No martial controller?

[Tvtyrant]

I noticed there isn't a martial controller, the closest is the Seeker. Was this just an oversight or is this not possible within the framework of the game?

Edit: asking because I want to make a martials only game/setting but the lack of a controller option kind of shoehorns people.

[ThePurple]

I noticed there isn't a martial controller, the closest is the Seeker. Was this just an oversight or is this not possible within the framework of the game?

It's possible, largely because Controller is a *very* poorly defined (from a mechanical perspective) role: it's the only role that is literally defined *exclusively* by its power selection and is intended to include both control/debillitative effects as well as large AoEs. I blame the entirety of this upon the assumption that Wizards should be the "default" controller while attempting to preserve the ridiculous "Wizards can do anything with the right spell" design that Wizards have had in the past. Personally, I find it to be a better solution to just separate the AoE from the control effects and just make artillery and controller separate role (like they do with the NPC roles).

However, there *is* indeed a Martial Controller. The Hunter Ranger from Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdom is, in fact a controller. The problem is that, compared to pretty much every other Controller in the game, it's a worse controller and a better striker (it's in that weird Striker/Controller hybrid region that Warlock finds itself in), since it doesn't get much more than an area burst 1 (albeit a high damage and extremely long range area burst 1) for AoE purposes and it's only got single target control effects (albeit higher than normal damage ones with extremely long range).

You could feasibly reinterpret Seeker as a Martial Controller (barring a few of the more explicitly supernatural effects), but Seeker isn't particularly good because it lacks feat and splatbook support (ironically, Hunter Ranger MC Seeker is extremely good because Hunters are pretty much entirely Ranged Basic driven and one of the few Seeker feats allows Hunters to add their DEX twice to Ranged Basic damage rolls). Thankfully, Controller is probably the least necessary of the roles so it's not a huge loss to your party's functionality not to have one (a good Controller with the right powers can turn a fight into a laugh, but nothing they bring to the party is what I would consider "essential", like the Nova/DPR capability of a Striker, the consolidation of incoming damage like a Defender, or the in-combat healing and increased HS efficiency of a Leader).

[Tvtyrant]

Would it be OP to just stuff the good parts of seeker and hunter ranger together while playing alongside Fighter, Rogue, Warlord and Ranger? I want to have variety available and some people like controller types.

[MwaO]

Would it be OP to just stuff the good parts of seeker and hunter ranger together while playing alongside Fighter, Rogue, Warlord and Ranger? I want to have variety available and some people like controller types.

A reasonably easy way to do this is just go hybrid Ranger|Seeker. It tends to be a little more striker, but you spend a feat to convert the Ranger at-will into the burst 1 RBA and take a Seeker RBA to feed the now Ranger burst 1...

[Duff]

It really is a hole in the system isn't it?

4th ed specifically invites "reskinning" to change the flavor text.

So you could take any controller and declare them "martial" with minimal game effect. You have a martial wizard? Call them a "Grenadier" They make their alchemical grenades and carry them on bandoleers.

Redescribe your slide effect as "A hail of arrows forcing the target to duck for cover"

Your martial druid doesn't turn into a bear, he's a beserker who goes feral and uses a pair of gauntlet axes for beastform powers

[Dimers]

Would it be OP to just stuff the good parts of seeker and hunter ranger together while playing alongside Fighter, Rogue, Warlord and Ranger? I want to have variety available and some people like controller types.

Not OP, should be fine. Though fighters and rogues can lean pretty far toward controller if that's how you want to build 'em.

Out of curiousity, in your martials-only game, will you be allowing MC or hybridization for nonmartial classes? That would open things up too, controller-wise.

[Tvtyrant]

Not OP, should be fine. Though fighters and rogues can lean pretty far toward controller if that's how you want to build 'em.

Out of curiousity, in your martials-only game, will you be allowing MC or hybridization for nonmartial classes? That would open things up too, controller-wise.

The plan is tentatively to expand the ritual list, give everyone access to arcana, nature or religion (trinary at character build) and all magic is ritual based. The goal is more of a Conan or mythic feel; magic is rarely used in combat but instead something you do in a more complicated way.

