What's the perfect list of magic types?

[Man_Over_Game]

Say you're writing a new list of magic by types. What's your preferred list?

An example of what I'm looking for, from Dungeons and Dragons 5th edition:


Abjuration: Shielding, Denial.
Conjuration: Teleportation, Summoning, Creation.
Divination: Scouting, Scrying, Foretelling.
Enchantment: Manipulating minds.
Evocation: Energy, Healing.
Illusion: Illusions. Duh.
Necromancy: Manipulation of life energy, reviving the fallen and raising the dead.
Transmutation: Manipulation of existing matter



Although I think I'd prefer:

Soul: Manipulation of Life Energy, Mind Manipulation, Raising the Dead
Planar: Teleportation, Scouting, Scrying.
Force: Shielding, Summoning, Mobility, Denial
Reality: Foretelling, reviving the fallen, illusions
Matter: Healing, manipulation of existing matter, energy, creation.

[2D8HP]

Arcane/Chaos magicians.

Divine/Law magicians.

Seems enough.

[Man_Over_Game]

Arcane/Chaos magicians.

Divine/Law magicians.

Seems enough.

I'm not sure about that, though. What would something like summoning a creature be, or lifting a pillar off of the ground? Or teleportation? Some of these powers don't really fit into something so...binary.

Additionally, most of the magic that I envision would probably fall under more Arcane than Divine types. Beyond blessing, light, healing, and control spells, what else would fall under Divine/Law?

[gkathellar]

It really depends on what you're going for - what magic is intended to be and do. However, for general fantasy, I am fond of a modified version of the D&D standard:

Abjuration: "Go away"
Benediction: "Be better"
Conjuration: "Come here"
Divination: "Perceive truth"
Evocation: "Gain energy"
Illusion: "Perceive falsehood"
Malediction: "Be worse"
Nullification: "Lose energy"

Sometimes as part of a diagram with this list:

Aspect: Relating to the magic-user's own body and physical attributes
Gnosis: Relating to what the magic-user knows and understands
Mandate: Relating to the magic-user's efforts to exercise direct control
Radiance: Relating to the magic-user's efforts to imbue attributes

[Mastikator]

Are we classifying by type of outcome or supernatural source or magical mechanism? If it's outcome then I like gkathellar's, if it's source then 2D8HP's is better. If it's mechanism then there's Vancian, spell points/mana, skill based.

[Fable Wright]

Five techniques, ten forms. Every spell is described by a technique performed on a form. Rare exceptions have 2 or more techniques and or forms.

The techniques are Create, Destroy, Change, Control, and Comprehend.

The forms are Animal, Humanoid, Plant, Mind; Earth, Air, Fire, Liquid; Image and Magic.

Healing spell? Create Humanoid (tissue). Polymorph? Change, Human, Animal. Shapechange? Change, Human, Animal, Magic. (Change into magical creatures.) Mind control? ... Control Mind, it's not that hard. Invisibility? Destroy Image.

If you feel the names are too plain, you could rewrite them in Latin. Creo, Perdo, Muto, Rego, Intellego, Animal, Corpus, Herbam, Mentem, Terram, Aurum, Ignem, Aquam, Imaginem, Vim.

[Man_Over_Game]

Are we classifying by type of outcome or supernatural source or magical mechanism? If it's outcome then I like gkathellar's, if it's source then 2D8HP's is better. If it's mechanism then there's Vancian, spell points/mana, skill based.

Outcome was the intent.

For example, a Sunlance and a Bless spell might have the same source, but they both do drastically different things.

[gkathellar]

You may want to take a look at Ars Magica, then. It's got 5-by-10 magic system with 10 "forms" (the four elements, animals, plants, human minds, human bodies, images, and raw magic), and 5 "techniques" (create, destroy, transform, control, perceive). The breadth of the system is astonishing.

[Tinkerer]

Are you dealing with a system where mages have to specialize (such as Avatar the Last Airbender), have the option to specialize (most D&D), or where specialists are rare to non-existent and you simply want to organize the spells (Savage Worlds)? Each of those 3 types have different things to bear in mind when creating magic types.

