Best non-dip multiclass combinations

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

Curious to figure out which class combinations are best for multiclasses where the class distribution is as close to equal as possible. I know things like 10/10 are generally considered badly optimized, but there are some that come close to having evenly distributed class levels and are still pretty goof.

Ones I can think of off the top of my head are Fighter 11/Anything X, Rogue 11/Something X, and possibly some flavor of Sorcadins that went melee heavy.

Any thoughts on good class combos that are close to even as possible? Or even triple/quadruple classed characters that could rock 7/7/6 or 5/5/5/5 or something.

[moonfly7]

Barbarian 10 Rogue 10 is always good, good unarmored ac, extra barb damage plus sneak is handy. And a sneaky barbarian could be awesome. Also think about rogue and ranger dips, revised ranger I mean. At higher levels you get hide in plane sight, and the +2/4 favored enemy damage is good when added to sneak damage, especially if you combine two weapon fighting.
Now add barbarian and ranger and rogue, and you got crazy good combat and skill versatility. Makes you a great skill monkey with good combat abilities. Plus minor spell casting will be nice, hunters Mark alone adds crazy good damage.

[Man_Over_Game]

Warlocks work fine with other caster levels, as the Warlock slots help fuel another caster's large list of known spells. You can make a strong utility caster that way.

Rogues and almost anything with Extra Attack would work fine.

Druid and Monk makes a solid combo that relies on Wisdom and non-Concentration spells from Druid with the lethality and mobility of a Monk.

[Zhorn]

Fighter + anything. The Fighter chassis is pretty sturdy, and action surge, second wind, and those extra ASIs can compliment a lot of diverse builds. Lots of breakpoints too, with very few to no stretches of dead levels (depending on what you're pairing it with and what subclass).

[PhantomSoul]

Barbarian 10 Rogue 10 is always good, good unarmored ac, extra barb damage plus sneak is handy. And a sneaky barbarian could be awesome. Also think about rogue and ranger dips, revised ranger I mean. At higher levels you get hide in plane sight, and the +2/4 favored enemy damage is good when added to sneak damage, especially if you combine two weapon fighting.
Now add barbarian and ranger and rogue, and you got crazy good combat and skill versatility. Makes you a great skill monkey with good combat abilities. Plus minor spell casting will be nice, hunters Mark alone adds crazy good damage.

Not to mention that Barbarian 2's Danger Sense (Advantage on Dexterity Throws against Effects that you can See) combines great with the Rogue's Evasion (full Damage reduced to Half or Half Damage to none if you could Halve the Damage on a Dexterity Saving Throw Success)

[Galithar]

Paladin 7 Eldritch Knight 7 Hexblade 6 seems like a not fully optimized but viable mix.

Eldritch Knight gives BB/GFB plus bonus action attack. Keeping up the melee damage and still making use of that casting ability.

Hexblade makes you SAD allowing Cha attacking.

Paladin gives awesome Auras.

I might actually have to try to fully flesh this build out to see what levels it's viable and what levels it would suck.

[Nhorianscum]

Ranger 5-7 Anything 15-13.

Barbarian 7 rouge/warlock 13

First things that came to mind outside of paladin6-whatevers and 11/x rouge whatevers. (worth noting that AT gets to do 9/x splits and EK can rock 7/13 or 13/7)

Martial bladelocks can bail after 12 if all they want is more damage.

[Zigludo]

Rogue / [literally any class that gives extra attack] is good. But preferably one that gives Archery or TWF fighting style or shields.


I know things like 10/10 are generally considered badly optimized, but there are some that come close to having evenly distributed class levels and are still pretty goof.


it's not 10/10 but Fighter11/Rogue9 is fantastic. the only tricky bit is figuring when exactly you want to take the Rogue levels.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Paladin 7 Eldritch Knight 7 Hexblade 6 seems like a not fully optimized but viable mix.

Eldritch Knight gives BB/GFB plus bonus action attack. Keeping up the melee damage and still making use of that casting ability.

Hexblade makes you SAD allowing Cha attacking.

Paladin gives awesome Auras.

I might actually have to try to fully flesh this build out to see what levels it's viable and what levels it would suck.

Why not just drop EK entirely? You can get BB/GFB from a feat or by being a high elf or several other ways. It seems like you'd be better served by the additional levels of Paladin and Warlock.

[Deadandamnation]

Combination that Could work imo (in theory):


Rogue Is probably the most versatile class to multiclass with:

Fighter/Ranger/Barbarian/Bard/Warlock/Wizard can be good multiclassed with Rogue.

