Level 5 Wizard: How to Kill a Barbarian

[StevenC21]

Hello all! Before I get into the bulk of my post, I need to give some backstory.

I am the Dungeon Master of a small group of players. As I often do, I was talking about how much I love Wizards after our session, and how I think they are the best class.

One of my players thinks they suck, and that his Barbarian could easily defeat one. I know this sounds ridiculous, of course. I took him up on his offer. And now, I come to you all!

I need a level 5 Wizard who's only job is to kill that Barbarian! The foe in question is a level 5 Half-Orc Barbarian who has rolled max HP (Our wizard will get the same), landing him a total of 75 HP. As such, direct damage is off the table, though I do know that it's never really a good choice...

EVERYTHING first party (including Dragon Mag) is allowed without restriction. I want to show this kid just how insignificant his little axe swinger is...

My issue is that most of my builds come online at 6th level. As it is, I made one Human Wizard (6th level), who abused Lahm's Finger Darts (BoVD) for a guaranteed 18 DEX damage, no save, no attack roll. The issue is, again, he's level 6, and I need that 5th feat to grab Arcane Thesis: Lahm's Finger Darts.

So... does anyone here know a level 5 Wizard build that would be able to stomp over a level 5 Barbarian? If it was anything before this, I'd just load up on DC boosters and cast Sleep... but that only works up to 4 Hit Dice. This is a very inconvenient spot as it is.

So... any ideas?

Edit: We are starting at a distance of 100 feet. So Range: Close spells won't be optimal.

[weckar]

Open up with Deep Slumber or some other properly debilitating and long-duration effect (Hold Person)? You could even dagger him to death after that if you wanted to make the point that a single spell could defeat him.

I half suspect his Will save isn't that great anyway...

Alternatively, wait until he is a charge or less away, Mirror Image, then lay into him with defensively casting Touch Of Idiocy.

And that's all just PHB, mind you.

[RoboEmperor]

Hello all! Before I get into the bulk of my post, I need to give some backstory.

I am the Dungeon Master of a small group of players. As I often do, I was talking about how much I love Wizards after our session, and how I think they are the best class.

One of my players thinks they suck, and that his Barbarian could easily defeat one. I know this sounds ridiculous, of course. I took him up on his offer. And now, I come to you all!

I need a level 5 Wizard who's only job is to kill that Barbarian! The foe in question is a level 5 Half-Orc Barbarian who has rolled max HP (Our wizard will get the same), landing him a total of 75 HP. As such, direct damage is off the table, though I do know that it's never really a good choice...

EVERYTHING first party (including Dragon Mag) is allowed without restriction. I want to show this kid just how insignificant his little axe swinger is...

My issue is that most of my builds come online at 6th level. As it is, I made one Human Wizard (6th level), who abused Lahm's Finger Darts (BoVD) for a guaranteed 18 DEX damage, no save, no attack roll. The issue is, again, he's level 6, and I need that 5th feat to grab Arcane Thesis: Lahm's Finger Darts.

So... does anyone here know a level 5 Wizard build that would be able to stomp over a level 5 Barbarian? If it was anything before this, I'd just load up on DC boosters and cast Sleep... but that only works up to 4 Hit Dice. This is a very inconvenient spot as it is.

So... any ideas?

Edit: We are starting at a distance of 100 feet. So Range: Close spells won't be optimal.

Animate Weapon. (3rd level spell, Complete Mage, Duration:Concentration)

1. Buy/craft a Colossal Weapon
2. Cast Animate Weapon
3. Have the CR10 creature with 10 hardness grapple the Barbarian to death with its +49 grapple score.

[HouseRules]

Starting at 100 feet, the Barbarian needs to Jog 2 rounds to reach you assuming 40 feet land speed.

Thus, if the Barbarian would not run, then Wizard have 2 rounds of free attacks; 3 attacks if Wizard win initiative.

If the Barbarian runs towards the Wizard, then the Barbarian would travel 160 feet > 100 feet of distance and be next to the Wizard.
Thus, the Wizard has 1 attack, 2 attacks if Wizard win initiative.

[StevenC21]

I looked into Deep Slumber, but it is Range: Close, so I would need to wait until the Barbarian is dangerously close to use it...

However, he does have literally +1 to Will Saves, so I have a solid shot of killing him if I do that.

[Roninblack]

to build on what houserules said, any melee player worth his salt is going to charge you, getting a nice juicy charge attack on your squishy at that range, the first thing you want to do is make that impossible. At this level I doubt his barbarian can fly, but you should be able too, from 60 ft. in the air, you're untouchable.

[ViperMagnum357]

What does the Barbarian have for skills and gear? If all they have is a magic weapon and armor, options are wide open. If they invested in something different; like a bag of tricks, whip feather token, brooch of shielding, horn of fog, elemental gem...and that is just core for non-blasting stuff within their 9k expected wealth.

If all they are going to do is charge you, a single Grease spell has a fair chance of ending the encounter unless you royally mess up your plan. Something more complex needs to be tailored, within reason.

[magicalmagicman]

Animate Weapon. (3rd level spell, Complete Mage, Duration:Concentration)

1. Buy/craft a Colossal Weapon
2. Cast Animate Weapon
3. Have the CR10 creature with 10 hardness grapple the Barbarian to death with its +49 grapple score.

This wizard can stomp all over the Barbarian. Literally. Animated Objects can get Trample.

[StevenC21]

He has nothing but a +1 Greataxe.

[weckar]

I looked into Deep Slumber, but it is Range: Close, so I would need to wait until the Barbarian is dangerously close to use it...

However, he does have literally +1 to Will Saves, so I have a solid shot of killing him if I do that.I made some edits, but the skinny is to use Hold Person or combine Mirror Image with anything that needs a touch attack. Touch of idiocy is great to bring his Will down even further.

