Sorcerer / Wizard hybrid class

[Moxxmix]

Part 1:

This is kinda vague, but I mostly see one of two approaches to what seems people seem to see sorcerer as:

1) A Wizard with metamagic instead of lots of regular spells, that's able to go super blasty or super buffy.

2) An innate caster, as differentiated from the learned casters (Wizards and Bards) and the casters who were granted power (Clerics and Warlocks). I'd consider Druid to be another mostly innate caster.


People call it powerful, but that's really only from the viewpoint of someone using an optimized Type 1 Sorcerer. If you view Sorcerer as a Type 2, it's really crappy. A Type 2 Sorcerer has the most problems benefiting from metamagic, and having limited known spells, and that's where many of the arguments over whether Sorcerer needs fixing seem to arise.

A Type 1 Sorcerer has a powerful metamagic combo that it can use, and people build explicitly for those combos. Because they are building for those specific combos, they don't really need a huge number of spells.

A Type 2 Sorcerer tends to be built thematically, though, and metamagic becomes something to patch on after the fact. It's entirely possible that metamagic will be completely useless to the character, effectively wiping out a huge portion of the supposed power of the class, and leaving you with a weak and anemic character. This is the side that most often wants more spells (or variations on spell effects), because the tiny number of granted spells doesn't allow building and playing the character to theme.


When I choose to build a Sorcerer, it's because I want an innate caster of some sort. I do not choose it for the metamagic. Metamagic is just the window dressing that the system uses to give the innate caster something interesting to do. I would absolutely give up metamagic for a different set of window dressings (eg: more archtype abilities).

For someone who chooses Sorcerer for the metamagic, however, the fact that they are innate casters is just window dressing. The purpose of the class is to provide this specific mechanic, the same way that the Barbarian is just the chassis for the Rage mechanic.


So, I see most attempts to 'fix' Sorcerer as stumbling over this dichotomy, where people try to satisfy both types of player without breaking the game, and end up not really helping either.

The first question, then, is: Are you trying to fix the metamagic caster, or the innate caster?

--- ~~~ ---

Part 2:

Why is the Sorcerer the innate caster? Is this something that intrinsically needs its own class, or could you reskin a Wizard for your purpose? (IE: Are the complaints just coming from people who chose the wrong class?)

Well, in theory, a reskinned Wizard seems reasonable. An Enchantress could be a Wizard following the School of Enchantment (with 10th level ability similar to Twin Spell metamagic). A Pyromancer could be a Wizard following the Shool of Evocation (with abilities similar to Careful Spell and Empowered Spell). In fact, pretty much all the Wizard schools give you some metamagic-like ability that matches the school, so you're even getting a little of the flavor of the Sorcerer, but without the headaches of metamagic trap choices.

The main problem is that the Wizard class is explicitly not an innate caster. They have spellbooks, can transcribe spells, do ritual magic, etc. Also, the Wizard archetypes are focused on schools of magic, whereas Sorcerer archetypes are focused on the character's background/ancestry/origin (eg: draconic ancestry, wild magic, storm mage, etc).

If I want to build an ice witch, whose power is intrinsic in her nature, striking with the weight of glaciers and the biting winds of the blizzard, Sorcerer is where I look, because that's Sorcerer's entire gimmick. However when I actually try to build the character, I'm stuck with horribly limited spell selection and mostly useless metamagics. All the power of the class is paid into the metamagics, and I don't have the versatility (even aside from the limited ice spell options) to play the character how I'd want. It seems like a garbage class, and I'm trapped, not sure how to fix it.

On the other hand, I could make an Evocation Wizard mostly specialized in ice spells, gaining a couple metamagic-like abilities that fit the character design, and enough known spells to feel like I can actually play an innate caster — a caster who can wield a specific type of magic in interesting and creative ways. Rather than Twin Spell or Hasten Spell as a way for innate casters to show they can manipulate magic, it's more like, I can cast a frost bolt (aka Fire Bolt with ice), create a sheet of ice (Grease), freeze the air (Fog Cloud), summon a storm (Ice Storm), etc. The only problem is the facade of the class itself. She is not a "Wizard". She never went to school for her magic. She doesn't write spells down in tomes. Ritual magic means, "Spend a lot of time casting this spell for an impressive effect", not, "Let me cast this spell without expending a spell slot."

Anyway, when I look at it like that, "more spells" is the way I want to express my versatility with magic as a result of being an innate caster, not "highly specialized gimmick that only works with a handful of spells".

