Too many skill proficiencies! :O

[Bjarkmundur]

I've been working on my Housruled skill list for the last couple of weeks. I feel like what I've got is a more intuitive, more fluent alternative to the 5e skill system. The idea is to try to pair and combine skills that normally fit a similar source (he who steals, also lies), and emphasizes how ability scores affect your skill usage. Knowing something from extensive experience (wis) is different than knowing something from studying (int), for example.

This had a pretty annoying side effect.

Skills how now gone from 18 skills down to 9, making each skill proficiency twice as strong. Some characters can quite easily gain proficiency in EVERY SINGLE SKILL.
This needs to be addressed.

How would you suggest I address this problem?

Since I'm cutting the number of skill in half, I thought about just saying "you have half as many skills", but so many classes and features grant an odd number of skills, which makes this pretty impossible

[GreyBlack]

Outlaw multiclassing.

No, seriously. Multiclassing is a variant rule as is. If the players can't get skill proficiencies from multiclassing, then it reduces the potential power of those multiclasses.

If you're not comfortable with that, rule that you don't get skill proficiencies from multiclassing.

Failing _all_ of that... cut the number of skill proficiencies characters get access to. Characters get 1 skill proficiency from their class and 1 proficiency from their background. Particularly skill oriented characters, such as Ranger, Bard, and Rogue, get 2 skills. This would mean that players are only proficient in 2-3 skills at 1st level, and then either have to multiclass a huge number of times or take a huge number of feats to gain access to more skills.

[Galithar]

Just cut them in half and round up.

If I would have gotten 5 skills now I get 3. It tips things slightly in favor of the player, but it's better then pissing off the low skills player that only gets 1 skill now :P (if you were too round down instead of up)

[Bjarkmundur]

@GreyBlack
Already did outlaw multiclassing.
I could make a table/document with every feature that would give skill or expertise, and adjust the numbers. Could you help me with that over a shared google document?

@Galithar
That might work. Does anyone see any immediate loopholes?

Edit: I simply clarified as follows:


Features that give skill proficiencies can be applied to any skill of your choice. Skills have been condensed from 18 total skills down to 9. Because of this, some adjustments have to be made to the number of skill proficiencies you acquire. To start with, count up all the skill proficiencies you gain from your class, race and background. Once you’ve done so, cut the number in half (rounded up). This also applies on later levels, when you gain specific class features and features that would give you expertise.

[GreyBlack]

@GreyBlack
Already did outlaw multiclassing.
I could make a table/document with every feature that would give skill or expertise, and adjust the numbers. Could you help me with that over a shared google document?

@Galithar
That might work. Does anyone see any immediate loopholes?

Edit: I simply clarified as follows:

Sure you can share it. Galithar's recommendation is very similar to my first recommendation, too, so that's something to consider. If you have half as many skills, players should start with half as many skills. Otherwise, it's a bit like keeping the skills the same as in base 5e but then giving everyone double the proficiencies for everything.

So, as an example. Some basic math.

In base D&D, there are 18 skills, and players baseline have access to 5. So that would be 5/18. Now, if you decrease the number of skills, that ratio drops to 5/9, which is the same as 10/18. That's a huge number of skills for players to get. Then, if they take something like the Skilled feat, instead of getting 3 skills (3/18), they get an effective 6 skills (3/9 = 6/18). Add that on to the base of 10 skills they get (5/9=10/18) and players have an effective 16/18 skills at first level.

Soooooooo... the TL;DR here is you're gonna have to divide it all in half if you haven't already.

[Naanomi]

I mean... it isn’t super hard to be proficient in all skills right now if you want to be... V Human (Skilled) Scout Rogue 3/Lore Bard 3/Knowledge Cleric 1

If you go the ‘half skills, round up’ and cut out multiclassing; you could still get what... V Human Lore Bard with Skilled as your feat... 8 proficiencies at level 3? One more of you then get Prodigy? Not quite all, but pretty darn close. Of course, not all that useful with Jack of All Trades already in place

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

Honestly, I'd just assign them skills based on their class. Each class gets the skills from that class pool that I created. Then they get to select one skill from outside of that pool for their background.

Multiclassing won't give them skills, unless they multiclass into Thief, Bard, or Ranger, in which case they get to select one skill from that class pool.

[Wildarm]

A different suggestion - Keep the skill proficiency list the same but give each character a set of class skills based based on their primary or secondary stat. You get to choose a 2nd stat related to your background. Races that get a skill proficiency get a 3rd choice. Multi-classing gives the appropriate class skill for Rogue/Ranger/Bard. Expertise which previously gave you 2 skills now gives it in a single stat group.

