Need Help with A Tough character

[darkcrab36]

Hello, firstly I'd like to thank anyone looking over this and offering any help, as this recent campaign a friends running has opened up some rather interesting possibilies, as I will discuss below. All rules/available books and my current ideas will also be listed below. I will try and reply as soon as I see a message pop up ^^.

So long story short, a friend of mine is gathering myself and some old buddies to run a 3.5 campaign, but he is allowing us an LA worth of 7 to spend on a race and templates. Mind you we will be starting at level one, just with said 7 LA worth of races and Templates. One friend is playing a rogue, another a psionic mindflayer (who wouldn't want that) And the last is playing some kind of bard.

So that falls onto me to playing the big beefy melee character, which thankfully I'm happy to do. Now, Before I discuss what I've so far come up with, I will explain books rules and that sort of stuff.

Rules

Edition: 3.5
While we will be getting 7 LA worth of stuff between race/class, we will be level one and we won't be getting any feats/skills/HD that say....a 4-5 LA monster race would get. All we get are stat boosts, and base abilities one would get for being said race (such as a rakasha's spell resistance)

Books Available: So far as I can tell anything that was made into an official physical book is legal, not counting stuff like Dragon Magazine. Naturally online only stuff is also outlawed. Naturally only books made for DnD version 3.5 are allowed.

There will be no flaw feats allowed ( I may be able to change that, but for now its a big no)

Seeing as I am going for a melee build, he has outlawed Uber charger setups. That includes hitting certain feats that really enable it (storm trooper etc) I did it once, he found it hilarious how said rules could be interpreted, than promptly said no more of that silliness.

32 Point Buy

What I have currently Come up with, and am curious on expanding with.
For Race/templates So far I have been thinking
Stone Giant(lesser) For 4 LA the stats alone seem insane, not to mention the extra 10 move speed, natural armor and the fact I get to be large, and thus get some reach.
2x Slams to expand on my full attacks when I get to do so.

Than for a template I would take Half Dragon From the Dragon cross breed template. This would cost my last 3 LA but would offer me natural flight, a nice chunk of stats, a few status immunities along with an elemental immunity as well as a bite attack ( claws as well technically, but two hander and all that jazz). I suppose the extra 4 Natural armor is icing on the cake.

For my Class I was thinking of going for either a Warblade or a Psychic Warrior, but if you guys have any other suggestions I am certainly open to all ideas. If you think it may be better to go with TWF or something else please say so, curious what kind of insanity can be cooked up given this 7 LA thing. Generally speaking as long as its melee, Im certainly all ears.

As for a build, as I said due to the humongous strength/reach, I was thinking maybe a tripper or just a straight up brawler, granted the no flaw feats things would make me kinda starved for a few available paths. Just looking to be a melee force to be reckoned with, and open to any ideas.

Thanks again for any advice you can offer!

[Maat Mons]

War Trolls (Monster Manual III) are LA +6, and their regeneration is overcome only by Acid damage (not Fire).

Tainted Blood (Bestiary of Krynn) is an LA +1 template that gives immunity to Acid damage. Bestirary of Krynn is a book with the "Official Licensed Product" seal, so I'm not sure if it falls within your allowed sources.

[darkcrab36]

War Trolls (Monster Manual III) are LA +6, and their regeneration is overcome only by Acid damage (not Fire).

Tainted Blood (Bestiary of Krynn) is an LA +1 template that gives immunity to Acid damage. Bestirary of Krynn is a book with the "Official Licensed Product" seal, so I'm not sure if it falls within your allowed sources.

First of all thank you for the reply, But im looking at the Monster manual 3, and maybe im blind but I'm not seeing a stat block, or what modifiers I'd get for using a War troll

I see the regen nine, spell resist etc, but no stats.

[eggynack]

First of all thank you for the reply, But im looking at the Monster manual 3, and maybe im blind but I'm not seeing a stat block, or what modifiers I'd get for using a War troll

I see the regen nine, spell resist etc, but no stats.
There's no list of straight up modifiers, but the stat block is right there on page 181. You just have to figure out how the modifiers operate yourself. As I recall, you subtract 10 or 11 from each stat, whatever would give an even number, and that's the mod. So, +20 str, +6 dex, +18 con, -2 int, +4 wis, and +0 cha.

[darkcrab36]

There's no list of straight up modifiers, but the stat block is right there on page 181. You just have to figure out how the modifiers operate yourself. As I recall, you subtract 10 or 11 from each stat, whatever would give an even number, and that's the mod. So, +20 str, +6 dex, +18 con, -2 int, +4 wis, and +0 cha.

Ok thanks, didn't know that actually.....been a while since ive 3.5'd, let alone really number crunched a char.

For now, I think he wanted characters that straight up had stat modifier blocks(like stone giant, orc etc). I will ask him about the war troll and how that works though, see if I get a yes or no.