--- ~~~ ---

Part 3:

That still leaves us with conflicts of flavor. Draconic or giant ancestry (PHB and UA), or being a Storm Sorcerer, etc, brings flavor different than the schools of magic. And in the other direction, Wizard is still heavily the "learned magic" class. But you can't just take the Storm Sorcerer archetype and stuff it in the Wizard class. On the other hand, if you're aiming at this type of character construction, you don't need metamagic at all. And without metamagic, Sorcerer has... basically nothing. You just get Font of Magic, which is a more flexible variant of Arcane Recovery — mostly just minor flavor.

On the archetype side, Wizard gets archetype abilities at 2, 6, 10, and 14. Sorcerer gets abilities at 1, 6, 14, and 18. They don't seem too terribly different, power-wise. So basically, Sorcerer trades out Wizard's 29+ additional (guaranteed; that doesn't count Wizard's basically unlimited potential to learn more) learned spells in exchange for metamagic.

If I were to do a mash-up of the two classes, I would consider:

Start with Sorcerer base.

Remove metamagic.

Additional spells known: +1 spell known on every odd level, including level 1. Gain 15 spells instead of 10 in the first 9 levels, and 10 spells instead of 5 in the next 10 levels. Total known spells at level 20 would be 25. That matches the maximum spells a Wizard can prepare each day at levels 10 and 20. Basically it just sacrifices all the "known but not prepared" spells a Wizard has.

Choose a Sorcerous Origin and a School of Magic. Choose abilities from those provided at levels 1, 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18. (Only one ability may be chosen at levels 6 and 14, so you have to choose between the options at those levels.) Ribbon abilities (eg: a Storm Sorcerer's 'Storm Guide' ability) don't count on this total, and may always be acquired. The spell transcribing abilities are irrelevant and should be ignored. This expands on the character theme without needing to build new stuff.