The good thing is you don't have weird interactions where a character is having to make a build choice between a niche skill(History) and something you pretty much always want(Arcana). People will have more proficiency/expertise but I think the result will be more rounded characters.

Examples:

Half Orc barbarian - Proficient in 2 stats - Likely Str/Wis
Halfling Cleric - Proficient in 2 stats - Int/Wis(Clerical Study) or maybe Dex/Wis(Nimble Cleric)
V Human Rogue - Proficient is 3 stats - Dex/Wis/Cha - Lots of skills there but all within the rogue's wheelhouse. Chooses expertise in Dex and later Wisdom.
Half Elf Rogue/Bard - Proficient in 4 stats - Int/Wis/Dex/Cha - The skill monkey of the group - Eventually an expert in all.

It's OK if players want to build a character who is proficient at most core tasks they want to do. That is exactly why PCs are heros. It makes skill checks much more intuitive since you can change the key stat for a skill check as DM. It is more appropriate for a character trying to do something keying off their characters strong points. Example would be animal handling - Could be wisdom based on reading emotions and needs of a beast. Could also be intelligence to try and know the best way to tame something. Could also be strength in that you're using athletics and raw strength to bend a creature to your will. It's all how the player describes what they are trying to do and if they can add their relative stat proficiency. No need to be cut and dry about it. Encourage players to find creative solutions to things the draws upon their characters core abilities.

[Tallytrev813]

I meeeeeean, my solution would be to not cut the skill list lol.

He who steals is NOT always good at lying. Take Aladin, for example. Great thief - Nice guy who stinks at lying, princess Jasmine saw straight through him half the time. May not be the best example, but you get my point.

If you really want to cut the skill list, then just cut the # of skill proficiencies people get.

[Kyutaru]

If you're already down to 9 skills when there's only 6 ability scores, just get rid of skills. You're not using them. They're a bloated waste of space that you can be doing ability checks for with whatever proficiency modifiers per class/race/gender/age/sexualorientation you want.

I like condensing skill lists when certain skills are weak and seldom used. But that's up to the DM. He can easily add fourteen more skills pertaining to Engineering, Law, Surgery, Carpentering, Erotic Moon Dancing, Game of Thrones Lore, whatever and still make it work in his particular campaign if he actively uses them.

AD&D did this, there must have been a hundred skill proficiencies. 3rd edition cut down the list, 5e cut it down even more, now you're cutting it in half. At some point we have to just ditch the skill system because no one wants it.

[Nagog]

I guess we would need to see the revised list to see what particular skills would become overpowered. For example, if you've combined Sleight of Hand, deception, and performance, Bards would have all their useful stuff all in one handy check, and then some on top with sleight of hand. Alternately, combining Athletics and Acrobatics shouldn't change too much as most of the applications for Athletics are similar to acrobatics (the obvious difference being Str vs Dex)

Being a transfer from Pathfinder to D&D 5e, this change feels somewhat unnecessary, Pathfinder has 36 skills, not including the "fill in the blank" skills like Craft, Perform, and Profession, which are formatted similarly to tool proficiency. In any case, I feel seeing what skills are combined where would be more beneficial to the community here.

[Naanomi]

A very pruned skill list... which I wouldn’t like but can see the elegance of... would be something like...

~Physicality (Athletics, Acrobatics, some of Intimidation)
~Sneakiness (Stealth, most of Sleight of Hand, some of Deception, ?Thieves’ Tools?)
~Lore (History, Religion, Arcana, some of Nature, Some of Investigation)
~Awareness (Perception, Insight, most of Investigation, some of Survival)
~Wildcraft (Animal Handling, most of Survival, most of Nature)
~Communication (Persuasion, some of Performance, most of Deception, most of Intimidation)

Possibly spin out Deception, Sleight of Hand, Disguise Tools, and Forgery into its own thing (Duplicity?)

And I’d keep Tools skills around, expanding them to include some pieces of Performance (singing, etc)

[Nagog]

If you're already down to 9 skills when there's only 6 ability scores, just get rid of skills. You're not using them. They're a bloated waste of space that you can be doing ability checks for with whatever proficiency modifiers per class/race/gender/age/sexualorientation you want.

I like condensing skill lists when certain skills are weak and seldom used. But that's up to the DM. He can easily add fourteen more skills pertaining to Engineering, Law, Surgery, Carpentering, Erotic Moon Dancing, Game of Thrones Lore, whatever and still make it work in his particular campaign if he actively uses them.