[RedMage125]

I posted something a few months back, tying the various schools to the 4 elements. It seems relevant to your topic, so I'll re-post the OP here.

So...I have this idea I was tossing around in my head for a story, and it involves magic being tied to the classic 4 elements. And I wanted to classify the 8 schools as being considered "air/water/fire/earth magic", in terms of how the characters' talents lie. So, I've decided to post this, because I like to share my ideas, and if anyone likes this, they're welcome to cherry pick or steal wholesale.

First, the list, and then I'll give my reasoning:

Divination: Air
Transmutation: Water
Evocation: Fire
Abjuration: Earth
Enchantment: Air/Water
Illusion: Air/Fire
Conjuration: Earth/Fire
Necromancy: Earth/Water

Air Magic: Air is often times (with Astrology, Tarot, etc) associated with the mind, mental faculties and the like. Air Signs, for example, tend to be "in their head", and be more prone to cold logic over emotional responses. Divination is thus purely Air, as it reveals/provides knowledge and insight, generally without creating anything of substance.

Water Magic: Water is change. Pure and simple. Going again with Astrological signs, Water Signs tend towards emotion, which can-at times-be very volatile and subject to swift change. Transmutation, in this regard, is the quintessential school of magic for change. Water is also often associated with Life, which will be addressed further below.

Fire Magic: This one should be obvious. Fire is the element most easily associated with "energy". In Astrology, Fire Signs are enthusiastic, passionate, and creative. Evocation is the creation and manipulation of raw energy, be it fire, electricity, etc.

Earth Magic: This one was honestly the hardest of the elements to codify. Where I went with this is that Earth represents stability, solidity, and to a small extent, protection. In Astrology, Earth Signs are solid, dependable, and practical. Abjuration is the school where one finds a great deal of protection spells, wards, and the removal of other magical effects, such as dispelling magic or antimagic fields.

Air/Water: The combination of Air and Water leaves us with things that change or alter the mind. Thus, Enchantment fits in nicely.

Air/Fire: Air and Fire combined give us things that are made of created energy, but lack substance. So Illusion is perfect.

Earth/Fire: Conversely, to use energy to create things that DO have substance, thus blending Fire and Earth, we have Conjuration.

Earth/Water: Now, we are left with Necromancy. Why is it Earth and Water? Necromancy involves changes to something's life. As mentioned above, Water is often associated with Life, and manipulation of the life energies of a creature (i.e. Necromancy)* is therefore a blend of Earth and Water.

*It should be noted, that for this to work, healing magic needs to be reclassified as Necromancy, like it used to be in older editions.

Like I said, this was created more for a story, to be used narratively. The character with a penchant for Air magic has a talent for Divination, Enchantment and Illusion, but his Abjuration, Conjuration, and Necromancy spells are not as strong, and he has moderate or average strength in Evocation and Transmutation. The story in question is not for a "D&D world", and does not have Vancian Magic or Prohibited Schools, but since I was using the D&D codified Schools of magic, I thought the Playground might enjoy and maybe get something out of it.

I don't know if anyone would find this helpful, or useful as a story element or roleplaying tool, but I wanted to share it anyway.

I welcome any comments/criticisms/questions. And like I said in the beginning, if anyone would like to adopt or cherry-pick from this, I welcome it. Plagiarism is, after all, the Sincerest Form of Flattery.

[Man_Over_Game]

Are you dealing with a system where mages have to specialize (such as Avatar the Last Airbender), have the option to specialize (most D&D), or where specialists are rare to non-existent and you simply want to organize the spells (Savage Worlds)? Each of those 3 types have different things to bear in mind when creating magic types.

I guess it'd be around "Mostly specialized".

Preferably, it'd make sense under basic scrutiny. Using gkathellar's mention of Ars Magicka, it's hard to justify a difference between Humans and Animals outside of supernatural mumbo jumbo. Large, general groups would be better than very specific ones.

Although it's not directly about what I want, I'm just asking what people, in general, would like to see.

[Fable Wright]

I guess it'd be around "Mostly specialized".

Preferably, it'd make sense under basic scrutiny. Using gkathellar's mention of Ars Magicka, it's hard to justify a difference between Humans and Animals outside of supernatural mumbo jumbo. Although it's not directly about what I want, I'm just asking what people, in general, would like to see.