Overall: Lose metamagic, but gain extra archetype abilities — which may include metamagic-like abilities — and additional spells.

~~~

Optional addendums that I've seen associated with Sorcerer, that don't feel too out of place:

1) Allow this class to choose its own casting stat — Int, Wis, or Cha — and also have saving throw proficiency in that stat. An innate caster is an extremely broad idea, and no specific mental stat necessarily defines it. Con still seems appropriate for the physical side, though, as your body has to handle all this magic power inside itself.

2) An innate caster is an implicit focus for all his spells. An innate caster always effectively has a spell focus, and thus spells have no material cost (aside from those with valued material costs, as per usual for magic foci). Since this is often ignored anyway, this is mostly a flavor buff.

3) If a spell has either verbal or somatic casting components (but not both), an innate caster may substitute one for the other. In other words, speak rather than gesture (such as if bound, or for a gish build*), or gesture rather than speak (such as if silenced).

4) Allow a tweaked version of ritual magic (since this is a mash-up of two classes). Standard ritual magic doesn't make sense for an innate caster, but performing a ritual to boost the effectiveness of a spell is thematic. So, allow ritual casting to effectively upcast a spell by a level, but without using a higher level slot. Don't restrict it to 'ritual' tagged spells. No idea if this would actually be useful to anyone.


* This actually makes a weird sort of sense for all the SHOUTED ATTACK NAMES approach to special abilities in anime combat.

--- ~~~ ---


Thus, basically an innate caster halfway between a Sorcerer and a Wizard. It gets a solid number of spells (without being an entire library), while having more flexibility in archetype abilities.

Compared to Sorcerer, it loses metamagic to gain spells and abilities. Compared to Wizard, it loses offline spells in exchange for a couple archetype abilities — which feels like more of a loss compared to the Sorcerer's side. The optional addendums may be considered a gain, however.

This just covers the Type 2 Sorcerer approach. The Type 1, which focuses on metamagic, needs fewer tweaks, and wouldn't need this sort of reconstruction. A couple more spells, and cleaning up the trap options in the metamagic list, is basically it. The fact that it's an innate caster is much less relevant.

This would end up with separate classes for Metamagic Caster and Innate Caster. Not sure which one gets to be called Sorcerer, and what other name the other might get.


Thoughts? Balance issues? I know a few others have suggested the idea of dropping metamagic entirely in threads over the last few years, but I've never seen any implementation attempts.

[Arkhios]

Even though you lead with interesting ideas that aren't exactly homebrew, the conclusion is to make a homebrew. I'd recommend report your own thread to be moved to Homebrew Design subforum. You'll likely get more and/or better insights there.

[bid]

Additional spells known: +1 spell known on every odd level, including level 1. Gain 15 spells instead of 10 in the first 9 levels, and 10 spells instead of 5 in the next 10 levels. Total known spells at level 20 would be 25.
Just use the bard's progression.
It starts the same (2 less cantrip, 2 more knowns) but ends up with 5 more spells at level 20.

Mixing up schools and origins might be too much and should be evaluated on a case by case basis.

[Tiadoppler]

Sorcerers do have a significant flavor problem.

They're described as powerful blasters controlling the elements, but the current metagame encourages people to play them as multiclasses, using spell slots and sorcery points to fuel other abilities, or use the same few metamagic/spell combos repeatedly.

Possible solutions:

* Play in a low-optimization game. Don't worry about being a top-tier class, just have fun. Refluff/reflavor some common spells to make them fit your theme (e.g. when you cast shield, a beautiful snowflake appears between you and your enemy, growing quickly into a solid sphere of ice, that then evaporates to nothingness). There's no mechanical change, and no need for houserules or homebrew.
* Create a homebrew sorcerer subclass that lets you pick a specific element to focus on. This could be based on the Draconic subclass, but trading in the defensive and 'dragon-specific' abilities for additional offensive boosts and the ability to change the damage type of your spells to your chosen theme (e.g. I cast Thunderball, which is a fireball... made of Thunder!). Because these mechanical changes are limited, it shouldn't be too hard to balance.
* Create a new homebrew base class 'elemental avatar' with custom subclasses for each theme that you might be interested in. It seems like you've got lots of good ideas for this, but balance is tricky, and you're less likely to find other DMs willing to allow it in their games.

I don't know which would work best for you. If you're DMing, you can allow whatever homebrew you want, but you don't always have that freedom as a player. As a DM, I'd be much more likely to allow a homebrew subclass than a homebrew base class (although I'd work with the player to figure out what archetype they're looking for). If creating a custom innate caster class is something you want to pursue, go for it (over in the homebrew forums, preferably)!


Shameless plug: I'd be interested in your feedback on my Academian class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?587834-The-Academian-Class-PEACH-(int-based-full-caster-with-utility-focus)#post23903990), which has a couple similar concepts: a modification of the Wizard to use known spells, ~25 spells known and modified ritual casting (especially the Geometer subclass).

[Moxxmix]

