Lady of Pain - Warlock Patron?

[nickl_2000]

I was just listening to an episode of DragonTalk where Chris Perkins talked about Sigil and the Lady of Pain. Since she isn't a god per-se, could she be an interested Warlock Patron, or do I need to learn more lore and there is no way she would do that for someone?

[SaintRidley]

She wouldn't be interested. If you were able to attract her interest, you'd be Mazed immediately.

[nickl_2000]

She wouldn't be interested. If you were able to attract her interest, you'd be Mazed immediately.

My impression is that she works within Sigil solely. You don't think she would activate someones power knowing in the future that their actions in a different realm could avert something that would destroy a realm or philosophy somewhere in the planes?

[jaappleton]

The Lady of Pain is very enigmatic, and immensely... I mean IMMENSELY... powerful.

She also refuses to be worshiped or revered. Those who attempt to are met with a gruesome fate.

[SaintRidley]

My impression is that she works within Sigal solely. You don't think she would activate someones power knowing in the future that their actions in a different realm could avert something that would destroy a realm or philosophy somewhere in the planes?

No. Not in the slightest.

[nickl_2000]

No. Not in the slightest.

Fair enough then. She seemed like an interesting possibility for a patron, but obviously it would go against standard lore to make her that way.

Thanks!

[Man_Over_Game]

Here's the full scoop:

Sigil used to be a city full of gods, as anyone could travel through it from anywhere. One of the Lady's servants (a special race that I think she created to work as Sigil's janitors) ended up worshipping one of the traveling gods and losing its bond with the Lady. Out of spite (or to send a message), the Lady butchered the god, and put a indefinite ban on gods in her domain. In the Planescape universe, belief has power, and so worshipping her could accidentally make her a god. As a result, she will Maze anyone who happens to even THINK about considering her a god. Now everyone in Sigil treats her as a bad omen, something you don't talk about.

The Nameless One, in Torment, can join a cult about someone who's investigating the Lady, but manages to stay safe against her gaze. Leaving the area after joining the cult will result in a short cutscene with her following behind you, and the next thing you see is the Maze.

---------------

So as long as it's a partnership, or striving towards a goal that is not her, I think she'd be fine with it. A contract, stating exactly what each others goals and benefits are to one another, would be enough for her to have supporters without having worshippers.

Another way of working with her would be through an Oath. Not to her, but to the things that she supports (which is stability above all else). In doing so, you'd consider each other equals towards the same goal, rather than one being a superior.

[Unoriginal]

I was just listening to an episode of DragonTalk where Chris Perkins talked about sigal and the Lady of Pain. Since she isn't a god per-se, could she be an interested Warlock Patron, or do I need to learn more lore and there is no way she would do that for someone?

There is no way she would do that for someone. Not unless there was an emergency that was going to destroy Sigil and it was the only solution at her disposal. Which given the kind of being we're talking about, isn't going to happen.


The Lady of Pain actively destroys those who try to learn more about her, trying to establish contact is about as dangerous.

Now a very suicidal Warlock-wannabe could try to *steal* power from her, like some do for other cosmic beings. But that'd end up messily.

[Man_Over_Game]

Now a very suicidal Warlock-wannabe could try to *steal* power from her, like some do for other cosmic beings. But that'd end up messily.

Maybe, but can the Lady influence anything out of Sigil? I don't think she can, but I could be wrong.

That does give me a good idea, though. Perhaps the reason she has warlocks is so that she can manipulate things outside of Sigil (like people who are stealing her powers or making her into a religion). To her, power is a currency, and she's simply hiring mercenaries. Sigil IS the City of Doors. If someone is spreading information she doesn't want outside of her city, it'll find its way back and cause problems. It'd be handy to have solution to those kinds of problems.

[nickl_2000]

Maybe, but can the Lady influence anything out of Sigil? I don't think she can, but I could be wrong.

That does give me a good idea, though. Perhaps the reason she has warlocks is so that she can manipulate things outside of Sigil (like people who are stealing her powers or making her into a religion). To her, power is a currency, and she's simply hiring mercenaries.

This is almost exactly something I was asking about. She sees something coming in the future that will destroy or destabilize Sigil and wants to stop it. However, it is happening in the Forgotten Realms where she has no real power. She awakens a warlock with the express intent that the warlock take care of that problem for her. If he doesn't, well he better not go back to Sigil else he mazed.