4E has the best combat by far for martials/mundanes, which is why I keep drifting back to it for this.

[Dimers]

Nice. Good flavor.

[darkbard]

So you could take any controller and declare them "martial" with minimal game effect. You have a martial wizard? Call them a "Grenadier" They make their alchemical grenades and carry them on bandoleers.

With all due respect, "Bridgeburners" in homage to Steven Erikson's sappers is the only proper nomenclature. :smallwink:

[Duff]

With all due respect, "Bridgeburners" in homage to Steven Erikson's sappers is the only proper nomenclature. :smallwink:

I've not read those books. But I may well now!

[Tvtyrant]

With all due respect, "Bridgeburners" in homage to Steven Erikson's sappers is the only proper nomenclature. :smallwink:

Practical Guide to Evil has Goblin Sappers that work basically the same.

I'm running Dark Ages (more Greek then post Roman) as part of the setting though, no early modern tech stuck in my setting.

[Beoric]

I'm running Dark Ages (more Greek then post Roman) as part of the setting though, no early modern tech stuck in my setting.

That still leaves Greek fire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_fire)and Roman fire pots (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_thermal_weapons).

[Tvtyrant]

That still leaves Greek fire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_fire)and Roman fire pots (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_thermal_weapons).

The Greek dark age is before classical Greece, Greek fire is from the Byzantines.

[MinotaurWarblad]

@OP

I’m in the process of developing powers for a martial controller. Right now the whole class is broken in the sense that it functions more like a low-end striker with a focus on controlling effects (like Warlocks and Rogues) more than a controller. After I get my post count up a little I’m planning to post in in the homebrew column with a discussion thread here.

[ThePurple]

@OP

I’m in the process of developing powers for a martial controller. Right now the whole class is broken in the sense that it functions more like a low-end striker with a focus on controlling effects (like Warlocks and Rogues) more than a controller. After I get my post count up a little I’m planning to post in in the homebrew column with a discussion thread here.

Years ago, I made a martial controller that I called the Scout (based vaguely off of the Scout from 3.X with the Skirmish class feature). You either used off-hand weapons or spears and for the large part functioned similar to how the melee-weapon Seeker ended up manifesting. The major difference was that I included a Trap functionality for the daily powers that allowed them to place traps on the field that had to be triggered by enemies (or with a standard action on the part of the Scout) and, if they weren't triggered, the trap could be "retained" without expending the use of the power.

My group playtested it a bit and it seemed to go pretty well, but it become kind of irrelevant after the Seeker came out since it was so similar to it.

[MinotaurWarblad]

Years ago, I made a martial controller that I called the Scout (based vaguely off of the Scout from 3.X with the Skirmish class feature). You either used off-hand weapons or spears and for the large part functioned similar to how the melee-weapon Seeker ended up manifesting. The major difference was that I included a Trap functionality for the daily powers that allowed them to place traps on the field that had to be triggered by enemies (or with a standard action on the part of the Scout) and, if they weren't triggered, the trap could be "retained" without expending the use of the power.

My group playtested it a bit and it seemed to go pretty well, but it become kind of irrelevant after the Seeker came out since it was so similar to it.

You wouldn’t happen to have any notes on that for posterity’s sake, would you?

[ThePurple]

You wouldn’t happen to have any notes on that for posterity’s sake, would you?

I still have the entire thing on hand, in fact. The formatting got screwed up when I shifted it from my old PC to this one, but it's all still there.

[Angel Bob]

I still have the entire thing on hand, in fact. The formatting got screwed up when I shifted it from my old PC to this one, but it's all still there.

Then let's see it! I'm very intrigued.

[ThePurple]

Then let's see it! I'm very intrigued.

Done (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?588777-Scout-Martial-Controller). I never quite finished it, so you'll notice quite a few names missing and there still a few feats I need to create, but it's got the full quantity of powers, PPs, etc. that you'd expect out of a 4e class.

[SodaQueen]

Someone I used to game with wrote up a pugilist/grappler type controller. Someone actually used it in game and I remember the grabbing enemies and throwing them at other enemies was especially effective.