Even though you lead with interesting ideas that aren't exactly homebrew, the conclusion is to make a homebrew. I'd recommend report your own thread to be moved to Homebrew Design subforum. You'll likely get more and/or better insights there.

Ah, right. I was writing in semi-response to a few "How to fix Sorcerer" threads in this forum, but it got big enough that I didn't want to try to add it to someone else's thread, and didn't consider the homebrew subforum. I'll ask to have it moved.

[Moxxmix]

This thread never did get moved, but oh well.

Another discussion idea (relating to Berserker Barbarians (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?589417-Another-Frenzied-Berserker-fix-Action-Surge-for-Exhaustion)) gave me an idea for a tweak to sorcerer. I'm not entirely sure how useful it would be, but I like the concept, and it may help suggest further ideas.

First, remove the ability to convert spell slots into spell points. You may still spend spell points to buy spell slots, but spell slots themselves are not a source of three-card monty.

Instead, replace it with the ability to spend hit dice to draw out additional power. The primary purpose is to redirect the class "power source" to the sorcerer's body, given that, lore-wise, the sorcerer's source of power is innate, and thus internal, not external. Many ideas have been floated for making better use of that aspect of the lore. This is another proposal.

• As a bonus action, you may spend a hit die from your sorcerer hit die pool, rolling it to gain as many spell points as the value rolled. You may do this a number of times per long rest equal to your proficiency bonus, as long as you have hit dice to spare.

I restricted it to the sorcerer hit die pool, so it can only be used to roll D6's.

Have this replace the fixed number of spell points granted per level. On average you'll get more spell points per day (between 1 and 5 points, depending on level). Low rolls will still put you ahead by a point or two, most levels, and good rolls could get you an extra 5–8 spell points. While this is a bit of a buff on the given spell point side, since you can't trade out spell slots for more spell points, it puts a cap on your upper limit of how much power you can dump into a nova burst.

I considered adding Con mod to the roll, but that gets way overpowered. Restricting the number of rolls to match the proficiency bonus puts a useful cap on how much it can be used, while still allowing it to grow through the tiers. In general, you're limited to between 1/3 and 1/2 of your total hit dice, so you can still make use of hit dice for other stuff (such as healing).

It still feels like there are problems, either in power balance or overall effectiveness. This is definitely still a rough draft of the idea.

Hmm. Actually, going back to the original discussion that inspired this, perhaps there is a way to take it further.

• You may spend additional hit dice on this ability at the expense of causing one level of exhaustion for each such die used. Additional dice used this way may be spent after the first die rolled in the bonus action, or may be spent after the maximum per day has been exceeded. You may see the result of each die roll before deciding to spend another die in this manner. Exhaustion gained this way may only be recovered during a long rest.

Thus, you can continue to push your body to draw out additional power, either pushing past your limits, or trying to draw out a lot of power very rapidly. However, doing so exhausts you.

[Âmesang]

My attempt at a sorcerer subclass, the "scion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?546181-Elemental-Spell-Metamagic-Scion-Sorcerous-Origin-and-Spells-that-manipulate-items%85)," was inspired by 3e's sorcerer class and archmage prestige class, including allowing the learning of wizard spells as sorcerer spells, akin to the "divine soul," and having a somewhat scholarly feel of sorts — the sorcerer, being descended from a powerful, magical lineage, seeks to study their ancestors in order to better harness their inborn arcane ability; alternatively, what would become of a sorcerer who took a more "wizardly" approach to their powers?

I tried to get it reviewed but no one paid it any mind. :smallfrown: It could still use some tweaking, I'm sure.

Another idea I had was to try and port over 3e's "knowstones," even as a soft fix:

KNOWSTONE
https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gif"In the most distant prehistory, ancient sorcerers crafted the first mortal magic items, some of which rivaled divinely forged artifacts in raw, untamed power. While most of those ancient items tore themselves apart by the sheer force of their barely bound eldritch might, a few lesser items survived. Recently, some modern sorcerers have allegedly uncovered the techniques for fashioning knowstones…"




Spell Level
Rarity


Cantrip
Common


1st-level
Common


2nd-level
Uncommon


3rd-level
Uncommon


4th-level
Rare


5th-level
Rare


6th-level
Very rare


7th-level
Very rare


8th-level
Very rare


9th-level
Legendary


Wondrous item, varies (requires atunement by a sorcerer)
https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gifSmall, smooth semi-precious stones each inscribed with an ancient arcane symbol, knowstones always appears in a piece of jewelry, and provides their bearers with knowledge of the inscribed spells, which they can then use their spell slots to cast normally (as if the inscribed spells were among their known spells). The knowstone's bearer need not make any conscious decision to use the knowstone apart from deciding to cast the inscribed spell (this is considered part of the spellcasting action).

https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gifMore than one knowstone (of differing spells) may be attuned.

[paladinn]

I think the whole idea of combining the Wizard and Sorcerer classes is great! Especially since 5e has made the wizard as much a spontaneous caster as the sorcerer. I've questioned the entire rationale for having a discrete sorcerer class.