Assuming I get a no, thoughts on lesser stone giant/half dragon.....and more importantly, war blade vs Psionic warrior, or if people far better versed than me in this version can think up, a different class?

A tripper is definatly something I'm thinking of, as natural reach is always a plus, but the no flaw feats will lead to some feat starving, Unless im forgetting and trippers aren't actually so feat intensive.

[MisterKaws]

Incarnate Iron Colossus Were-Battlerager(Afflicted) is LA +2 and has Str +70, Dex -4, Wis +4, Int -2, Cha -4, plus +32 Str and +18 Con in animal form.

The downside would be that it can only be an afflicted Lycanthrope, since Incarnate Construct is an acquired template, and any other that comes after it is also acquired. I'd recommend Werecrab or Were-Devastation Beetle but that's from a web article.

Another option would be a Tauric creature. Choose the dumbest Large Animal or Magical Beast you can find, then add all the templates you can to it. Then add a human base body on top of it and it's suddenly only LA +3 with all the abilities. Also don't forget to add learnean so that you have a human body on one of the heads and a ton of other heads to play with.

[darkcrab36]

Incarnate Iron Colossus Were-Battlerager(Afflicted) is LA +2 and has Str +70, Dex -4, Wis +4, Int -2, Cha -4, plus +32 Str and +18 Con in animal form.

The downside would be that it can only be an afflicted Lycanthrope, since Incarnate Construct is an acquired template, and any other that comes after it is also acquired. I'd recommend Werecrab or Were-Devastation Beetle but that's from a web article.

Another option would be a Tauric creature. Choose the dumbest Large Animal or Magical Beast you can find, then add all the templates you can to it. Then add a human base body on top of it and it's suddenly only LA +3 with all the abilities. Also don't forget to add learnean so that you have a human body on one of the heads and a ton of other heads to play with.


Thanks for replying, and yes anything that's a web article is automatically out.

The tauric I will also look into, as I can imagine some hilarious combinations, if not ones that may force a characters early retirement :P. Also any thoughts on good symbiotic creature combinations for this?

As a note, I would like to thank everyone for racial suggestions, but Im noticing a lack of suggestions for classes, whether I go for the stone giant/half dragon combo or not.

Can a tripper be decent even without flaw feats, or will it lead to some starvation issues?

Edit: I am kinda feeling dumb, But how would incarnate Iron collosus work? Aren't they ridiculously high level creatures, way above a 7 LA adjustmenet?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Sand Giant (MM3) is +4 LA.
Natural Lycanthrope (MM) is +3 LA, pick Legendary Bear or Legendary Tiger (MM2) for the animal portion of that. (MM2 has an official 3.5 update (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a), the 3.5 versions can be found in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/legendaryAnimal.htm).)

In hybrid or animal form, you'll get stat adjustments as follows:
Bear: Str +42, Dex +14, Con +24, Int +0, Wis +8, Cha +2, +23 natural armor
Tiger: Str +38, Dex +18, Con +24, Int +0, Wis +8, Cha +2, +23 natural armor

In animal form, if you go with bear you'll get improved grab, if you go with tiger you'll get improved grab, pounce, and two rake attacks. If you plan on spending most of your time in hybrid form, bear is the better choice.

For class selection, I'd go one level of Ranger with the variant in UA on page 58 (grants Barbarian fast movement at 1st level), then four levels of Ardent from Complete Psionic, and then Sanctified Mind in Lords of Madness. If you max out Sanctified Mind, finish the build with Illithid Slayer in Expanded Psionics Handbook, or an adaptation of that for a different psionic enemy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) (which is from the WotC official SRD (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35), not "web content").

For feats, get Combat Reflexes at 1st



If you would begin play with your race's natural spellcasting ability, such as if the psionic illithid is beginning play with Psion 9 manifesting, or if a Rakshasa would begin with Sorcerer 7 spellcasting, then you should absolutely go with something with natural spellcasting ability.

A Juvenile Steel Dragon from Dragons of Faerun is LA +4, and has Sorcerer 7 spellcasting.
An Ak'chazar Rakshasa in MM3 is +5 LA and has Sorcerer 12 spellcasting.
A Black Ethergaunt in Fiend Folio (officially 3.5 update shows no changes (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a)) is +4 LA with Wizard 17 spellcasting.

