The artificer returns

[jaappleton]

To be honest, before looking at it's details, I half-expected Battle Smith to be more like the Self-forged from 4th edition.

That's pretty much exactly what I expected, too.

[Garfunion]

To be honest, before looking at it's details, I half-expected Battle Smith to be more like the Self-forged from 4th edition.
That is what I was thinking. I would give the iron defender to the Archivist, they seem to be more bookworm-y and would need a bodyguard.

[ProsecutorGodot]

That is what I was thinking. I would give the iron defender to the Archivist, they seem to be more bookworm-y and would need a bodyguard.

By that logic wizards should be the companion class. I don't think the Archivist is a great fit, unless we take out the entire Artificial Mind to put in Iron Defender, then its not really an Archivist anymore.

I agree with the party who says that Battle Smith currently appears to be two subclasses joined at the hip. There's a martial based class in there and there's also the companion class, they shouldn't be the same class.

[Garfunion]

By that logic wizards should be the companion class. I don't think the Archivist is a great fit, unless we take out the entire Artificial Mind to put in Iron Defender, then its not really an Archivist anymore.
I was thinking more of giving them a basic iron defender and going a different direction with the subclass (while keeping the archivist concept). But you are right, perhaps I should have brainstormed the redesign of the subclass a bit more before I posted an cut/paste iron defender feature.

[Tetrasodium]

So... the class should be limited by ephemeral tangential novels that should not be considered cannon which are all based on the ideas presented in TTRPGs?

That’s your justification? The Artificer is already struggling with the low-magic limitations of 5e. Crafting rules, magic items, & feats are already “optional”. So they have to careful design this class to not set on any toes or encourage feat taxes. This is why they have repeating crossbows & +x wands. Not because they want to make the Artificer more powerful but because they don’t want to impose or invalidate certain builds. Homunculi are a core part of Artificers, & I’m glad that they are giving variety to the subclasses the way they are.

uhhh... That is practically the opposite of what I said. The differences between versions are too great in too many ways for a direct 1:1 conversion to really work. every artificer archtype currently has a fancy thematic homunculi-like thing (turret/ai/homonculi/iron defender) & taking them away to add a homoculi would hurt them both in terms of being interesting/thematic and in terms of being useful. I mentioned the few known artificers in the novels not having one despite being very artificery to show that it's very reasonable to not have a creature called a "homonculous" and still be a great example of an artificer. The artificer archtypes have an ability that cuts down on time it takes to craft stuff already, move right cantrip for the job to a more reasonable level & you effectively have the benefits of the homonculi back home crafting your stuff.

With some of the differences between 3.5 & 5e, the current artificer archtypes fit eberron better than the original in some ways.

[Anderlith]

The Battlesmith is perfect, the ID allows him to have a few nifty options in melee & allows him to have a measure of defense/control if they go Ranged. Other than that, they don’t do much, they don’t step on any toes & the meat of the subclass is focused on their he Battlesmith.

The Archivist is too alien for most to really consider how to handle them right now. The only real flaw I see in it is that the manifested mind is invulnerable. I say give it 5HP per level & an 11 AC. I would much prefer it mimicked the furtive filtcher or dedicated wright. The mind having its own skills is the right way to go, the indestructible lightning rod is not.

[Anderlith]

snip

You want to get rid of an iconic class feature. That is what I said. That is also what YOU said. I’m telling you that it is wrong to do so. The Iron Defender matches perfectly to what Battlesmith Artificers are & do. Your noncannonal, non source material, third tier fictional book characters are not going to persuade me. Your argument is no different than demanding Barbarians give up Rage, or a Rogue give up their skills

[jaappleton]

Can everyone here do me one small favor?

Please, shout any and all Artificer build ideas at me.

I'm trying to think of a few and my brain is just fried from work. So... If you could help a guy out, I'd appreciate it.

[Wildarm]

Can everyone here do me one small favor?

Please, shout any and all Artificer build ideas at me.

I'm trying to think of a few and my brain is just fried from work. So... If you could help a guy out, I'd appreciate it.

We've been discussion some here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?588208-Theoretical-Battlesmith-Builds

Also further back in this thread I posted a few concepts.

Another fun concept. Probably more useful with a Tier 2/3 Start:

Cyborg Artificer:
1/2 Elf
Starting Stats
8 Str, 16 Dex, 10 Con, 8 Int, 16 Wis, 16 Cha

Survive with that low Con till level 16. :P

Then with your 3 infusions get Amulet of Health, Belt of Hill Giant Str, Headband of Intellect, Put your 4 ASIs in - 2x Dex 2x Wis
Stats at level 16:
21 Str, 20 Dex, 19 Con, 19 Int, 20 Wis, 16 Cha

Fluff it as your augmenting your body with mechanical devices. You're more machine than man/elf.

Avoid Beholders...

[Misterwhisper]

You want to get rid of an iconic class feature. That is what I said. That is also what YOU said. I’m telling you that it is wrong to do so. The Iron Defender matches perfectly to what Battlesmith Artificers are & do. Your noncannonal, non source material, third tier fictional book characters are not going to persuade me. Your argument is no different than demanding Barbarians give up Rage, or a Rogue give up their skills

barbarians did give up the way rage used to work
rogues did give up unique skill trainings and their huge skill numbers.
All martial classes gave up their higher to hit bonuses.

Just because a class did something years ago does not mean a thing.

Warlocks did not even cast spells at all originally, bards were not full casters, casters used to fail spells because they wore armor.

Welcome to 5e where no body cares what the sacred cow of a class used to be.

[Anderlith]

barbarians did give up the way rage used to work
rogues did give up unique skill trainings and their huge skill numbers.
All martial classes gave up their higher to hit bonuses.

Just because a class did something years ago does not mean a thing.

Warlocks did not even cast spells at all originally, bards were not full casters, casters used to fail spells because they wore armor.

Welcome to 5e where no body cares what the sacred cow of a class used to be.

Barbarians still have rage
Rogues still have the most skills
Martial still have the most attacks
Bards were always casters

Artificers used to not only pick which specific Homunculus they wanted but could also enhance them with things like armor, damage & flight. Stop acting like it’s anathema, because you want to perfectly replicate some obscure watered down book character

[Misterwhisper]

Barbarians still have rage
Rogues still have the most skills
Martial still have the most attacks
Bards were always casters

Artificers used to not only pick which specific Homunculus they wanted but could also enhance them with things like armor, damage & flight. Stop acting like it’s anathema, because you want to perfectly replicate some obscure watered down book character

I never mentioned a thing about book characters you are getting who you are complaining to backwards.

[jaappleton]

Also, let's all be clear on one thing regarding the Artificer:

Its designed, at least for 5E, to be the swiss army knife. They can heal, they blast a little, they can hit, they have skills... But they don't out-do any other class.

Except at being versatile. This is where they shine. At being able to do almost anything fairly well.

Can they out-smite a Paladin?
Can they out-heal a full caster?
Can it out blast a Wizard or Sorc?
Can it out-skill the Rogue?
Can it out-buff a Cleric, or Divine Soul?

....Nope.

Can it do a bit of all that? Absolutely.

[Rukelnikov]

Barbarians still have rage
Rogues still have the most skills
Martial still have the most attacks
Bards were always casters

Artificers used to not only pick which specific Homunculus they wanted but could also enhance them with things like armor, damage & flight. Stop acting like it’s anathema, because you want to perfectly replicate some obscure watered down book character

Edition changed, game changed, classes changed.

Druids and Rangers had the best companions in the game, Druid lost it completely, Ranger needs to take a specific subclass to get it.

You can't expect a 5e Artificer to be comparable to a 3.x one, most classes aren't comparable.

[Anderlith]

Edition changed, game changed, classes changed.

Druids and Rangers had the best companions in the game, Druid lost it completely, Ranger needs to take a specific subclass to get it.

You can't expect a 5e Artificer to be comparable to a 3.x one, most classes aren't comparable.

I understand that, but this Artificer works surprisingly well. A vocal minority is raising a stink because they don’t want Artificers to have homunculi, mostly because they don’t seem to want “pets” in general, ignorant of the fact it was a class feature, & is being implemented in a wonderful, streamlined way

[jaappleton]

I understand that, but this Artificer works surprisingly well. A vocal minority is raising a stink because they don’t want Artificers to have homunculi, mostly because they don’t seem to want “pets” in general, ignorant of the fact it was a class feature, & is being implemented in a wonderful, streamlined way

I won't lie, I'm not a 'pet' kind of player. I won't play a summoner style character, because I find rolling for all the summons just slows my turn to a crawl.

Even just one pet, I'm not too keen on.

But... I might have to deal with one if I want to make the Artificer that I want.

[Mjolnirbear]

Ok, I finally got some free time, so an analysis.

Thank you for a critique. You make many points, so I'm going to only address certain ones.



- Simple weapons + Crossbows
This was obviously just put there to make sure that people could get the most out of one of their infusions.
Actually the infusion wasn't there the first time around. I think its that the crossbow is iconic in a way to the artificer.

Thieves and tinkers tools, + 1 extra artisan tools.
Fits thematically but a little much honestly.
With a background you can easily start with 5 tool proficiencies, more if you get one from race.

Except for thieves tools, tools are ribbons. You go into this point many times, but the most salient point you make here is that the party artificer is likely hogging the spotlight here. This isn't anything new, though; just like a thief can be better at persuading than a paladin, sorcerer, warlock or bard. Many tables take this into account and avoid overlapping abilities anyways; doing this for tools is no different and matters significantly less than it does for skills.

Tools are a role-playing hook only. It's one of the reasons I personally think Performance and Animal Handling, two of the least-used skills, should have been tools instead.


Saves of Con + Int
Well that is about the best that any caster would ever want. Main casting stat and the Con for your concentration checks.
Huge bonus there.

According to all the minmax guides, con proficiency is all but required. I'm not sure I agree but many do indeed rate it strong. This is not unprecedented though, as sorcerers get it too.





Gee, I wonder how long it will be before people try to argue that you can't counterspell an artificer because you can't see them casting...
That is a VERY bad sentence to put in the description that is just screaming to be metagamed by powergamers. And yet was there not just a huge thread about the RAW regarding material components and counterspells? Including foci?

Power gamers will powergame. We cannot stop it, and the RAW in place already gives a DM the excuse to say no. The point of the ability is for fluff, to give permission to play around with it.


. Also, they get spells starting at level 1, no other non-full caster gets that. you're not wrong, but so what? No other caster save sorcerer gets metamagic. No other martial save fighter gets four attacks. The game is full of "...and here's a little something fun only this class gets."


. Cantrips:
Wait, they are a "1/2" caster that gets cantrips? That is hugely insulting to the Paladins and Rangers out there who never get them. as someone already mentioned, 1/3 casters already offer that insult.




Repeating Shot:
Ok this one I have a problem with.
+1 to hit and damage just like enhance weapon.
But it lets you use a hand crossbow with one hand and use the other one for a shield/other weapon/whatever.
CBE with people machine gunning hand crossbows was already VERY powerful and now they can do it while using a shield too.
Nope, that is not cool. That is just mad power gaming munchkinry.

Very strong, yes. But getting rid of a minor weapon property is hardly the most offensive thing this game has. And given the glut of competing bonus action the artificer has, why bother taking CBE?

Not sure your issue with shields. Shields come with medium armor. Every time. It seems odd you complain about halfcasters getting cantrips but then object to medium armor-wearers getting shields.