I would propose the new/combined class to be a bit MAD, dependent on both intelligence and charisma. Have it use the spell point variant rules, and use the points for both the spells and metamagic. A mage's spells-known would be based on his/her intelligence, just as for the wizard now. His/her total spell points would be based upon level And upon charisma. Add one's Cha bonus to the spell point total. Metamagic would work as it does now, but would draw on the same spell point pool as one's spells.

Current sorcerous archetypes would simply allow spells that are not available to a mage outside of the archetype. "Divine souls" would have access to cleric spells, just as now, subject to the limits of his/her intelligence and charisma.

Yes, it has the potential to be very powerful; but I think the MADness of the class can offset such an increase in power.

[Moxxmix]

Shameless plug: I'd be interested in your feedback on my Academian class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?587834-The-Academian-Class-PEACH-(int-based-full-caster-with-utility-focus)#post23903990), which has a couple similar concepts: a modification of the Wizard to use known spells, ~25 spells known and modified ritual casting (especially the Geometer subclass).
I missed this the first time through. I've got over and done a check of your Academian class, and replied in that thread.


My attempt at a sorcerer subclass, the "scion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?546181-Elemental-Spell-Metamagic-Scion-Sorcerous-Origin-and-Spells-that-manipulate-items%85)," was inspired by 3e's sorcerer class and archmage prestige class, including allowing the learning of wizard spells as sorcerer spells, akin to the "divine soul," and having a somewhat scholarly feel of sorts — the sorcerer, being descended from a powerful, magical lineage, seeks to study their ancestors in order to better harness their inborn arcane ability; alternatively, what would become of a sorcerer who took a more "wizardly" approach to their powers?

I tried to get it reviewed but no one paid it any mind. :smallfrown: It could still use some tweaking, I'm sure.

The thread for yours is significantly older, so I don't want to necro it.

Similar to Tiadoppler's, I'd constrain the proficiency to be "gain proficiency if you don't have it, or expertise if you do". That tends to be the way the standard rules approach things.

I'd still look into giving it some other low-level feature when first taken. Storm Sorcerer also gets a starting language, and an escape move when casting spells. Expertise in Arcana is nice, but is extremely niche, and I don't think satisfies the value of that introductory power.

Counterspelling, with potential reflection, is a decent boost for 6th level, but I'd look into adding another ribbon feature at that same level, to enhance the flavor.

Use Magic Device is a pretty low-key benefit for the 14th level power. It's entirely dependent on actually getting a magic item that you both want, and can't use normally. That's way too situational to be worth a feature slot. It's ribbon, at best.

Arcane Fire needs to have a damage type.

I think the whole idea of combining the Wizard and Sorcerer classes is great! Especially since 5e has made the wizard as much a spontaneous caster as the sorcerer. I've questioned the entire rationale for having a discrete sorcerer class.

Note that I'm not saying we don't need a sorcerer class at all. I'm saying that what people want out of the sorcerer class doesn't necessarily match up with the class that they were given in the book.

Look at the sorcerer subclasses:


Dragon
Wild magic
Divine
Shadow
Storm
Giant Soul


A sorcerer's design is fundamentally about her heritage, whereas a wizard's design is fundamentally about his knowledge. A sorcerer gains power from the past (origin), while a wizard gains power from the present (specialization).

The issue is that the wizard's specializations can easily match the more prominent aspects of an imagined heritage. A kitsune enchantress; a yuki-onna ice storm mage; a witch diviner; etc. And while the sorcerer subclasses do give some degree of that flexibility, the power of the class is fundamentally tied not to its heritage, but to Metamagic. And metamagic does absolutely nothing to enhance the sorcerer's origin; it's an independent mechanic that was bolted on because it had nowhere else to go.

Compare that to the wizard, whose power is tied to his enormous magical flexibility. So a wizard can be anything (and would work well, if not for it being all book-learning instead of innate magic), while a sorcerer, which, lore-wise, should be able to be anything along these lines, cannot. Too much of the class is bound up in metamagic to really allow it to spread its wings. This leads to the conflict I brought up in the OP.


My idea here is a very cheap fix (and needs more work). Just get rid of metamagic, and steal some of the wizard's tools.


I would propose the new/combined class to be a bit MAD, dependent on both intelligence and charisma. Have it use the spell point variant rules, and use the points for both the spells and metamagic. A mage's spells-known would be based on his/her intelligence, just as for the wizard now. His/her total spell points would be based upon level And upon charisma. Add one's Cha bonus to the spell point total. Metamagic would work as it does now, but would draw on the same spell point pool as one's spells.

Current sorcerous archetypes would simply allow spells that are not available to a mage outside of the archetype. "Divine souls" would have access to cleric spells, just as now, subject to the limits of his/her intelligence and charisma.

Yes, it has the potential to be very powerful; but I think the MADness of the class can offset such an increase in power.
Your idea keeps metamagic, and primarily just allows greater breadth of spell selection. Use of spell points for casting spells is not exactly a sorcerer thing; it's an optional rule the GM can apply to anyone. So in a sense, that aspect isn't really a change, it's just about making sure that rule is used.