[Unoriginal]

Maybe, but can the Lady influence anything out of Sigil? I don't think she can, but I could be wrong.

She can make so a portal just happens to open next time you go through a doorway, IIRC.

Otherwise she can just send regular hitpeople.



That does give me a good idea, though. Perhaps the reason she has warlocks is so that she can manipulate things outside of Sigil (like people who are stealing her powers or making her into a religion). To her, power is a currency, and she's simply hiring mercenaries. Sigil IS the City of Doors. If someone is spreading information she doesn't want outside of her city, it'll find its way back and cause problems. It'd be handy to have solution to those kinds of problems.

She would get other type of people to do that. Like actual mercenaries. Warlocks are too much of a risk and an expense to make the benefits worth it.


This is almost exactly something I was asking about. She sees something coming in the future that will destroy or destabilize Sigil and wants to stop it. However, it is happening in the Forgotten Realms where she has no real power. She awakens a warlock with the express intent that the warlock take care of that problem for her. If he doesn't, well he better not go back to Sigil else he mazed.

Too much of a liability, and not direct enough.

She might give a Boon to someone, if she can take it back, but a Warlock's Pact is just too antithetical to her modus operandi.



Then again, it's your storylines. Do as you wish.

[Man_Over_Game]

This is almost exactly something I was asking about. She sees something coming in the future that will destroy or destabilize Sigil and wants to stop it. However, it is happening in the Forgotten Realms where she has no real power. She awakens a warlock with the express intent that the warlock take care of that problem for her. If he doesn't, well he better not go back to Sigil else he mazed.

Something like a Lady of Pain Cult? Maybe they have some relic of Sigil that allows their beliefs to grant shape to things, like creating a duplicate Lady of Pain. Having a god like that in your pocket is pretty damn threatening to the universal eco-system, and the only reason we believe the Lady of Pain has any limits is because she banned herself from influencing anything outside of Sigil. What would happen if that weren't true? The Lady is capable of murdering a god in seconds....so probably nothing good.

It'd be a pretty interesting plot. The Warlock in question is actually being treated by the cult as their Prophet, as he works directly from the True Lady herself. In a way, his actions (and her attempt at intervention) actually make things worse as the cult's religious passages about being assaulted by their prophet continue to be true.

[Naanomi]

Maybe if you are a Dabus, heck maybe they all are

[hamlet]

She wouldn't be interested. If you were able to attract her interest, you'd be Mazed immediately.

If you were lucky.

The Lady does NOT like folks to worship her. Merely to follow the rules of her law within Sigil, the first of which is "Don't worship the Lady of Pain!"

[Vogie]

However, a Warlock that THINKS their patron is the Lady of Pain... that you can work with

[Man_Over_Game]

However, a Warlock that THINKS their patron is the Lady of Pain... that you can work with

Entity wants to get back at the Lady of Pain. Entity creates a bunch of worshippers, then disguises himself AS the Lady of Pain to them.

I could just imagine her rubbing her (bladed) temples in frustration at that one.

[Naanomi]

Of course not all warlocks worship their patrons; some instead study or connect with them in other ways... I can conceive someone doing so (maybe a Hexblade to took one of the smaller blades out of Aoskar’s corpse in the Astral); but I’d never *ever* go to Sigil then; and probably be pretty nervous about walking through doors and gates in general

[Segev]

It would be highly unusual to unique. She probably most closely maps in theme to a Fiend, replacing fire references with references to shadows and blades. The Lady of Pain is taboo incarnate. Anybody who recognized her touch upon you would be...discomfitted.

It doesn't happen, but PCs are exceptions, so if you want to, discuss it with your DM and do some research on her. Come up with a cool reason for it, and remember that Warlocks aren't necessarily their Patrons' "chosen ones." They can also somehow have accidentally tapped the powers of the Patron. Probably want to stay OUT of Sigil, lest she find you.

[Man_Over_Game]

Plot twist: The Warlock is a Minotaur that the Lady can't keep Mazed.

Per the Maze spell: "A creature you can see is banished to a labyrinth-shaped demiplane. It can use its action to make a DC 20 Intelligence check, escaping on a success. A minotaur or goristro demon automatically succeeds. "

[Brookshw]

Maybe, but can the Lady influence anything out of Sigil? I don't think she can, but I could be wrong.