D&D keeps the animal/ human divide between Charm/Hold Person and Animal Friendship/Dominate Beast. Also Animal covers animal products like spiderweb and furs.

[Man_Over_Game]

D&D keeps the animal/ human divide between Charm/Hold Person and Animal Friendship/Dominate Beast. Also Animal covers animal products like spiderweb and furs.

Sure, but that's why I'm asking for alternate magic types.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me why there's a matter creation type (Conjuration), an energy creation type (Evocation), a matter manipulation type (Transmutation), and a pseudo-matter creation type (Illusion). Evocation handles healing, but Necromancy handles life energy?



I wouldn't be against some kind of natural/primal magic type, but it'd have to fit in with everything else. In DnD 5e, "Primal" isn't a school type. It's a big assumption based on the interactions of certain spells and some class features, but isn't inherently laid out anywhere. But I could see two different energy types of Primal (Chaos) and Control (Law), with a bunch of magic being sorted into either, and that'd fit well into the DnD universe.

If I wanted the DnD magic archetypes, I could... Google it, I guess? But I'd rather ask what people would actually want.

[Kyutaru]

Due to tarot cards and some D&D spells, I'm a fan of reversal magic. Channeling it in one direction or another creates opposing patterns. A fire spell may create flame but may also quench it. A haste spell speeds you while a slow spell restrains you.

Abjuration: Rejection/Protection - Denial of effects or reversed it is preservation of your own status quo.
Necromancy: Death/Life - Control over decay and bloom, possessing the power to revive or destroy life.
Conjuration: Call/Send - Bringing objects to you or sending them away, or creating portals that do both.
Mesmerism: Internal/External - Manipulation of the mind, either internal beliefs or external perceptions.
Evocation: Energy/Force - Jurisdiction over the elements whether they are potential or kinetic in nature.
Transmutation: Enhance/Reduce - Power over molecular structure, things may be changed or annihilated.
Relativization: Forwards/Backwards - Control of time itself as well as viewing the past, future, and present.

I feel that covers the basics and all forms of advanced magic stem from one or more of these. It creates a spectrum of magic where spells begin mildly influencing their domains and eventually expand their zone of control to encompass the most extreme forms of their essential concepts.

[2D8HP]

...I'm just asking what people, in general, would like to see.


What I want to see in a "magic system"?

Well since you ask...

...Magic is unnatural, and humans may not work sorcery without performing rituals to summon and beg demons, elementals, spirits, et cetera to lend theit power which ultimately d amns the magician as "the more one drinks of unnatural power, the greater the infection", and magic is "playing with fire after soaking oneself in gasoline", and it "gives with one hand and takes with another", and a sacrifice must always be made, in blood, health, life force, or sanity.
Wizards who forget the offerings to sate the hunger of the unearthly beings they appeal to to cast their spells become said beings lunch!
Where and when magic is made lighting thunder and the stench of brimstone lingers, a wrongness is felt, and monsters beyond those summoned by the magician are attracted.
Repeated and habitual sorcery becomes addictive, warping the magicians goals to those of the entities that they petition, and in-time, cursed by madness, the magicians work to bring Hell to Earth!
Heroes work to stop magicians, usual with a sword.

That seems about right to me.

[Quertus]

Optimal? Good question. I don't have an answer at this time.

Designed primarily for specialists? Hmmm… I once tried the following *strictly bounded* (ie, you could only have one) schools/elements/whatever:

Matter (creation, Transmutation, and detection thereof)

Energy (blam spells, flight/animation, warmth/light)

Life (healing, shapeshifting, creating & modifying species)

Dimension (teleportation, plane travel, time-based effects)

Mind (classic mind reading, mind control, Mindrape)

Soul (possession/exorcism/banishment, resurrection, know personality)

Each of these 6 caster types had a huge array of options, making it hard to feel like any choice was a "trap" (soul was arguably the most niche, although just knowing things like "he's the type to…" is phenomenal in some campaigns).

[Max_Killjoy]

I'd start with the specific setting, and the way magic works there, and the sorts of magic that are possible and why, before trying to create a list like this.