Second best Is probably Warlock:

Paladin, Bard, Sorcerer (for the Cha synergy could work), any other martial class can get a sort of flavour by taking levels of Warlock.

Third best are Fighter and Bard:

Any martial class can become better at fighting, Barbarian, Paladin, Rogue, Ranger, Bard even Cleric.

While the Bard actually mesh well with any Cha user (Paladin, Sorc, Warlock) and any Dex user except Ranger (Fighter, Rogue...possibly even Monk)

Than a Dual Caster Combination Could Work:

Cleric/Druid or Sorc/Bard...Wizard Is probably hard since it's the only INT full caster.

[Arkhios]

I'm particularly fond of Eldritch Knight 15/Wizard 5 (or Arcane Trickster 15/Wizard 5) combination. For the record, in my honest opinion, a dip means one or two levels, maybe three, if sub-class is relevant.

Gets you only up to 3rd level wizard spells to be fair, but also up to 5th level spell slots, and a "caster level" 10, equal to Paladin or Ranger. Many of the best wizard spells are 3rd level or lower.

[Galithar]

Why not just drop EK entirely? You can get BB/GFB from a feat or by being a high elf or several other ways. It seems like you'd be better served by the additional levels of Paladin and Warlock.

Because doing it on a pure Paladin or Warlock loses extra attack.

EK gets the bonus action attack after casting a cantrip.

BB at level 11 is 2d8+2d6+15 (using Greatsword and GWM with a 20 CHA) then the EK gets 2d6+15 on a bonus action. Plus being able to smite on either attack.

It's not perfectly optimal sure, but the point isn't too make a perfectly optimized triple class character. It's just to make a viable one.

[Deadandamnation]

What About A Paladin/Sorcerer and Warlock triple Class?

It could take Extra Attack from either Warlock or Paladin, Heavy Armor or Dex, some invocations and a lot of spells to fuel Smite plus Metamagic.

It would be fun at least

[Talionis]

Warlock basically gets nothing after level eleven so I second that kind of break for them works.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Because doing it on a pure Paladin or Warlock loses extra attack.

EK gets the bonus action attack after casting a cantrip.

BB at level 11 is 2d8+2d6+15 (using Greatsword and GWM with a 20 CHA) then the EK gets 2d6+15 on a bonus action. Plus being able to smite on either attack.

It's not perfectly optimal sure, but the point isn't too make a perfectly optimized triple class character. It's just to make a viable one.

Then drop BB/GFB entirely. Paladin 9/Warlock 11 or Paladin 11/Warlock 9 are both viable as-is, if you're not trying to heavily optimize. Heck, there are plenty of good breakpoints in between a 5/15 break and a 15/5 break. Even just going straight 10/10 isn't terrible, although never getting a third spell slot per short rest nor buffed smite damage kinda hurts.

[Spiritchaser]

Paladin 12 sorcerer 8 is totally solid, tough, capable and can hit like a truck. Levelling order can be tough to choose but...

EK 11, sorcerer (I Prefer DS or draconic) 9 can pump out some absurd shadow blade damage while still being fully capable at lots of other things

Edit: one I’ve never tried but always wanted to AT 9 or 12 or so, balance sorcerer.

Expertise in stealth and magical ambush with subtle spell should allow some great shinanigans. Never tried it though.

[Vogie]

Curse Archer (Arcane Archer and Warlock Combo) will end up with some non-dip combination of 7/13, 11/9, and 5/15 blends

[Snowbluff]

Combination that Could work imo (in theory):


Rogue Is probably the most versatile class to multiclass with:

Fighter/Ranger/Barbarian/Bard/Warlock/Wizard can be good multiclassed with Rogue.


Some of these are obviously better than others. I think BLadesinger + ROgue is a natural combo, and Barb5/RogueX is very powerful and basically a strict upgrade to barb.

I've played a Paladin/Rogue (kobold, but would be better with other classes). It's quite nice having that combination of good armor + shields + save bonuses and rogues reaction + evasion makes for a tanky fighter. Both classes get damage bonuses for good DPR, and having SA even helps paladin fight at range.

[Galithar]

Then drop BB/GFB entirely. Paladin 9/Warlock 11 or Paladin 11/Warlock 9 are both viable as-is, if you're not trying to heavily optimize. Heck, there are plenty of good breakpoints in between a 5/15 break and a 15/5 break. Even just going straight 10/10 isn't terrible, although never getting a third spell slot per short rest nor buffed smite damage kinda hurts.