Overall, I don't think it really helps either side of the problem. While my focus has been on the lore side, there's also issues with the metamagic side, for those that want to make use of it. The metamagic options are horrendously lopsided, either near-overpowered, or near-useless. They're generally trap options unless you plan out your entire leveling career ahead of time, and you have access to so few, they're generally only good for powergamers.

Fixing the sorcerer while keeping metamagic in mind requires an entirely different approach to the rebuild. The metamagic-focused mage doesn't need the background heritage. The purpose for this type of mage is the metamagic itself, and possibly expanded spell lists.

[Arkhios]

I think the whole idea of combining the Wizard and Sorcerer classes is great! Especially since 5e has made the wizard as much a spontaneous caster as the sorcerer. I've questioned the entire rationale for having a discrete sorcerer class.

While I'm not against the idea of having a hybrid between Sorcerer and Wizard, there's no reason to get rid of sorcerer in favor of making the hybrid.

Sorcerer and Wizard (and Warlock) are distinct from each other in more ways than the spontaneity (or lack thereof).

Sorcerers gain their spells inherently. Magic comes naturally to them and they can modify spells instinctively (in a way, Metamagic and Font of Magic are part of their inherent spellcasting ability).

Wizards study to learn spellcasting. Wizard needs their spellbook to prepare new spells. If the book is gone, they're more or less in trouble.

Warlocks make otherworldy pacts (a.k.a. deals, contracts) with powerful beings for magical powers. Without acting according to the pact, they might lose most if not all abilities they've learned from the powerful being.

And what comes to the spontaneity of spellcasting in general. It's not unique to Sorcerers and Wizards, either. It's used by all spellcasters.

[Âmesang]

Similar to Tiadoppler's, I'd constrain the proficiency to be "gain proficiency if you don't have it, or expertise if you do". That tends to be the way the standard rules approach things.
That makes sense. I just always found it amusing that rogues could be more well-versed in Arcana, Nature, or Religion than sorcerers/wizards, druids, or clerics (then again, my current group has a paladin who's not even proficient in Religion in the first place).


I'd still look into giving it some other low-level feature when first taken. Storm Sorcerer also gets a starting language, and an escape move when casting spells. Expertise in Arcana is nice, but is extremely niche, and I don't think satisfies the value of that introductory power.
Except it's not the subclass' only introductory power, since it also allows you to learn or replace spells from the wizard spell list, akin to the divine soul; so the key is finding a balance between the divine soul's expanded spell list and the storm sorcerer's language proficiency. I suppose I could give 'em bard-like ritual casting, not that there's much for them to work with (but with wizard spells as an option, it's more than most).


Counterspelling, with potential reflection, is a decent boost for 6th level, but I'd look into adding another ribbon feature at that same level, to enhance the flavor.
The ability also lets you add half-proficiency and later full proficiency to the required ability check when casting counterspell against higher level spells, and I'm thinking of expanding that to dispel magic, too (why are they separate spells?!). It is a particularly niche ability, so maybe I could toss a later-level auto advantage on the check? I don't want it to be overshadowed by bards or abjurers, but at the same time I don't want it to necessarily overshadow them, either.


Use Magic Device is a pretty low-key benefit for the 14th level power. It's entirely dependent on actually getting a magic item that you both want, and can't use normally. That's way too situational to be worth a feature slot. It's ribbon, at best.
Admittedly it is rather underpowered when compared to the thief, considering the thief gets it a level earlier and expands their list of available items in a more significant way (casting spell scrolls that they normally couldn't). I'm wondering how over/underpowered it would be to allow an additional attunement item (especially with my attempt at bringing back 3e's "knowstones" as a sorcerer-only attunement wondrous item)?


Arcane Fire needs to have a damage type.
The lack of a damage type was kind of the entire point, being that it's a bolt of "raw magic," and otherwise there'd be little point to use it over most offensive cantrips; I suppose if i had to choose a damage type, then "force" would be the most likely.

I've considered tying in "arcane fire" with sorcery points — maybe allowing the recovery of some points on a critical hit, or regaining equivalent points based on the spell slot expended if the attack is successful (essentially a "free action" conversion instead of spending a bonus action). At the very least I need to reword it; have it deal Charisma-mod damage in d6s as a base, with an additional amount based on an expended spell slot (since cantrips have no spell slots to expend, so the present wording is a bit of nonsense).

[Moxxmix]

Except it's not the subclass' only introductory power, since it also allows you to learn or replace spells from the wizard spell list, akin to the divine soul; so the key is finding a balance between the divine soul's expanded spell list and the storm sorcerer's language proficiency. I suppose I could give 'em bard-like ritual casting, not that there's much for them to work with (but with wizard spells as an option, it's more than most).