I would have no problem with this or Repeating Shot, if they also just released a normal magic item with those properties.
The only way to do that otherwise was a Dwarven Thrower, in my opinion the best weapon in the game. Not sure what your issue is here. That no one else can have repeating or returning weapons? Because that's bunk. If the DM wants them, the DM will include them. Since magic items are never ever at the purview of the player except by DM choice, this changes nothing.

And infusions aren't permanent magic items. They don't belong on the DMG magic item tables.

Lastly, why you complain these aren't normal magic item properties and the boots or pouch aren't is, well, weird. I hesitate to put it this way but it's almost like...jealousy?









Spell Storing Item:
Ok, it is level 18 so I know it should be really powerful, but come one.
I can put a buff or whatever spell I want in an item and then use it up to 10 times without having to recharge it.
AND it does not make me lose the spell
AND I do not even have to have it on my list any more
AND It says nothing about concentration...

I find nothing broken about this. A wizard can cast infinite magic missiles without using a spell slot, a druid can cast spells while shifted into a spider, a monk can become resistant to all damage, a fighter has two actions surges and three save rerolls...






Soul of Artifice:
So you can attune up to 6 items all of a sudden.
Kind of seems like this should be spaced out over the class more.
Wait, you ALSO get a +1 to all saves for each one, so you just poof into getting the saves of a paladin as if they had a charisma of 22...
That is crazy.
6 attuned items is not so crazy if spread out, the save bonus on top is too much.
Monk gets proficiency on all saves at 14. Including death saves. At this level, that's +5 to each save they are not already proficient in.



BONUS SPELLS:
Nothing to write home about, all good to have around for free, speaking of which, Warlocks do not get their patron spells for free, they only get the choice to pick them to take up their small spells known slots, and PHB rangers do not even get bonus spells, that was all added in the "definitely not power creep" subclasses later. personally I believe this is a problem with the ranger and the warlock, not the artificer.






Free pet that can bonus action help, guidance cantrip, 5 to 7 tool proficiencies all with expertise.

Might as well just tell your dm not to bother ever using checks that require tools use, you are just going to win.

Last time I'll mention tools... Because tools are ribbons. Seriously! Who cares if you win at blacksmithing!? Or knitting? The only tools of significance are thieves' tools, and rogue and bard can both get expertise in this, get help in their check, and benefit from guidance. This is nothing. Nothing at all. Artificer are masters of tools. It's their thing. Their defining characteristic, and it's a frigging ribbon. Sheesh.




Gains bonuses when you gain proficiency bonuses...
Hold on... are we going to go back and give that to any other class that gets a pet/enhanced familiar.
Nope, that will never happen, because they refuse to reprint the PHB with all the additions and fixes.
Sorry Chain Warlock and Beastmaster Rangers, no new goodies for you, have to play the new stuff if you want the things you should have had.
But again, definitely not power creep.

Don't agree with chain warlock, but beast master rangers definitely get the shaft here. Again, though, this is a problem with the ranger and their refusal to reprint it, not a problem with the artificer.


Sorry life clerics, keep your +2 to healing, I will take my INT bonus.
Oh, also, multiple free Lesser Restorations just lying around. Wait, so you can only one class that's extra good at healing? And it's not like life clerics don't have their own tricks...

This is a common theme in your posts. Like a classes unique abilities are sacred and inviolable. But a warlock can smite, a paladin gets Hex, a knowledge cleric gets expertise, a bugbear has sneak attack, a goblin has cunning action, a warlock can get shillelagh, a bard can steal find steed and swift quiver...




Telepathic advisor: 2 more skills, so now we are up to minimum 4 skills and 5 tools.
Like a half-elf bard/rogue? Or taking a dip into Knowledge cleric? Getting lots of skills is not difficult and there are many paths to that.


Manifest Mind:
So you make a floating, spectral... thing that:
- has darkvision
- flies
- you can share senses with
- can be the starting point of spells that you can cast through it...
Wait. So unlike other familiars who can deliver touch spells, but will die pretty fast.
This thing can float around, is immune to all effects, you can cast any of your spells through it that you want as if it cast them, while using its senses.
Welcome to 3/4 casting from full cover with complete immunity at level 3 up to INT/LR.
Pretty much pick at least one fight that you can just hide and control.

I liked this ability when it was in Shadowrun and they called it a Rigger.

Wait, it gets even worse...

Information Overload:
Float around looking though your invulnerable specter and can now use your action to use an INT save, (the easiest in the game) ability that does 1d8 psychic damage (one of the lest resisted)
AND it give whoever attacks them advantage on their next attack.
hold on, still more
AFTER it has been a successful damage ability you can blow spell levels to essentially smite with it...

If someone created a wizard subclass that had that ability as a capstone, people would question the brokenness of if.

but wait, there is more.

It is not a spell, so sit behind cover and just use this with impunity up to 300 feet away while invisible if you want.
They can't do anything to it, it is immune.
you do not have to be there, you can use its senses
you are not casting a spell so it does not break invisibly or sanctuary or anything else like that.

but wait there is STILL more.

Mind Network

Psychic Damage: Now you can add your INT to damage of your floating, invisible, psychic ball of death.
oh, you can also telepathically communicate across the world or even other planes.

But wait there is STILL STILL more.

Pure Information:

Now when you psychic smite someone they must make an intelligence save or be stunned until the end of your next turn.
So, int save, scaling 1d8 + int damage, can smite, if you smite they have to save or be stunned for at least a turn, can do it from 300 feet away, from cover, and it is immune to effects and abilities...

who the hell made this?

Oh, also you can teleport to your floating death machine or any of your other magic items once for free or with any level 2 spell slot or above...
in many ways this is, in my opinion, your most significant comment.

I feel a great deal of abuse can be avoided by simply ruling that maintaining concentration on seeing through its senses requires your action each turn. That would put it on par with most familiars and would also require you to be able to have line of sight to any spell target since you can't cast and use the familiars senses at the same time.

Even with that caveat, which is a relatively simple fix, there are definite improvements to be made here.




The remnants of Mike Mearles try to rip off another video game... I really dislike your use of personal attacks when you disagree with something.


Arcane Turret:

Well this just flies in the face of the idea of not liking sci-fi in fantasy settings.
Many people love the ideas of flintlock or similar firearms in their DND and some hate the concept, some at WOTC hate it as well.
So how do we cover this, let's keep firearms as an optional rule in the DMG but go ahead and make a subclass that pulls out a tool box and Team Fort's a walking mechanical gun turret...
I do not see this EVER hitting print but on we go. even if it hits print, a DM is not obliged to allow it at his table. And if you don't like it, don't play it. I personally don't like guns in my fantasy, but nothing here requires me to view this as sci-fi. The fact that you do does not mean they are. Even if they were explicitly described using sci-fi terms like robotic, lasers, technological or whatever, like the previous iteration of gunsmith, you can simply fluff it. Ultimately, there is no such thing as badwrongfun in D&D.

[Rukelnikov]

I won't lie, I'm not a 'pet' kind of player. I won't play a summoner style character, because I find rolling for all the summons just slows my turn to a crawl.

Even just one pet, I'm not too keen on.

But... I might have to deal with one if I want to make the Artificer that I want.

I'm quite the contrary, I love pets, mained a Lock in WoW for the pet :P

And for my taste 5e doesn't have any real pet, Revised Beastmaster is the only one that has a true pet, but its UA :(

[Makorel]

Knowing nothing to very little about 3.5e and Eberron I could take or leave the companions.

Homunculus makes sense for the Alchemist, and I doubt my issues with the subclass (being pigeonholed into acid and poison for one) would be solved by getting rid of it. It's not the first thing I personally think of when I think "Alchemist" but it makes sense.

Turret hardly feels like a companion. It's more like they took the gun from the first Artificer and put it on a stick, and part of why I'm not too broken up about them removing it. Maybe we can split the difference and give the Artillerist a Backpack Gun like the Engineer in Risk of Rain. Or give it 30 feet of movement; make it functional enough to be worth projecting emotions onto.

Similarly the Mind for the Archivist feels more like a familiar or a class feature than a true companion, weird combat shenanigans not withstanding. It doesn't have HP and you have to use your whole action to get it to use its attack so in some ways it's more like you're wielding a smart weapon than directing a minion. I think this one just needs a bit of tuning.

The Iron Guardian seems to be the odd man out. Battle Smith is probably powerful enough that you could just pretend the Guardian doesn't exist if you just want to be the Gish 5e supposedly promised you but never delivered. On the other hand if you want to be the mechanist or golemancer the Battle Smith implies with the Guardian then I would expect the subclass to lean into that harder, centering its combat strategy around making the Guardian the star instead of the sidekick, and allowing for more interesting customization options than static damage upgrades. I wouldn't want this at the expense of the battle prowess of the Battle Smith though, hence the idea to split this subclass in two.

Crazy idea: Give the Iron Guardian to the Artillerist as an option and call him the "Siege Master" or something. It's more flavorful than the Turret and it makes sense that the Artificer that's trained for war to have several different siege engines at his disposal.

Another crazy idea: Instead of a companion the Battle Smith turns their armor into Mech Armor to augment their abilities. Then they're not swinging their sword the mech suit they crafted is, hence the damage from Int.

[jaappleton]

Knowing nothing to very little about 3.5e and Eberron I could take or leave the companions.

Homunculus makes sense for the Alchemist, and I doubt my issues with the subclass (being pigeonholed into acid and poison for one) would be solved by getting rid of it. It's not the first thing I personally think of when I think "Alchemist" but it makes sense.

Turret hardly feels like a companion. It's more like they took the gun from the first Artificer and put it on a stick, and part of why I'm not too broken up about them removing it. Maybe we can split the difference and give the Artillerist a Backpack Gun like the Engineer in Risk of Rain. Or give it 30 feet of movement; make it functional enough to be worth projecting emotions onto.

Similarly the Mind for the Archivist feels more like a familiar or a class feature than a true companion, weird combat shenanigans not withstanding. It doesn't have HP and you have to use your whole action to get it to use its attack so in some ways it's more like you're wielding a smart weapon than directing a minion. I think this one just needs a bit of tuning.

The Iron Guardian seems to be the odd man out. Battle Smith is probably powerful enough that you could just pretend the Guardian doesn't exist if you just want to be the Gish 5e supposedly promised you but never delivered. On the other hand if you want to be the mechanist or golemancer the Battle Smith implies with the Guardian then I would expect the subclass to lean into that harder, centering its combat strategy around making the Guardian the star instead of the sidekick, and allowing for more interesting customization options than static damage upgrades. I wouldn't want this at the expense of the battle prowess of the Battle Smith though, hence the idea to split this subclass in two.

Crazy idea: Give the Iron Guardian to the Artillerist as an option and call him the "Siege Master" or something. It's more flavorful than the Turret and it makes sense that the Artificer that's trained for war to have several different siege engines at his disposal.

Another crazy idea: Instead of a companion the Battle Smith turns their armor into Mech Armor to augment their abilities. Then they're not swinging their sword the mech suit they crafted is, hence the damage from Int.

I'm in favor of the Iron Guardian moving to the Artillerist as a turret option.

Also LOVE the idea of Battle Smith getting some sort of armor. I AM IRON GNOME!

[Tetrasodium]

I understand that, but this Artificer works surprisingly well. A vocal minority is raising a stink because they don’t want Artificers to have homunculi, mostly because they don’t seem to want “pets” in general, ignorant of the fact it was a class feature, & is being implemented in a wonderful, streamlined way

Given that the current artificer archtypes are generally well received on here with a few exceptions and will liked in the eberron community despite wanting a few tweaks to things that are in the class/ archtypes themselves that aren't quite where they should be... that makes you the "vocal minority".