Did you miss the point where the intent was to create a triple classes character? Saying you can do this completely unrelated thing has exactly 0 to do with it. And a 10/10 split actually is terrible. Level 11 has too much to offer from too many classes to consider going 10 and not picking up 11.

The triple class I chose has intentional break points.

EK had a level 7 break point at getting the bonus attack after casting.
Paladin had a break point at 7 for their Oath aura.
Only Warlock doesn't have a strong break point at that level, but I figured to make the levels more even.

Overall it would probably be better with 8 EK/7 Paladin/5 Warlock but the levels aren't as even.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Did you miss the point where the intent was to create a triple classes character? Saying you can do this completely unrelated thing has exactly 0 to do with it. And a 10/10 split actually is terrible. Level 11 has too much to offer from too many classes to consider going 10 and not picking up 11.


Painful? Yes. I did say it'd hurt to miss out on the tipping point for both classes. Terrible? Eh, that really depends on your table's definition of terrible. I wouldn't call it categorically so, especially when the power difference is only going to show at very high levels since going 11/9 you're probably not going to hit 11 in the one class 'til level 16+. As for three-way vs. two-way vs. more-way split, I refer you to the OP:


Curious to figure out which class combinations are best for multiclasses where the class distribution is as close to equal as possible. I know things like 10/10 are generally considered badly optimized, but there are some that come close to having evenly distributed class levels and are still pretty goof.

Ones I can think of off the top of my head are Fighter 11/Anything X, Rogue 11/Something X, and possibly some flavor of Sorcadins that went melee heavy.

Any thoughts on good class combos that are close to even as possible? Or even triple/quadruple classed characters that could rock 7/7/6 or 5/5/5/5 or something.

With that said, I think Eldritch Knight 7/Arcane Trickster 6/Wizard 7 is a fun combination. Sure, you only end up getting 4th level spells, but you have great flexibility and more cantrips than you can shake a stick at. Plus, you have some high-mid-level slots for upcasting, and a diverse set of goodies (such as lots of expertise, sneak attack, etc.) and the Wizard levels give you rituals without having to spend a feat.

[Nhorianscum]

Painful? Yes. I did say it'd hurt to miss out on the tipping point for both classes. Terrible? Eh, that really depends on your table's definition of terrible. I wouldn't call it categorically so, especially when the power difference is only going to show at very high levels since going 11/9 you're probably not going to hit 11 in the one class 'til level 16+. As for three-way vs. two-way vs. more-way split, I refer you to the OP:



With that said, I think Eldritch Knight 7/Arcane Trickster 6/Wizard 7 is a fun combination. Sure, you only end up getting 4th level spells, but you have great flexibility and more cantrips than you can shake a stick at. Plus, you have some high-mid-level slots for upcasting, and a diverse set of goodies (such as lots of expertise, sneak attack, etc.) and the Wizard levels give you rituals without having to spend a feat.

Fun is sorta subjective.... Buuuut...

AT past 3 and wiz (all of it) is doing strictly less than levels in wispers bard here with no real payoff and there's very little synergy between the classes used.

It works but there's nothing gained from the higher investment.

[thereaper]

Some Martial 5/Cleric 15

It even (shockingly) works with Barbarian. Paladin is the only weak case (but they want Sorcadin anyway).

Most martials get their best things by level 5, and stagnate afterwards. The Cleric levels add spellcasting and martial capability (either through spiritual weapon, bonus attacks through War domain, or Divine Strike).

[Arkhios]

Some Martial 5/Cleric 15

It even (shockingly) works with Barbarian. Paladin is the only weak case (but they want Sorcadin anyway).

Most martials get their best things by level 5, and stagnate afterwards. The Cleric levels add spellcasting and martial capability (either through spiritual weapon, bonus attacks through War domain, or Divine Strike).

Now that I think of it, Fighter (eldritch knight) 15/Cleric (War Domain) 5 could be fun, to be honest. Picking up non-save, non-spell attack spells from Wizard, and maximizing Wisdom should be easy enough to do, thanks to 14+ fighter levels (both extra ASI's).

Three attacks with Attack Action, thanks to 11 Fighter levels, plus one attack for a Wisdom modifier times per long rest, if/when needed.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Fun is sorta subjective.... Buuuut...

AT past 3 and wiz (all of it) is doing strictly less than levels in wispers bard here with no real payoff and there's very little synergy between the classes used.

It works but there's nothing gained from the higher investment.

