Minor Creation->Puddle of oil?

[RoboEmperor]

I've been making some ruling mistakes lately so i figured i'd check with the playground before I do this in a game.

Here's the relevant RAWs

A creature or object brought into being cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. The creature or object must appear within the power’s range, but it does not have to remain within the range.
Effect: Unattended, nonpsionic, nonmagical object of nonliving plant matter, up to 1 cu. ft./level
Oil

A pint of oil burns for 6 hours in a lantern. You can use a flask of oil as a splash weapon. Use the rules for alchemist’s fire, except that it takes a full round action to prepare a flask with a fuse. Once it is thrown, there is a 50% chance of the flask igniting successfully.

You can pour a pint of oil on the ground to cover an area 5 feet square, provided that the surface is smooth. If lit, the oil burns for 2 rounds and deals 1d3 points of fire damage to each creature in the area.

There are 59 pints in a cubic feet. 1 pint of oil covers 5ft square. So 1 cubic feet of oil will cover 59 squares.

So can I do this?
Round1: Manifest Linked Power Minor Creation
Round2: Minor Creation creates a cubic feet of oil that immediately starts spreading everywhere. I ignite it with a torch or something. Everyone takes 1d3 damage
Round3: Everyone takes 1d3 damage.

Just to be clear, I'm either creating a cube of pure oil that spreads everywhere upon creation, or I'm creating a barrel of oil with virtually no bottom so the oil spreads everywhere.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

The line "in an open space" might give you some trouble; it could be interpreted as 'not in a square that's occupied by a creature'.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The range on psionic minor creation is 0 ft., so I don't think you could create anything outside your own square. I would, however, allow you to spread the oil across several squares (not 59, but a handful to a dozen, depending on the floor surface and slope) and ignite it with a torch.

[RoboEmperor]

The range on psionic minor creation is 0 ft., so I don't think you could create anything outside your own square. I would, however, allow you to spread the oil across several squares (not 59, but a handful to a dozen, depending on the floor surface and slope) and ignite it with a torch.

Yeah I missed the 0ft. Glad you caught that. Found this RAW too


A power’s range indicates how far from you it can reach, as defined in the Range entry of the power description. A power’s range is the maximum distance from you that the power’s effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the power’s point of origin. If any portion of the area would extend beyond the range, that area is wasted. Standard ranges include the following.

So yeah it's gonna have to be either a cube of oil or a barrel of oil with massive holes at the bottom so the oil leaks out and spreads everywhere. Since you choose the area of the Linked Power round 1 I'm gonna have to Bomberman this.


The line "in an open space" might give you some trouble; it could be interpreted as 'not in a square that's occupied by a creature'.

I don't think this is a problem because if you're right minor creation becomes dysfunctional because of the 0ft.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I don't think this is a problem because if you're right minor creation becomes dysfunctional because of the 0ft.

Fair 'nough.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Unfortunately, having a Range of 0' means that the power can't extend past your skin, and creating several cubic feet of oil anything inside you is unlikely to end well.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Unfortunately, having a Range of 0' means that the power can't extend past your skin, and creating several cubic feet of oil anything inside you is unlikely to end well.

Okay hear me out. Summon a flammable gas inside your stomach/lungs (ideally summon a smaller volume than the space available), then burp it out over a match. And hope you don't just explode. Or pass out.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Okay hear me out....Anyone with that name starting off a post saying something like that?

This can't end well.


Summon a flammable gas inside your stomach/lungs (ideally summon a smaller volume than the space available), then burp it out over a match. And hope you don't just explode. Or pass out....Eek.

I think I was right.

[RoboEmperor]

Unfortunately, having a Range of 0' means that the power can't extend past your skin, and creating several cubic feet of oil anything inside you is unlikely to end well.

Doesn't matter. You select the area when you manifest Linked Power so you can select it to completely fill your insides, walk away, and the oil will appear where you initially manifested the power.

And it doesn't matter because 0ft means your square not literally 0ft.

[Ashtagon]

To me the issue is that "a pint of oil covers a square area of 5x5 feet" isn't strictly a property of just the oil, but also of the ground surface. Is the ground particularly rocky and uneven, with plenty of spaces for the oil to "pool"? You can probably reduce the area covered substantially. Is the ground porous (sand, soil, or even some dirt tracks that aren't completely baked hard)? Expect oily mud, not much harder to traverse than regular mud; ditto if the ground is actual mud.

Bear in mind, 1 (US liquid) pint over a 5x5 foot square equates to a depth of 0.2 millimetres (0.244mm for an imperial pint). In real terms, that's a carefully scraped-over sheen, not just dropping a container and seeing where it lands. Pour some cooking oil over a flat griddle, and its natural meniscus will form a depth of about 2 millimetres until you use a spatula to spread it. Another way to consider it is that the saving throw to avoid slipping on oil represents a combo of balance and stepping on an area that has actual oil coverage; in this interpretation, however, there's no real way a cubic foot f created oil will splash over 50+ 5x5' squares.