AD&D did this, there must have been a hundred skill proficiencies. 3rd edition cut down the list, 5e cut it down even more, now you're cutting it in half. At some point we have to just ditch the skill system because no one wants it.

I rather enjoy skill lists......

[Bjarkmundur]

If you're already down to 9 skills when there are only 6 ability scores, just get rid of skills. You're not using them. They're a bloated waste of space that you can be doing ability checks for with whatever proficiency modifiers per class/race/gender/age/sexual orientation you want.

I like condensing skill lists when certain skills are weak and seldom used. But that's up to the DM. He can easily add fourteen more skills pertaining to Engineering, Law, Surgery, Carpentering, Erotic Moon Dancing, Game of Thrones Lore, whatever and still make it work in his particular campaign if he actively uses them.

AD&D did this, there must have been a hundred skill proficiencies. 3rd edition cut down the list, 5e cut it down, even more, now you're cutting it in half. At some point, we have to just ditch the skill system because no one wants it.

It's more of an immersion and player's aid kind of thing. Having specific skills adds to the narrative, and helps to visualize a character based on the things he/she is good at.
It's a player's aid since it pushes players to work more with the skillset of his character and help him to see what kind of solutions he might have to solve a specific problem.

This is my experience with skills. So many times when I pose a problem or a question to my player characters, they look down at their character sheets. This is a bad thing, since it means they are reliant on mechanics, but it's a good thing, since the character sheet might have hints on how to deal with the situation at hand. This is how I use skills, as subtle hints to players regarding their character's abilities. I remember explaining it to one of my players. "Look at your character sheet. You might want to bash the door in, but there you see you have thieves' tools. You're character was a burgler, so she is much more likely to try to undo the hinges, or pick the lock, than running at it and hope for the best". Once all players I ever play with have perfect fantasy problem solving skills, and know every single way a fanasy hero might solve a problem, I'll stop using skills. Until then, I'll keep swapping and renaming skills to see what gives the most entertaining narrative. It's a little brain-washy. I mean, if I suddenly add a "use grappling hook" skill, I know for a fact most my players will start looking for walls to climb.

I've talked about it on a thread before that I'll most likely evolve away from skills altogether, but I'm not ready to say goodbye just yet.

[Kyutaru]

No need to say goodbye then. I just don't see the point in having SO FEW SKILLS. If you want a skill system, go big or go home. Otherwise they're pointless modifiers to ability checks. May as well just say Rogues have +3 on all Dexterity checks.

[Bjarkmundur]

No need to say goodbye then. I just don't see the point in having SO FEW SKILLS. If you want a skill system, go big or go home. Otherwise they're pointless modifiers to ability checks. May as well just say Rogues have +3 on all Dexterity checks.

I'm actually with you on that one. Just because I managed to fit all the 5e skills into 9 new ones, doesn't mean I can't add some new ones to keep things interesting.

What non-5e skills are your favourite, from different TTRPGs?

[VitiumHK]

Have you tried increasing the DC of skill checks or make some skill checks a competition (for example an NPC's wisdom check with advantage vs PC's persuasion check with disadvantage) while using disadvantage/advantage.

[Kyutaru]

I'm actually with you on that one. Just because I managed to fit all the 5e skills into 9 new ones, doesn't mean I can't add some new ones to keep things interesting.

What non-5e skills are your favourite, from different TTRPGs?

Crafting skills are the major one. Like with Divinity Original Sin, they force you to either have non-combat characters specialized in it or waste some of your party's own skill points to pick up specific areas. Having the Fighter devote one of his skill selections to Blacksmithing drastically cuts down on his social options but gains him the ability to forge weapons. It's a trade-off many players make. Caveat is the DM needs to want the players to have the ability to make their own items. Everything from Elder Scrolls Online to World of Warcraft has them too. If you want to keep the skill list small you can have a single Craft skill like 3.5 had and just have various tradecrafts as subskill selections under it (similar to Knowledge, Profession, and History checks). Under the Profession hat you can even include Mining and other gathering skills to obtain their own materials (a bit boring for adventurers but some people love it).

Engineering. Where dwarves once had all kinds of stone sense abilities and adventurers could skill specialize in construction, these traits have disappeared from 5e. Stonecunning isn't even remotely similar to Stonemasonry from 2nd edition. But there's also architecture, complex machinery, the laws of physics, like why does every puzzle have to revolve around levers and pulleys? How do you construct a ballista without hiring an NPC who already knows how to do it? At the very least I'd have a generic Science skill that covers everything from astronomy to chemistry. Heck you can even have an Academics skill that covers the humanities like art and other non-practical skills. Or an Education skill that covers them all. I only mention Engineering specifically because this is Medieval culture rather than Renaissance culture. We're concerned with building things, not higher learning.