I mean, there's a tiny bit of synergy, inasmuch as you're keeping things down to only one casting stat. But to be honest, I mostly like how it harkens back to the Fighter/Mage/Thief of yesteryear.

[nickl_2000]

Some Martial 5/Cleric 15

It even (shockingly) works with Barbarian. Paladin is the only weak case (but they want Sorcadin anyway).

Most martials get their best things by level 5, and stagnate afterwards. The Cleric levels add spellcasting and martial capability (either through spiritual weapon, bonus attacks through War domain, or Divine Strike).

Not sure I agree with this at all.

Rogues - Sneak attack continues to grow, evasion at 7, Reliable Talent at 11. Stopping here is fine, but those are darn good skills.
Paladin - Aura at 6, Aura at 7, Anti-fear aura at 10, improved smite at 11
Barbarian - Okay, I will give you that one
Ranger - Ditto with Barbarian
Monk - Ki-Strikes 6, Evasion 7, Diamond Soul 14
Fighter - Extra ASI 6, 11 extra attack, Extra ASI 12, 2x Action Surge 17,

[Galithar]

Not sure I agree with this at all.

Rogues - Sneak attack continues to grow, evasion at 7, Reliable Talent at 11. Stopping here is fine, but those are darn good skills.
Paladin - Aura at 6, Aura at 7, Anti-fear aura at 10, improved smite at 11
Barbarian - Okay, I will give you that one
Ranger - Ditto with Barbarian
Monk - Ki-Strikes 6, Evasion 7, Diamond Soul 14
Fighter - Extra ASI 6, 11 extra attack, Extra ASI 12, 2x Action Surge 17,

I think the proper wording for the original statement should have been "Extra attack on a full caster is great so taking 5 levels in any martial will get that for you" lol

Martials all have things with investing in later levels, maybe not so much the Ranger (I don't know... I don't like rangers in general so I've honestly never looked too close at them in 5e) but even the Barbarian gets things like not being able to be forced out of rage, which is definitely a huge boost to them. Though they do probably have one of the weaker cases to keep going compared to Fighter, Paladin, and Rogues.

[thereaper]

Not sure I agree with this at all.

Rogues - Sneak attack continues to grow, evasion at 7, Reliable Talent at 11. Stopping here is fine, but those are darn good skills.
Paladin - Aura at 6, Aura at 7, Anti-fear aura at 10, improved smite at 11
Barbarian - Okay, I will give you that one
Ranger - Ditto with Barbarian
Monk - Ki-Strikes 6, Evasion 7, Diamond Soul 14
Fighter - Extra ASI 6, 11 extra attack, Extra ASI 12, 2x Action Surge 17,

Reliable Talent is statistically weaker than Jack of All Trades, a level 2 feature. Evasion and Diamond Soul are just more durability. Most of the rest of what you listed (Paladins are the exception I was thinking of when I said "most martials") is just more damage. But KPR charts clearly show that martials scale slower than monsters past a certain point anyway (localized exceptions exist, but in the long run it holds true), so offensive features are irrelevant. This is why multiclassing into spellcasters is so attractive to martials; your martial prowess is going to fall behind the monsters no matter what you do, so why not give up slightly more of it and get some features that don't fall behind? Given that spellcasters scale faster than the threats they face (otherwise high level parties wouldn't be able to face higher level monsters at all, since the martials are contributing less and less over time), then the martials have two choices: either get carried by the spellcasters, or become spellcasters themselves.

[Galithar]

You mind showing your work on the claim that Reliable Talent is weaker then Jack of All Trades?

To me preventing a bad roll from ever happening (11 is the average and the minimum you have to keep) is better than adding half proficiency bonus? +3 is great, but if I don't have proficiency then it's probably something I'm not trying a lot and having just a +3 isn't that fantastic. Not being able to fail a DC 20 check on the other hand is fantastic. Granted I may not be and to do that on all skills that reliable talent applies to, but I can guarantee DC 15 on those that may have lower attributes.

A fighter can consistently put out 3*(2d6+15) every turn at high levels. What is the caster doing that is soooo superior to that? 66 average damage is nothing to scoff at. (Yes I am aware that doesn't account for AC, but the caster has to bypass AC or a save also) I get that casters are generally stronger, but to say it's more worthwhile to be a gimped caster (losing 5 caster levels is nothing to scoff at) then to actually be good at what I do (hitting things with a stick, or poking then with a stick) .

Now note, I'm not saying you're categorically wrong. I'm just asking for evidence to back up what you're saying because I don't see it.