Yeah, I think I was looking at that wrong. Divine Soul gets divine magic, plus another little bonus ability. However in this case, almost every single sorcerer spell is already a wizard spell, so the spell list expansion is only a fraction of all wizard spells, so that does seem a weaker overall benefit. Adding ritual spellcasting is probably sufficient additional benefit.


The ability also lets you add half-proficiency and later full proficiency to the required ability check when casting counterspell against higher level spells, and I'm thinking of expanding that to dispel magic, too (why are they separate spells?!). It is a particularly niche ability, so maybe I could toss a later-level auto advantage on the check? I don't want it to be overshadowed by bards or abjurers, but at the same time I don't want it to necessarily overshadow them, either.
By "ribbon feature" I mean things that are almost entirely for flavor. A storm sorcerer has storm control, but that has virtually no mechanical benefit. Similarly for the eldritch knight's bound weapon feature. Technically it's possible to find ways to mechanically benefit from these types of abilities' uses, but the real purpose is style and flavor.


Admittedly it is rather underpowered when compared to the thief, considering the thief gets it a level earlier and expands their list of available items in a more significant way (casting spell scrolls that they normally couldn't). I'm wondering how over/underpowered it would be to allow an additional attunement item (especially with my attempt at bringing back 3e's "knowstones" as a sorcerer-only attunement wondrous item)?
Hmm. My first thought is that an additional attunement slot sounds reasonable.


The lack of a damage type was kind of the entire point, being that it's a bolt of "raw magic," and otherwise there'd be little point to use it over most offensive cantrips; I suppose if i had to choose a damage type, then "force" would be the most likely.

I've considered tying in "arcane fire" with sorcery points — maybe allowing the recovery of some points on a critical hit, or regaining equivalent points based on the spell slot expended if the attack is successful (essentially a "free action" conversion instead of spending a bonus action). At the very least I need to reword it; have it deal Charisma-mod damage in d6s as a base, with an additional amount based on an expended spell slot (since cantrips have no spell slots to expend, so the present wording is a bit of nonsense).
I'm pretty sure that there is no magical damage anywhere in the rules that does not have a damage type. Even Magic Missile, which is about as close to "raw magic damage" as it gets, has type Force. An alternative would be that you can shape it to be whatever magical damage type you wish, or allow you to cast it as a bonus action.

[Âmesang]

Yeah, I think I was looking at that wrong. Divine Soul gets divine magic, plus another little bonus ability. However in this case, almost every single sorcerer spell is already a wizard spell, so the spell list expansion is only a fraction of all wizard spells, so that does seem a weaker overall benefit. Adding ritual spellcasting is probably sufficient additional benefit.
It stems from the issue of translating a 3e sorcerer to 5e and finding that some of the spells she knew are no longer considered sorcerer spells, so even with the relatively small expansion I wanted to give some of that "old school" feel to it; I decided against adding an extra spell like divine soul, though, since that's already the 6th-level feature.


By "ribbon feature" I mean things that are almost entirely for flavor. A storm sorcerer has storm control, but that has virtually no mechanical benefit. Similarly for the eldritch knight's bound weapon feature. Technically it's possible to find ways to mechanically benefit from these types of abilities' uses, but the real purpose is style and flavor.
Fair enough. Admittedly this is my first attempt at creating a subclass, so I suppose I can try and find something more flavorful besides proficiency in the ancient language related to the scion's lineage.


Hmm. My first thought is that an additional attunement slot sounds reasonable.
I always liked the idea that the sorcerer's natural magical ability gave them a stronger connection to magical items.


I'm pretty sure that there is no magical damage anywhere in the rules that does not have a damage type. Even Magic Missile, which is about as close to "raw magic damage" as it gets, has type Force. An alternative would be that you can shape it to be whatever magical damage type you wish, or allow you to cast it as a bonus action.
I honestly like your alternative idea since it, in a way, incorporates the archmage's "mastery of elements"/homebrew "Elemental Spell" metamagic and should be just enough to give "arcane fire" an extra kick to justify it being a capstone ability, perhaps altering the damage type as a bonus action.

Either that or I attempt to incorporate the FORGOTTEN REALMS'® "silver fire" into it.

[Moxxmix]

OK, have taken the idea and rewritten it some more.

First, rather than ignore the metamagic side of things, I made it so that metamagic is a choice, and that the alternate choice handles more of the intrinsic magic approach to things.

Second, I added in the idea of spending hit dice for sorcery points, and removed the default sorcery points. The baseline version cannot convert spell slots to sorcery points; only the metamagic side of things gets that.

Third, I stole more ideas, since I don't want to have to come up with entirely new ideas for a new class. Things like changing the elemental types of spells is explicit to the non-metamagic side of the class. Adding more bonus spells goes there, too, since there's no longer a power conflict with metamagic.

Fourth, I tried to come up with more ideas of things to spend sorcery points on. Without Quick metamagic, or sacrificing spell slots for tons of sorcery points, the nova potential for the class goes way down. One of the things that's a problem for the default class — that people don't like the conflict between spending sorcery points on spell use compared to class abilities — lessens when you get rid of the default choice for spending sorcery points: metamagic.