This was a while back but I can ask if he still has it.

[ThePurple]

Someone I used to game with wrote up a pugilist/grappler type controller. Someone actually used it in game and I remember the grabbing enemies and throwing them at other enemies was especially effective.

This was a while back but I can ask if he still has it.

I tried to create a viable concept for a grappler, but 4e just doesn't really support the ruleset since the whole "roll to grab, sustain the grab, then roll to execute a throw" thing becomes really cumbersome and doesn't really work appreciably well compared to just doing an attack. Also, a melee only controller is at a severe disadvantage (even if you're giving them "ranged" attacks via throwing enemies at other enemies, they still need an enemy in melee range to have a ranged attack). Inevitably, it just becomes a monk without Full Discipline, which is just kinda boring.

Also, there's some sim/nar issues involved since, by the mechanics and for balance purposes, a medium or small sized creature should have no issues immobilizing a large, huge, etc. creature, it doesn't really make much sense. Forced movement can make sense in a kind of "hit them in the right spot and they'll stumble there" kind of way, but someone who weighs less than the weapon you're wielding holding you in place by the ankle is kind of hard to swallow. Suspension of disbelief becomes problematic when the 30 ton dragon is being held down by the 200 lb humanoid grappler.

[darkbard]

Suspension of disbelief becomes problematic when the 30 ton dragon is being held down by the 200 lb humanoid grappler.

And yet, such is the case in myth and legend, the kind of heroic genre 4E best emulates!

[MwaO]

Suspension of disbelief becomes problematic when the 30 ton dragon is being held down by the 200 lb humanoid grappler.

Beowulf is often described as having barehandedly having ripped the arm off of a scaly giant(Grendel) whose scales made him impossible to hurt with weapons? Whose head was so large it required 4 men to carry it?

Suspension of disbelief needs to be consistent. If one can justify Huge Dragons, meaning 17-30+ level Solo monsters, one should also be able to justify a grappler in their Epic Destiny transcending mortality being able to grapple them.

[ThePurple]

Beowulf is often described as having barehandedly having ripped the arm off of a scaly giant(Grendel) whose scales made him impossible to hurt with weapons? Whose head was so large it required 4 men to carry it?

I always saw the thing with Grendel being immune to weapons as an aspect of hide being so thick. From a materials science perspective, a material can be strong and tough enough to resist bludgeoning and hacking blows but still be vulnerable to strong enough torsion or other "ripping" forces applied to it. This is what I always figured was what was supposed to have happened: Grendel's hide was so thick it couldn't be cut or injured via bludgeoning force, so Beowulf just used a different avenue of attack.

As for the head, I never read that it was so big it required 4 men to carry it. Beowulf carried it out himself; the 4 men that carried it were doing it as an honorguard kind of thing. As such, Grendel wasn't *that* huge. He was big, but he was small enough to get into Heorot and "sneak" around within it. I would venture that Grendel was supposed to be in the region of 8-10' tall, which is a giant in the context of humans but not really a "giant" within the context of D&D.

Suspension of disbelief is a weird thing. Everyone's got a different take on it.

[MwaO]

I always saw the thing with Grendel being immune to weapons as an aspect of hide being so thick. From a materials science perspective, a material can be strong and tough enough to resist bludgeoning and hacking blows but still be vulnerable to strong enough torsion or other "ripping" forces applied to it. This is what I always figured was what was supposed to have happened: Grendel's hide was so thick it couldn't be cut or injured via bludgeoning force, so Beowulf just used a different avenue of attack.

As for the head, I never read that it was so big it required 4 men to carry it. Beowulf carried it out himself; the 4 men that carried it were doing it as an honorguard kind of thing. As such, Grendel wasn't *that* huge. He was big, but he was small enough to get into Heorot and "sneak" around within it. I would venture that Grendel was supposed to be in the region of 8-10' tall, which is a giant in the context of humans but not really a "giant" within the context of D&D.

Suspension of disbelief is a weird thing. Everyone's got a different take on it.