[StevenC21]

Touch of Idiocy is good, but I'm afraid to get into melee range.

I like the Animated Object idea, but I really am hoping to get a one-shot scenario. I really want to show him just how ridiculous optimized spellcasters can be.

[JNAProductions]

This sounds like a bad idea.

Not that a Wizard can't trounce a Barbarian, built and played right, but this is very directly competitive against another player. You're basically whipping out your metaphorical genitals and saying "Mine's bigger than yours!"

Especially since you're the DM. This just sounds like it bodes ill for your gaming group.

[StevenC21]

I understand your concern completely.

I made sure this was okay with him first.

He is just very overconfident... I'm afraid that it will get his character killed in game, so I'm going to show him out of game how fragile a PC can be.

[RoboEmperor]

Touch of Idiocy is good, but I'm afraid to get into melee range.

I like the Animated Object idea, but I really am hoping to get a one-shot scenario. I really want to show him just how ridiculous optimized spellcasters can be.

Trust me. Him doing literally 0 damage to 10 hardness, and literally being unable to do anything because of being grappled by the +49 grapple check colossal creature with 30ft reach is gonna leave a bigger impression of how worthless his class is compared to wizards than one shotting him with a save-or-die.

I repeat: GRAPPLE HIM. Not attack, GRAPPLE. Rules compendium says you can make as many grapple checks as you have iterative attacks due to base attack, so the Colossal Animated Object can do 4 grapple checks each doing 2d6+9 damage for a total of 64 damage in one round. 48 if you decide to use one of those actions to pin.

There's also going Neraphim with Alter Self and Assume Supernatural Ability:Animate Objects and polymorphing into a Ravid and using its at-will CL20 animate objects aura to bring a Gargantuan Animated Object to life. A little weaker than Animate Weapon.

[Crichton]

Nothing but a greataxe? At all?

Yeah,
Step 1: Fly.
Step 2: Literally anything you want, since he can no longer reach you, at all. Lots of good suggestions already, but once you're impervious to anything he does, you could literally kill him with cantrips.

[MisterKaws]

It's a Barbarian. Just fly 20' off the ground and spam spells until he dies.

Other than that, you could probably stop him completely with Grease and Web, then Deep Slumber or Stinking Cloud away. If one save fails you pull your crossbow and just shoot till death.

Edit: Unseen Seer'd

[weckar]

Well, thinking about it, ultimately he is going to want to charge at you. If you win initiative and Fly... well, good luck to him. Otherwise, grease or literally any semi-permanent area affect is going to prevent it. Shame you're a level short of Wall of Fire.
Of course, any effect modified with Fell Drain or something like it is going to quickly wear him down. Fell Drain Magic Missiles are always a favorite as you should have plenty of spell slots to kill him without ever making a roll.

[Anthrowhale]

Improved Initiative + Nerveskitter = win initiative.

Spectral Hand + Sudden Maximize Shivering Touch = paralyzed vs. Dex 18 or less.

Fell Frighten Magic Missile + Fell Frighten Magic Missile = escalation to fear.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Fighter feat ACF (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) (UA): Get Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll, and Point-Blank Shot at Wizard 5.
Be a Focused Specialist (CM) in Enchantment, of all things. Get a hummingbird familiar, from some issue of Dragon magazine.

Earth Devotion reserve feat: You can create a rather large area of difficult terrain as an immediate action. Barbarian declares a charge and starts moving at double speed, with a stomp of your foot you create difficult terrain under him and directly in his path. His charge automatically fails because you can't charge on difficult terrain, and he'll need to make two Balance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/balance.htm) checks at a -5 for accelerated movement at double speed. If he fails even one he can't move any further, if he fails either check by 5 or more he falls prone.

Other feats should be Metamagic School Focus: Enchantment, and Split Ray. Your spell of choice is Ray of Stupidity (SC), fill all three of your specialist 3rd level slots with Split Ray versions of those.

Your Int should be at least 16, your bonus 3rd level spell slot is Fly. Other spells prepared should include Nerveskitter.

A few days ago you cast Shrink Item on a pool of lava to turn it into a small cloth patch.

Tactics:
Start of combat: Cast Nerveskitter and roll initiative (Nerveskitter +5, Improved Initiative +4, Hummingbird +4, Dex bonus).
1st Round: Cast Fly, fly up 60 feet.
2nd Round: Fly within 30 ft. of the Barbarian and cast a Split Ray Ray of Stupidity on him, rolling two attacks (+1 for Point Blank Shot) and dealing 1d4+1 Int damage per hit (possibly with another +1 hp psychic damage from Point-Blank Shot).
3rd Round: Continue casting Split Ray Ray of Stupidity until he's at Int 0 and disabled.

Once he's disabled, throw the patch of cloth on him and speak the word to unshrink it. He's completely submerged in lava, taking 20d6 fire damage per round indefinitely. His charred remains will be encased in stone when the lava cools.

[Vizzerdrix]

Improved init and a hummingbird familiar with nerveskitter. Once you have init beat you can go in to spells.

I would focus on using stat damage and negative levels. Deep slumber and a shapesand cage works well too.

[Kayblis]

I'm assuming you guys have a healthy relationship and see no harm in dissing each other from time to time.