I'll admit my ideas are a bit weak at the moment, partly because it needs to be workable regardless of the selected Sorcerous Origin. Any other ideas are welcome.


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Sorcerer

Level 1: Choose Origin (Dragon, Wild Magic, Divine Soul, Shadow, Storm, Giant Soul, etc)

Origin defines why you have magic power, and what "flavor" it has. Dragons, Giant Souls, and Storm Sorcerers tend to be elemental in nature, with the first two having a variety of elements to choose from, and the last being a specific collection of elements. (A Storm Sorcerer variant might also go with a blizzard focus.) Divine and Shadow tap into either divine or shadow realms, with a focus on the magics from those realms. A Wild Mage embodies pure chaos.

However the sorcerer's origin has a great deal more flexibility than that. You could have kitsune blood, and a natural talent for illusions and enchantments. You could have fey blood, and a talent for summoning. Or your magic may not be in your blood at all, but could come from being saturated in the supernatural, whether you got lost in a magic circle as a child, were born on the night of a raging storm, or carried the sign of a great prophecy (astrological sign, birthmark, etc).

Choose a Sorcerous Origin.

Choose a major magic theme. This is a theme that your magic always relates to. Chosen spells should be connected to this theme. A major magic theme may either be a significantly connected group of elements (eg: storm magic comprising lightning/thunder/air) or a school of magic (eg: enchantment, illusion, etc). It should naturally connect to your specific origin.



Level 2: Flexible Magic

Flexible Magic is the ability to manipulate the power that courses through you into actual manifest magic. You may draw on your intrinsic power in order to generate "sorcery points" by spending an available sorcerer hit die and rolling it as a bonus action. The number you roll is the number of sorcery points you gain. You may spend the generated sorcery points to create spell slots as defined in the standard conversion tables.

You may use this ability as many times per long rest as your skill proficiency bonus. Each use beyond that generates a level of exhaustion.

Note: You no longer gain an automatic number of sorcery points based on your level. Those are gained via spending hit dice instead.



Level 3: Choice between Metamagic and Hearkening

At third level, you have a choice between learning to manipulate your magic more freely, or diving into your heritage and drawing out more of its latent power.

Metamagic:

If you choose the path of Metamagic, you learn to manipulate spells in new and unusual ways.

When you select this option, choose two metamagic skills. You may choose a new metamagic skill at level 10 and level 17. [Possibly change to levels 8, 12, and 16.]

[Metamagic skill list omitted.]

In addition, you improve your ability to manipulate your personal power, and may now draw sorcery points out of your ability to cast magic. You may exchange a spell slot for a number of sorcery points equal to the slot's level.

Hearkening:

If you choose the heed the Hearkening, you may expand your connection to your sorcerous origin, ferreting out the secrets your heritage carries.

The Hearkening grants you a new minor magic theme. A minor theme may be a single element, or a school of magic. You may only learn spells up to 5th level for your minor theme.

You may spend one additional sorcerer hit die for sorcery points each day without becoming exhausted.

Most spells may be adjusted to fit your elemental theme (if any). If you learn a spell whose normal description uses an element that is not part of your theme, you may learn a version of it that uses your theme's element instead. This may change some secondary effects of the spell. For example, an ice-themed version of a fire spell would not set objects on fire, but might douse fires.

You gain the 2nd level ability of a Wizard's Arcane Tradition for one of the schools of magic that match your selected themes or origin. Spend one sorcery point to activate it.

You gain one Eldritch Invocation from the Warlock class. This replaces such a selection you may gain from advancing in the Warlock class itself. (IE: No extra selection from two sources.) The invocation must not have any prerequisites. Spend one sorcery point to activate it.

At 3rd level, you gain one bonus first level spell. At 5th level you gain a bonus second level spell. At 7th level you gain a bonus third level spell. At 9th level you gain a bonus fourth level spell. At 11th level you gain a bonus fifth level spell. At 18th level you gain a bonus spell of any level. These spells do not count against your normal number of known spells.

You may spend a sorcery point to change the element of a known spell from its default to any other element within your theme. For example, a storm sorcerer might change a spell from lightning element to thunder.

You may spend a sorcery point to be able to cast an unknown cantrip from a spell list that you know (the sorcery list by default, but may include other lists depending on origin, feats, multiclassing, etc). Spend an additional sorcery point if it uses an element that does not match your themes or origin.

You may spend a sorcery point to replace the material component of a spell, if such component could normally be replaced by a focus or a spell component pouch.

At 10th level, you may spend 2 sorcery points (in addition to any existing costs) to use the sorcerous origin ability that you would normally gain at 14th level.

At 14th level, you may spend 2 sorcery points (in addition to any existing costs) to use the sorcerous origin ability that you would normally gain at 18th level.