Right. Just saying, if the choices were:
An Epic Tier PC managing to grab a 30 ton dragon, because that's pretty much the only place 30 ton dragons exist.
A non-Epic Tier PC managing to rip a scaly giant's arm off when that arm is immune to sword blows.

I find the 2nd less plausible from a suspension of disbelief.

[Jaeda]

I guess video games have made me feel like this type of thing is normal. Midna is probably small sized and she stops a charging gargantuan Ganon, although admittedly magic was involved. Earlier in the game though Link stops a rolling goron with nothing but heavy footwear and grit.

[ThePurple]

Right. Just saying, if the choices were:
An Epic Tier PC managing to grab a 30 ton dragon, because that's pretty much the only place 30 ton dragons exist.
A non-Epic Tier PC managing to rip a scaly giant's arm off when that arm is immune to sword blows.

I find the 2nd less plausible from a suspension of disbelief.

Personally, I find the 1st less plausible because grabbing and holding someone in place is accomplished by forcing them to carry you (and a lot of skill goes into making them experience more of your weight and inhibiting their movement by tangling up their limbs; there's force multiplication involved) but a 200 lb person is less than 1% of the body weight of said 30 ton dragon and doesn't really have the reach to be able to tangle up those limbs. It's a bit like a mouse being able to prevent a fully grown human from moving just because it jumped on their leg: it might be *super hard* to get off, especially if it knows how to stay on, but it's not gonna be able to physically stop you from moving around.

At least with the Beowulf arm-ripping, you're simply having to disbelieve that a human being can have such an insane level of strength that they can rip the arm off of a big, scaly beast. In both cases, there's a bunch of strength involved, but only in the first case are you dealing with somehow having to explain why a trivial weight is now somehow able to prevent an even more powerful beast from moving.

[MwaO]

Personally, I find the 1st less plausible because grabbing and holding someone in place is accomplished by forcing them to carry you (and a lot of skill goes into making them experience more of your weight and inhibiting their movement by tangling up their limbs; there's force multiplication involved) but a 200 lb person is less than 1% of the body weight of said 30 ton dragon and doesn't really have the reach to be able to tangle up those limbs. It's a bit like a mouse being able to prevent a fully grown human from moving just because it jumped on their leg: it might be *super hard* to get off, especially if it knows how to stay on, but it's not gonna be able to physically stop you from moving around.

Except at this point, we're no longer talking about a 200 lb person. We're talking about a literal demigod. Or some other Epic Destiny where reality bends to the PCs will to accommodate their full capabilities.

[SodaQueen]

Sorry I brought it up I was just trying to help the OP sheesh

[ThePurple]

Sorry I brought it up I was just trying to help the OP sheesh

I mean, these are the kinds of discussions we both enjoy, lol.

[MwaO]

I mean, these are the kinds of discussions we both enjoy, lol.

Yeah, we're not fighting at all. Both of us have very valid points and a lot of it just relates to 'what is the Martial power source', 'what does Epic *really* mean', and what does suspension of disbelief do.

I kind of think of it as a Thor/Captain America problem. If Thor wrestled a Dragon, I don't think anyone has any issues with it. Captain America? Um, that might be tricky to explain. So is an Epic Grappling specialist moving onto Thor territory in the Grappling realm? Seems plausible to me. Not to ThePurple.

Does a Paragon Grappling specialist ripping the arm off a scaly giant immune to normal weaponry make sense? Sure, seems fun. But I find that less plausible than an Epic Tier grappler specialist pinning down a Dragon if we're going to bring standard physics into play.

But that points right to the problem of a Martial controller in 4e — how restrained by actual physics should we be? Because if a controller can't function in each tier due to real world reasons, it isn't really viable.

[SodaQueen]

It's just that this sort of mentality just feeds into why martials can't have nice things imo. Noone raises an eyebrow at a wizard waving a finger and warping reality with zero consequences outside of spell slots/powers spent, and like not even with fantasy staples like magic being dangerous or draining the body, but the moment a martial does something that a normal human couldn't in a game of epic fantasy it's all "my suspension of disbelief is totally broken! Sure, a several ton dragon is flying and also has baffling skeletal and muscle structure with 4 legs and 2 wings and there's no way the ecology could support so many giant monsters anyway, but that dude just picked up an ogre?! No verisimilitude here, unrealistic I say!"