Can? Yes. In Die Vecna Die she rewrites the rules of the Multiverse. Not the rules of Sigil, the rules of the Multiverse. For all we know, she could do anything she wanted, anywhere.
Incidentally, this also gave a nice excuse for bridging 2e to 3e

Not that it matters, because unless you're messing with things in Sigil then the Lady doesn't care. Period.

To the OP, canon-wise this is a non-starter in all shapes and sizes. She's just a set piece to maintain the neutrality of Sigil and not something PCs should ever really be interacting with. What you want to do in a particular game (and can convince your DM of) is up to you.


Per the Maze spell: "A creature you can see is banished to a labyrinth-shaped demiplane. It can use its action to make a DC 20 Intelligence check, escaping on a success. A minotaur or goristro demon automatically succeeds. "

The Lady's mazes aren't "Maze" the spell. There's an adventure in Well of Worlds that deals with one, as well as other sources I don't recall offhand.

[Man_Over_Game]

Can? Yes. In Die Vecna Die she rewrites the rules of the Multiverse. Not the rules of Sigil, the rules of the Multiverse. For all we know, she could do anything she wanted, anywhere.
Incidentally, this also gave a nice excuse for bridging 2e to 3e

Not that it matters, because unless you're messing with things in Sigil then the Lady doesn't care. Period.

To the OP, canon-wise this is a non-starter in all shapes and sizes. She's just a set piece to maintain the neutrality of Sigil and not something PCs should ever really be interacting with. What you want to do in a particular game (and can convince your DM of) is up to you.

Ah, so she's something similar to Lolth for the Drow. She's not there to be relevant to player plots, she's there to make sure that the culture (Drow, Sigil) stays consistent.

With Lolth in charge, Drow will always be cruel. With the Lady in charge, Sigil will always stay neutral. Anything more than that doesn't matter.


The Lady's mazes aren't "Maze" the spell. There's an adventure in Well of Worlds that deals with one, as well as other sources I don't recall offhand.

True, but minotaurs have an inherent bonus to deal with any kind of mazes. It's kind of a trope in DnD.

[Unoriginal]

Of course not all warlocks worship their patrons; some instead study or connect with them in other ways... I can conceive someone doing so (maybe a Hexblade to took one of the smaller blades out of Aoskar’s corpse in the Astral); but I’d never *ever* go to Sigil then; and probably be pretty nervous about walking through doors and gates in general

As I said earlier, it'd be possible, but about as welcome as trying to worship her. So I'd say that the Warlock wouldn't stay nervous for long (as corpses aren't very nervous).


Plot twist: The Warlock is a Minotaur that the Lady can't keep Mazed.

Per the Maze spell: "A creature you can see is banished to a labyrinth-shaped demiplane. It can use its action to make a DC 20 Intelligence check, escaping on a success. A minotaur or goristro demon automatically succeeds. "

The Lady of Pain does not use the Maze spell. And Mazing isn't her only tool, she can also just turn people into dead meaty paste.


Also, trying to play the smart donkey with that kind of entity never ends well.

In one of his Counter Monkey videos, Spoony told a story about how a Minotaur PC in a group he was DMing for wanted to get Mazed to use his racial capacity to escape.

The Lady of Pain did send him to a Maze. He appeared in a straight corridor. Millions of kilometers long.


That is only of the many, many ways she could **** over people who try that kind of loophole exploitation.

[nickl_2000]

The Lady of Pain does not use the Maze spell. And Mazing isn't her only tool, she can also just turn people into dead meaty paste.


Also, trying to play the smart donkey with that kind of entity never ends well.

In one of his Counter Monkey videos, Spoony told a story about how a Minotaur PC in a group he was DMing for wanted to get Mazed to use his racial capacity to escape.

The Lady of Pain did send him to a Maze. He appeared in a straight corridor. Millions of kilometers long.


That is only of the many, many ways she could **** over people who try that kind of loophole exploitation.

I believe that Chris Perkins on Dragontalk spoke about her liking to turn people inside out when they really ticked her off.



And thank you everyone for the Lore. I find it fascinating.

[LibraryOgre]

Where do you think the Dabus come from? :smallbiggrin:

[Unoriginal]

I believe that Chris Perkins on Dragontalk spoke about her liking to turn people inside out when they really ticked her off.