As the vocal minority you are skewing what people are telling you to the point of absurdity. People are telling you that the current archtypes are pretty nice & that what the homonculous used to do is represented in various other abilities in the class but that adding the homonculous would be difficult without hurting the class itself. Rather than suggesting ways that you think such a thing could be added without hurting the class or anything else like why it is so intrinsic to the feel of an artificer you choose to distort what others are saying.

[Kane0]

Good breakdown Misterwhisper. I dont agree on every point but I imagine my feedback to WotC will be quite similar to yours.

[Anderlith]

Given that the current artificer archtypes are generally well received on here with a few exceptions and will liked in the eberron community despite wanting a few tweaks to things that are in the class/ archtypes themselves that aren't quite where they should be... that makes you the "vocal minority".

As the vocal minority you are skewing what people are telling you to the point of absurdity. People are telling you that the current archtypes are pretty nice & that what the homonculous used to do is represented in various other abilities in the class but that adding the homonculous would be difficult without hurting the class itself. Rather than suggesting ways that you think such a thing could be added without hurting the class or anything else like why it is so intrinsic to the feel of an artificer you choose to distort what others are saying.

Not at all. I’ve made points before in the playground about how every Artificer should have a Homunculus that embodied the ideals of their subclass in a supportive role, mostly because I feel this is the right way to handle it.
Nobody liked the idea of the generic “clockwork animal” of the last Artificer iteration.
When we only had two subclasses I even suggested that they add a “Battlesmith” & that they could give them the old Iron Defender, instead of more “sci-fi” concepts like clockwork magic powerarmor. Battlesmith is a great subclass, the Artillerist needs the most work, & Archivist needs it’s language & a few things tweeked.

I find it galling that people would want to in my mind sabotage the Artificer because things like the Ranger being poorly done. If you google, “Eberron Artificer” one of the very first images is that of a dwarf (gnome?) with an Iron Defender. It is iconic. It should be included. If someone thinks that it would be better served helping the Artillerist then argue that the Homunculus should be chosen from a list not to just do away with it. Other people see the Battlesmith as their first “real” way to have an Int gish so they want to take out all the bits that don’t fit into their idea of a spellsword frontline, never minding that that is not how Artificers are presented. It’s like trying to take songs away from a valor bard & tell them to make them have better buffs & damage.

[Misterwhisper]

Thank you for a critique. You make many points, so I'm going to only address certain ones.


Actually the infusion wasn't there the first time around. I think its that the crossbow is iconic in a way to the artificer.


Except for thieves tools, tools are ribbons. You go into this point many times, but the most salient point you make here is that the party artificer is likely hogging the spotlight here. This isn't anything new, though; just like a thief can be better at persuading than a paladin, sorcerer, warlock or bard. Many tables take this into account and avoid overlapping abilities anyways; doing this for tools is no different and matters significantly less than it does for skills.

Tools are a role-playing hook only. It's one of the reasons I personally think Performance and Animal Handling, two of the least-used skills, should have been tools instead.



According to all the minmax guides, con proficiency is all but required. I'm not sure I agree but many do indeed rate it strong. This is not unprecedented though, as sorcerers get it too.


And yet was there not just a huge thread about the RAW regarding material components and counterspells? Including foci?

Power gamers will powergame. We cannot stop it, and the RAW in place already gives a DM the excuse to say no. The point of the ability is for fluff, to give permission to play around with it.

you're not wrong, but so what? No other caster save sorcerer gets metamagic. No other martial save fighter gets four attacks. The game is full of "...and here's a little something fun only this class gets."

as someone already mentioned, 1/3 casters already offer that insult.



Very strong, yes. But getting rid of a minor weapon property is hardly the most offensive thing this game has. And given the glut of competing bonus action the artificer has, why bother taking CBE?

Not sure your issue with shields. Shields come with medium armor. Every time. It seems odd you complain about halfcasters getting cantrips but then object to medium armor-wearers getting shields.



Not sure what your issue is here. That no one else can have repeating or returning weapons? Because that's bunk. If the DM wants them, the DM will include them. Since magic items are never ever at the purview of the player except by DM choice, this changes nothing.

And infusions aren't permanent magic items. They don't belong on the DMG magic item tables.

Lastly, why you complain these aren't normal magic item properties and the boots or pouch aren't is, well, weird. I hesitate to put it this way but it's almost like...jealousy?








I find nothing broken about this. A wizard can cast infinite magic missiles without using a spell slot, a druid can cast spells while shifted into a spider, a monk can become resistant to all damage, a fighter has two actions surges and three save rerolls...



Monk gets proficiency on all saves at 14. Including death saves. At this level, that's +5 to each save they are not already proficient in.


personally I believe this is a problem with the ranger and the warlock, not the artificer.





Last time I'll mention tools... Because tools are ribbons. Seriously! Who cares if you win at blacksmithing!? Or knitting? The only tools of significance are thieves' tools, and rogue and bard can both get expertise in this, get help in their check, and benefit from guidance. This is nothing. Nothing at all. Artificer are masters of tools. It's their thing. Their defining characteristic, and it's a frigging ribbon. Sheesh.





Don't agree with chain warlock, but beast master rangers definitely get the shaft here. Again, though, this is a problem with the ranger and their refusal to reprint it, not a problem with the artificer.

Wait, so you can only one class that's extra good at healing? And it's not like life clerics don't have their own tricks...

This is a common theme in your posts. Like a classes unique abilities are sacred and inviolable. But a warlock can smite, a paladin gets Hex, a knowledge cleric gets expertise, a bugbear has sneak attack, a goblin has cunning action, a warlock can get shillelagh, a bard can steal find steed and swift quiver...


Like a half-elf bard/rogue? Or taking a dip into Knowledge cleric? Getting lots of skills is not difficult and there are many paths to that.

in many ways this is, in my opinion, your most significant comment.

I feel a great deal of abuse can be avoided by simply ruling that maintaining concentration on seeing through its senses requires your action each turn. That would put it on par with most familiars and would also require you to be able to have line of sight to any spell target since you can't cast and use the familiars senses at the same time.

Even with that caveat, which is a relatively simple fix, there are definite improvements to be made here.

I really dislike your use of personal attacks when you disagree with something.

even if it hits print, a DM is not obliged to allow it at his table. And if you don't like it, don't play it. I personally don't like guns in my fantasy, but nothing here requires me to view this as sci-fi. The fact that you do does not mean they are. Even if they were explicitly described using sci-fi terms like robotic, lasers, technological or whatever, like the previous iteration of gunsmith, you can simply fluff it. Ultimately, there is no such thing as badwrongfun in D&D.

It is not a personal attack to say mike mearls rips off video games for class abilities. It is a fact, he has even said so himself.

[Damon_Tor]

I'm in favor of the Iron Guardian moving to the Artillerist as a turret option.

Also LOVE the idea of Battle Smith getting some sort of armor. I AM IRON GNOME!

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?583311-Artificer-Specializations-Armorer-and-Automatist) was my homebrew attempt at an armorer-artificer from a while ago.

It hits some of the same notes as the Battlesmith they just put out; there's no pet, but his armor has a buffer of hitpoints that functions a bit like the Abjurer's ward and gives him a pseudo d10 HP.

[jaappleton]

It is not a personal attack to say mike mearls rips off video games for class abilities. It is a fact, he has even said so himself.

He was on a big Destiny binge when he made the first Celestial Warlock.

[Spiritchaser]

I'm in favor of the Iron Guardian moving to the Artillerist as a turret option.

Also LOVE the idea of Battle Smith getting some sort of armor. I AM IRON GNOME!

Heh

I was thinking about that too

Er... not the gnome part.

But moving the pet to another subclass and replacing it with something a bit less powerful wouldn’t be a bad idea.

Possibly a choice of some modest weapon or armor augmentation options that open up further with level.

[Arkhios]

Can everyone here do me one small favor?

Please, shout any and all Artificer build ideas at me.

I'm trying to think of a few and my brain is just fried from work. So... If you could help a guy out, I'd appreciate it.

For reasons of my own, I've been toying around with an idea to mix Artificer with my, currently at 5th level, Oath of the Ancients paladin, who is a descendant of an archmage, but also a smith by dayjob whenever he's not adventuring. That's why I felt that Battle Smith could fit in.

I want to get access to at least 4th level paladin spells (Find Greater Steed and Dire Wolf mount), so I might take 7 Artificer levels from there on. The Iron Defender would then be created to resemble a Wolf (obviously; wolf is the totem animal of his Clan).

With only int 13, I understand the Iron Defender isn't going to be very sturdy, but meh. It's not the point for me to take Artificer, just a bonus (still, 38 hit points isn't awful; the Dire Wolf mount has same-ish hit points).

[Kane0]

I do still miss the gunsmith and some of the old alchemist perks though, reckon that should be incorporated back in. Infusions are a neat way to put them in but i’m worried that going forward every class will have an invocation equivalent.

[Anderlith]

I do still miss the gunsmith and some of the old alchemist perks though, reckon that should be incorporated back in. Infusions are a neat way to put them in but i’m worried that going forward every class will have an invocation equivalent.

I’m hoping the more utility uses of the alchemy satchel can be turned into infusions.

[Seclora]

I’m hoping the more utility uses of the alchemy satchel can be turned into infusions.

That would certainly be nice. There were a lot of good, classic items in that satchel.

Also because Honey Lemon Artificer was a lot of fun.

[Damon_Tor]

I just noticed that shield of faith was removed from the spell list. Any other spells that got cut?

[Kane0]

Right! I'm sick of waiting for WOTC!
I'm actually just a bit bored but anyway

The Artificer


Level
Prof
Special Abilities
Infusions
Cantrips
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th


1
2
Magical Tinkering, Tool Expertise
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2
2
Infusions, Spellcasting
2
2
2
-
-
-
-


3
2
Specialization, Tool Expertise
2
2
3
-
-
-
-


4
2
ASI
2
2
3
-
-
-
-


5
3
Extra Attack
2
2
4
2
-
-
-


6
3
Specialization Feature
3
2
4
2
-
-
-


7
3
Extra Attunement (1)
3
2
4
3
-
-
-


8
3
ASI
3
2
4
3
-
-
-


9
4
-
3
2
4
3
2
-
-


10
4
Magic Item Mastery
3
3
4
3
2
-
-


11
4
Extra Attunement (2)
4
3
4
3
3
-
-


12
4
ASI
4
3
4
3
3
-
-


13
5
-
4
3
4
3
3
1
-


14
5
Specialization Feature
4
4
4
3
3
1
-


15
5
Extra Attunement (3)
4
4
4
3
3
2
-


16
5
ASI
5
4
4
3
3
2
-


17
6
-
5
4
4
3
3
3
1


18
6
Spell-Storing Item
5
4
4
3
3
3
1


19
6
ASI
5
4
4
3
3
3
2


20
6
Soul of Artifice
5
4
4
3
3
3
2



Proficiencies
Armor: Light armor, medium armor, shields
Weapons: Simple weapons, hand crossbows, heavy crossbows
Tools: Any two of your choice
Saving Throws: Constitution, Intelligence
Skills: Choose two from Arcana, History, Investigation, Medicine, Nature, Perception, Sleight of Hand

Magical Tinkering
As an action you can touch a tiny nonmagical object with a tool you are proficient in to give it one of the following magical properties of your choice:
• The object sheds bright light in a 5-foot radius and dim light for an additional 5 feet.
• Whenever tapped by a creature, the object emits a recorded message that can be heard up to 10 feet away. You utter the message when you bestow this property on the object, and the recording can be no more than 6 seconds long.
• The object continuously emits your choice of an odor or a nonverbal sound (wind, waves, chirping, or the like). The chosen phenomenon is perceivable up to 10 feet away.
• A static visual effect appears on one of the object’s surfaces. This effect can be a picture, up to 25 words of text, lines and shapes, or a mixture of these elements, as you like.