And I'm not trying to be disrespectful of your opinions at all, I just get frustrated that this comes up every time and the logic involved just seems so silly to me.

[ThePurple]

It's just that this sort of mentality just feeds into why martials can't have nice things imo.

One of the things I *like* about 4e is that it gives martial characters all kinds of fancy toys to play around with. 4e gives martial characters more nice things than any other edition has, which is why I think martial players tended to be happier with 4e than people that traditionally play casters (the same seems to be true for a lot of "obligatory cleric healer" types that were freed up from buff spells so that they could actually attack and *do* things via 4e's method of implementing the leader role).

To me, epic tier martial is about having such a prodigious level of skill and sheer determination that you're able to accomplish things that are preposterous. It's Batman and Captain America stuff. Thor starts getting into the divine (or arcane, depending upon how you interpret it) power source so you get a bit more physics-defying allowance, but the point of martial is that, like Batman and Cappy, you're *not* tapping into anything supernatural: you're just *that good*. An epic tier grappler being able to pin down a Medium-sized (or even Large) deific manifestation? Sure, I can get behind that. Even the Greek myths had stories about a human being who is so damned good at something that they're able to beat the gods (of course, in the Greek myths, they end up regretting it), but when the sheer physical presence starts to dictate more than skill, I start having a hard time believing it.

A lot of it also depends upon the genre of the game. If you're talking about a wuxia setting, I can *totally* get behind all of this kind of stuff, because wuxia *loves* the whole "pure skill allows you to do impossible things like wire-fu jumping and finding a toe hold on a cloud so you can fight in the clouds" school of tropes. In wuxia, "martial" is basically a magical power source like any other, honestly.

[ve4grm]

Personally, I find the 1st less plausible because grabbing and holding someone in place is accomplished by forcing them to carry you

Also, that's only the most basic type of grapple. Throw in nerve pinches and pressure points, plus leverage ala Akido, and a 100-pound person in real life can potentially take down a huge bodybuilder. Add some fantasy physics, and I think we're good. :smallbiggrin:

[Yakk]

Epic tier martial is "I have insane levels of skill due to my dedication and talent in my craft".

But the insane levels are "I am a demigod, or on par with one".

The dragon runs at the wrestling master. The wrestling master shoves his foot into the ground, grabs the attacking limb, the entire dragon pivots around him. The dragon's limb ends up crossing another and the legs are in the air, and if the dragon has to twist itself around to avoid getting two of its limbs being torn off.

That dragon is *pinned*. It might be able to physically roll over, but doing so would be fatal as it would be minus two limbs that the human will use the dragon's bulk to rip off. They are already straining and pulling against each other; if the dragon tightens those muscles, everything will tear.

The dragon can still tear with the other two claws and bite at the wresting master. And it *could* decide "I lose two limbs, bleed out, but I stand up first" (congrats! 0 HP), it probably won't tho.

Any move that a martial character does can be reframed as "the foe must do this or be reduced to 0 HP". Push a gargantuan dragon with an attack? The dragon gets to choose: 0 HP, or be pushed 1 square. Go ahead, take your time, you have 0.25 seconds to decide.

(Note: as a short cut, decree that nobody ever picks 0 HP.)

Sword play is about "I am trying to kill you". Epic martial characters, on every swing, are throwing blows that could even kill a god. Their foes avoid dying usually; but the martial character is so good they can force the defender into worse and worse positions every time it avoids death.

[SodaQueen]

One of the things I *like* about 4e is that it gives martial characters all kinds of fancy toys to play around with. 4e gives martial characters more nice things than any other edition has, which is why I think martial players tended to be happier with 4e than people that traditionally play casters (the same seems to be true for a lot of "obligatory cleric healer" types that were freed up from buff spells so that they could actually attack and *do* things via 4e's method of implementing the leader role).