Leadership. This used to be an actual SKILL in 2e. Then 3e made it a FEAT. Now 5e makes it DM fiat. Granted, you don't necessarily need a skill that summons cohorts but it's still useful for commanding troops or making tactical battle plans. I always used it as the one-stop-shop War skill, including strategy, tactics, logistics, supply chaining, etc. For campaigns where war matters or your party is involved with NPCs during battle, leadership allowing direct control over their actions on successful checks or preventing their morale from breaking is pretty good. Remember morale? Nah, of course not, that's gone the way of the dodo too.

Riding. Why is everyone automatically able to drive a horse well? Okay bad example, everyone can basically ride a horse. But what about controlling a griffin in midair? Or being able to dominate an owlbear into accepting you as his rider? Breaking a mount, and which mounts you may use, depends on your ability to ride. This skill was seldom used in DUNGEONS and Dragons but if you plan on having mounted combat then it's essential. It can even be extended to other modes of transportation. White Wolf games have a Driving skill that lets you become either a student learner or an underground racer.

Etiquette. Having many other names such as bureaucracy, streetwise, underworld, politics, and nobility this skill represents the character's ability to not anger someone unintentionally with their player-caused thoughtless actions and words. It grants a deeper understanding of how the world works without needing to engage in trial and error. It can even be used as a saving throw. You just did something horrible -- roll Etiquette to undo. It never happened. Have you ever tried talking to a god before? They get angry very easily. There goes your entire family. Cousins and grandparents included.

Haggling. This is a much debated Mercantile skill because players tend to feel like it's either necessary or completely irrelevant. The DM is going to give you as much treasure as he thinks you deserve anyway. But some like the town mini-game and rolling to get better prices on their buys and sells makes them feel like they're using their talents effectively. It's worth the skill point most of the time to earn a few extra gold pieces and spend a little more on consumables than you ordinarily would. I've also seen RPGs do a Wealth skill instead where you can afford pretty much anything up to your skill level with a roll for rarer things.

Firearms. Obviously only applicable in games that actually use these, having an understanding of Firearms is essential to their use. The same with Lightsabers, Explosives, Computers, or anything else high tech. Heck, call it Future Tech if you want it in an old setting. The point of the skill check is to determine whether or not the weapon backfires, jams, explodes, misfires, or even as a qualifier for how complex of a weapon you can actually use. These are risky weapons to use in combat full of RNG but a skilled user can avoid their pitfalls. Sort of like the next upgrade from crossbows except even more penalties associated with their use. Unless you're a specialist, that is.

Use the Force, Luke. I'm not even kidding. Star Wars RPG had Force Powers as skills. You can have literal magical abilities as a SKILL check. Screw mages, your character doesn't need spell slots to tune into his natural latent abilities. They don't always work and maybe have varying degrees of success but they're always there. Want to levitate something from across the room? Okay, it's about 10 pounds so roll your best and hope you can focus hard enough to cover the distance. This has a HUGE range of applications straight to having Superman's eye lasers as an at-will ability. Only catch is you need to take it once for every new power. Pikachu learned Thunderbolt! But he has too many skills and forgot Athletics.

Psionics. Why is this a skill, you ask? Because it's also your defense stat. Not only does it operate similar to Force powers in determining what you can actually do with it but it also protects you from psionic assault from other users. Pretty cool huh? One catch: the more talented you are in this area, the more astral denizens and daemons are attempting to burrow into your brain. Maybe becoming a walking outsider magnet isn't such a hot idea. But if you know the risks and are willing to take them, feel free to melt brains with your mind.

Awareness. Previously a skill, made into a feat, relegated to non-existence, this skill still offers one major use that many players might find attractive: extra initiative. This basically turns your initiative check into a TRAINED skill check which stacks with Improved Initiative and other boosts. A skill choice for going first most of the time? Totally a viable choice. Not all skills need to be non-combat as the past few selections showcase. If someone wants to avoid the mini-games and focus on hitting things then this is how they do that.



Anyway, those are just a few off the top of my head.

[Bjarkmundur]

Wow, Kyutaru, thanks! That's awesome!

Allowing arcana to do minor stuff is awesome.
Initiative and Etiquette are both amazing.

I have a crafting system, I'm ready to bust it out as soon as a player asks for it ^^

Edit: Continuing the discussion here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?588160-Create-your-own-skills!)