[Snowbluff]

You mind showing your work on the claim that Reliable Talent is weaker then Jack of All Trades?

To me preventing a bad roll from ever happening (11 is the average and the minimum you have to keep) is better than adding half proficiency bonus? +3 is great, but if I don't have proficiency then it's probably something I'm not trying a lot and having just a +3 isn't that fantastic. Not being able to fail a DC 20 check on the other hand is fantastic. Granted I may not be and to do that on all skills that reliable talent applies to, but I can guarantee DC 15 on those that may have lower attributes.


You're bonuses for your expertise skills are going to be quite high already. For the most part an ability check isn't going to be a major decider in combat, with the exception of spells a rogue doesn't know (Counterspell, Dispel, and Telekinesis, which are all super strong with Reliable Talent + Jack of Trades i you've a crazy Cha). Outside of combat, a lot of skill checks can just be avoided.

[thereaper]

You mind showing your work on the claim that Reliable Talent is weaker then Jack of All Trades?

To me preventing a bad roll from ever happening (11 is the average and the minimum you have to keep) is better than adding half proficiency bonus? +3 is great, but if I don't have proficiency then it's probably something I'm not trying a lot and having just a +3 isn't that fantastic. Not being able to fail a DC 20 check on the other hand is fantastic. Granted I may not be and to do that on all skills that reliable talent applies to, but I can guarantee DC 15 on those that may have lower attributes.

A fighter can consistently put out 3*(2d6+15) every turn at high levels. What is the caster doing that is soooo superior to that? 66 average damage is nothing to scoff at. (Yes I am aware that doesn't account for AC, but the caster has to bypass AC or a save also) I get that casters are generally stronger, but to say it's more worthwhile to be a gimped caster (losing 5 caster levels is nothing to scoff at) then to actually be good at what I do (hitting things with a stick, or poking then with a stick) .

Now note, I'm not saying you're categorically wrong. I'm just asking for evidence to back up what you're saying because I don't see it.

Reliable Talent comes out to +2.75 for skills you are proficient in. By the time you get Reliable Talent, Jack of All Trades is giving you +2 to any ability check. Given that there are far more ability checks than you will have proficiency for, Jack of All Trades is more powerful. And this is before we consider that Jack of All Trades applies to things like Initiative and seeing through illusions.

Do you accept that high level parties can stand up to equal level threats with similar chances of victory as they could at earlier levels? If you say yes, then you are tacitly acknowledging that spellcasters are carrying the party more and more over time, because it is a mathematical fact that the martials are contributing less over time. Go look at a KPR chart. Aside from localized exceptions (Fighter 11 being an example), you can clearly see that the martials' KPR are dropping over time. Therefore, the only way for the party to still have similar chances of victory is for the spellcasters to be picking up the slack, which means they are scaling faster than what they face.

Now, to be clear, I'm not claiming that any martial can just grab some random spells and keep up in terms of contribution (or even that the example build I gave is necessarily optimal for all conditions; it's an example). You have to pick the right spells. There are a lot of low-level spells this edition that scale more or less automatically (and this is a key part of why spellcasters scale faster than what they face; martials are burning their level ups to fall behind a bit more slowly, while most of what spellcasters get is just gravy). A few examples include Healing Word (due to the way healing works this edition), Minor Illusion (even if your save DC is garbage, the target might never get to attempt one, and has to spend an action even if they do), Guidance, Find Familiar, Rope Trick, and many more. Note that some of these don't even diminish in usefulness significantly if multiple party members have them (Guidance, for example), and even for the ones that do, taking it means that another member of the party can prepare or learn something else.

Other ways of achieving something like this are to go AT or EK with carefully selected spell lists (EK in particular, since most of its spells scale poorly), Shadow Monk, or a Totem Warrior with Magic Initiate (Ranger is a weird case; it pretty much needs to multiclass not because it doesn't have utility, but because the class itself doesn't offer enough damage for it to even do its job at higher levels). The Ritual Caster feat can also accomplish this, I suppose, but it only makes sense if no one else in the party has the one you're going for (Wizards effectively already have Ritual Caster: Wizard, for example). I would argue that those still aren't as strong as Martial 5/Cleric 15, but they scale a heck of a lot better than a noncaster ever will.

In other words, you are not becoming a spellcaster who is trading several spell levels for an extra attack. You are a martial who has given up +X damage to double or even triple your utility.