[RoboEmperor]

To me the issue is that "a pint of oil covers a square area of 5x5 feet" isn't strictly a property of just the oil, but also of the ground surface. Is the ground particularly rocky and uneven, with plenty of spaces for the oil to "pool"? You can probably reduce the area covered substantially. Is the ground porous (sand, soil, or even some dirt tracks that aren't completely baked hard)? Expect oily mud, not much harder to traverse than regular mud; ditto if the ground is actual mud.

Bear in mind, 1 (US liquid) pint over a 5x5 foot square equates to a depth of 0.2 millimetres (0.244mm for an imperial pint). In real terms, that's a carefully scraped-over sheen, not just dropping a container and seeing where it lands. Pour some cooking oil over a flat griddle, and its natural meniscus will form a depth of about 2 millimetres until you use a spatula to spread it. Another way to consider it is that the saving throw to avoid slipping on oil represents a combo of balance and stepping on an area that has actual oil coverage; in this interpretation, however, there's no real way a cubic foot f created oil will splash over 50+ 5x5' squares.

Yeah, that's not a big deal. The big deal is whether creating a cube of oil or a barrel of oil with holes at the bottom is legal or not. If the DM says the oil puddle is smaller because of terrain, that's fine because that's what it says in the oil description too ("provided that the surface is smooth")

[Ashtagon]

Yeah, that's not a big deal. The big deal is whether creating a cube of oil or a barrel of oil with holes at the bottom is legal or not. If the DM says the oil puddle is smaller because of terrain, that's fine because that's what it says in the oil description too ("provided that the surface is smooth")

Realistically, and assuming a polished marble floor (ie optimal for oil spreadage), if you had a cubic foot of oil and just have it drop at your feet (or at a designated square from a height of 4-5 feet), it'll cover the square and an adjacent square immediately, then start draining away towards wherever the subtle (or not) downhill slope is, spreading to one new square every round until it either reaches a barrier or gutter, or spreads over a total of five† squares (including the initial two). It would take manual effort and spreading tools to spread it over a wider area.

† five assumes imperial pints; six if you assume a standard D&D pint is a US pint.

[Segev]

Yeah, 0 ft. really means "less than 5 ft., within the 5 ft. square you occupy." So manifesting the oil, it appears around you and splooshes everywhere. But you're probably soaked in it, or at least spashed up to your ankles. If you're good with lighting it on fire at that point, go for it.

Honestly, 1d3 area damage isn't a big deal, so if you're using Psionic Minor Creation for that, I certainly don't see it as broken. Seems kosher by the RAW, too.

[RoboEmperor]

Yeah, 0 ft. really means "less than 5 ft., within the 5 ft. square you occupy." So manifesting the oil, it appears around you and splooshes everywhere. But you're probably soaked in it, or at least spashed up to your ankles. If you're good with lighting it on fire at that point, go for it.

Honestly, 1d3 area damage isn't a big deal, so if you're using Psionic Minor Creation for that, I certainly don't see it as broken. Seems kosher by the RAW, too.

It also immobiles creatures too because if they're surrounded by fire, moving into a new burning square is an additional 1d3 damage since each square of burning oil deals 1d3 damage. But I'm mainly interested in this to combat swarms.

[Segev]

It also immobiles creatures too because if they're surrounded by fire, moving into a new burning square is an additional 1d3 damage since each square of burning oil deals 1d3 damage. But I'm mainly interested in this to combat swarms.

How many squares are you managing to cover? I lost track of the math and your effective level and the like. Regardless, it's probably not more than they'd take staying put, unless they can put it out.

Against swarms, it's an average 4 damage per round (range 2-6), which isn't bad, though it isn't great, either. About half what the swarm itself is doing to anybody in its area, as most swarms have 2d6 swarm damage, IIRC.

[RoboEmperor]

How many squares are you managing to cover? I lost track of the math and your effective level and the like. Regardless, it's probably not more than they'd take staying put, unless they can put it out.

It depends on the DM but by strict RAW its 59 squares. Double that if you're level 2. Triple that if you're level 3.


Against swarms, it's an average 4 damage per round (range 2-6), which isn't bad, though it isn't great, either. About half what the swarm itself is doing to anybody in its area, as most swarms have 2d6 swarm damage, IIRC.

It's an average of 6 damage. Swarms occupy 4 squares so 4 x 1.5 = 6. And if they are surrounded by fire they take more damage if they move so they'll probably stay still which means another 6 damage next round.