A simple matter of communication:
1 - On first round you cast Fly and get up in the air. State how all his melee prowess, feats and abilities are useless at this point.
2 - On the second round, you cast Invisibility. State how this is another thing he has no way to deal with.
3 - From then on, drop your debuffs. Kelgore's Grave Mist makes him fatigued, no save. Ray of Enfeeblement drops his precious Strength with no save too. If you're feeling lucky, Glitterdust drives the point home nicely, as does Reduce Person and Cloud of Bewilderment.
4 - End this by summoning a creature or two to fight his broken self. At this point you state how you've used no class features or feats besides spellcasting, and could have ended this long ago with negative levels(Fell Drain and Sound Snap/1st-level spells while flying). This is bound to getting the point across - you've used the "real battle" to showcase your arsenal and haven't even gone into cheese yet.

Edit: Others have posted ways to optimize initiative. I like Biffon's way to high Init the most because it's all simple feats and abilities anyone would pick, nothing too specialized.

[ExLibrisMortis]

An elan wizard could alter self into a grell, which can fly and has 10 tentacle attacks with reach. That way, you can save your third-level slots for attacks, or whatever you like, really. I like bite of the were-rat, which will get you (assuming grell form) a Dexterity score of 20 and Weapon Finesse. Individual tentacle attacks don't hit much, but it's still 1d4+1 damage with fairly decent to-hit.

Similar strategies exist for outsider wizards (lesser planetouched with the Otherworldly feat), giant wizards (LA buyoff + primordial half-giant), magical beast wizards, etcetera.

[Lorddenorstrus]

You have so many options available you could make multiple wizards and just whip him back to back honestly. Each with varying level of cheese. Personally I'm a fan of Kelgores Gravemist, no save SR only, instantly fatigued and damage to boot. Which prevents charge and gimps him off the bat. He's limited base movement speed a round. Which you can freaking kite out and poke him out easily enough.

As for getting it off, Nerveskitter, Familiars etc there's a ton of ways to boost Init past the point of you going 2nd being a possibility.
Mind, that's one option. There's others, draining stats, knocking them out and just killing them. You have to be a bad wizard to lose to a barbarian 1v1 in the conditions you've laid out.

Mind this is the tamer side of things, you could also do an Elven generalist Domain wizard, loop into 9th lvl spells from lvl 2. <_< (The legality of that is oft debated but I'm of the opinion it works.) There's boundless options

[denthor]

Round 1 invisibility 2nd

Round 2 shield 1st

Round 3 mage armor 1st

All while moving in for a 35 foot range spell ray of enfeeblement. 1d6+2 for being 5th level. Take away his ability to hit.

Assume 18 intelligence.

Zero level

Flare -1 to hit (fort) save
Touch of fatigue


3 1st
Shield
Mage armor
Ray of enfeeblement

3 2nd
Blindness/ deafness. Fort save 100 +10 feet per level 150 foot range. Fail that your invisible by not being able to be seen. He must choose a square swing if he hits the wrong square automatic miss. 50/50 if correct. No direct damage. Take this threee times


3rd 2 spells
Slow.
Fly

[Godskook]

Assuming the arena is such that he cannot run or charge into melee before your first turn nor force it due to mere geography:

Round 1: Cast Expeditious Retreat, and move 60'. He's now at best, 5' away from melee.
Round 2-4: Proceed to run away until you create a respectable gap(165'+ feet on your turn). Since you have 60' vs. his 40', this is trivial. Cast Bull's Strength if not up.
Round 5: Ready an action to cast hold person as soon as he hits 120'. Due to readied action rules, initiative order doesn't change.
Round 6: If he's paralyzed, charge with your scythe. If he's not, go to Round 2.
Round 7: You're in melee, he's paralyzed, and you're holding a scythe. Coup de grace.
Round 8: You're in melee, he's paralyzed, and you're holding a scythe. Coup de grace.
Round 9: You're in melee, he's paralyzed, and you're holding a scythe. Coup de grace.

3 Coup de graces is (2d4+3)x4x4 damage, or ~96 damage. He's dead. As an insult to injury, he needs to make a DC 10 + damage-dealt off each coup de grace or die instantly; that's DC 42, Fort(Good luck!).

Assumptions or build choices:
-Arena allows you to kite for over 300+ feet.
-You get a turn before he's in melee
-You know Expeditious Retreat
-He can't match your 240' run speed
-He can't hit targets outside melee range
-You know Bull's Strength
-You know Hold Person and prepared multiple copies
-You own a Scythe
-You have 10 Str and 13+ Int

That's it. Doable on the Elite Array, and the most powerful thing you used was a level 3 spell from the SRD. The point here isn't to optimize and show him "just how powerful wizards can be", it's to anti-optimize, and show him just how powerful a baseline unoptimized wizard is, as a starting point.

[Troacctid]

If I were preparing a barbarian for this, I would be looking at something like:

Raptoran Barbarian 5

Ferocity, Serpent Totem

1. Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment: Patience domain)
3. Air Heritage, Improved Grapple (B)
5. Improved Initiative (B)

70-foot fly speed makes it hard for the wizard to kite and allows a charge in the first round. Patience domain shakes off the wizard's first big hit; hopefully they won't have a second one prepared. Improved Initiative and Ferocity give a decent chance of going first. Grapple the wizard to prevent casting, and if they don't have Abrupt Jaunt to escape, it's hopefully over from there. If they do have a way to counter the grapple, you'll have to trade blows and hope that your attacks are enough. Weapon familiarity with footbows is also an underrated benefit of raptoran, since you can add 1.5x Strength to the damage; readying an action to disrupt spellcasting with footbow attacks could be a viable backup plan.

[Eldariel]

Let's see... If you happen to have Augment Summoning:

R1: Readied Grease to him moving
R2: Summon Skeletal Owlbear
R3: Summon another Skeletal Owlbear
R4: Summon another Skeletal Owlbear


Honestly, it's not the most efficient means of going about it but getting beaten to death by 2nd level summons ought to drive the point home. Save your 3rd level spells for when you actually need them. Of course, yeah, just casting Glitterdust and doing whatever might work. Or Fly and whatever or Invisibility and whatever. Alternatively, just have pre-shrunk boulders/carriages/boats/whatever and throw them at it until it dies. Or use an Explosive Runes bomb.