The chosen property lasts indefinitely or until you end it as an action by touching the object. You can give the magic of this feature to a number of objects up to your Intelligence bonus (minimum one). If you exceed this number the oldest property immediately ends, and then the new property applies.

Tool Expertise
Choose two of your tool proficiencies. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies.
At 3rd level, you can choose two more of your tool proficiencies to gain this benefit.

Spellcasting
- Int based
- Prepare Int Mod + half level from full list
- Ritual Casting
- Tools you are proficient in can be used as Foci


Haven't made any changes, did anyone have qualms with the list?


Infusions
Choose two Artificer Infusions to learn from the list below. You learn additional Infusions as shown on the Artificer table. Whenever you gain a level in this class you can replace one Infusion you have learned with a new one.
When you finish a long rest you can touch a nonmagical object and imbue it with one of your Infusions, turning it into a magic item. An Infusion only works on certain kinds of objects as specified in the Infusion's description. All infused items require attunement, and you can choose to attune to the item when you infuse it. Infusions remain in an item indefinitely, but when you die the infusion fades after a number of days equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum one). An infusion also disappears if you swap it out for another Infusion. If you attempt to use an Infusion on more than one object the previous one loses it's Infusion when you place it within the new object.


Boots of the Winding Path (level 4+): While wearing these boots you can teleport once as part of your movement on your turn to a location you can see at a rate of 2 feet of movement for every 1 foot travelled.
Helping Hand: This Belt functions as a third hand for its wearer
Majestic Crown: This headband increases the user's Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma by 1, to a maximum of 18
Many-Handed Pouch: These pouches all share one interdimensional space of the same capacity as one pouch. A pouch that
Mighty Girdle: This belt increases the wearer's Strength, Dexterity and Constitution by 1, to a maximum of 18
Radiant Weapon: As a bonus action the wielder can make this melee weapon shine as bright as a torch (or stop). Additionally when the wielder hits with this melee weapon they can force the target to make a dexterity save (your spell DC) or be blinded until the end of the wielder's next turn. Once used this cannot be done again until the end of a short or long rest
Repeating Shot: This ranged weapon requires no ammunition and ignores the loading property, magically producing one piece each time you load it which disappears after it hits or misses its target.
Repulsion Shield (level 8+): While holding this shield the wielder can use their reaction after being hit by a melee attack to push the attacker up to 15 feet away. Once used this reaction cannot be used again until the wielder finishes a short or long rest
Returning Weapon: This thrown weapon immediately returns to the wielder's hand after it is used to make a ranged attack
Suregrip Soles: The wearer of these boots gains advantage on ability checks and saving throws against losing their footing, being forcibly moved or knocked prone.


Specialization
Choose the type of specialist you are: Alchemist, Archivist, Artillerist, Battlesmith or Mechanist. Your choice grants you features at 3rd level and again at 6th and 14th level.

Extra Attack
You can attack twice, rather than once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.

Extra Attunement
You can attune to up to four magic items at once.
At 11th level this ability improves, allowing you to attune to to up five magic items at once and again at 15th to six magic items at once.

Magic Item Mastery
You ignore all class, race, alignment and level requirements on the use of magic items

Spell-Storing Item
When you finish a long rest you can touch one weapon or spell focus and choose one 1st or 2nd level spell from the Artificer list to store in it. A creature holding the object can produce the spell's effect as an action, using your spellcasting ability modifier and their concentration as required. The spell stays within the object until it has been used a number of times equal to twice your Intelligence modifier (minimum twice) or until you use this feature again.

Soul of Artifice
You gain a +1 bonus to all saving throws per magic item you are currently attuned to.

That's boring, let's brainstorm something better
- +1 to attack rolls, damage rolls and saving throws per two magic items you are attuned to Still boring numbers!
- You can activate a magic item as a bonus action
- When you use your action to activate a magic item you can choose to activate another magic item as well.
- When you activate a magic item that uses charges you expend one fewer charges than normal
- When you expend the last charge on an item there is no chance of it being destroyed
- During a short rest you can recharge a magic item that uses charges with a number of charges up to your Intelligence modifier (minimum one). Once you do so you cannot do so again until you finish a long rest


Tools of the Trade: Alchemist Supplies and Herbalism Kit proficiency, Potions crafted in quarter time
Bonus Spells: Anybody have issues with the list?

Level 3: Alchemist's Homunculous or Satchel (choose one)
Homunculoud functions like the Find Familiar spell which you can use as a Ritual and grants you the homunculous form/statblock.
AC 12 + your Prof bonus, 4 HP per Artificer level, 20 foot speed + flight, acid/poison immunity
Has access to the Acid Splash cantrip using your spell DC and salves 3/day (reset on your long rest)

Satchel works like the one in the v1 Artificer, which we can tinker with the numbers of (and bring in some more Formula options) to be balanced.

Level 6: Alchemical Mastery
Resistance to Poison and Acid damage, Int bonus to healing, poison and acid damage from spells.
Satchel / Homunculous can cast Lesser Restoration once per short rest (your short rest)

Level 14: Chemical Savant
Immunity to Poison damage and condition, Acid damage and your Poison/Acid spells ignore damage resistance. Immunity is treated as resistance.
Satchel / Homunculous can cast Greater Restoration once per long rest (your long rest)



Tools of the Trade: Calligraphers Supplies and Forgery Kit proficiency, Scrolls crafted in quarter time
Bonus Spells: Anybody have issues with the list?

Level 3: Artificial Mind
Functions like Find Familiar, which you gain as a ritual spell. While active your familiar grants you two skill proficiencies of your choice (changeable at the end of a long rest) and when you use your action to sense through it you can choose to cast a spell through it as well a number of times equal to your Int modifier (minimum once) per long rest.

Level 6: Mind Network
While your Artificial mind is active you gain resistance to Psychic damage and can communicate telepathically with anyone bearing an item you have infused on the same plane of existence.

Level 14: Information Transfer
While your Artificial mind is active you can teleport to the unoccupied space nearest to the spectral mind or any of your infused items as long as they are on the same plane of existence. Once you use this ability you cannot do so again until you finish a short or long rest.



Tools of the Trade: Leatherworkers Supplies and Woodcarver's Tools proficiency, Weapons and Shields crafted in quarter time
Bonus Spells: Anybody have issues with the list?

Level 3: Battle Ready
Proficiency with martial weapons, INT to attack and damage with weapons.

Level 3: Siegestaff
As a bonus action you can plant a siegestaff in an unoccupied space within your reach. When planted and on subsequent turns you can use a bonus action to activate the siegestaff and cause it to do one of the following:
- Damage aura (appropriate amount of scaling force damage with a save)
- Create Ward (wall off a 15 foot area with appropriately scaling barrier until end of your next turn)
- Impair Vision (throw out an amount of appropriately scaling obscurement until end of your next turn)
A siegestaff has X AC and Y HP, and lasts for up to one minute before being rendered inert. Once you use this ability you cannot do so again until you finish a short or long rest.

Level 6: Arcane Jolt
Once per turn when you hit an enemy with an attack within 30 feet of your siegestaff you can either deal an additional 2d4 force damage or heal an ally you can see within 30 feet 2d4 HP.

Level 14: Siegestaff Recovery
You can place a second siegestaff between rests, though you can only have one active at a time.
If your siegestaff is destroyed before its minute has passed you can use your reaction to regain one expended spell slot of 1st or 2nd level.



Tools of the Trade: Tinkering Supplies and Smiths Tools proficiency, Armor crafted in quarter time
Bonus Spells: Anybody have issues with the list?

Level 3: Iron Defender
Shares your initiative, has it's own movement and reaction but takes the dodge action unless you use your bonus action to command it.
Mending restores 1d6 hit points (2d6 at level 5, 3d6 at level 11 and 4d6 at level 17) up to half it's maximum HP. It doesn't have the 3/day repair ability but it does have Hit Dice for short rests.
No getting it back with a spell slot, you use your long rest to rebuild a fallen defender.
AC, attack/damage, skills and saves all scale with your prof bonus, HP scales by Artificer level

Level 6: Improved Defender
Defender's attacks are considered magical and can use its Defensive Pounce for itself

Level 14:



Well that was a good day spent at work, I nearly got through it all!

[ProsecutorGodot]

SNIP

Minor complain (or at least, minor in the sense that it's only a small part of the large scope you've presented) but what do they do at level 1? This is kind of a big deal. What stats do you invest in during character creation to ensure that, if a combat happens at level 1, that you are able to defend yourself?

Early levels are deadly, level 1 the most of all (assuming you spend more than a single encounter there) and the idea that an intelligence based half caster class that is much more caster than martial would not be incentivized to have their intelligence stat do anything for the first level of their career is a bit off.

For Rangers and Paladin's casting is often a secondary thing and not many of their spells actually require them to have a very high casting stat. They're not going to be casting often either, with their limited spell slots and for paladins, alternate uses for them. For Artificers, its core to not just their class features but also their spells. They have cantrips, so they'll be casting often.

There's also the pretty big deal that they trade down a hit die size to compensate for their slightly better spellcasting. This spellcasting progression change means that at level 1 they are a d8 hit die martial, without all the benefits of being a monk or rogue. You start your adventure with below average damage, survivability and no incentive to have a decent score in your casting stat.

I don't see the problem with level 1 casting. I do see a problem without it.

Other than that change, I much prefer the Battle Smith subclass that you've presented over the Artillerist. Only complaint on this is that the Siegestaff seems incredibly limited. It only lasts 1 minute and is once per rest? It's not very exciting to have your defining class feature be that limited.

Do you also mean for there to not be a limit on active infusions? I can see that getting a bit out of hand.

[Kane0]

So cantrips at level 1, save spell slots for level 2?

I just wanted to nuke the walking turret, it just seemed really awkward conceptually. Siegestaff takes the place of a pet and is a lot more set-and-forget in style. Numbers can be tweaked.

You can make one of each infusion. I pulled out the boring +x and DMG copying items

[ProsecutorGodot]

So cantrips at level 1, save spell slots for level 2?

I just wanted to nuke the walking turret, it just seemed really awkward conceptually. Siegestaff takes the place of a pet and is a lot more set-and-forget in style. Numbers can be tweaked.

You can make one of each infusion. I pulled out the boring +x and DMG copying items

I don't think there's any reason to not allow them to cast spells start at level 1, cantrips and slots. They at the very least need cantrips so that they aren't focusing on crossbows for their first few levels. Splitting spellcasting rules is a no go.

I prefer the Siegestaff to the turret but I believe that the spell slot to ability charges mechanic is worth preserving. The Siegestaff is roughly on par with a first level spell (probably a bit stronger in utility, weaker offensively) but is already much weaker than the turret with the rate it's allowed to be used.

I still think it's problematic to allow each infusion to be applied at the same time, even if it's limited to one each. With only a few long rests you're able to increase each of your ability scores by one and gain a magical weapon. The new infusions you've added are either too powerful (Helping Hand, Crown, Girdle) or too weak (Suregrip Soles). I see the most problems with Helping Hand. It seems pretty tame, right up until you've outfitted a Barbarian/Paladin with a Shield and a Greataxe.

[Kane0]

I don't have a problem with it either really, apart from the weird multiclassing rules. The less that needs to be rewritten the better.

Totally fair, that's easy done.

Wait what? Number of infusions is the same as the UA as far as I know just less avaiable to pick from. Do you really consider +1 to three different stats (max 18) better than 'set Str to 19' ?
Also none of my infusions make a weapon magical. Some are notably less widely useful though, I originally had a few more purely utility ones (eg Timelock coating: one object of medium size or smaller becomes immune to rust and other forms of decay due to the passage of time).

I mean, I don't intend for the above to be the definitive version or anything, just a quick showcase. WotC can copy it whole cloth for all I care, just fix up the glaring flaws for pete sake.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I don't have a problem with it either really, apart from the weird multiclassing rules. The less that needs to be rewritten the better.

Totally fair, that's easy done.

Wait what? Number of infusions is the same as the UA as far as I know just less avaiable to pick from. Do you really consider +1 to three different stats (max 18) better than 'set Str to 19' ?
Also none of my infusions make a weapon magical. Some are notably less widely useful though, I originally had a few more purely utility ones (eg Timelock coating: one object of medium size or smaller becomes immune to rust and other forms of decay due to the passage of time).

I mean, I don't intend for the above to be the definitive version or anything, just a quick showcase. WotC can copy it whole cloth for all I care, just fix up the glaring flaws for pete sake.

The difference between "get +1/+1/+1" and "set strength score to 19" is that Gauntlets of Ogre power are locked behind being level 12 and prevent you from ever reaching 20 Str with them attuned. This girdle gives you a +1 when you have no reasonable expectation to reach 20 Str (or dex/con) and doesn't prevent you from doing so with your first ASI. That is, unless you intend for it to lower the cap for your ability scores.

You'd have to add a clause saying infused weapons do not count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistances to not have the weapons count as magical, seeing as they're explicitly called magic items. They don't need a bonus to their hit or damage to be considered a magical weapon, all they need is the magic. Even if you added such a clause, a player choosing Repeating Shot for a ranged weapon would probably take issue with the fact that their magical bow/gun with magically spawned ammunition isn't considered a magic weapon.

Magic Items: Weapons
Whether crafted for some fell purpose or forged to serve the highest ideals of chivalry, magic weapons are coveted by many adventurers.

Some magic weapons specify the type of weapon they are in their descriptions, such as a longsword or longbow. If a magic weapon doesn’t specify its weapon type, you may choose the type or determine it randomly.

If a magic weapon has the ammunition property, ammunition fired from it is considered magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage

[Kane0]

Oooohhh the level cap, yeah the stat items wouldnt be available from level 2, my bad.

I would have thought judging from the sheer number of times that i’ve seen “counts as magic for the purposes of...” would set the default to ‘doesnt count’ but worth being specific yes.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Oooohhh the level cap, yeah the stat items wouldnt be available from level 2, my bad.

I would have thought judging from the sheer number of times that i’ve seen “counts as magic for the purposes of...” would set the default to ‘doesnt count’ but worth being specific yes.

I don't recall an example of magic items using that wording, all I'm aware of is Monk Fists and other such class features that don't explicitly create magic items like Pact of the Blade for warlock. If you know of an example of a magic item that uses this wording then I could be mistaken.

[Kane0]

Indeed Monk and Bladelock are the PHB examples, which is the template wording I see pop up a lot in homebrew. I might have made an assumption of that being the norm ie if a weapon doesn't say it bypasses damage resistance without a + then it doesn't.

[Fnissalot]

The issue with the turret is that it is called turret. Call it an automaton wand, animated wand, wandbot-3000, self-casting wand with legs, or wandslinging construct. The name turret gives the wrong associations. The concept is cool. What is the difference between a gun and a wand? You know enough about one to understand how it works. Both would look like magic otherwise.

[Anderlith]

You do realize that a siegestaff is the size of a trebuchet right? It’s supposed to be a staff of steroids that is impractical to carry around

[Constructman]

You do realize that a siegestaff is the size of a trebuchet right? It’s supposed to be a staff of steroids that is impractical to carry around
Races with Powerful Build: "Our time has come!"

[Mortis_Elrod]

I dont see anything wrong with walking turret. In a world with artificers I imagine that the first solution to making turrets better might be to give it legs or wheels. Its like a tank with treads. course i've never had an issue with that kind of thing in fantasy, especially high fantasy. It just makes sense that it would exist in the same world where there is magical engineering.

The Iron Defender is like an iron golem prototype, makes sense on a battle smith too. Thats that next level thinking they pay artificers for. Any smith can just make some cool armor, but whats that supposed to do? Protect you right? only issue is that it incentives you to get closer to danger. If you want protection just make something that is smart enough to protect you that you don't have to put on your chest. Perfect solution for the crafty but relatively squishy guy.

Artificer looking really fun so far. Can't wait to test it.

[Anderlith]

I dont see anything wrong with walking turret. In a world with artificers I imagine that the first solution to making turrets better might be to give it legs or wheels. Its like a tank with treads. course i've never had an issue with that kind of thing in fantasy, especially high fantasy. It just makes sense that it would exist in the same world where there is magical engineering.

The Iron Defender is like an iron golem prototype, makes sense on a battle smith too. Thats that next level thinking they pay artificers for. Any smith can just make some cool armor, but whats that supposed to do? Protect you right? only issue is that it incentives you to get closer to danger. If you want protection just make something that is smart enough to protect you that you don't have to put on your chest. Perfect solution for the crafty but relatively squishy guy.

Artificer looking really fun so far. Can't wait to test it.

I completely agree. In fact I think the Artillerist should get an Arbalest style construct that could fly & reposition. Granted the Artillerist as it stands is a sort of defensive positioned blaster, digging in & shelling away. Give me a day or so & I’ll be posting a rework on the Artillerist, one a restructure of the existing one & the other a homebrew of my own that departs from the established feel.

[Misterwhisper]

Tried out the artificer this weekend as a PC, it lasted all of one combat before it was banned until revision.

We were level 6 and I killed an entire castle just by using project mind and information overload.

Some things I noticed:

The projected mind can not move more than 300 feet away from the OBJECT it is coming from, not you.

I simply sat in a house near the castle and manifested the mind from a rock I wrote some glyphs on.

I had the mind sit there as I opened the window and left the room taking the rock with me.

I walked past the rest of the group and walked outside and chucked the rock over the castle wall and onto the roof with my sling.

I went back to breakfast where the group discussed how to deal with the castle, as I just sat there and commanded the mind to float out my window and proceed to kill every guard in the castle over the next 15 mins as there was nothing they could do about it.

After breakfast I just told the rest of the group that I dealt with the castle already while eating breakfast.

I did have to use mage hand twice through the projected mind in order to open a few doors but that was simple.

Yeah, the ban hammer took a full swing.

[Tetrasodium]

You do realize that a siegestaff is the size of a trebuchet right? It’s supposed to be a staff of steroids that is impractical to carry around

More like a tree or telephone pole I think. Definitely too big to carry around a full blown military grade crew operated siege staff or antiaircraft gun, but the tripod mounted 50cal in a pickup equivalent or a shoulder mounted rog is totally doable. the turret is that sort of step down & totally reasonable. The fact that they don't call it a siege staff leaves room for siege staffs to asctually get introduced with tangible stats (maybe this fall even!)

[Mortis_Elrod]

Tried out the artificer this weekend as a PC, it lasted all of one combat before it was banned until revision.

We were level 6 and I killed an entire castle just by using project mind and information overload.

Some things I noticed:

The projected mind can not move more than 300 feet away from the OBJECT it is coming from, not you.

I simply sat in a house near the castle and manifested the mind from a rock I wrote some glyphs on.

I had the mind sit there as I opened the window and left the room taking the rock with me.

I walked past the rest of the group and walked outside and chucked the rock over the castle wall and onto the roof with my sling.

I went back to breakfast where the group discussed how to deal with the castle, as I just sat there and commanded the mind to float out my window and proceed to kill every guard in the castle over the next 15 mins as there was nothing they could do about it.

After breakfast I just told the rest of the group that I dealt with the castle already while eating breakfast.

I did have to use mage hand twice through the projected mind in order to open a few doors but that was simple.

Yeah, the ban hammer took a full swing.

So firstly this wouldn't work, because the item has to be in your hands to use the overload attack but assuming that was waved for whatever reason...
Hrmm. So i have a few questions. But the first issue is the range. Seemed like a really small castle. 300ft is alot but not that much..

How did the guards react to a floating visage that was walking around and then guards just dropping? Because i think it would take forever to chase all the guards and kill them. Its visible (though spectral, still visible) and it needs to be within 5ft of the target. and thats only 2d8+4 on fail save assuming 18 int at 6, the guards should have more than 20 health, and its full damage on fail, no damage on success.

Edit: course you could be spending all your spell slots. But thats only 6 slots (4 1st, 2 2nd level) and a castle should have way more people than that not to mention the fact you have to chase people with the mind.

So i guess there was what 5 people there? and they just waited to die?

[FilthyLucre]

Tried out the artificer this weekend as a PC, it lasted all of one combat before it was banned until revision.

We were level 6 and I killed an entire castle just by using project mind and information overload.

Some things I noticed:

The projected mind can not move more than 300 feet away from the OBJECT it is coming from, not you.

I simply sat in a house near the castle and manifested the mind from a rock I wrote some glyphs on.

I had the mind sit there as I opened the window and left the room taking the rock with me.

I walked past the rest of the group and walked outside and chucked the rock over the castle wall and onto the roof with my sling.

I went back to breakfast where the group discussed how to deal with the castle, as I just sat there and commanded the mind to float out my window and proceed to kill every guard in the castle over the next 15 mins as there was nothing they could do about it.

After breakfast I just told the rest of the group that I dealt with the castle already while eating breakfast.

I did have to use mage hand twice through the projected mind in order to open a few doors but that was simple.

Yeah, the ban hammer took a full swing.

As mentioned earlier you hella broke the rules, even if you didn't know it. Both Manifest Mind and Information Overload explicitly state that you can do this as a bonus action "while the item is on your person".

You are right about it not being able to move more than 300' away from the item that emanates it... but that item must also be on your person. So it effectively means it can't move more than 300' away from you.

[Misterwhisper]

So firstly this wouldn't work, because the item has to be in your hands to use the overload attack but assuming that was waved for whatever reason...
Hrmm. So i have a few questions. But the first issue is the range. Seemed like a really small castle. 300ft is alot but not that much..

How did the guards react to a floating visage that was walking around and then guards just dropping? Because i think it would take forever to chase all the guards and kill them. Its visible (though spectral, still visible) and it needs to be within 5ft of the target. and thats only 2d8+4 on fail save assuming 18 int at 6, the guards should have more than 20 health, and its full damage on fail, no damage on success.

Edit: course you could be spending all your spell slots. But thats only 6 slots (4 1st, 2 2nd level) and a castle should have way more people than that not to mention the fact you have to chase people with the mind.

So i guess there was what 5 people there? and they just waited to die?

That is not what the ability does, or how it works.

1. I guess my DM did not notice the item problem with overload, although I could have just followed it in under invisibility and then rope tricked somewhere.

2. The floating specter must stay within 300 feet of the item it came from, not 300 feet from you.

3. 300 feet radius is a 600ft wide sphere, easily enough to cover most castles.

4. Information overload is not a spell and not subject to the limitation of using spells through the projected mind

5. 30 feet of movement is not hard to harry people with, when the guards outside started to run away I just sent it in the castle.

6. I only had to cast 2 spells through the projected mind, both were just mage hand to open a door or 2.

7. All in all I want to say I killed about 8 guards before the rest just ran.



Also the floating projected mind is the ultimate scouting tool.

It is not invisible or anything but it has dark vision, can fly, and in impervious to abilities.

[Rukelnikov]

Tried out the artificer this weekend as a PC, it lasted all of one combat before it was banned until revision.

We were level 6 and I killed an entire castle just by using project mind and information overload.

Some things I noticed:

The projected mind can not move more than 300 feet away from the OBJECT it is coming from, not you.

I simply sat in a house near the castle and manifested the mind from a rock I wrote some glyphs on.

I had the mind sit there as I opened the window and left the room taking the rock with me.

I walked past the rest of the group and walked outside and chucked the rock over the castle wall and onto the roof with my sling.

I went back to breakfast where the group discussed how to deal with the castle, as I just sat there and commanded the mind to float out my window and proceed to kill every guard in the castle over the next 15 mins as there was nothing they could do about it.

After breakfast I just told the rest of the group that I dealt with the castle already while eating breakfast.

I did have to use mage hand twice through the projected mind in order to open a few doors but that was simple.

Yeah, the ban hammer took a full swing.

You need to have the item on your person to use information overload

[FilthyLucre]

That is not what the ability does, or how it works.

1. I guess my DM did not notice the item problem with overload, although I could have just followed it in under invisibility and then rope tricked somewhere.

2. The floating specter must stay within 300 feet of the item it came from, not 300 feet from you.

3. 300 feet radius is a 600ft wide sphere, easily enough to cover most castles.

4. Information overload is not a spell and not subject to the limitation of using spells through the projected mind

5. 30 feet of movement is not hard to harry people with, when the guards outside started to run away I just sent it in the castle.

6. I only had to cast 2 spells through the projected mind, both were just mage hand to open a door or 2.

7. All in all I want to say I killed about 8 guards before the rest just ran.



Also the floating projected mind is the ultimate scouting tool.

It is not invisible or anything but it has dark vision, can fly, and in impervious to abilities.

The item has to be on your person for both abilities to function. Even though it's clumsily worded, it boils down to still having to be within 300' of you because the item has to be on your person.

[Mortis_Elrod]

That is not what the ability does, or how it works.

1. I guess my DM did not notice the item problem with overload, although I could have just followed it in under invisibility and then rope tricked somewhere.

2. The floating specter must stay within 300 feet of the item it came from, not 300 feet from you.

3. 300 feet radius is a 600ft wide sphere, easily enough to cover most castles.

4. Information overload is not a spell and not subject to the limitation of using spells through the projected mind

5. 30 feet of movement is not hard to harry people with, when the guards outside started to run away I just sent it in the castle.

6. I only had to cast 2 spells through the projected mind, both were just mage hand to open a door or 2.

7. All in all I want to say I killed about 8 guards before the rest just ran.



Also the floating projected mind is the ultimate scouting tool.

It is not invisible or anything but it has dark vision, can fly, and in impervious to abilities.
Not once did i mention spell limitations, I was saying the damage output would just be mediocre without expending spell slots, and the ability itself doesnt do any damage unless they fail the save.

Also It DOES have to be within 5ft of the target thats what it says.

"As an action while the item is on your person, you can try to magically overload the thoughts of one creature you or the mind can see that is within 5 feet of the manifested mind, channeling a jumble of information from the artificial mind."

The item has to be in your hand to use the Overload function. Which means you have only a 300ft range(radius) centered on you, and it cant go through walls, it only moves 30ft max per turn, and it has to be 5ft away from the target, only targeting one creature per turn, and you either take full damage or no damage on success/fail of save.

even 8 guards seems excessive, one you could sneak up on, maybe 2. I think that was entirely on the DM not reacting well.

[RedMage125]

Anyone think we'll get a new Artificer in the new Eberron Hardcover book (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?588430-Eberron-Hardcover-2019!&p=23921702#post23921702)?

[FilthyLucre]

Anyone think we'll get a new Artificer in the new Eberron Hardcover book (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?588430-Eberron-Hardcover-2019!&p=23921702#post23921702)?

I would be absolutely shocked if the hardcover ebberon book doesn't contain the official/final artificer.

[GlenSmash!]

Just saw this idea on another site. Apologies if it's been mentioned in this thread already.

What if the homunculus was an infusion? Thus available to all Artificer's but not baked into any of them.

Iron Defender could be a higher level infusion.

Seems like an elegant way of handling the "Pet Problem"

[Man_Over_Game]

Just saw this idea on another site. Apologies if it's been mentioned in this thread already.

What if the homunculus was an infusion? Thus available to all Artificer's but not baked into any of them.

Iron Defender could be a higher level infusion.

Seems like an elegant way of handling the "Pet Problem"

Wouldn't be a terrible idea. It'd basically be a lot like the Warlock, having a lot of customization for singular, reusable, unique tricks.

The trick would then come down to figuring out what the differences between the Warlock and the Artificer would be, and whether those differences helped define themselves. You don't just want the Artificer to be "The Warlock, but with Long Rest spells and buffs".

[Anderlith]

Here is a quick write up of the Artillerist rework I promised. Please forgive any logical holes in the sake of brevity. Feel free to offer critique.

Level 3: Arcane Cannonade
You create a medium sized construct that can take the form of say a belching frogbeast, a drake/dragon with a cannon mouth, or a diminutive golem with a cannon on its back, basically any squat vaguely quadrupedal or “monkey run” type creature with a visible cannon as a mouth or mounted to it. You pick one configuration & can change it per short or long rest

HP: 5xLevel +Int
AC: 18
Spd: 30ft

Immunity to Poison, charm, exhaustion
Darkvision 60ft
Skills: Athletics +2 Perception +4

Might of the Master

Actions: (Configurations)
Flamethrower
Force Ballista
Healing Aura

Reaction
Repulse, if struck make the target makes a DC 10+Int+Prof or be flung back 10ft

Stats
Str 14
Dex 10
Con 15
Int 4
Wis 10
Cha 7

At level 6 you can add your Int to all Arcane Cannonade attacks

At level 14 you get Fortified Position as normal except instead of getting two turrets the damage of all attacks made by the Arcane Cannonade gain an extra die of damage, & Repulse does 1d6 damage

[GlenSmash!]

Wouldn't be a terrible idea. It'd basically be a lot like the Warlock, having a lot of customization for singular, reusable, unique tricks.

The trick would then come down to figuring out what the differences between the Warlock and the Artificer would be, and whether those differences helped define themselves. You don't just want the Artificer to be "The Warlock, but with Long Rest spells and buffs".

I am guilty of thinking more classes should be built like the Warlock. One of my favorite Ranger Hombrews had features that essentially functioned like Invocations.

[Kane0]

Question: Would people prefer something like an infusion that turns a crossbow into a gun or a full gunsmith subclass? I don't know if getting a single item/special ranged weapon attack justifies an entire subclass to itself.


The issue with the turret is that it is called turret. Call it an automaton wand, animated wand, wandbot-3000, self-casting wand with legs, or wandslinging construct. The name turret gives the wrong associations. The concept is cool. What is the difference between a gun and a wand? You know enough about one to understand how it works. Both would look like magic otherwise.
An issue. It has a few, such as being not quite a creature and also not quite an object. Guns are also not universally applicable, though they are much less contentious.


You do realize that a siegestaff is the size of a trebuchet right? It’s supposed to be a staff of steroids that is impractical to carry around
I did not.

Sidenote: I object to every subclass getting a pet. Subclasses are supposed to provide both thematic and mechanical variety, in some cases redefining how that class/character plays. If all subclasses give you different variations of the same thing, that thing should be part of the main class to leave room for the subclasses to differentiate.

[Misterwhisper]

Question: Would people prefer something like an infusion that turns a crossbow into a gun or a full gunsmith subclass?

I think it was more the appeal of having a special weapon to use class abilities with.

I don’t really care what form it takes.

It would have to be reworked completely though due to them getting a second attack essentially.

The second attack throws everything off for it.

Not sure if it was get rid of guns but give them a second attack or give them a second attack but had to take out the gun.

I always liked weapon specialists.

Really miss the weapon focus and specialization stuff.

[Trustypeaches]

Just saw this idea on another site. Apologies if it's been mentioned in this thread already.

What if the homunculus was an infusion? Thus available to all Artificer's but not baked into any of them.

Iron Defender could be a higher level infusion.

Seems like an elegant way of handling the "Pet Problem"Only if you view it as problem.

I like the Pets, and that they have unique strengths and weaknesses, on top of specific flavor for the subclass. I think making them infusions undermines that.

[Anderlith]

Sidenote: I object to every subclass getting a pet. Subclasses are supposed to provide both thematic and mechanical variety, in some cases redefining how that class/character plays. If all subclasses give you different variations of the same thing, that thing should be part of the main class to leave room for the subclasses to differentiate.

I’m staunchly on the other end. A thematically appropriate Homunculus would be perfect.

[GlenSmash!]

Only if you view it as problem.

I like the Pets, and that they have unique strengths and weaknesses, on top of specific flavor for the subclass. I think making them infusions undermines that.

I dislike having pets but I think it would be foolish to tailor to just my needs alone. I am after all only one person. I felt having a choice is a better way of satisfying both camps.

You could still have the unique flavors even with a Homunculus Infusion. either by having multiple Infusions with subclass type as a prereq, or having a single Infusion but the form it takes depends on the subclass.

Ultimately if there is a pet, I'll just end up refluffing it anyway.

[Kane0]

I’m staunchly on the other end. A thematically appropriate Homunculus would be perfect.

So incorporate the pet into the primary part of the class, then differentiate it in the subclass. Say level 1 you get your pet, level 2 casting/infusions and level 3 your specialisation (which modifies your pet into a walking/floating cannon, mini iron golem, Iron man suit, warp aci, whatever).
I totally think we can have our cake and eat it too, WotC just needs to not be lazy about it.

[Anderlith]

So incorporate the pet into the primary part of the class, then differentiate it in the subclass. Say level 1 you get your pet, level 2 casting/infusions and level 3 your specialisation (which modifies your pet into a walking/floating cannon, mini iron golem, Iron man suit, warp aci, whatever).
I totally think we can have our cake and eat it too, WotC just needs to not be lazy about it.

It’s implemented in the best fashion, as a given class feature but specialized through subclasses. I will agree that the subclasses should split at level one, though. They should gain their spell lists & tools at level one.

[Rukelnikov]

It’s implemented in the best fashion, as a given class feature but specialized through subclasses. I will agree that the subclasses should split at level one, though. They should gain their spell lists & tools at level one.

That's too much front load, it's like asking for it to be a dip class

[ProsecutorGodot]

That's too much front load, it's like asking for it to be a dip class

I'll have to second this, we don't want a repeat of Hexblade. Level 3 subclass split is necessary, especially if they do decide to print Int to hit/damage.

[Mortis_Elrod]

I dont want the base class to be lessened to make room for a pet. Especially since they can always just make a subclass without one.