A Lammasu (MM) has a +5 LA and Cleric 7 spellcasting, with access to two domains from Good, Healing, Knowledge, or Law. If you take a Cleric level, it increases your spellcasting and gives you two more domains. You can use Tauric Creature (SS, MM2, both officially updated to 3.5 (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a)) to combine a Human with one similar to a Centaur, and you'll only keep the LA from Human and Tauric Creature, which is +3 LA total, but your ability score bonuses will only be the physical stats of the Lammasu. You'll keep the Cleric 7 spellcasting, and all of the Lammasu's other special abilities except darkvision and low-light vision (as you'll have a human head). Take Cleric and you can wear heavy armor, your 1st level feat should be Multiattack (MM). Carry a heavy shield and a decent one-handed weapon, you can use Magic Vestment +2 on your armor and shield every day. You'll have Pounce, so charge and hit with your one-handed weapon and your two claw attacks (secondary) and two rake attacks. Consider taking Prestige Paladin in UA. For the remaining +2 LA I'd probably get Draconic Creature in Draconomicon, Phrenic Creature in XPH, and probably either Half-Minotaur in Dragon 313 (even though you won't get a size increase from it) or Feral in SS.

[liquidformat]

for your build half I would go with barbarian 2/warblade18 take the lion spirit totem variant from complete champion at barbarian 1 to replace your movement speed with pounce and the wolf totem variant from UA/SRD at barbarian 2 to replace uncanny dodge with improved trip. Take Power attack at level 1 and Knock-Down from the Deities and Demigods/ SRD at level 3. You could also take improved bull rush and awesome blow if so desired.

[Particle_Man]

Maybe a Young Gold Dragon with a +1 LA template from somewhere (dark, perhaps, to mitigate the vulnerability to cold?)? Great movement rate in three modes (land, sea and air!), a level of spellcaster (so can use any wands, for instance, that a sorcerer or cleric can use, and have access to wands that use spells of the law, luck or good domains), can assume humanoid form (in case Large is too large for a dungeon hallway or you don't want to scare locals in a town) or animal form (stealth!), immune to fire, sleep and paralysis, two types of breath weapon (although with no racial HD, the save would be easy for others to make, barring a house rule - maybe your DM would allow class HD to affect the DC of your breath weapon) which can be used every 1d4 rounds (and underwater), and of course SIX natural attacks (the bite even has reach!) which are treated as magic weapons. Oh, and you have Blindsense, Frightful Presence, 120' darkvision and souped up low-light vision. Also amazing natural armour.

I mean why go half-dragon when you can go DRAGON? ;)

Warblade is a good class, but Crusader is also good for tanking. Your amazing flight speed (200'!) or even the mere 60' for land and water speed) mitigates one of the problems with tanks, and the Crusader's "thicket of blades" stance mitigates another one. And your will save would be good too. Then again, maybe natural attacks and strikes that are standard actions do not mesh well. Your call.

Another option is the psychic warrior, as the expansion power increases your size category which can give you more natural attacks.

[Rebel7284]

Monster of Legend has been updated to exactly 7LA and has some nice options you can chose such as a 3.0 Haste effect for an extra standard action or cleric 5 casting (Ruby Knight Vindicators make the BEST tanks.)

War Troll is a good suggestion with Dazing Blow being pretty great for melee.

Sharn is a deeply deeply ridiculous monster and you can definitely focus on melee out of those portals.

[MisterKaws]

Thanks for replying, and yes anything that's a web article is automatically out.

The tauric I will also look into, as I can imagine some hilarious combinations, if not ones that may force a characters early retirement :P. Also any thoughts on good symbiotic creature combinations for this?

Anthropomorphic Giant Octopus + Huge Dungeonbred(to Large) Monstrous Crab. 1d6 Bite, 6x1d3 Tentacles(plus 6x2d6 Constrict) and 2x2d6 Claws(plus 2x4d6 Constrict). And then add Half-Dragon to the Tauric Creature for a perfect +7 LA. Do have mercy on those Goblins.

By the way, your DM isn't planning on sending Goblins to this ridiculous party of yours, is he?


As a note, I would like to thank everyone for racial suggestions, but Im noticing a lack of suggestions for classes, whether I go for the stone giant/half dragon combo or not.

Since ubercharger is out, your best choice would be grappler or Dungeoncrasher Fighter. Do note, though, that you always qualify as mounted if you go Tauric, which opens up the mounted ubercharger route instead.


Can a tripper be decent even without flaw feats, or will it lead to some starvation issues?

I think you're better off making a grappler, especially if you add a creature with base Constrict to your Tauric Creature.


Edit: I am kinda feeling dumb, But how would incarnate Iron collosus work? Aren't they ridiculously high level creatures, way above a 7 LA adjustmenet?

Iron Colossus is LA none by default, but Incarnate Construct has minimum 0 as a clause, so technically, you'd drop it down to 0. I just suggested Battletitan as well for icing on the cake, but Devastation Beetle is leagues above it. I got that trick trying to make the most ridiculously overpowered enemy legally at CR20, and I found it's an Incarnate Stone Colossus Were-Devastation Beetle Warblade 1, which gives you some 60 feats and Initiator level above 100.