EDIT: One option is of course just Fly/whatever > Spectral Hand > Shivering Touch. Two-three applications ought to do the trick even for an 18 Dex Barbie. Of course, if you metamagic it up or whatever, it's easy enough but I think you don't really need to use feats in this particular case. That would be an overkill.

[Malphegor]

level 5... that's 3rd level spells max, right? Groovy.

Great Thunderclap (PHB2) Fort save or be deafened, also Reflex save or fall prone. (Barbarians seem to have decent fort and reflex from what I can see, but this gives 2 in one spell so I recommend it.)

Flashburst (SpC) Will save or be blind, if you make the save be dazzled.

Grease his weapon if he has the impudence to raise it against you.

Now that he's hopefully blind, deaf, on the floor, and his weapons removed, proceed to cast Power Word Pain, and Phantasmal Assailant until he surrenders or dies of either HP loss or more likely wisdom and dex damage (though I'm not wholly sure if phantasmal assailant works if the target cannot see/hear the illusion. Hmm.... wait, it works on their mind! So that's fun! So, while gripped in agony from one spell, they start seeing their worst nightmare in their mind)

[Anthrowhale]

If I were preparing a barbarian for this, I would be looking at something like:

Raptoran Barbarian 5

Ferocity, Serpent Totem

1. Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment: Patience domain)
3. Air Heritage, Improved Grapple (B)
5. Improved Initiative (B)

70-foot fly speed makes it hard for the wizard to kite and allows a charge in the first round. Patience domain shakes off the wizard's first big hit; hopefully they won't have a second one prepared. Improved Initiative and Ferocity give a decent chance of going first. Grapple the wizard to prevent casting, and if they don't have Abrupt Jaunt to escape, it's hopefully over from there. If they do have a way to counter the grapple, you'll have to trade blows and hope that your attacks are enough. Weapon familiarity with footbows is also an underrated benefit of raptoran, since you can add 1.5x Strength to the damage; readying an action to disrupt spellcasting with footbow attacks could be a viable backup plan.

This seems quite good. There's a bug with Catalogues of Enlightenment prereqs? Disregarding that though, the ability to fly 70' is exceptional and readied actions to shoot a bow on cast are certainly effective.

An alternative I've run into is a Tiefling Barbarian 4 who uses spellcasting services to PAO[Horned Devil]. Fly 50', Str 31, Dex 25, Con 25 makes both charge and snipe feasible.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I just realized (rather late) that you can fatigue the barbarian simply by waiting, and then exhaust them with kelgore's grave mist.

So...
Turn 0: cast nerveskitter.
Turn 1: cast alter self or fly, fly up.
Turn 2: cast invisibility, fly up.
Turns 3-10: wait for Rage to end, move into Medium range.
Turn 11: cast kelgore's grave mist.

At this point, the barbarian is exhausted and moving at half speed (I assume they also can't run or charge, as with fatigue). Kill them with a crossbow, or something.

If the barbarian has multiple uses of Rage, you'll need to wait a bit longer, but that's fine.

[Telonius]

I just realized (rather late) that you can fatigue the barbarian simply by waiting, and then exhaust them with kelgore's grave mist.

So...
Turn 0: cast nerveskitter.
Turn 1: cast alter self or fly, fly up.
Turn 2: cast invisibility, fly up.
Turns 3-10: wait for Rage to end, move into Medium range.
Turn 11: cast kelgore's grave mist.

At this point, the barbarian is exhausted and moving at half speed (I assume they also can't run or charge, as with fatigue). Kill them with a crossbow, or something.

If the barbarian has multiple uses of Rage, you'll need to wait a bit longer, but that's fine.

Rage is only once per encounter (regardless of how many uses per day you have), so no worries there.

[emeraldstreak]

Deep Slumber is what newbie wizards try to cast at arenas. They die, but on the flip side they learn what its casting duration is.

[jintoya]

I ran one of these experiments with a player who thought warlocks could not be strong combatants, flight can make a big difference, he was using a necromancer.

[Jack_Simth]

If you want to drive the point home, do it Core-only. Fly, and a wand of Magic Missile.

[Telonius]

If you want to drive the point home, do it Core-only. Fly, and a wand of Magic Missile.

You could use a Tanglefoot Bag to add insult to injury.

[Troacctid]

This seems quite good. There's a bug with Catalogues of Enlightenment prereqs? Disregarding that though, the ability to fly 70' is exceptional and readied actions to shoot a bow on cast are certainly effective.
The Sandstorm version of Touchstone requires 8 ranks or a touchstone key worth 250 gp. I'd go with the key. (Probably build it into the weapon.)

[Anthrowhale]

The Sandstorm version of Touchstone requires 8 ranks or a touchstone key worth 250 gp. I'd go with the key. (Probably build it into the weapon.)

A level 1 Barbarian can't afford that.

However, you could swap with Air Heritage to get it at level 3. (Air Heritage has no prereqs but remains inoperative until you get flight at level 5.)

But, can you use a planar site with the "Touchstone" feat? Or do you need the "Planar Touchstone" feat for that?

[Kyutaru]

Whatever you do, don't use Fly.

The goal here is crush the barbarian not simply in body but also in spirit. To break him, he has to think the contest was fair. Flying out of reach like a coward will not sit well with him and the player may accuse you of resorting to cheats. Stay on the ground, preferably in close range, and beat him fair and square like the cosmological commander you are. With spells that enable, disable, and fable his label. You're not the weak one here. Prove it.