To me, epic tier martial is about having such a prodigious level of skill and sheer determination that you're able to accomplish things that are preposterous. It's Batman and Captain America stuff. Thor starts getting into the divine (or arcane, depending upon how you interpret it) power source so you get a bit more physics-defying allowance, but the point of martial is that, like Batman and Cappy, you're *not* tapping into anything supernatural: you're just *that good*. An epic tier grappler being able to pin down a Medium-sized (or even Large) deific manifestation? Sure, I can get behind that. Even the Greek myths had stories about a human being who is so damned good at something that they're able to beat the gods (of course, in the Greek myths, they end up regretting it), but when the sheer physical presence starts to dictate more than skill, I start having a hard time believing it.

A lot of it also depends upon the genre of the game. If you're talking about a wuxia setting, I can *totally* get behind all of this kind of stuff, because wuxia *loves* the whole "pure skill allows you to do impossible things like wire-fu jumping and finding a toe hold on a cloud so you can fight in the clouds" school of tropes. In wuxia, "martial" is basically a magical power source like any other, honestly.I don't understand your logic at all. Whatever, you play your game and I'll play mine.

[MwaO]

It's just that this sort of mentality just feeds into why martials can't have nice things imo. Noone raises an eyebrow at a wizard waving a finger and warping reality with zero consequences outside of spell slots/powers spent, and like not even with fantasy staples like magic being dangerous or draining the body, but the moment a martial does something that a normal human couldn't in a game of epic fantasy it's all "my suspension of disbelief is totally broken! Sure, a several ton dragon is flying and also has baffling skeletal and muscle structure with 4 legs and 2 wings and there's no way the ecology could support so many giant monsters anyway, but that dude just picked up an ogre?! No verisimilitude here, unrealistic I say!"

And I'm not trying to be disrespectful of your opinions at all, I just get frustrated that this comes up every time and the logic involved just seems so silly to me.

I suspect we have the exact same opinion. I'm just stating that if there is a problem, the problem is a non-Epic PC ripping a giant's arm off, not an Epic PC grappling a Dragon.

Honestly, I find Vancian casting to be more problematic than martials. For whatever reason, it has been accepted by the majority of D&D players, but it has little internal logic and ends up just stupid in every iteration. Particularly with the rampant single -> mass power creep.

[ve4grm]

I don't understand your logic at all. Whatever, you play your game and I'll play mine.

Yeah, don't worry about it. The folks around here argue and debate all the time, but we generally get along and accept each others' opinions. We're the holdouts of an excellent, unique game, and we all have that in common. It's all friendly here.

[Beoric]

It's Batman and Captain America stuff.

Not great examples. Cap is, in fact, augmented by the "super soldier" serum. Bats can't go toe to toe with monstrous opponents, but relies upon his gear and crazy preparedness.

It would be easier to play Bats in a rules light system, or with a very flexible 4e DM who was not worried about RAW or even RAI and would let PC preparation and planning trump combat rules and skill checks. If you manage to collapse a mountain on a dragon, you don't limit yourself to DMG p. 42.

And wuxia isn't martial, its psionic, a la the monk, and maybe battlemind. Martial characters generally don't fly or do elemental damage without gear.

[Tvtyrant]

Not great examples. Cap is, in fact, augmented by the "super soldier" serum. Bats can't go toe to toe with monstrous opponents, but relies upon his gear and crazy preparedness.

It would be easier to play Bats in a rules light system, or with a very flexible 4e DM who was not worried about RAW or even RAI and would let PC preparation and planning trump combat rules and skill checks. If you manage to collapse a mountain on a dragon, you don't limit yourself to DMG p. 42.

And wuxia isn't martial, its psionic, a la the monk, and maybe battlemind. Martial characters generally don't fly or do elemental damage without gear.

Wuxia is paragon power. One of the Epic Destinies is to actually be a primordial, or a demigod. Hercules is a martial epic, Captain America is a paragon level character and Batman is Heroic.

Epic level characters are dealing in threats that would show up in DC or Marvel's big name comics. Tiamat versus the Avengers would be about the Hulk and Thor tanking her until they could use the mcguffin to banish her or make her scales permeable; they are not threats any normal person is fighting and the destinies agree with that.