[Segev]

It depends on the DM but by strict RAW its 59 squares. Double that if you're level 2. Triple that if you're level 3.



It's an average of 6 damage. Swarms occupy 4 squares so 4 x 1.5 = 6. And if they are surrounded by fire they take more damage if they move so they'll probably stay still which means another 6 damage next round.

I don't think hazardous terrain nor AOE effects work that way. You take 1d3 for being in a square that's on fire; you don't take more for being in more squares. Otherwise, large creatures would take 4x damage from fireball. Or more, if you argue that "squares" are really cubes that extend upwards, and they occupy multiple cubes vertically, too.

[RoboEmperor]

I don't think hazardous terrain nor AOE effects work that way. You take 1d3 for being in a square that's on fire; you don't take more for being in more squares. Otherwise, large creatures would take 4x damage from fireball. Or more, if you argue that "squares" are really cubes that extend upwards, and they occupy multiple cubes vertically, too.

This isn't hazardous terrain though.

Consider a flask of oil. You pour it into a square a large creature occupies and ignite it. The large creature takes 1d3 damage.

Now if another creature in the same round pours oil into a different square the large creature occupies and ignites it, does the large creature take an additional 1d3 damage?

All minor creation is doing is pouring a ton of flasks of oil into a ton of squares.

Also consider if oil is disjointed. A large creature starts in a flaming square (1d3 damage), walks out, and then walks into a new flaming square. Should he take 1d3 more damage? If so, then why would the rules change depending on whether these squares are adjacent to each other or not?

[Segev]

This isn't hazardous terrain though.

Consider a flask of oil. You pour it into a square a large creature occupies and ignite it. The large creature takes 1d3 damage.

Now if another creature in the same round pours oil into a different square the large creature occupies and ignites it, does the large creature take an additional 1d3 damage?

All minor creation is doing is pouring a ton of flasks of oil into a ton of squares.

Also consider if oil is disjointed. A large creature starts in a flaming square (1d3 damage), walks out, and then walks into a new flaming square. Should he take 1d3 more damage? If so, then why would the rules change depending on whether these squares are adjacent to each other or not?

I understand the argument. Consider the counter-proposal: A room with oil an inch deep on the floor. Sure, it's an obvious trap, but let's say our foolish party falls for it. They walk in, and are all Medium or Small except for the Fighter, who's enjoying an enlarge person spell. The oil ignites. Does the fighter take 4d3, or 1d3? If we weren't having this conversation, and I hadn't asked the question, I doubt anybody would have blinked or even thought to consider that the fighter might take more damage for being larger.

[RoboEmperor]

I understand the argument. Consider the counter-proposal: A room with oil an inch deep on the floor. Sure, it's an obvious trap, but let's say our foolish party falls for it. They walk in, and are all Medium or Small except for the Fighter, who's enjoying an enlarge person spell. The oil ignites. Does the fighter take 4d3, or 1d3? If we weren't having this conversation, and I hadn't asked the question, I doubt anybody would have blinked or even thought to consider that the fighter might take more damage for being larger.

Instead of a pool of oil, how about a pile of caltrops? Caltrops are explicitly said to deal damage whenever a creature moves into a square with one.

Or how about traps? Four burning hands traps are adjacent to each other. If a large creature lands on all four traps, would he take the damage of only one trap?

It ultimately all comes down to whether each square of burning oil is a separate entity or not. But since we're using the RAW that says each square of burning oil deals 1d3 damage to the creature inside of it, I think I'm right here. It makes sense logically too. A person who has both feet in burning oil is gonna get burned worse than a person who only has one foot in burning oil.

If we were using rules based on Wall of Fire I'd agree with you since each section of the wall doesn't deal damage individually.

[Segev]

Instead of a pool of oil, how about a pile of caltrops? Caltrops are explicitly said to deal damage whenever a creature moves into a square with one.

Or how about traps? Four burning hands traps are adjacent to each other. If a large creature lands on all four traps, would he take the damage of only one trap?

It ultimately all comes down to whether each square of burning oil is a separate entity or not. But since we're using the RAW that says each square of burning oil deals 1d3 damage to the creature inside of it, I think I'm right here. It makes sense logically too. A person who has both feet in burning oil is gonna get burned worse than a person who only has one foot in burning oil.

If we were using rules based on Wall of Fire I'd agree with you since each section of the wall doesn't deal damage individually.

I think this is more like caltrops than multiple separate sources of burning hands. Multiple sources of damage do apply individually. But as you put it, the guy standing with two feet in burning oil isn't going to take more damage just because he's bigger. He'll actually probably take proportionally less (though we don't measure things that way in D&D, usually).

Hm, though I do see your meaning on "each square they enter" being problematic when they enter 2-3 squares with each five foot movement. I think this actually qualifies as a dysfunction.