[RoboEmperor]

Whatever you do, don't use Fly.

The goal here is crush the barbarian not simply in body but also in spirit. To break him, he has to think the contest was fair. Flying out of reach like a coward will not sit well with him and the player may accuse you of resorting to cheats. Stay on the ground, preferably in close range, and beat him fair and square like the cosmological commander you are. With spells that enable, disable, and fable his label. You're not the weak one here. Prove it.

Do all of them. First with the Animated Object. Then with fly. Then with invisibility. Then with Web, Glitterdust, etc. Then by Gishing. Then by readying a 5ft step with a longspear.

[Troacctid]

A level 1 Barbarian can't afford that.

However, you could swap with Air Heritage to get it at level 3. (Air Heritage has no prereqs but remains inoperative until you get flight at level 5.)

But, can you use a planar site with the "Touchstone" feat? Or do you need the "Planar Touchstone" feat for that?
You're starting at level 5, so money isn't an issue.

Touchstone and Planar Touchstone are explicitly cross-compatible, so that's not an issue either.

I did forget that barbarians don't have Balance as a class skill, so the Twisted Charge skill trick is off the table, which is annoying, since it would have been handy for enabling dives and/or preventing Abrupt Jaunt from breaking the straight line of a charge.

[SirNibbles]

Fly and Invisibility are pretty much instant wins. You can also go Sleet Storm into Kelgore's Grave Mist (Player's Handbook II, page 116). He can't see, can barely move, is Fatigued, and takes damage every round.

[Mike Miller]

Nothing but a greataxe? At all?

Yeah,
Step 1: Fly.
Step 2: Literally anything you want, since he can no longer reach you, at all. Lots of good suggestions already, but once you're impervious to anything he does, you could literally kill him with cantrips.

This is what I was going to say. Once you are airborne, there is nothing he can do without a ranged weapon.

[Troacctid]

I dunno, he could have taken Animal Devotion.

[Crichton]

I dunno, he could have taken Animal Devotion.

Starting at the stated 100ft away, your 60ft fly speed is still going to be able to stay out of range of his 40ft (as Overland Flight).

[Anthrowhale]

Touchstone and Planar Touchstone are explicitly cross-compatible, so that's not an issue either.

Good, thanks.

[SirNibbles]

If you really want to rub it in, you can use level 0 and level 1 spells and no Metamagic:

Caltrops (Spell Compendium, page 42) halves the Barbarian's movement for 24 hours. Just ready an action to cast it, probably vs a charge. Your CL will allow you to affect 4 squares, resulting in a good chance of the Barbarian being damaged (and thus slowed/stopped).

If you want to be really cheap, take Bane Magic (Humanoid: Orc) from Heroes of Horror, page 119. Now all your spells deal an extra 2d6. That's 2d6+1 from Caltrops, and 2d6+1/round from Thunderhead (Spell Compendium, page 219), and 3d6/round from Grave Mist.

There are so many options that lead to victory, it's all about what flavour you want.

[Elkad]

He has nothing but a +1 Greataxe.

Flying feels cheesy. Lets stay on the ground.

Buffs: Cast Phantom Steed (Move 100' at CL5)

That's all you need.

Ride in circles around him (double-moving at -4 to hit if necessary) and plink him to death with your crossbow. Even if you need a nat20 to hit him, you'll win eventually. You've got 3000 rounds to manage it. Bring lots of quarrels.

Optimized mode. Be an elf and use a longbow.

[Vizzerdrix]

Flying feels cheesy. Lets stay on the ground.

Buffs: Cast Phantom Steed (Move 100' at CL5)

That's all you need.

Ride in circles around him (double-moving at -4 to hit if necessary) and plink him to death with your crossbow. Even if you need a nat20 to hit him, you'll win eventually. You've got 3000 rounds to manage it. Bring lots of quarrels.

Optimized mode. Be an elf and use a longbow.

Or a halfling with a sling.

[denthor]

Flying feels cheesy. Lets stay on the ground.

Buffs: Cast Phantom Steed (Move 100' at CL5)

That's all you need.

Ride in circles around him (double-moving at -4 to hit if necessary) and plink him to death with your crossbow. Even if you need a nat20 to hit him, you'll win eventually. You've got 3000 rounds to manage it. Bring lots of quarrels.

Optimized mode. Be an elf and use a longbow.


Isn't that spell a 10 minute casting time?

[Elkad]

Isn't that spell a 10 minute casting time?

Yes, you need time to buff to cast it.

Which you may not get, but I still thought it was worth mentioning for the hilarity factor. It's the least wizard way I could think of to win. A single spell that has no effect on the target.


Next mission. Win the fight with your familiar only. Would be easy with a flying outsider at L7, but at L5 I'm not seeing an easy way.

[Troacctid]

Starting at the stated 100ft away, your 60ft fly speed is still going to be able to stay out of range of his 40ft (as Overland Flight).
45 ft, not 40, and he's probably charging while you're single-moving, so it's not that simple.

[Crake]

Invisible spell, fell drain, arcane thesis magic missile, improved init and a hummingbird familiar. Cast fly round 1, next 5 rounds hit him with those level 1 fell drain magic missiles, round 6 he dies. Letting him raise as a wight 24 hours later and command undeading him is optional. If you want to speed things up, add in twin spell and sanctum spell, and use the sonic snap cantrip for level 2 spell slot double negative levels each round.

[Troacctid]

Arcane Thesis requires level 6.

[Crake]

Arcane Thesis requires level 6.

Ah right, so it does, i thought it was level 5

[Particle_Man]

All the prep for winning init is good but you might need a contingency plan in case you lose initiative anyhow.

[jintoya]

All the prep for winning init is good but you might need a contingency plan in case you lose initiative anyhow.

Never rule out that he might roll a nat and/or you roll a 1, are there any items you can afford that will give you a mulligan on the roll, creates fast difficult terrain or just nullifes charges in another way?

[Akkristor]

Lets start off with our worst-case scenario. If we can find a win there, we can find a win anywhere.

What is our Worst-case scenario?
Barbarian wins initiative
Barbarian gets into melee range and attacks.
Barbarian hits, crits, confirms, and rolls max damage.

Assuming 22 STR (18 base +4 rage) and full power attack, we're looking at:
Greataxe +7 (+1 Enhancement, +6 Strength, +5 BAB, -5 Power Attack) melee, 1d12 + 20 (+6 Str, +3 two-handed (1/2 STR), +1 enhancement, +10 Power Attack)
Max damage is thus 32, which is 96 on a x3 Crit.

So, the Barbarian is capable of slicing the wizard in half on round one if he gets lucky.

How do we prevent this from happening?






Edit: Also, what kind of prep time do we have? Do we start the battle with buffs or no? Hour/lvl+ buffs only?

[Eldariel]

Lets start off with our worst-case scenario. If we can find a win there, we can find a win anywhere.

What is our Worst-case scenario?
Barbarian wins initiative
Barbarian gets into melee range and attacks.
Barbarian hits, crits, confirms, and rolls max damage.

Assuming 22 STR (18 base +4 rage) and full power attack, we're looking at:
Greataxe +7 (+1 Enhancement, +6 Strength, +5 BAB, -5 Power Attack) melee, 1d12 + 20 (+6 Str, +3 two-handed (1/2 STR), +1 enhancement, +10 Power Attack)
Max damage is thus 32, which is 96 on a x3 Crit.

So, the Barbarian is capable of slicing the wizard in half on round one if he gets lucky.

How do we prevent this from happening?

Well, you don't have access to most defenses before you can act. Failproofing Initiative would be an interesting option; Gray Elf Generalist with Hummingbird and the Elf racial gets +6, Improved Initiative is +4, +5 Dex, +5 Nerveskitter = +20. We'd need +3 more assuming the Barbarian isn't investing more than +4 Dex in it. +2 Dex item is doable if a tad pricey and I'm sure you can get some competence or whatever bonuses.

Alternatively, walking around at all times using Tower Shield for Total Cover works and being hidden well enough that the Barb can't Spot you. Also just having the initiative start at over 90' range or with terrain that prevents charging works as does carrying around ****ers that intercept the movement (Animal Companion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard) + Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) would allow you to have some bodyblockers around and this level is high enough for Command Undead to be bringing something along as well).

All of this is kinda tentative; it's pretty hard to win assuming opponent only rolls 20s and you only roll 1s this low. Though it's doable of course, if you put your mind to it.

[StevenC21]

Lets start off with our worst-case scenario. If we can find a win there, we can find a win anywhere.

What is our Worst-case scenario?
Barbarian wins initiative
Barbarian gets into melee range and attacks.
Barbarian hits, crits, confirms, and rolls max damage.

Assuming 22 STR (18 base +4 rage) and full power attack, we're looking at:
Greataxe +7 (+1 Enhancement, +6 Strength, +5 BAB, -5 Power Attack) melee, 1d12 + 20 (+6 Str, +3 two-handed (1/2 STR), +1 enhancement, +10 Power Attack)
Max damage is thus 32, which is 96 on a x3 Crit.

So, the Barbarian is capable of slicing the wizard in half on round one if he gets lucky.

How do we prevent this from happening?





Edit: Also, what kind of prep time do we have? Do we start the battle with buffs or no? Hour/lvl+ buffs only?

No buffs, no prep.

[Elkad]

Lets start off with our worst-case scenario.
<math snipped>

So, the Barbarian is capable of slicing the wizard in half on round one if he gets lucky.

How do we prevent this from happening?

Assuming charge distance? Have your familiar stand between you and the barbarian.
Of course your familiar will die instead, but that won't cost you the fight, just some XP.

[emeraldstreak]

Assuming charge distance? Have your familiar stand between you and the barbarian.


Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller:
Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature
three size categories larger than it is. A gnome (Small), for example,
can run between the legs of a cloud giant (Huge).
A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature
three size categories smaller than it is. A cloud giant, for example,
can step over a gnome.

[Elkad]

A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is.


Sure. Tiny Familiar blocks small or medium barbarian. Large barbarian overruns it.
Just don't pick a bat or toad and you are good vs a half-orc or other normal-sized race.

If he's large, you'll have to blow a feat for a blink dog or something I guess.

[Crake]

Sure. Tiny Familiar blocks small or medium barbarian. Large barbarian overruns it.
Just don't pick a bat or toad and you are good vs a half-orc or other normal-sized race.

If he's large, you'll have to blow a feat for a blink dog or something I guess.

Octopi are valid familiars according to stormwrack, and are small, so they can block large creatures.

[Eldariel]

Sure. Tiny Familiar blocks small or medium barbarian. Large barbarian overruns it.
Just don't pick a bat or toad and you are good vs a half-orc or other normal-sized race.

If he's large, you'll have to blow a feat for a blink dog or something I guess.

I did just mention a Wizard can trade familiar for AC. A medium creature more than suffices (and doesn't cost XP to boot). Wild Cohort likewise. But failproofing Initiative sounds better to me.

[Andezzar]

I looked into Deep Slumber, but it is Range: Close, so I would need to wait until the Barbarian is dangerously close to use it...

However, he does have literally +1 to Will Saves, so I have a solid shot of killing him if I do that.


Touch of Idiocy is good, but I'm afraid to get into melee range.

I like the Animated Object idea, but I really am hoping to get a one-shot scenario. I really want to show him just how ridiculous optimized spellcasters can be.
Read up on ready action. "If he moves into melee range, I cast deeper slumber on him." Replace deep slumber with any encounter ending spell of your choice.

[emeraldstreak]

Read up on ready action. "If he moves into melee range, I cast deeper slumber on him." Replace deep slumber with any encounter ending spell of your choice.

Can't ready Deep Slumber anyway.

[Andezzar]

Can't ready Deep Slumber anyway.Oh I missed the casting time. Just use a standard action encounter ender. E.g. shivering touch and a lesser metamagic rod.

[Crichton]

We haven't heard many of the details, but let's all remember that this is a built-to-purpose Wizard, but an actual already existing Barbarian character. A lot of things that a hypothetical level 5 Barbarian could be built to do, this one wont be able to. We've all been assuming that losing initiative is really bad, but for most level 5 Barbarians, their total move speed is only 40, so even if they win initiative, they can't Charge in their first round. 100 feet away is too far., unless they are a race with at least a 40ft move speed naturally, or they have some other move speed increases already. StevenC21 hasn't told us that detail yet. Unless they do, this fight is way easier than we've all been preparing for.

[Cygnia]

Besides the Greataxe +1, do we know how the Barbarian is specc'ed?

[StevenC21]

20 STR, 13 DEX, 18 CON, 8 INT, 10 WIS, 12 CHA.

Anything else you need to know? He is wearing studded leather armor for AC 14.

[Cygnia]

Do you know his feats?

[Crichton]

20 STR, 13 DEX, 18 CON, 8 INT, 10 WIS, 12 CHA.

Anything else you need to know? He is wearing studded leather armor for AC 14.

His move speed, after adding his Barbarian Fast Movement, and any special move features/upgrades he has, like the Animal Devotion Troacctid mentioned, or anything that lets him move abnormally?

[StevenC21]

He has power attack and cleave.

Move speed 40 ft.

[Mike Miller]

This isn't a fair fight at all. It sounds like the barbarian player doesn't have much insight into material outside of core or even outside of being a melee beatstick. He probably doesn't know many arcane spells or their ramifications. You won't need much strategy to win. The ideas in this thread have definitely gone overboard for what he has in store.

[ExLibrisMortis]

He has power attack and cleave.
He's hoping that he'll drop a second wizard after he completely dominates the first?

[StevenC21]

Hey, he chose the feats... I don't claim to understand his motivation.

[Vizzerdrix]

Yeeesh. A sling and the mount spell will do it.

[Oberron]

So glitterdust/web/shatter/fly and a bunch of core only stuff easily wins this

[emeraldstreak]

This isn't a fair fight at all. It sounds like the barbarian player doesn't have much insight into material outside of core or even outside of being a melee beatstick. He probably doesn't know many arcane spells or their ramifications. You won't need much strategy to win. The ideas in this thread have definitely gone overboard for what he has in store.


So glitterdust/web/shatter/fly and a bunch of core only stuff easily wins this

It's just a newbie barbarian who've never even smelled an arena, let alone been on one.

[Crichton]

So glitterdust/web/shatter/fly and a bunch of core only stuff easily wins this

Glitterdust, web, and fly, sure, but what would shatter do? Wouldn't hurt the barbarian, and wouldn't hurt his magical greataxe?

[Vizzerdrix]

Glitterdust, web, and fly, sure, but what would shatter do? Wouldn't hurt the barbarian, and wouldn't hurt his magical greataxe?

Everyone knows barbarian rage is directly tied to their loincloth. Shatter it (easy because barbarians rarely bathe) and he looses his power.

[Oberron]

Glitterdust, web, and fly, sure, but what would shatter do? Wouldn't hurt the barbarian, and wouldn't hurt his magical greataxe?

Destroy his nonmagical armor. With Web and blind the wizard could then beat the barbarian by stabbing with a knife or sling. No studded leather + a -4 to dex from entangled + a -2 from blind means an ac of 7 or less if barbarian is raging. This gives a wizard 75% chance of hitting wit nearly anything. It's more about embarrassing with wasteING spells in inefficient ways.

[SirNibbles]

In a 1v1 you might want to go for Torrent of Tears (Complete Mage, page 119) to hit the enemy with Blinded and Sickened with a single spell instead of using Glitterdust.

[Cygnia]

Closer range needed though, which could potentially be problematic if the barbarian actually makes the Will save.

[ericgrau]

Hello all! Before I get into the bulk of my post, I need to give some backstory.

I am the Dungeon Master of a small group of players. As I often do, I was talking about how much I love Wizards after our session, and how I think they are the best class.

One of my players thinks they suck, and that his Barbarian could easily defeat one. I know this sounds ridiculous, of course. I took him up on his offer. And now, I come to you all!

I need a level 5 Wizard who's only job is to kill that Barbarian! The foe in question is a level 5 Half-Orc Barbarian who has rolled max HP (Our wizard will get the same), landing him a total of 75 HP. As such, direct damage is off the table, though I do know that it's never really a good choice...

EVERYTHING first party (including Dragon Mag) is allowed without restriction. I want to show this kid just how insignificant his little axe swinger is...

My issue is that most of my builds come online at 6th level. As it is, I made one Human Wizard (6th level), who abused Lahm's Finger Darts (BoVD) for a guaranteed 18 DEX damage, no save, no attack roll. The issue is, again, he's level 6, and I need that 5th feat to grab Arcane Thesis: Lahm's Finger Darts.

So... does anyone here know a level 5 Wizard build that would be able to stomp over a level 5 Barbarian? If it was anything before this, I'd just load up on DC boosters and cast Sleep... but that only works up to 4 Hit Dice. This is a very inconvenient spot as it is.

