later partially collapse) tunnels that allow them to raid the orcs. Then they would come with "grenades" (clay pots) containing yellow mold, green slime (another harvested item) to do as much harm as possible before running away.

The orcs need space. The aggressive trait is best exploited with at least 30' of clear terrain. How about making the terrain difficult? The orcs could still move 30' over it. Don't forget that orcs are respectable miners. They could be counter-mining the kobolds and using the spoils (loose rock) to build channels/lanes that push kobolds into the open, away from walls. An orc guard post must be easy to get out of (aggressive trait) rather than defend.

Tactical conclusions? The orc standing orders are to kill the kobolds on sight. The orcs and are always worried about digging/scratching/tapping sounds near the sleep area. The kobolds rarely attack, and then only to raid. But their raids can be devastating.

Strategically, the orcs are frustrated. Morale is probably low because they lack the ability to strike a significant blow against the kobolds (conquest!) and live in fear of kobold raids into rest areas or isolated guard posts. OTOH, the kobolds lack access to surface food resources (meat) to out-breed the orcs and are living on mushrooms. They know their path to victory depends on the orcs giving up and leaving. For now, it's miserable for both sides. And the kobolds know how to suffer.

See also US ground forces strategy in Viet Nam.

I'm not sure how the party would get past the orcs without an alliance, and I'm not sure the orcs would be open to one unless the party planned to assault the kobolds. But that's for you to figure in roleplay.

[Great Dragon]

@napoleon_in_rag
I think we are getting outside the “One Shot Adventure”, and more into the “Module” Area, here!!!

As stated by Kurt Kurageous, there is a difference between Tactical and Strategic planning.

Careful study of the Dungeon Map is needed.
And asking Questions based on suggestions made by the people here.

0) Exactly what other "typical Dungeon Denizens" are there?
Where are their Lair(s);
and what are the areas they normally wander/patrol?

If left to completely Johnny-on-Spot Random Rolls, it's a little harder to figure in.

How often do these two Groups have to deal with these Denizens; and do both Kobolds and Orcs have a means to avoid/bypass them?

These Denizens could be another Strategic reason why the Main Lairs of both Groups are "safe" from constant siege.

(1) What about the underground area causes limitations?
For example: just how much counter/mining is possible before the area becomes unstable?

Both sides would keep their sleeping and breeding areas as far away from any areas that can easily be tunneled to. The Kobold fungus farms could be a source of potential frustration, since while the Orcs don't really eat that, they would love destroying it to cause the Kobolds even more grief.

(2) Next, is knowing as much as possible (as the DM) about the Lake.

What lives in the Lake?
Fish? Crabs? Koa-toa? Aboleth?!

What beach(es) can each side easily get to?
How much about other areas of the Lake does each side know?

Perhaps the Island in the middle of the Lake is unknown to (almost) everyone? The Trapped-in-McGuffin Fiend would most likely prefer that….

(3) How close to the surface are these two groups? (A Regional Map could be handy)

While the Kobolds don't need to access the surface to survive - the Orcs might constantly hunt for meat, and the Kobolds like to Ambush the Orc Hunting Party on their way home: Mostly hit-grab-run stuff. Annoys the Orcs, and the chance for Free Meet!!!

Also, over-hunting can be a serious concern.
Lower resources will cause the Orcs problems, and hunting too often can attract unwanted attention: Adventurers!!! (NPC Druids and Rangers, etc)

Do the Orcs raise animals for food?
Sheep and Goats are (fairly) easy.
But Cows or Deer need lots of grazing land.
* Orc Shepard - oh, the shame!!! LoL!!
******
As stated, how much changes upon contact with the PCs, is part of the fun!!!

[napoleon_in_rag]

@napoleon_in_rag
I think we are getting outside the “One Shot Adventure”, and more into the “Module” Area, here!!!

Originally, this was going to be the level on the way to something else, but I can see this going several sessions by itself. It will be very much a sandbox where it will go where the players take it.



Careful study of the Dungeon Map is needed.
And asking Questions based on suggestions made the people here.

(1) What about the underground area causes limitations?
For example: just how much counter/mining is possible before the area becomes unstable?

Both sides would keep their sleeping and breeding areas as far away from any areas that can easily be tunneled to. The Kobold fungus farms could be a source of potential frustration, since while the Orcs don't really eat that, they would love destroying it to cause the Kobolds even more grief.

(2) Next, is knowing as much as possible (as the DM) about the Lake.

What lives in the Lake?
Fish? Crabs? Koa-toa? Aboleth?!

What beach(es) can each side easily get to?
How much about other areas of the Lake does each side know?

Perhaps the Island in the middle of the Lake is unknown to (almost) everyone? The Trapped-in-McGuffin Fiend would most likely prefer that….



I don't have a map, just some loose sketches. The natural caverns have been created by thousands of years of water flowing through limestone. Currently, two tributaries flow into the large central lake. The lake empties into larger river that empties out a cave mouth to the outside. This is how the PCs will enter the cavern, initially.

There are many other caves that the water used to flow through or the water only flows through in times of flood. Many of these have a sandy bottom from centuries of accumulated silt/ debris.

I see the Kobold and Orc bases starting as natural caverns which have expanded by a network of mines.The limestone is pretty stable though when mining some areas will need supports. The Bases are on opposite sides of the Lake. There are several natural bridges/fords (choke points) to cross the rivers and tributaries. Both bases will have hidden back doors to the outside.

I see the lake having several types of fish edible for both Orcs and Kobolds. Perhaps a larger fish that feeds on smaller fish, Kobolds, and Orcs.

[Great Dragon]

@napoleon_in_rag:
Looks like you got most of Level One figured out, then.

As for the Lake - maybe a fresh water Giant Octopus/Squid to feed on Kobolds/Orcs?

So, what's the plan for 2nd and 3rd levels?

[napoleon_in_rag]

@napoleon_in_rag:
Looks like you got most of Level One figured out, then.

As for the Lake - maybe a fresh water Giant Octopus/Squid to feed on Kobolds/Orcs?

So, what's the plan for 2nd and 3rd levels?

Good Question. I originally had a more typical dungeon planned but that now seems anticlimactic...

[Great Dragon]

Well, if you don't already have a plan, you can just do Random Rolls on the Monster (I figure on the CR 5) Charts in both the DMG and Xanathar's (Underdark) to get some initial ideas....

Here's my $0.02.
1d4 Vampire Spawn (CR 5 each)
Hiding out on Level Two near the Hidden Entrance, and "Feeding" on whatever they can catch. When the PCs enter the area, these undead can't resist the chance for a "real meal"!!!! Because none of them want to "share" - maybe only one at a time....

Of course, being inexperienced at being Vampires, they all keep their coffins in the same location......