I mean, think about it. Which contributes more to a party? A Barbarian that needs 4 turns to kill something; or a Barbarian that needs 5 turns to kill something, but has higher initiative from Guidance (arguably making up the difference right there), better ability checks from Guidance, the ability to open trapped doors without ever approaching them (Thaumaturgy), better Intimidation (Thaumaturgy again), 3 Druid rituals, spotting things from a literal mile away, and the ability to detect magic once a day? The answer is obvious.

[MaxWilson]

Curious to figure out which class combinations are best for multiclasses where the class distribution is as close to equal as possible. I know things like 10/10 are generally considered badly optimized, but there are some that come close to having evenly distributed class levels and are still pretty goof.

Ones I can think of off the top of my head are Fighter 11/Anything X, Rogue 11/Something X, and possibly some flavor of Sorcadins that went melee heavy.

Any thoughts on good class combos that are close to even as possible? Or even triple/quadruple classed characters that could rock 7/7/6 or 5/5/5/5 or something.

I don't know if you consider it a dip, but I rather like Divine Soul 4/Shepherd Druid 11/Celestialock 5 (Eldritch Blasting from behind a wall of summons while still being the party healer/resurrector), Illusionist 9/Shepherd Druid 8/Mastermind 3 (shapeshifting + Malleable Illusion + movement and summoning spells = Merlin).

If you insist on having fairly evenly-split classes then I'd nominate either Sharpshooter Eldritch Knight 11/Swashbuckler 9 (SAD but high-damage and very versatile) or Skulker Arcane Trickster 9/Enchanter 11 (because Split Spell + Charm Monster + Magical Ambush = sneak ahead and turn all of the toughest enemies into friendlies, at disadvantage on their saves, with no concentration cost and at half spell slot price--also Magical Ambush goes well with spells like Fear and Hypnotic Pattern when combat rolls around).

[Galithar]

Okay you're right... In reference the situations you mention. Now looking at this.

A barbarian loses 2-3 HP per level of caster they take. They remain limited in how many times they can rage, and they can be forced out of rage.

Your Barbarian that kills the enemy in 5 rounds instead of 4 might not survive all 5 rounds.

You get stunned, which forces you out of rage and are now taking full damage with 20-30 less max health. That's a loss of 40-60 effective hit points. You didn't make your character stronger, you made it better at certain things.

Not too mention your argument that Jack of all Trades would give the Barbarian better initiative... Feral instinct gives them Advantage and allows them to act even if surprised. That's FAR superior to a +1 they would be getting at that level (maybe +2... Does it round up or down?) So the straight Barbarian ends the encounter on round 4 before the enemy acts and the other in round 5 possibly after the enemy acts. If it's an ambush they don't end it until round 6 because the first round they were surprised. That's taking an extra 1 or 2 rounds of damage, that then makes up for any utility gained elsewhere.

Now I'm not saying it's never good to multiclass a martial, there are builds where it's good. But to say every martial is better off multiclassing to a caster after level 5 is simply wrong. It's a good break point, yes. But not a 'everything after this point is worse then what you get elsewhere, full stop'

[thereaper]

It's Guidance I was suggesting Barbarians get, not Jack of all Trades. That is still weaker than Feral Instinct for initiative, yes, but the two Barbarian builds I was comparing at the end wasn't a Barb vs Barb/Cleric, but a Barbarian with a damage-focused subclass like a Berserker or Zealot vs a Totem Warrior with Magic Initiate (specifically one with the level 6 Eagle feature, Guidance, Thaumaturgy, and Detect Magic), so both would have Feral Instinct. Of those two, the second is a stronger character by far. This is the same reasoning for why the Berserker is a poor subclass; it sacrifices everything for a tiny bit more damage, and still can't keep up with the monsters. Martials as a group (with exceptions like the ones outlined previously) are like Berserkers; they sacrifice everything for damage, and in the long run end up not even being all that good at what they tried to specialize in.

If our hypothetical Barbarian can't survive 5 rounds, then the party is almost certainly going to die regardless of what the Barbarian does, because they would make mincemeat out of the rest of the party before getting to the Barbarian (unless your DM is having intelligent monsters inexplicably attack the Barbarian first, despite them being one of the least threatening members of any high level party). If losing an extra 5% or 10% prevents the Barbarian from doing his job, then he was never good at it to begin with. So that actually supports my point that he shouldn't be throwing more levels into Barbarian.

And don't forget, a high level Barbarian cannot end the encounter by themselves, because they've been outscaled by the monsters. The question then is, will they continue to throw away more levels in a fruitless struggle to try and keep up, or give up a tiny bit more and actually get something good that will help out their party more?