So... any ideas?

Edit: We are starting at a distance of 100 feet. So Range: Close spells won't be optimal.

So you're the DM, you're bringing in the might of forum knowledge and everything is allowed even Dragon Mag. He keeps his current character without rebuilding. Not exactly a fair fight.

As for the argument I'd say depends on level of optimization. More of it opens up more tricks to the wizard than it does the barbarian, so both being equal the wizard pulls ahead. Though I'm assuming equal optimization. High optimization on one character only is a bit one sided regardless of the class, and will probably curb stomp the other regardless. Heck I might put my money on an everything-optimized no limits commoner 5 over a wizard 5 someone through together. Not to beat the wizard, but to curb stomp him. Though that depends on how far the cheese is truly allowed to go.

Now as for a DM in a hurry to throw together a 4v4 wizard fight by tomorrow with just vanilla spells (no NI loops, no combos, no week prep of divinations, etc.)... it's over in a couple rounds with barely a scratch on the party. 1v1 you could have luck on your side and hope the barbarian rolls low and/or you pump a save-or-X spell for a save you know he's low in. Without allies to rescue him it favors a quick save or lose like deep slumber. And PCs vs monsters it's yet another story.

[Darth_Versity]

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but Shivering Touch with the Sudden Maximse feat. 18 Dex damage as touch attack is fairly lethal at level 5.

Cast invisibility first and use your familiar to deliver it for maximum safety.

[Telonius]

So when is this fight supposed to go down? Let us know how it turns out!

[StevenC21]

It happens today!

I'll try to remember to make another post afterwards in this thread.

[Mike Miller]

It happens today!

I'll try to remember to make another post afterwards in this thread.

Anything yet? Seemed amusing...

[StevenC21]

Oh, yes it was.

So, he agreed once again to the fight. Just had to ensure that he was consenting.

So then, we started. 100 feet away.

Round 1:

He wins Initiative and charges to 20 feet away.

I cast Glitterdust. He fails his save and is blinded. I move 15 feet to the left to get out of position.

Round 2:

He, now blinded, charges again but obviously misses me.

I cast Lahms Finger Darts and get Max on it, for a total of 8 DEX damage.

Round 3:

He begins running away.

I move 30 feet towards him and cast Slow. He fails his save.

Round 4:

He continues running, now at half speed.

I proceed to recast Lahms Finger Darts, dealing 5 more DEX damage. He now has DEX 0. He can no longer move.

Round 5:

I approach and shank him.

Round 6:

Shank.

Round 7:

Shank.

Round 8:

Shank again, coup de Grace.

All in all, he was somewhat embarrassed but took it well. It was enlightening for him.

[Kyutaru]

I hope you shanked him with a normal 1d4 dagger just to prove the "point". Pun intended.

[emeraldstreak]

He wins Initiative and charges to 20 feet away.

That's just a double move.


He continues running, now at half speed.

He was already moving at half speed because he was blinded.

[Mr Adventurer]

I'm curious what he thought would happen. What spells did he envision being cast that he would be able to ignore? Just damage?

[Malphegor]

I'm not that familiar with Lahm's finger dart, is that the one that's basically magic missile but it deals dex damage and you lose a finger each casting? If so, nice.

[Eldariel]

I'm not that familiar with Lahm's finger dart, is that the one that's basically magic missile but it deals dex damage and you lose a finger each casting? If so, nice.

Yeah, it's a 2nd level Corrupt spell that sacrifices fingers and causes Str-damage to do 1d4 Dex damage per Finger. Like Magic Missile, you get to shoot more Fingers per casting with higher caster level. Pretty strong except for the fact that it's pretty hard to get back your fingers so you're restricted to shooting 8 times and then casting spells with two fingers (the book says a hand with one or two fingers is useless). Well, until you heal the Str damage anyways, which also regenerates the fingers. A regenerating caster might not need bother? The rules are silent on this, though the Str damage is a bit annoying in the long run anyways.

[SirNibbles]

Oh, yes it was.

So, he agreed once again to the fight. Just had to ensure that he was consenting.

So then, we started. 100 feet away.

Round 1:

He wins Initiative and charges to 20 feet away.

I cast Glitterdust. He fails his save and is blinded. I move 15 feet to the left to get out of position.

Round 2:

He, now blinded, charges again but obviously misses me.

I cast Lahms Finger Darts and get Max on it, for a total of 8 DEX damage.

Round 3:

He begins running away.

I move 30 feet towards him and cast Slow. He fails his save.

Round 4:

He continues running, now at half speed.

I proceed to recast Lahms Finger Darts, dealing 5 more DEX damage. He now has DEX 0. He can no longer move.

Round 5:

I approach and shank him.

Round 6:

Shank.

Round 7:

Shank.

Round 8:

Shank again, coup de Grace.

All in all, he was somewhat embarrassed but took it well. It was enlightening for him.

Pretty obvious the player was unaware of some rules.

1. Double move instead of taking a full round to run (4x speed in a straight line) makes no sense. He could've instantly closed the gap and forced you to move with a 5 foot step or take an AoO.
2. Being blinded makes you move at half speed: "The character cannot see. He takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed..."
3. "If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent."

[StevenC21]

Yeah, he's very far from experienced with the rules...

I'm teaching him. But he's not far yet. He's in that awkward point where he knows nothing, but doesn't realize he knows nothing. So he's really confident.

I'm going to get him playing a Warblade I think.

[emeraldstreak]

I'm going to get him playing a Warblade I think.

Barbarian is fine if he stops being a newbie about it.

[StevenC21]

Yes, but I'm more able to assist a Warblade.