[Kyutaru]

Each of these 6 caster types had a huge array of options, making it hard to feel like any choice was a "trap" (soul was arguably the most niche, although just knowing things like "he's the type to…" is phenomenal in some campaigns).

You could have Soul be the protection school. Abjuration needs to be somewhere and where better than guarding your soul against outside magic?

[Lord Raziere]

The perfect list of magic type types in my opinion is a messy collection of systems and standards. some of them are more popular than others. Some are redundant except for a few differences, some are long discarded or use by a few for specific purposes, some are raw, crude and full of risks and downsides while others are sophisticated, well designed but inflexible in their consistency. The perfect list is a mess that allows for believable production of any effect and as well believable existence of rules that create that effect while offering plausible reasons why it may not always work that way all the time.

after all different types of magic are created for different purposes and reasons, and merely listing DnD's is incredibly limited and arrow for what a perfect list would require.

[Galithar]

Say you're writing a new list of magic by types. What's your preferred list?

An example of what I'm looking for, from Dungeons and Dragons 5th edition:


Abjuration: Shielding, Denial.
Conjuration: Teleportation, Summoning, Creation.
Divination: Scouting, Scrying, Foretelling.
Enchantment: Manipulating minds.
Evocation: Energy, Healing.
Illusion: Illusions. Duh.
Necromancy: Manipulation of life energy, reviving the fallen and raising the dead.
Transmutation: Manipulation of existing matter



Although I think I'd prefer:

Soul: Manipulation of Life Energy, Mind Manipulation, Raising the Dead
Planar: Teleportation, Scouting, Scrying.
Force: Shielding, Summoning, Mobility, Denial
Reality: Foretelling, reviving the fallen, illusions
Matter: Healing, manipulation of existing matter, energy, creation.



Soul: Manipulation of life energy. Healing, raising, animating.
Time: Manipulation of times flow: Foretelling and predictive magic. Haste/Slow effects
Power: Manipulation of raw magic: Shielding and Blasting
Mind: Manipulation of thoughts: Charms, Fear, Dominate type spells, detecting thoughts and shielding from the same effects. Illusions
Space: Manipulation of physical world: Teleportation, summoning creatures from another place.
Reality: Manipulation of... Reality? (Lol I kind blanked on that one). Conjuring creatures and Blasting with physical components. (5E meteor swarm) Creation of physical barriers (Wall of Stone etc)

[Kyutaru]

Another option I like is Magic tied to Emotions.

Joy - All buff magic, invigorating the soul and steeling against depressive acts
Trust - All mind magic, influencing others (or yourself) to believe in your will
Fear - All illusion magic, whether scaring you to death or creating false realities
Surprise - All creation magic, calling or forming things from out of thin air
Sadness - All debuff magic, infecting the soul with depression and a broken spirit
Disgust - All wards and repulsion magic, keeping away from you what you hate
Anger - All destruction magic, the raw energy of annihilation, elemental or not
Anticipation - All divination magic, predicting the future and how it will affect you

And there are plenty of synonyms for the schools like Antipathy, Apathy, Passion, Depression, etc.

[Quertus]

You could have Soul be the protection school. Abjuration needs to be somewhere and where better than guarding your soul against outside magic?

Certainly, wielding your soul as weapon or aegis - arguably some of the most dangerous combat magic - falls under this domain. But "Abjuration" did not match to any one of my 6 "schools"; rather, *how* the Abjuration functioned determined who got it. So Mind Blank would have fallen under Mind, while Resist Elements would be Energy. Continent Teleport would be Dimension, but Contingent Heal would take both Dimension and Life.

[Ken Murikumo]

I've been scheming something like this for a bit. I wanted to migrate away from the standard "schools" of magic and arrange it with broad categories. This is pre-first draft stuff, so go easy on it.

Also, the idea of power behind everything is weaponizing ones own soul (or ego if you lack one) to cast magic or use powerful special abilities.

Rune Magic allows the user to change object or even world parameters, allowing the user to buff or debuff items, enhance certain aspects of a characters abilities, and even create traps or areas of magic alteration.

Ritual Magic allows the user to create long lasting or even permanent alterations and buffs to characters, areas, or even items.

