(3.5) Can dragons swap out spells?

[Biggus]

Under spells in the True Dragons entry of the MM it says

"A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level indicated in its variety description"

Under spells in the Sorcerer entry in the PHB it says

"Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows"

Can dragons swap out old spells for new ones as they go up caster levels? I know they always have an odd-numbered caster level at any given age category, but logically they must pass through the even-numbered ones on the way.

My feeling is that they probably can't learn new spells this way, but I can't find a definitive answer anywhere. Does anyone know if there's an official answer to this? If not, would you allow it?

[Gallowglass]

Under spells in the True Dragons entry of the MM it says

"A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level indicated in its variety description"

Under spells in the Sorcerer entry in the PHB it says

"Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows"

Can dragons swap out old spells for new ones as they go up caster levels? I know they always have an odd-numbered caster level at any given age category, but logically they must pass through the even-numbered ones on the way.

My feeling is that they probably can't learn new spells this way, but I can't find a definitive answer anywhere. Does anyone know if there's an official answer to this? If not, would you allow it?

Are you a player, playing a dragon? If so your spells go up based on your character level.

Are you a DM, making a dragon? Then why are you bothering? You are making it at whatever HD you are making it and give it whatever spells you deem it would have at that level?

If this is a pure theorycraft question then I would say "no" because the dragon isn't actually a 7th level sorcerer or 11th level sorcerer its just "casting spells as" a nth level sorcerer. So they aren't actually a sorcerer of n level, just have that many spells.

[flappeercraft]

Casting as a sorcerer and gaining their class feature that allows for spell swap is completely separate so no. However, the DM may rule otherwise if they so desire. Although there is the spell Dragonblood Spell-Pact from Dragons of Faerun which allows dragonblooded creatures to trade spells with one another, however, it has an xp cost.

[Biggus]

Are you a DM, making a dragon? Then why are you bothering? You are making it at whatever HD you are making it and give it whatever spells you deem it would have at that level?


It was mentioned in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?587956-Cookie-Cutter-Dragon-build) where gogogome said "afaik dragons can't retrain spells since they don't "level up"", and it made me wonder, can they? And I discovered there didn't seem to be an answer to that anywhere.

I'm primarily interested as a DM, because there are certain spells such as Mage Armor/ Greater Mage Armor and Greater Resistance/ Superior Resistance where the lower-level one is very useful, but you'd want to upgrade to the higher-level one where it becomes available.

I don't want to just say "they don't have the lower-level spell on their spell list, because it wouldn't be any use to them any more", it feels like cheating to me.


Casting as a sorcerer and gaining their class feature that allows for spell swap is completely separate so no.

It's not listed as a separate class feature for Sorcerers, it's listed under the heading of "spells" in their PHB entry, and the Dragon MM entry says "A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer".

As I said, my feeling is that they probably don't get to swap out spells, but there is an argument to be made that by RAW they do.

[heavyfuel]

I disagree with the previous posters.

What does it mean to cast a spell as a actual Sorcerer (aka, not a Dragon)? Let's make a list:

It means you need Cha = 10+spell level;
It means your Cha mod is used to calculate the DC;
It means you get bonus spells depending on your Cha;
It means you use Cha for any specific effect that calls for you to add an ability score akin to Grasping Hand;
It means you know a number spells as according to the table;
It means you get to cast a number of spells per day as according to the table;
It means you can cast these spells spontaneously;
It means you get to trade your spells known every now and then.

Now, the Dragon clearly gets to do the first 7 things on the list. Why not the 8th? What is so special about this 8th point that makes it unattainable by Dragons?

I'd say Dragons most definitely get to swap the spells. It's even a paragraph under the "Spells" class feature of Sorcerers.


Are you a player, playing a dragon? If so your spells go up based on your character level.

Are you a DM, making a dragon? Then why are you bothering? You are making it at whatever HD you are making it and give it whatever spells you deem it would have at that level?


Completely agree here



Casting as a sorcerer and gaining their class feature that allows for spell swap is completely separate so no. However, the DM may rule otherwise if they so desire.

How can you say it so surely? The RAW is at the very least ambiguous here. And of course the DM may rule otherwise. DMs can always rule otherwise.

[Covenant12]

If PHBII retraining is on the table, I don't see why dragons couldn't.

If you had a player dragon, painfully eating the high LA, you could make a savage species progression for it. Each actual HD or level that has alternate improvements would be the same as a "level" in that regards. If a human sorcerer can retrain every level, a dragon could retrain every HD, at minimum.

Yes, age categories are discrete jumps for dragons. Some gain size categories, and presumably not in a 24 hour or less process. I consider that a simplified version of what's happening. The detailed one (savage species progression) would certainly allow retraining.

If that doesn't sway you, take gold from the dragon and say he paid for psychic reformation. That is completely RAW legal.

[heavyfuel]

If PHBII retraining is on the table, I don't see why dragons couldn't.

I'd like to point out that retraining rules are just that. Rules. They're not "alternative rules" or "optional rules" or anything of the sort.

Of course, as I just said on my previous post, DMs may rule otherwise - because they can always do that.

[flappeercraft]

It's not listed as a separate class feature for Sorcerers, it's listed under the heading of "spells" in their PHB entry, and the Dragon MM entry says "A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer".

As I said, my feeling is that they probably don't get to swap out spells, but there is an argument to be made that by RAW they do.

Huh, I could've sworn it was a separate class feature. I must have remembered wrong. In that case I'm not entirely sure tbh.

[Biggus]

I'd like to point out that retraining rules are just that. Rules. They're not "alternative rules" or "optional rules" or anything of the sort.

Of course, as I just said on my previous post, DMs may rule otherwise - because they can always do that.


Well...that's a slightly grey area. Using the primary source rule, the PHB has precedence over all other sources for character creation, unless the other source specifically says it supercedes it. The PHB2 doesn't say that, and although it doesn't describe the retraining rules as optional in so many words, the language it uses in the chapter introduction like "give them a try" suggests they're not set in stone.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Unless a dragon is actually gaining age categories during play, I don't see how it matters.

You want to build an adult dragon with Mage Armor? Go ahead. You want to build an ancient dragon with Greater Mage Armor? Say that one never took Mage Armor in the first place.

[Kaleph]

I second Heavyfuel's point; the rules for the sorcerer's spells say (emphasis mine):

"At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells"
"Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows"

So, in principle, a dragon should have the same "privilege" to swap known spells as he has to learn new spells.

[arkangel111]

spell lists on monster entries are just a quick reference for DM's. An easy way for the DM to say hey look x monster here, dang 20 HD as sorcerer? that's alot of spells to pick, can I just get a reference of what it might have? oh really thanks guys, your the best.
nowhere do I ever remember reading that every monster is exactly what the entry says it is, well generic monsters anyway. the monster manual is purely reference only. change as the campaign dictates.

[Crake]

I'd like to point out that retraining rules are just that. Rules. They're not "alternative rules" or "optional rules" or anything of the sort.

Of course, as I just said on my previous post, DMs may rule otherwise - because they can always do that.

Anything beyond the core rulebooks is optional by it's very nature.