I also feel I haven't been clear enough about something. Multiclassing into a spellcasting class isn't necessarily the only solution (though I would claim it the overall strongest option); getting utility (generally through magic) is. This is most easily obtained through multiclassing, but some subclasses and feats (Magic Initiate and Ritual Caster) also enable it. I suppose you could also try to do so by accumulating as many skill bonuses as possible, but even this would most likely require getting magic, simply because of how incredibly powerful Guidance is for skill checks.

[Galithar]

Well obviously it's good to pick up something like magic initiate, but only if it outweighs what you give up. The original statement that I was arguing against was that 'All martials should probably just multiclass out after 5'. Maybe I'm misinterpreting your statement here, it happens to me a lot. :P

But being a well rounded Martial and being a Martial 5/Full Caster are not the same thing. If your proposed barbarian with Magic Initiate was straight classed then they can have guidance AND Feral Instinct, which is as you said clearly superior to either one alone. But if you're talking about them talking a great you needed to compare it to the alternative. What feat did they give up to take it? What was the opportunity cost? If it was giving up GWM are they really doing better? Probably not. If they take it over a Str ASI are they doing better? Maybe.

All characters are better when they are well rounded. But your initial statement was that they should multiclass, not that they should look to broaden their abilities and shore up weaknesses. I get it that you think spell casters are better, but that doesn't make them the way to go. Also the spells suggested for the Barbarian are better off just left to the full caster to take to begin with. Why does the Barbarian need Thaumaturgy if the Cleric already has it? Why do they need Guidance if the Cleric has it? The Barbarian is already doing good on initiative checks so it's not a strong selling point to make it just a little bit better.

Also if these builds are going to the fabled level 20 it's hard to pass up 24 Str and 20+ Con.

Again I'm not saying that multiclassing is bad, I'm saying you need to look at the opportunity costs. Same for choosing certain feats. Does Magic Initiate really make up for what the Barbarian loses to take it? In some builds yes, in some no.

[thereaper]

Guidance doesn't lose it's usefulness if multiple people have it. It isn't necessary for multiple people to have Thaumaturgy, but that just means you take Mending to repair all those broken weapons you find so you can sell them (or even so that you can maintain your own equipment), or take something else (Find Familiar and Minor Illusion are arguably better when multiple people have them). Every spell you take is a spell someone else doesn't need to take.

Even with that +4 str and con, the KPR charts don't lie. The Barbarian is still behind where she was at level 5.

The thing about being a well-rounded character, is that most martial builds literally cannot be well-rounded, because being well-rounded implies the ability to be able to contribute in a wide variety of ways, and something like a Champion fighter simply cannot do so within its class, and must therefore go outside of it if it wants to do so. Even the claim that an Eldritch Knight is well-rounded is questionable when the casters are good at literally twice as many things as he is. This isn't 4th edition; combat is only one portion of the game. If you're equal to (or even slightly better than) the casters in combat, and vastly inferior outside of it, then you are probably not pulling your weight in the party.

Multiclassing is the easiest way of solving the problem, and the end result will almost certainly be a stronger character overall (not in dpr, but in overall capacity for contribution). But if for some reason you want to give up less damage for it (or want to remain single-classed for thematic reasons), the alternative paths are there (though I don't think they really qualify as "well-rounded"; more like "less cripplingly overspecialized"). And if your DM or group is metagaming to show your character favoritism of some sort, then it isn't necessary at all. And, of course, some people don't care about their ability to contribute. I'm speaking purely in terms of maximizing one's ability to contribute to a party.

In any case, when I posted initially in the thread, it was not to start up a big discussion, it was simply to point out that Martial 5/Cleric 15 is one of the best non-dip multiclass combinations, and I do stand by that. I didn't mean that other builds were badwrongfun. And seriously, look at it! You lose relatively little martial power (since you get spiritual weapon, spirit guardians, and divine strike, not to mention bonus attacks from war domain, and an occasional +10 to hit for someone else), and gain up to 8th level spells from a very good list, with a loss of (usually) only 1 hp per level.

[bid]

Three attacks with Attack Action, thanks to 11 Fighter levels, plus one attack for a Wisdom modifier times per long rest, if/when needed.
And an extra 2d8 from divine strike.

[Snowbluff]

And an extra 2d8 from divine strike.

The second d8 is at level 14 for cleric, but it is a nice bump at level 8, especially if you've a good buff from spell access on top of that (like a crusaders mantle).