Red Magic allows the user to spontaneously create short term buffs or debuffs on characters, items, or even areas.

White Magic allows the user to heal damage, undo negative effects, or even "supercharge" the soul of themselves or others

Black Magic allows the user to do direct intentional harm to others or even those in an area.

Spirit Magic allows the user to create personal or emanation buffs on only themselves, or even "supercharge" their own soul.


"White", "red", & "black" are just place holders at the moment. I took notes from final fantasy but the overall idea is similar.

[Man_Over_Game]

Soul: Manipulation of life energy. Healing, raising, animating.
Time: Manipulation of times flow: Foretelling and predictive magic. Haste/Slow effects
Power: Manipulation of raw magic: Shielding and Blasting
Mind: Manipulation of thoughts: Charms, Fear, Dominate type spells, detecting thoughts and shielding from the same effects. Illusions
Space: Manipulation of physical world: Teleportation, summoning creatures from another place.
Reality: Manipulation of... Reality? (Lol I kind blanked on that one). Conjuring creatures and Blasting with physical components. (5E meteor swarm) Creation of physical barriers (Wall of Stone etc)


My goal wasn't necessarily to copy the Infinite Stones, just to break them into branches that make reasonable sense.

For example, someone's mind and soul are often considered the same thing, so...why aren't they?

Energy and Matter are intertwined in our own universe, and I'd like an arrangement that reflects that.

Although, after thinking about it a bit more, my perfect list would be:


Soul: Manipulation, undead.
Force: Moving stuff, pushing stuff, deflecting stuff.
Reality: Illusions, scouting, some revival stuff.
Energy: Manipulating both matter and energy.



These also tie into tropes that feel natural. A portal (Force) mage would cast different spells than a transmutation (Energy) mage, yet you wouldn't expect much difference between someone who raises the dead or someone who forcefully manipulates people's minds. You also wouldn't expect much difference between someone who manipulates lightning vs. someone who manipulates fire.

Someone says they're a Force mage, and you know exactly what they're capable of doing. Someone says they're a Reality mage, you know they're really weird and you want to keep your distance. If you found out someone was a Soul mage, you might think he was a bad guy. You don't have to know exactly what spells they have prepared to know what they're going to do.

[Millstone85]

Sources:

proper - magic found inside one's own mind (psionics), body (ki) and soul (incarnum)
ambient - magic found everywhere in the world and the planes, AKA arcane magic
shared - magic lent by another being, often divine, or pooled from a collective

Schools:

dimensional - manipulation of space or time, for travel or summoning
elemental - evocation and transmutation of energy and matter
mental - telepathy, telekinesis, divination, illusion, mind control
vital - healing, sickening, resurrection, undeath

Countereffects belong to the same school as the effects they thwart. For example, denying teleportation to or from an area is a form of dimensional magic.

[LudicSavant]

I'd start with the specific setting, and the way magic works there, and the sorts of magic that are possible and why, before trying to create a list like this.

More or less. If you try to make a "perfect list" independent of system and setting you're doomed to get an imperfect list.

As Malcolm Gladwell and Howard Moskowitz put it, there is no perfect pasta sauce. There are only perfect pasta sauces.

[Galithar]

My goal wasn't necessarily to copy the Infinite Stones, just to break them into branches that make reasonable sense.

For example, someone's mind and soul are often considered the same thing, so...why aren't they?

Energy and Matter are intertwined in our own universe, and I'd like an arrangement that reflects that.

Although, after thinking about it a bit more, my perfect list would be:


Soul: Manipulation, undead.
Force: Moving stuff, pushing stuff, deflecting stuff.
Reality: Illusions, scouting, some revival stuff.
Energy: Manipulating both matter and energy.



These also tie into tropes that feel natural. A portal (Force) mage would cast different spells than a transmutation (Energy) mage, yet you wouldn't expect much difference between someone who raises the dead or someone who forcefully manipulates people's minds. You also wouldn't expect much difference between someone who manipulates lightning vs. someone who manipulates fire.

Someone says they're a Force mage, and you know exactly what they're capable of doing. Someone says they're a Reality mage, you know they're really weird and you want to keep your distance. If you found out someone was a Soul mage, you might think he was a bad guy. You don't have to know exactly what spells they have prepared to know what they're going to do.

I know you weren't. I was just making a joke out of copying the infinity stones since you had a couple that lined up :P

My actual separations in my Homebrew aren't split into 'schools' they're split based on where they come from. So they don't exactly seem relevant here.
Eldritch, Arcane, Primal, and Divine

[Kyutaru]

Although, after thinking about it a bit more, my perfect list would be:


Soul: Manipulation, undead.
Force: Moving stuff, pushing stuff, deflecting stuff.
Reality: Illusions, scouting, some revival stuff.
Energy: Manipulating both matter and energy.



The Force is strong with this list. Jedi Masters everywhere approve.

[Quertus]

So, I've thought about "perfect" for a bit, and I agree with several other posters that it is setting dependant.

IMO, the perfect system would have numerous *sources*, each of which would follow different rules, and one of which would follow the rules for "the Wizard I've always wanted to run (but never could, because no system supports him mechanically)".

So, one source of power might require casters to select one and only one area of influence. Another might split magic up completely differently, and punish casters who cast spells from multiple schools simultaneously (ie, that Wizard could cast a Fire magic spell, and Light magic spell, just fine, but when they cast a spell that is both a Fire *and* Light spell, they suffer Consequences). A third may be entirely dependent upon knowledge of and relationships with outsiders, as their power involves invoking (alla Marvel facerip sorcerers), summoning, and Binding (alla the Binder class) various entities. Etc etc etc.

That, IMO, is what the *perfect* system would look like.

[NichG]

My preference is to go a layer deeper and have each type of magic say something about the relationship between practitioners and the universe - so that there's a 'why' behind the ability of a practitioner to manipulate those effects. It's fine if individual characters have access to more than one, but each type of magic should give a strong feeling of what sorts of internal rules and restrictions characterize what it can do. Ideally, a player should be able to have a good feeling of 'of course you can't do X with Y, that's obvious; you need Z instead'.

So I don't really like something at the level of, for example, 'abjurations are separate because protections serve one kind of combat role, whereas direct damage is another' because then no one really has a concept of why you shouldn't be able to make spells that increase AC by creating e.g. a force shield with evocation or a rock shield with conjuration or turning your skin into metal with transmutation. And then as the system grows and is expanded, you tend to have things lose their distinctiveness as more and more methods of one category to emulate the others are developed - e.g. 'you can do everything with conjurations'.

In that regard, 'Illusion' is an example of a good category. Illusion has the underlying structure of 'there is this concept of Shadow, which roughly corresponds to the patterns that things make independent of their actual substance or nature. Illusions work by manipulating shadow independently of the thing that casts it - changing the image that an object presents to the world without changing the object, etc.' There's scope creep when you get 'shadows that are more real than reality' and so on, so I'd want to either stop before that point or make that sort of effect require special circumstances. 'Enchantment' has the potential to be a good category, but is missing the same cosmological underpinnings that Illusion has which make the separation real.

On the other hand, you could break things down by the specific acts necessary to manipulate magic. So everything that can be done with a word and a gesture is one category, while things that require carving runes is another, and things that work via distilling the essences of nature into mystical substances (potions, crystals, etc) would be a third, cultivating creatures (or oneself) in the presence of different magical fields to modify their nature would be a fourth, and so on. Then the underpinnings don't have to be quite so cosmological in nature (you don't need a 'plane of Divination, plane of Evocation, etc') but correspond to practical difficulties in accessing magic that require distinct tools and disciplines to overcome. In that case, it's still good to have a reason why those things end up being split up. For example, the Incanter can create instantaneous events with words and gestures, but ontological inertia means that long-term effects aren't possible and the limitations of short sequences of words and gestures to specify information means that the complexity of what they achieve is also limited. However, in the presence of large amounts of ready power, the Incanter has much more flexibility in improvising and directing that power (as a conductor of an orchestra) than someone using other practices, and an interacting with magic via incantation builds is more intuitive and organic - so they learn to understand standing magical effects by feel, or can inject small variations in a standing magical effect's function.