[ThePurple]

Not great examples. Cap is, in fact, augmented by the "super soldier" serum. Bats can't go toe to toe with monstrous opponents, but relies upon his gear and crazy preparedness.

Both Batman and Captain America are defined as being "peak-human physical performance". Batman gets there via training while Captain America got there through the serum (he's noted as being Olympic-level in physical capabilities, not superhuman), which is why I used those as examples: everything they're capable of is derived from training and natural inclination. Captain America can fight and be relevant alongside Thor and Iron Man because Cappy *has that much skill* (being in peak physical condition also helps, but the threats relevant to Thor, because he's a god, and Iron Man, because he's in super-tech armor, are so far beyond "peak physical condition" that it's kind of irrelevant). Put his shield in the hands of someone like Tony Stark or Thor, and it won't be able to do *nearly* as much as it will in his hands because, while it's a powerful tool, it's *not* the reason he's a superhero. Same goes for Batman's toolbelt.

For some characters, their gear is literally the only reason they can compete (Iron Man); for others (like Batman and Captain America), it's simply part of their total kit and wouldn't really do anything for the average person (or, at least, would do very little).

Also, I would argue that Batman's "crazy preparedness" is simply a manifestation of martial.

[Rakaydos]

Martial control specialties:
Cutting through a crowd with high mobility
Battlefield level fear and morale effects
Mass pet innate action training

The first is a two weapon build who gets "rain of steel" fighter daily as an at-will, and goes up from there. Someone who can walk through a horde of zombies and leave a trail of bodies, but leaves fighting the dragon to others.

The second is a battlefield captian, one who leaves managing his own troops to the warlords but who can inspire and terrify based on reputation and orders to the troops. (think bagpipes or roman spear/shield banging type stuff)

The third is a trainer of warbeasts, but unlike the beastmaster ranger he doesn't put all his effort into one creature. Innate actions wernt around when the beastmaster came out, but as a way to semi-control a group of animals, it seems ideal. Gets access to the same pet-revive ritual as the ranger, pets are picked up as part of certian Daily powers.

[ThePurple]

Martial control specialties:
Cutting through a crowd with high mobility
Battlefield level fear and morale effects
Mass pet innate action training

The first, based on what you described, is gonna be OP as hell. What's more likely is gonna be bursts, likely without the insane degree of mobility you're describing. This is basically how the Hunter Ranger operates.

The battlefield fear stuff is, imo, more along the lines of what actual samurai were intended to do. The heavy kabuto armor and all of the accoutrements were designed to inspire fear in opponents. I designed a samurai class of the defender role that was either sub-controller (with heavy armor; CHA-based fear secondary effects) or sub-striker (with no armor; DEX-based iajutsu effects); the heavy armor samurai was more historically accurate while the no armor samurai was more in line with the anime/story samurai concepts.

Mass pet actions would be *incredibly* problematic, for both balance and logistics. Balance-wise, instinctive actions play merry hell with the balance inherent in the action economy, especially when you're allowed to put out a bunch of them. I'm also not entirely sure it would work with the controller paradigm. I've always felt that "beastmaster" fit more as a theme with linked PPs and EDs than as a class proper. Your *character* should be the star of the show with your animal companion playing a companion role, not the animals being the main attraction. A theme (designed along the lines of the Fey Beastmaster) would allow you to do this while still providing some mechanical benefits and a streamlined ruleset for doing so.

[Duff]

Rather than the samurai, "Hoplite" may be the scary controller given the Greek flavour. Their helmets and formations were certainly designed to intimidate the enemy as well.

How much work do you want to do?
How much do you and your group value balance and how sure are you that you can deliver it?
How much is optimisation part of the game?

You could have a conversation with the player at each level up about which powers, feats etc. So rather than design a class which is a mashup of hunter and seeker which would be OP or require work to balance, design a *build* which is in balance with the party. This would spoil the fun for a player who enjoys the mini-game of optimisation, but its probably best not to give that player a homebrew class unless you're really sure of your work.