[bid]

Reliable Talent comes out to +2.75 for skills you are proficient in. By the time you get Reliable Talent, Jack of All Trades is giving you +2 to any ability check.
I don't think that's a fair way to present this. Reliable talent adds nothing for high DC but make lower ones auto-success. If you are guaranteed a minimum roll of 19, you still miss DC 20 check half the time.

Reliable talent turns into success all Dex and trained skill DC15 check. By level 13, it also works for some DC20 (Dex trained + most expertise) and DC25 (Dex expertise).

Bards are trained in about 1/3 the skills, I'd expect half their checks will use the bonus. A bard Dex14 would do as well as a rogue Dex20 for initiative at level 20, which allows you to push for Cha20 but doesn't give you anthing better.

I think bards gain more from joat. Rogues just skip rolls, removing the uncertainty, even if overall they don't do as well.

[Arkhios]

And an extra 2d8 from divine strike.

Except, if you'd read my post more carefully, you'd see that while I mentioned 11th Fighter level for obvious reasons, the build I envisioned in that post was Fighter 15/Cleric 5, so no Divine Strike.

That said, Eldritch Knight 12/War Cleric 8 could work just as well, if not better in some ways. You'd lose the 15th level Arcane Charge, and access to 3rd-level wizard spells (at 13th fighter level), which is a bit lame, but on the other hand, you'd gain access to 4th level cleric spells, and up to 6th level spell slots, 2 uses of channel divinity/short rest, 2nd Channel Divinity Option from domain, and the Divine Strike, as previously mentioned.

[Galithar]

@TheReaper
Since you're so big on KPR, would you kindly link your source for multiple builds of all classes KPRs? Because in my cursory search I can't find any KPR results on any casters other then one build (a horribly interpreted Twilight Druid build abusing MM). I'd like to see the results for something other then a Martial where KPR is meaningful because their damage is consistent. Some form of calculation proving that Casters in 5e are so superior in the KPR department as you've claimed.

Also we can move this to another thread (I'll make one), because as you've pointed out that we've drastically sidetracked the thread.

[thereaper]

I was using Kryx's DPR calculator (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=2035285798) (which has a KPR section).

At no point have I claimed that caster KPR matches or exceeds martial KPR. It's literally the only thing they don't do well (Warlocks are arguably an exception). I apologize if I gave you that impression.

The point is that martial kpr (in general; localized exceptions exist, as you can see) clearly decreases with level. That much is undeniable. Therefore, if you accept the premise that higher level parties can face higher level monsters with similar odds of success as lower level parties against lower level threats, then it can only be because the casters are picking up the slack. Whether they are doing it through burst, buffs, debuffs, healing, summons, or what, I can't say (and it almost certainly varies by group). The exact mechanisms aren't relevant, because the conclusion follows inevitably from what has already been established.

[Skylivedk]

A couple of my favourite builds are in this range of parameters

The true Jack:
Hexblade 5 (AB+Grasp of Hadar/Devil's Sight+Eldritch Smite)
Vengeance Paladin 6
(Lore) Bard 6
DS/Shadow/Dragon Sorc 3

You have:
- crazy versatility (metamagic, cantrips, skills, melee/range etc)
- good nuke (smite x 2)
- good short rest abilities (warlock + vow)
- great tanking (+5 to all saves, Upcast Armour of Agathys; Shield, Absorb Elements, Counterspell, maybe Shield Master).

I'd probably recommend Spirit Guardians for this guy from secrets and Twin+Quicken.

Iron Scoundrel:
Arcane Trickster/Swashbuckler Rogue 7
Zealot/Ancestral/Totem Barb 7
BM Fighter 6

Super tanky, extremely punishing to go away from due to SA

[Nhorianscum]

Not certain why JoAT is being discussed in a multi thread when wood elf magic + Observant + Knowledge cleric is a thing rouges can pick up. Auto success on every check in the game is a thing and JoAT does nothing to boost this.

[bid]

Not certain why JoAT is being discussed in a multi thread when wood elf magic + Observant + Knowledge cleric is a thing rouges can pick up. Auto success on every check in the game is a thing and JoAT does nothing to boost this.
Once per day proficiency is very far from auto-success.

[bid]

The second d8 is at level 14 for cleric, but it is a nice bump at level 8, especially if you've a good buff from spell access on top of that (like a crusaders mantle).
Yeah, I grafted my reply to the wrong post.

And divine strike is almost as good as a 3rd attack, yet another reason to stop at martial 5 and get more spells.

[Nhorianscum]

Once per day proficiency is very far from auto-success.

2/short rest.