Well, she's not called the Lady of Pain for nothing.

[Naanomi]

As I said earlier, it'd be possible, but about as welcome as trying to worship her. So I'd say that the Warlock wouldn't stay nervous for long (as corpses aren't very nervous).
Probably, but you never know for sure... she is nothing if not inscrutable and (from an outside perspective) remarkably inconsistent... allow a epic level psionic to have a time traveling adventure one week without a word; shredding a minor Slaad lord to paste the moment he steps through a portal the next...


Ah, so she's something similar to Lolth for the Drow. She's not there to be relevant to player plots, she's there to make sure that the culture (Drow, Sigil) stays consistent.
And to be a setting piece showing ‘no matter how big and bad you get, there are always going to be mysteries beyond your understanding; and beings that can end you without any effort’ that were important to vibe of the cosmic scale of Planescape

[Dr. Cliché]

IIRC people who so much as talk to the Lady of Pain end up with every organ and limb impaled on a different rooftop.

Trying to worship her results in a much worse death.

[Brookshw]

Ah, so she's something similar to Lolth for the Drow. She's not there to be relevant to player plots, she's there to make sure that the culture (Drow, Sigil) stays consistent.

With Lolth in charge, Drow will always be cruel. With the Lady in charge, Sigil will always stay neutral. Anything more than that doesn't matter. Bingo. She's backdrop. The closest I can recall to players ever actively interacting with her is in Faction War where they deal with some of the immediate....after affects....of her actions, kinda. Great module, I highly recommend it.




True, but minotaurs have an inherent bonus to deal with any kind of mazes. It's kind of a trope in DnD. Until that blasted Theseus gets involved!!!

Back on topic, the exits to the Maze(s) aren't so much physical exits as much as....well....portals, with keys designed to elude the imprisoned. In the WoW module I mentioned earlier the maze curls back on itself so no matter where you go you end up back where you start (eventually I guess, I mean, you could wander for a while before getting back to "start"). The exit was a dish that had to be carried to a particular archway to open a portal out.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I'd recommend going back and looking at the old afroakuma threads about planar lore if you're interested in this kind of thing. Basically the short answer is no; the longer answer is hell no.

[Segev]

In a planescape game, my paladin rescued somebody from being run over by the Lady's Shadow as she was passing by. Unfortunately, he didn't entirely escape it, himself. It didn't hurt, not until he looked back to see, but his leg had fallen under her shadow, and every bit of flesh was cut cleanly off at that point, leaving only pristine bone behind. He's very lucky she didn't just kill him outright. Fortunately, though gods aren't allowed in Sigil, their clerics are, so paying for a regeneration was possible.

[Unoriginal]

Until that blasted Theseus gets involved!!!


Eh, he's been too busy replacing the parts of his boat little by little and then rebuilding another boat with the parts a bit further. Unless he just moved the first boat a bit further piece by piece and built a different one where the first stood.

[Naanomi]

Trying to worship her results in a much worse death.
I’m not sure she always cares actually... people definitely revere her and supplicate to her in ways that are ‘worship-like’ without her intentionally responding

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/0/00/Ladyofpainbutbetter.png/revision/latest?cb=20180814010713

[Segev]

I’m not sure she always cares actually... people definitely revere her and supplicate to her in ways that are ‘worship-like’ without her intentionally responding

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/0/00/Ladyofpainbutbetter.png/revision/latest?cb=20180814010713

While a lovely picture, I actually think it doesn't reflect anything I've heard of happening in any writings about Sigil. People clear the streets when warning comes that the Lady is approaching, and try to stay out of her way. Bowing and scraping is a great way to get yourself killed or Mazed.

[Naanomi]

While a lovely picture, I actually think it doesn't reflect anything I've heard of happening in any writings about Sigil. People clear the streets when warning comes that the Lady is approaching, and try to stay out of her way. Bowing and scraping is a great way to get yourself killed or Mazed.
That picture is from an official 2e Planescape product; so I wouldn’t call it completely irrelevant. The Lady doesn’t do anything consistently, and rarely acts directly at all... more than one berk has gone to the deadbook thinking he’s got The Lady figured

And do note in her shadow, things are not exactly going well for those guys anyways

[Brookshw]

And do note in her shadow, things are not exactly going well for those guys anyways

So by "without her intentionally responding", you meant her worshipers die anyway? :smalltongue:

[CIDE]

I don't think having something/someone as a patron requires the person to worship said entity nor does it equate. You CAN worship your patron if the relationship requires it or if it's just something the character does. I'm not trying to suggest that the LoP would ever impart some power into a servant, BUT, she does employ servants. I just don't think it's that impractical to have the LoP as a patron.

If I'm wrong? Well, I'd just be a-mazed.

[Naanomi]

So by "without her intentionally responding", you meant her worshipers die anyway? :smalltongue:
I mean that she doesn’t like... do anything; she doesn’t turn to them, look at them, change her path... but being that close to her (or touching her shadow at all) is pretty deadly even without action on her part

[Unoriginal]

I don't think having something/someone as a patron requires the person to worship said entity nor does it equate. You CAN worship your patron if the relationship requires it or if it's just something the character does. I'm not trying to suggest that the LoP would ever impart some power into a servant, BUT, she does employ servants. I just don't think it's that impractical to have the LoP as a patron.

If I'm wrong? Well, I'd just be a-mazed.

You don't have to worship your Patron, or even to like them, but trying to gather more knowledge about the Lady of Pain or stealing from her (two things Warlocks may do to get powers) is also destruction-worthy in her eyes.

[Eldan]

While a lovely picture, I actually think it doesn't reflect anything I've heard of happening in any writings about Sigil. People clear the streets when warning comes that the Lady is approaching, and try to stay out of her way. Bowing and scraping is a great way to get yourself killed or Mazed.

That picture requires more context. It is from Harbinger House, one of the better adventure modules for Planescape, IMO.

So, context, short version: they are a crazy cult specific to the adventure. Spoiler: They all die in the adventure's opening scene. Everyone in that picture is dead of seconds away from death.

Context, longer version, very spoilery: One of Sigil's factions are the Godsmen, or Believers of the Source. They are trying to ascend through godhood or some other kind of higher existence through self-improvement, overcoming adversity and reincarnation. In Harbinger House, it is revealed that they have found two big things for the setting: a mysterious magical building in Sigil called Harbinger House, and the Harbingers. Harbinger House is a weird building with broken geometry, where rooms would move around and space occasionally went non-Euclidean, but most importantly, they found out that apparently, the Lady could not perceive what happened inside. The Harbingers were seemingly insane, but quite powerful people that the Godsmen believed where incredibly close to actually achieve godhood and just temporarily overwhelmed by their semi-divine powers.

In a bid for political power, they brought a bunch of Harbingers to Harbinger House, thinking that if someone were to ascend to godhood inside Sigil and chose it as their domain, they could replace the Lady of Pain. And maybe be well-disposed towards the friendly godsmen who had taken care of them in their confused state.

Anyway, of course two of those Harbingers escape and cause total havoc. One's a sadistic serial killer who thinks he has to torture people in a ritualistic way to harness their fear as divine energy. The other fancies himself the universe's greatest poet and has set his sight on wooing the Lady of Pain. Apparently, not because it's a challenge, but because he's quite genuinely in love. Thing is, he's so charismatic that he more or less accidentally starts a cult of people who think like him, so the streets of Sigil are now full of people who are throwing themselves at the Lady of Pain with love poems and flowers and then get eviscerated.

[Segev]

The other fancies himself the universe's greatest poet and has set his sight on wooing the Lady of Pain. Apparently, not because it's a challenge, but because he's quite genuinely in love. Thing is, he's so charismatic that he more or less accidentally starts a cult of people who think like him, so the streets of Sigil are now full of people who are throwing themselves at the Lady of Pain with love poems and flowers and then get eviscerated.
That sounds far more like what I would expect to be going on with respect to the Lady.

[Eldan]

Yeah. You can also see that the guys in the foreground are holding flowers and gifts and the guys in the background are contorted in agony and bleeding.

[MeeposFire]

I was going to say that the artwork seemed to support trying to worship or otherwise devote yourself to the lady of pain will lead to death since that is what is happenning there or about to happen to all of them.

If you want to make something similar I think it would have to be based on the Dabus. Certainly anything to do with the Lady would not be seen as official to anyone and could not involve worship or traditional patronage.