I like how it is, the subclasses have their own pet project they work on. Its how it should be IMO.

Level 3 split is also fine, makes it seem like there is some unifying basic tinkering everyone goes through before fixating on something. Making mobile armor that does the defending for you, animating information that gathers itself for you, an attempt on creating life, semi self automated mobile siege weapons, all of it coming from tinkering with magic, some favorite materials and tools, and discovery through experimentation.

[Bloodcloud]

Ok, I sorta have an idea. What about a choice between pet and subclass appropriate self buff?

Let's see, artillerist gets either a turret or a "wand-gun"

Battlesmith gets a robodog or a power armor.

Archivist gets a brain cap or the AI (should be a docent for eberron lore purpose, but watever)

Achemist gets a humonculous or decoction they drink to enhance their abilities. Could be used to turn into Mr Hyde or somesuch.

[jaappleton]

Ok, I sorta have an idea. What about a choice?

Let's see, artillerist gets either a turret or a "wand-gun"

Battlesmith gets a robodog or a power armor.

Archivist gets a brain cap or the AI (should be a docent for eberron lore purpose, but watever)

Achemist gets a humonculous or decoction they drink to enhance their abilities. Could be used to turn into Mr Hyde or somesuch.

Self buff versus pet.

I dig it. I'd be all for that!

[Spiritchaser]

I’d actually give battlesmith the choice of armor, shield or weapon, then have cyberkitty available to someone else

[jaappleton]

Anyone else thinking almost all Borderlands Vault Hunters can be made with the Artificer? Roland and Axton are Artillerists, FL4K is a Battle Smith, Maya and Lilith are Archivists, Mordecai is an Alchemist (using the homonculous as Bloodwing), etc.

[Quietus]

I was talking with my wife last night, and came up with this - break the class down in a similar way to the warlock. First level is your first split, you choose your main tool - a melee weapon, a ranged weapon (crossbow or gun, depending on flavour allowed) , or a wand. You get some kind of buff to that - things like the repeating infusion for the ranged weapon would be ideal. Maybe the wand user gets to cantrip twice once they get to extra attack, or maybe they're the only version that gets cantrips.

Oh, and every version gets mending automatically, because seriously? Come on.

Then at third level, you have been tinkering enough to build your support. This is where you get your iron guardian, your homonculus, your turrets, or your powered armor.

That way you can mix and match. A wand slinger with a robot pet? Check. Guns and powered armor (or wands) to make iron man? Check. Melee fighter with his turrets to support? Can do.

My only concern is stepping on the warlocks toes, but I think this plus the more standard half caster chassis would work fairly well.

[Man_Over_Game]

Ok, I sorta have an idea. What about a choice between pet and subclass appropriate self buff?

Let's see, artillerist gets either a turret or a "wand-gun"

Battlesmith gets a robodog or a power armor.

Archivist gets a brain cap or the AI (should be a docent for eberron lore purpose, but watever)

Achemist gets a humonculous or decoction they drink to enhance their abilities. Could be used to turn into Mr Hyde or somesuch.

Eh, I'd much rather have 4 good subclasses than 8 half-assed ones. I wouldn't mind if the Battlesmith got BOTH a power suit and a robodog, or the Alchemist gets a homunculus and a decoction.

The Hunter Ranger isn't necessarily a melee combatant or a ranged one, he can be both. The Battle Master doesn't have to be a captain or a hero, he can be both. There's nothing wrong with allowing people to do two things.

[Anderlith]

I gotta ask, what is with this obsession with guns & power armor? It has never been the flavor of Artificers to have either one, how do you even justify something like a power armor which takes up a body slot & attunement (I would hope) no other class works even close to that. No class features “signature weapons” in that manner. They are all structured in a way of “I am enhancing this weapon I wield through x means”

[Man_Over_Game]

I gotta ask, what is with this obsession with guns & power armor? It has never been the flavor of Artificers to have either one, how do you even justify something like a power armor which takes up a body slot & attunement (I would hope) no other class works even close to that. No class features “signature weapons” in that manner. They are all structured in a way of “I am enhancing this weapon I wield through x means”

That's exactly the reason why: Nobody else does it.

Nobody else relies on short rest spell slots or invocations, and yet we have the Warlock. Nobody else relies on spending spell slots to enhance attacks, and that's the Paladin's defining feature. The fact that it's an unused space in the system means that we should be looking into ways of filling that niche.

We make classes to make things stand out. I'd much rather see an Artificer with a battle suit than a giant beast pet thing, if only because that's what I envision when I think of an artificer.

I don't think it'd have to be a whole "suit", simply some kind of augment would be fine. Treat it like a Concentration spell you can cast, that must target yourself or an object you're holding, and you have Advantage on that Concentration check. Would make a cool infusion. Now, that COULD be a Shield of Faith defense field, or that COULD be a pseudo-image projector with Blur, or it could be Tenser's Transformation, the Battle Suit. There's a lot of things you could do with it.

[Rukelnikov]

I gotta ask, what is with this obsession with guns & power armor? It has never been the flavor of Artificers to have either one, how do you even justify something like a power armor which takes up a body slot & attunement (I would hope) no other class works even close to that. No class features “signature weapons” in that manner. They are all structured in a way of “I am enhancing this weapon I wield through x means”


That's exactly the reason why: Nobody else does it.

Nobody else relies on short rest spell slots or invocations, and yet we have the Warlock. Nobody else relies on spending spell slots to enhance attacks, and that's the Paladin's defining feature.

We make classes to make things stand out. I'd much rather see an Artificer with a battle suit than a giant beast pet thing, if only because that's what I envision when I think of an artificer.

I don't think it'd have to be a whole "suit", simply some kind of augment would be fine. Treat it like a Concentration spell you can cast, that must target yourself or an object you're holding, and you have Advantage on that Concentration check. Would make a cool infusion.

Not entirely true, the UA School of Invention wizard has exactly that, problem was it sucked

**************************
Arcanomechanical Armor
"Innovation is a dangerous practice, at least as far as members of this school practice it. As a shield against this risk, you have developed a suit of arcane armor.

Starting at 2nd level, you gain proficiency with light armor and gain a suit of arcanomechanical armor—a magic item that only you can attune to. While you are attuned to it and wearing it, it grants you resistance to force damage.

The armor is light armor and provides an AC of 12 + your Dexterity modifier. It weighs 8 pounds.

You can create a new suit of it at the end of a long rest by touching a nonmagical suit of studded leather armor, which magically transforms it. Doing so removes the magic from your previous arcanomechanical armor, turning it in to nonmagical studded leather."
**************************

You basically were spending an attunement slot for resistance against force damage.

The class itself was a "discount" Lore Wizard (this one was playable), but the main feature ended up becoming the Mizzium Armor, so this will never see print.

[Man_Over_Game]

Not entirely true, the UA School of Invention wizard has exactly that, problem was it sucked

**************************
Arcanomechanical Armor
"Innovation is a dangerous practice, at least as far as members of this school practice it. As a shield against this risk, you have developed a suit of arcane armor.

Starting at 2nd level, you gain proficiency with light armor and gain a suit of arcanomechanical armor—a magic item that only you can attune to. While you are attuned to it and wearing it, it grants you resistance to force damage.

The armor is light armor and provides an AC of 12 + your Dexterity modifier. It weighs 8 pounds.

You can create a new suit of it at the end of a long rest by touching a nonmagical suit of studded leather armor, which magically transforms it. Doing so removes the magic from your previous arcanomechanical armor, turning it in to nonmagical studded leather."
**************************

You basically were spending an attunement slot for resistance against force damage.

The class itself was a "discount" Lore Wizard (this one was playable), but the main feature ended up becoming the Mizzium Armor, so this will never see print.

Sure, but that's why we learn from the past. Just looking at the Artificer for an example, how many revisions has it probably gone through?

Like...5 at this point? Yet, we're pretty hyped, despite all those failures.

1 botched tech suit isn't so bad, I think.

[Appleheart]

I am guilty of thinking more classes should be built like the Warlock. One of my favorite Ranger Hombrews had features that essentially functioned like Invocations.

Totally agreed. A choice of patron, choice of pact, and choice of invocations creates a very modular and customizable class. I'd love to see more classes built on the same basic foundations.

[NatureKing]

Every class has its requirements. I don't see why this is any different.

[Man_Over_Game]

Totally agreed. A choice of patron, choice of pact, and choice of invocations creates a very modular and customizable class. I'd love to see more classes built on the same basic foundations.

Maybe the "specialization" of your artificer determines how your infusions and spells interact.

For example, the Alchemist specialization can cast one Concentration spell that lasts no longer than an hour. While under the effects of that spell, you automatically make any Concentration checks, and you cannot cast any spells that aren't cantrips.

The Artillerist specialization can cast one spell that has a duration of Instantaneous and deals damage. Both you and the Turret cast that spell, and attacks with that spell are made with Advantage. Or you can cast spells that target a single creature from your turret.

Stuff like that.

[Rukelnikov]

Sure, but that's why we learn from the past. Just looking at the Artificer for an example, how many revisions has it probably gone through?

Like...5 at this point? Yet, we're pretty hyped, despite all those failures.

1 botched tech suit isn't so bad, I think.

Definitely, just pointing out that there are classes that had an attunement requiring armor as a class feature. One DM of our party changed it in order to make it something playable, because the concept has always been awesome.

[Anderlith]

That's exactly the reason why: Nobody else does it.

Nobody else relies on short rest spell slots or invocations, and yet we have the Warlock. Nobody else relies on spending spell slots to enhance attacks, and that's the Paladin's defining feature. The fact that it's an unused space in the system means that we should be looking into ways of filling that niche.

We make classes to make things stand out. I'd much rather see an Artificer with a battle suit than a giant beast pet thing, if only because that's what I envision when I think of an artificer.

I don't think it'd have to be a whole "suit", simply some kind of augment would be fine. Treat it like a Concentration spell you can cast, that must target yourself or an object you're holding, and you have Advantage on that Concentration check. Would make a cool infusion. Now, that COULD be a Shield of Faith defense field, or that COULD be a pseudo-image projector with Blur, or it could be Tenser's Transformation, the Battle Suit. There's a lot of things you could do with it.


But that is highly restrictive play. That’s why cavaliers don’t have decent rules because many adventures go into dungeons & if that happens they are invalidated. If you want a mech suit class, instead of butchering an existing class, instead make your own mech suit class.

[Rukelnikov]

But that is highly restrictive play. That’s why cavaliers don’t have decent rules because many adventures go into dungeons & if that happens they are invalidated. If you want a mech suit class, instead of butchering an existing class, instead make your own mech suit class.

I'm generally against introducing full new classes unless the concept is impossible to make with the existing ones without massive rehaul.

Creating a class entirely for a battlesuit is no different than creating a class that revolves entirely around attacking with a greatsword.

As seen, a "battlesuit" can be a subclass of Wizard, (it was actually taken out and made into a proper item later, the Mizzium Armor, which is unusably OP IMO, but that's besides the point), and it surely could be an Artificer sub, since they already wear armor unlike Wizes, and are notorious tinkerers.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm generally against introducing full new classes unless the concept is impossible to make with the existing ones without massive rehaul.

Creating a class entirely for a battlesuit is no different than creating a class that revolves entirely around attacking with a greatsword.

As seen, a "battlesuit" can be a subclass of Wizard, (it was actually taken out and made into a proper item later, the Mizzium Armor, which is unusably OP IMO, but that's besides the point), and it surely could be an Artificer sub, since they already wear armor unlike Wizes, and are notorious tinkerers.