[Maat Mons]

Looking at the feats you'll want, and how to fit them in, I'm going to suggest the following.

Psychic Warrior 2 / Crusader 4

Level 1: Combat Expertise
Psychic Warrior 1: Improved Trip
Psychic Warrior 2: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain)
Level 3: Combat Reflexes
Level 6: Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades)

[darkcrab36]

Ok first of all Sorry I haven't been replied, the bed was calling to me by 7 am.

Firstly I'd like to thank everyone for their idea's, and I have a few notes as I've been asking my Dm about a few ideas.

1. Lycanthropy, much like Tauric/symbiotic are very much on his wary list, I may be able to take them, but using ideas like the legendary bear etc may equal an early retirement, so it may be best to ignore all that. I will certainly look into it a bit, but a clear warning was made. He may be allowing 7 LA etc, but there are limits. So while i wish I had known than on my OP, thats now an issue lol

2. Sand giant, if I go that than something like Psionic warrior seems like a better fit than crusader/warblade, as that +6 to wis(plus whatever else I take) will allow me a rather hefty point pool, well by Psi warrior standards anyhow, maybe go a vampiric claw thing, as with 40+str id be self healing an outright ludicrious amount of damage.

3 @ Particle man So i am looking for this young gold dragon template thing, but again I'm not the best book searcher, mind giving me a link or something?

4. If I do go for say, a dragon/giant thing Id get 2x slams, 2x claws 1x bitte. Any type of class that can really, really make use and excel with that? Again, psionic warrior and vampire claws+their other buffs are an idea.

5. @MisterKaws oh lord I hope not, I'd have to actually pity the poor things.

[Falontani]

Half Giant: LA +1
+2 strength
-2 dex
+2 con
Powerful Build (counted as large when beneficial)
+2 Power Points

Mineral Warrior: LA +1
+3 natural armor
+2 strength
+4 con
-2 int
-2 wis
-2 cha
Dr 8/adamantine
15 ft burrow speed

Multiheaded: LA +2
+1 natural armor
+2 con
2 decent bonus feats
Superior Two Weapon Fighting

Voidmind: LA +3
+4 natural armor
+4 str
+2 dex
+4 con
+2 int
-2 cha
SR
Dr 5/magic
A tentacle with extra reach
An in game reason to be with the illithid (which gives the illithid several bonuses for being with you)


Level 1 Psychic Warrior: human heritage + Combat Expertise
Level 2 Psychic Warrior: Improved Trip
Level 3 Warblade: Aberration Blood (flexible Limbs)
Level 4 Warblade
Level 5 Crusader
Level 6 Warmind: Aberrant Reach
Level 7 Warmind
Level 8 Warmind
Level 9 Warmind: Extended Reach
Level 10 Warmind
Level 11 Warmind
Level 12 Fighter : Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spinning Sword, Weapon Focus: Spinning Sword
Level 13 Exotic Weapon Master
Level 14 Exotic Weapon Master
Level 15 Psion: Deepspawn, Illithid Heritage
Level 16 Flayerspawn Psychic
Level 17 Flayerspawn Psychic: Illithid Grapple
Level 18 Flayerspawn Psychic: Illithid Grapple
Level 19 Flayerspawn Psychic: Illithid Grapple

[Particle_Man]

Gold dragon is not a template. It is a race found in the monster manual (or online srd) under dragon, true, subheading metallic, sub-sub-heading gold, then further divided by age category. A young gold dragon is +6 LA so you have room for a +1 LA template but I am not sure you even need it. But hey if it is free why not? Dark isn’t bad as a template.

To find ability modifiers subtract 11 from the odd stats and 10 from the even ones.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm

Another point for the crusader: any devoted spirit stance that heals per successful attack will heal more if you get six natural attacks per round. That said, warblade has more counters and boosts, which synergizes well with full attacks. Warblade also gets access to a strike that lets you charge and full attack, though not until fairly high levels.

Oh and with the dark template younot only get the cold resistance (to mitigate the vulnerability to cold that gold dragons have) but gain hide in plain sight and a movement rate boost to 70 walking or swimming and 210 to flying. So if the average monster tries to run away, after your attack of opportunity you can on your turn move to the creature and strike with a maneuver.

The annoying part of this is that I doubt I will find a dm that lets me ignore 7 LA and eliminates racial HD for PCs so I won’t get to play it myself. :smallfrown:

Oh another class option you might consider is swordsage: the setting sun maneuvers have some trip options and you said you were interested in a trippper. Plus the shadow hand maneuvers are pretty sweet too. Tiger claw has a nice crit fisher stance (something to think about with six attacks per round). Then again crusader has healing which your party might be low on. It is a tough call. Plus you could be a crusader of the platinum dragon which is thematic. Or invoke the dark template and work towards ruby knight vindicator. :smallbiggrin: