Calculating Encounter XP / CR Question

[SpikeFightwicky]

I have an encounter planned, which involves many hobgoblins, but of varying CRs. There will be a Hobgoblin Warlord (CR 6) overseeing his troops. The idea is that he won't actively participate in the encounter, but will provide support via his Leadership ability from ~30 feet away. How would this affect his CR? The ability is great, but he'll be doing 0 damage per round through his own attacks. If a PC makes their way to him, he'll defend himself, however. The hobgobs are holding the line as a goblin village evacuates, and as soon as the evacuated group sounds the all clear horn (4 rounds), the hobgobs with perform an orderly withdrawal.

So since the Warlord will be using the non melee part of his kit unless confronted directly, how would that affect his CR (assuming the party don't rush him before he withdraws)?

[ZenBear]

I would say just treat the encounter under the assumption that the players will engage the Warlord, as they most likely will, but err on the side of higher difficulty and try to make it abundantly clear to your players that engaging it would be unwise. I tried to figure out how to incorporate just the leadership feature, but the math doesn't make sense to me. The Warlord is essentially giving out +2 to all attack rolls and saving throws for every creature within 30 feet, like a high level Bless spell without concentration. That's certainly powerful, but I don't know that adding +2 to every creature's attack bonus and adjusting its Offensive CR to account for that really lands us in the right place. It's a tough question.

[Unoriginal]

I have an encounter planned, which involves many hobgoblins, but of varying CRs. There will be a Hobgoblin Warlord (CR 6) overseeing his troops. The idea is that he won't actively participate in the encounter, but will provide support via his Leadership ability from ~30 feet away. How would this affect his CR? The ability is great, but he'll be doing 0 damage per round through his own attacks. If a PC makes their way to him, he'll defend himself, however. The hobgobs are holding the line as a goblin village evacuates, and as soon as the evacuated group sounds the all clear horn (4 rounds), the hobgobs with perform an orderly withdrawal.

So since the Warlord will be using the non melee part of his kit unless confronted directly, how would that affect his CR (assuming the party don't rush him before he withdraws)?

His CR is entirely unaffected. He COULD be doing damage, he just doesn't (for some reasons).

CR is *not* affected by things like tactics. It's just raw numbers.

Also, 30ft away isn't very far and most PCs would want to shut down the leader if they can, so he'd probably have to fight regardless of withdrawal attempts. If anything, not fighting the PCs could get him deemed a coward and threaten his leadership.

In any case, his CR and the XP value of the encounter do not change.


It's a tough question.

It's important to make clear CR is not affected by strategic or tactical considerations.

Fighting a Yuan-ti in a room filled with 2ft of poisoned water (that they're immune to) doesn't change the Yuan-ti CR, even if it can make the encounter more difficult.

[Malifice]

I have an encounter planned, which involves many hobgoblins, but of varying CRs. There will be a Hobgoblin Warlord (CR 6) overseeing his troops. The idea is that he won't actively participate in the encounter, but will provide support via his Leadership ability from ~30 feet away. How would this affect his CR?

I wouldnt include his CR in the encounter; I'd simply grant the encounter a slight buff to account for 'favorable circumstances''.

[SpikeFightwicky]

Lots of food for thought! Thanks for the replies so far.

I'm thinking it might be easier to downshift the warlord to a captain, given the circumstances. Rethinking things, I can tweak the encounter by removing the warlord and subbing in Hobgob Captains, who have the exact same leadership ability. The warlord was sticking by the Devastator because the Dev was a more valuable asset. I can replace the warlord with a Hobgoblin Veteran to act as bodyguard and overall it lessens the encounter XP as well. I think that should work out better.

[Unoriginal]

You could also make them a Knight, if you still want a leader that gives a bonus to their troops.

[ZenBear]

It's important to make clear CR is not affected by strategic or tactical considerations.

Fighting a Yuan-ti in a room filled with 2ft of poisoned water (that they're immune to) doesn't change the Yuan-ti CR, even if it can make the encounter more difficult.

Forgive me if this is something explained in the DMG, I’m still new to DMing, but how do you factor in such environmental modifiers to the danger of an encounter? I’m working on a homebrew module of the Fallow Mire from Dragon Age Inquisition and I want to include a plague effect (see Diseased Rat) for when PCs enter the swamp water or get hit by waterlogged zombies. I’m not sure how to calculate encounter difficulty with that in mind.

[DrKerosene]

If your Warlord with engage in a fight to the death after the minions have been mopped up (but before the horn sounds), the Party would get the normal XP for all the enemies, but the regular hobgoblins would be more deadly (for the purposes of modified XP checking) due to the inclusion of a buffing ally.

If the Warlord will just take the Dodge Action until the horn sounds and they escape, then I’d treat them as a nominal bump to XP awarded for defeating the regular Hobgoblins. Or no additional XP of you expect the Party to encounter the Warlord later.

[SpikeFightwicky]

Thanks for all the replies!

I've tweaked the encounters and the warlord will be a later encounter, with a veteran acting as bodyguard. I added some captains to help the grunts with the leadership. I absolutely love the generic "NPC" templates they have, so you can just plug and play your monsters if you want a goblinoid that's more complicated than their base.

The veteran will ended up making a break for the withdrawal tunnel, whereas the devastator will be on a mount and will dash away as soon as the horn sounds. So many ideas from this conversation that I'm going to use! I run the game this Sunday so I'm hoping it'll be a fun romp.

[Tanarii]

Forgive me if this is something explained in the DMG, I’m still new to DMing, but how do you factor in such environmental modifiers to the danger of an encounter? I’m working on a homebrew module of the Fallow Mire from Dragon Age Inquisition and I want to include a plague effect (see Diseased Rat) for when PCs enter the swamp water or get hit by waterlogged zombies. I’m not sure how to calculate encounter difficulty with that in mind.
MODIFYING ENCOUNTER DIFFICULTY
An encounter can be made easier or harder based on the choice of location and the situation.
increase the difficulty of the encounter by one step (from easy to medium, for example) if the characters
have a drawback that their enemies don't. Reduce the
difficulty by one step if the characters have a benefit that
Their enemies don't. Any additional benefit or drawback pushes the encounter one step in the appropriate
directipm. If the characters have both a benefit and a ::-awback, the two cancel each other out.
- situational drawbacks include the following:
~he whole party is surprised, and the enemy isn't. ~he enemy has cover, and the party doesn't.
~he characters are unable to see the enemy.
-he characters are taking damage every round from some environmental effect or magical source, and the enemy isn't.
The characters are hanging from a rope, in the midst of scaling a sheer wall or cliff, stuck to the floor, or oth- erwise in a situation that greatly hinders their mobility or makes them sitting ducks.
ituational benefits are similar to drawbacks except '-ar they benefit the characters instead of the enemy.
DMG p85