Indeed. That's the point I was trying to make. Heck, the Rogue requires multiple things (allies, specific weapons), and most people are fine with that.

The Cavalier is just a subclass, as is the Battlerager Barbarian. It doesn't have to be taken any further than that.

[MaxWilson]

Nobody else relies on short rest spell slots or invocations, and yet we have the Warlock.

Elemonk and Shadow Monk say hello.

[Ovarwa]

Elemonk and Shadow Monk say hello.

And the Moon Druid makes some snorty sounds.

[MaxWilson]

IMO the most powerful subclass in this UA is still the Artillerist (Sage background), as long as the DM doesn't negate the Crafting feature by making magical item formulas impossible to find. The ability to crank out 4x as many Wands as normal is powerful, especially for Wands that don't require attunement by a spellcaster. It's been noted before that an Evoker with a bandoleer of (Uncommon) Wands of Magic Missiles can crank out 68 HP of auto-hit force damage all day long with no risk of burning out any wands, but it's also true that an Artillerist who spends a month cranking out 8 Wands of Magic Missile for 800 gp can pass them out to eight hirelings or even (technically) animated skeletons, for 224 HP of auto-hit force damage once every two days, again with no chance of burning out a wand. That's a pretty good nova! I've never played Eberron but presumably mass-produced Wands of Magic Missile in the hands of grunts would have been a thing during their big war.

The ability to convert foresight + time + gold into power is the essence of good wizarding, and the Artificer isn't any better than the wizard at researching item formulas or acquiring the ingredients for them, but they are quite good at mass-producing certain of them. Artificers are the blue-collar, 20th-century assembly line wizards I guess, not the fancy Stanford PhD researcher wizards, but that's still good!

The other subclasses get to churn out cheap armor (Battle Smith) or cheap potions (Alchemist) or cheap scrolls (Archivist), but armor and consumables don't scale as well as wands do. A squad of 10 Guards wearing Scale Mail +1, pffft, who cares? A squad of 10 Guards with Wands of Magic Missiles, however, is a deadly threat.

Wands of Web (also 2/week) and Wands of Paralysis (2.5 weeks each) would also be good items to stock up on, especially for 1/3 casters and tieflings/elves/others who have only a handful of racial spells. An Elven Accuracy Sharpshooter Battlemaster doesn't normally have any use for his concentration, but if you give him a Wand of Web he can spam webs pretty freely against any good-sized group of monsters, because shooting them all up at tri-vantage for being restrained. Also note that unlike Hold Monster, Wand of Paralysis does not require concentration, so the party wizard can cast Wall of Force to quarantine the biggest threat and still use Wand of Paralysis for the mop-up.

I can see Artillerist 3/Evoker 17 as a thing.

[Trustypeaches]

Artillerist easily has the strongest crafting, yes.

Potions are strong, but creating a wand of fireballs or even a handful of wands of magic missiles is going to improve your party's damage output tremendously.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I have three artificers in one of my games that are all utilizing these new rules. One just started an Archivist//Abjuration Wizard (I have rules that allow for gestalting at the cost of slower progression), which strikes me as borderline obscene given the literal months worth of downtime he's already saved up.

I didn't stop him. I'm genuinely curious what he's going to manage, especially now that the richest player is bankrolling him. And I suppose I owe him a break after ruthlessly killing two previous characters in the same game.

The other two are an Alchemist and a Battle Smith. Between them, they're going to be outputting some pretty insane things.

[Foxhound438]

FYI the survey (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/survey-artificer-returns) is now up. Make sure to tell WotC what you think.

[Kane0]

Oh thanks for the heads up

[Garfunion]

FYI the survey (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/survey-artificer-returns) is now up. Make sure to tell WotC what you think.

Thank you for the heads up.

[Kane0]

Bump! If you had quibbles in the last 30 pages worth of Artificer discussion now is the time to make them known!

[AdAstra]

This has been a long thread, so forgive me if someone's brought this up before, but how would the Many-Handed Pouch work for something that entered it of its own accord? Say, a druid wildshaped into a rat. Would the druid be unable to leave unless someone pulled it out? If so, it seems like the MHP would serve as a foolproof prison for a Polymorphed creature, since unlike the Bag of Holding, there are no rules whatsoever regarding what can destroy it, or what happens when something does (and if the creature expands and the pouch bursts or something, does it just appear in the location of a random pouch?). If creatures can move into and out of the pouch by itself, wouldn't the MHP effectively serve as a 2-5 part teleportation/communication network, with up to 400 mile range (not exactly ideal, but possible if you place them all in a line) for Rathew for up to an hour, twice per short rest?

It doesn't really seem game-breaking per se, but it definitely changes a lot of the assumptions about things like communication and transport, so you better believe it went into my survey comments.

Come to think of it, if your DM allows the Conjure Woodland Beings Pixie thing, you could easily move your party anywhere undetected. Have a pixie turn invisible and carry a MHP into the Fortress of Doom, then have the rest of the pixies Polymorph you into ants or something, then you can all go through the MHP network, perhaps leaving one invisible Pixie behind until you've fully scouted the area allowing you to take six people (the two invisible pixies can't concentrate on Polymorph) basically anywhere not airtight and/or guarded by creatures with alternative senses.

[Kane0]

how would the Many-Handed Pouch work for something that entered it of its own accord?

there are no rules whatsoever regarding what can destroy it, or what happens when something does

If creatures can move into and out of the pouch by itself, wouldn't the MHP effectively serve as a 2-5 part teleportation/communication network

Come to think of it, if your DM allows the Conjure Woodland Beings Pixie thing, you could easily move your party anywhere undetected.

Ask your DM. For me it would be a toss up between you choose which pouch to exit and you exit from a random pouch

Again you'd have to ask your DM. I could see rules much like Bag of Holding being applied here

The Archivist gets that explicitly actually, telepathy using infused items even across planes

Well, that is arguably the spirit of the Artificer.

[MaxWilson]

Ask your DM. For me it would be a toss up between you choose which pouch to exit and you exit from a random pouch

In practice there's no real difference--either way you can choose which pouch you'll eventually wind up at.

[FēlīxPersōnārum]

Thank you for a critique. You make many points, so I'm going to only address certain ones.
Thank you for this response; saves me the trouble of writing up many of the same things.

Anyway, I am somewhat unsure of the etiquette here: is it reasonable to ask for build advice here, or should I start my own thread? I ask because I am quite interested in a throwing-focused character, taking advantage of the Returning infusion, but aside from, ya know, taking the Returning infusion, I am not sure how best to do it. This would be for a custom setting without any +2 Int racial options; I was looking at a +2 Dex, +1 Int race with 35’ speed and 60’ Darkvision, Stealth and Insight proficiency, and identify/short rest and (at 3rd) see invisibility/long rest (aside from races, and deities, nothing else about the setting is markedly different). The actual parameters of the game beyond that are still up in the air—there may not even necessarily be a game, to be honest—but I prefer a character that is playable from 1st to 20th anyway.

I’m thinking a kind of collector of ancient trinkets and tools, always with the right magical tool for the job. Kind of sounds like an archivist, but if I’m throwing daggers or whatever and not using Information Overload it feels as though I am kind of wasting the subclass. Then again, pretty much all of the subclasses have that problem, barring the battle smith. (Which maybe means I should go with the battle smith, but then my Dexterity is wasted.)

[Anderlith]

Thank you for this response; saves me the trouble of writing up many of the same things.

Anyway, I am somewhat unsure of the etiquette here: is it reasonable to ask for build advice here, or should I start my own thread? I ask because I am quite interested in a throwing-focused character, taking advantage of the Returning infusion, but aside from, ya know, taking the Returning infusion, I am not sure how best to do it. This would be for a custom setting without any +2 Int racial options; I was looking at a +2 Dex, +1 Int race with 35’ speed and 60’ Darkvision, Stealth and Insight proficiency, and identify/short rest and (at 3rd) see invisibility/long rest (aside from races, and deities, nothing else about the setting is markedly different). The actual parameters of the game beyond that are still up in the air—there may not even necessarily be a game, to be honest—but I prefer a character that is playable from 1st to 20th anyway.

I’m thinking a kind of collector of ancient trinkets and tools, always with the right magical tool for the job. Kind of sounds like an archivist, but if I’m throwing daggers or whatever and not using Information Overload it feels as though I am kind of wasting the subclass. Then again, pretty much all of the subclasses have that problem, barring the battle smith. (Which maybe means I should go with the battle smith, but then my Dexterity is wasted.)

Alchemist with a Throwing Spear would be pretty powerful

[Damon_Tor]

I’m thinking a kind of collector of ancient trinkets and tools, always with the right magical tool for the job. Kind of sounds like an archivist, but if I’m throwing daggers or whatever and not using Information Overload it feels as though I am kind of wasting the subclass. Then again, pretty much all of the subclasses have that problem, barring the battle smith. (Which maybe means I should go with the battle smith, but then my Dexterity is wasted.)

It isn't wasted: an alchemist needs 14 dex to get the most out of his armor, your +2 means you only have to stick a 12 there.

[Dreadfull]

Well, this was a very long and interesting read. But since i just built an artificer it was worth it.
Anyway I don't think anyone has brought up the issue I have that made me start reading this thread.
What is the point of an archivist that can't learn new spells?
You can basically write scrolls like no other but only from this very limited list.
The flavor says

What are the best ways to store vast amounts of information? That question has occupied chroniclers and librarians for centuries. Scrolls and books were the finest information-storing methods for a long time, but the first Archivists imagined something greater: storing information in a real or an artificial mind. What library could match a mental archive capable of accessing information in seconds? As they work towards this goal, Archivists have become masters of storing knowledge and creating artificial intelligences fueled by magic. These techniques have yet to be perfected and institutionalized, and of all artificers, archivists are on the cutting edge of arcane science.

So basically they're archiving ALL THE KNOWLEDGE except actual spells? It makes no sense and it bothers me.
Adding full casting or the ability to learn new spells wouldn't fit balance though.
Would there be a way to fix this?

[Rukelnikov]

Well, this was a very long and interesting read. But since i just built an artificer it was worth it.
Anyway I don't think anyone has brought up the issue I have that made me start reading this thread.
What is the point of an archivist that can't learn new spells?
You can basically write scrolls like no other but only from this very limited list.
The flavor says


So basically they're archiving ALL THE KNOWLEDGE except actual spells? It makes no sense and it bothers me.
Adding full casting or the ability to learn new spells wouldn't fit balance though.
Would there be a way to fix this?

Maybe make it infusions with attunement, that way it makes you spend resources. I'd be very careful with access to out of list spells though.

[Damon_Tor]

Well, this was a very long and interesting read. But since i just built an artificer it was worth it.
Anyway I don't think anyone has brought up the issue I have that made me start reading this thread.
What is the point of an archivist that can't learn new spells?
You can basically write scrolls like no other but only from this very limited list.
The flavor says


So basically they're archiving ALL THE KNOWLEDGE except actual spells? It makes no sense and it bothers me.
Adding full casting or the ability to learn new spells wouldn't fit balance though.
Would there be a way to fix this?

Many have suggested that the Artificer lacking Use Magic Item is a major oversight, and I agree. Among other things, this ability would allow them to use scrolls of spells from outside their class list. From there it's a simple matter to allow Archivists in particular to copy a spell scroll, regardless of whether or not the spell in question is on the Artificer list.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: The artificer goes back to his dead thread.