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TheLogman
2007-10-04, 07:07 PM
Just a little mental exercise to keep me awake during the boring moments of school, I want to figure out the maximum time you can spend underwater without the Water Breathing spell, gills, ect. All you get is a race that cannot breath water, (Your choice), and must find the longest time you can spend underwater. This is assuming that not only do you get the free rounds, but that you roll 20's every time you roll to see if you continue surviving. This way, you can survive a number of rounds equal to: Your (Con Scorex2)+10+Con modifier. If you have any obscure feats from like Stormwrack or something, feel free to use those too. 20th level Character, spells and magic items, but only up to +6 slotted Con items, and only with the Enchantment bonus, no Luck or untyped cheese. And Please, no Pun-Pun.

Here's mine:

Green Smasher, the 20th level Gnome Barbarian:

18 (Starting score)+ 2 (Gnome)+ 5 (Leveling Ability score bonuses)+5 (Tome or Wishes (They don't stack))+8 (Rage)+6 (Bracer of Bodily Health)=44 Constitution.

44*2= 88 rounds without trying. +10, +Con modifier (+17) Equals 115 Rounds, or 11.5 Minutes. Any better way?

Collin152
2007-10-04, 07:21 PM
Is that accounting for the fact that the rage doesn't last the entire duration of 23 minutes?

TheLogman
2007-10-04, 07:24 PM
Wellll, the rage lasts for 20 rounds, (Improved Con Modifier+3), and as a 20th level barbarian, you get to Rage 6 times a day, so you really get 120 rounds of Rage, which is more than you can stay alive for. It's only once per encounter sure, but taking a swipe at a fish is technically an encounter, so as long as there is fish, you're solid. It's not like you have anything else to do for 23 minutes.

The_Snark
2007-10-04, 07:29 PM
Yes... that exact same build, except as a Darfellan, and with the Endurance feat. Add Expert Swimmer from Stormwrack, assuming you houserule it so that it adds your Con score to how many rounds you can hold your breath (as opposed to setting it automatically to 3, which is a big step back for darfellans).

And actually, I'd drop the barbarian levels, too, since you'll run out of rage before you run out of breath. Replace it with... well, anything, really.

Darfellan (blank) 20, 34 Con (starting 18, +5 tome, +5 level boosts, +6 amulet). That's 306 rounds or over half an hour, without even starting to drown. If you include drowning time...

+20 modifier to hold breath, so tack another three minutes of Constitution checks onto that.

brian c
2007-10-04, 07:45 PM
I think Endurance would give a +4 bonus to that, if that helps. (and by now it's been mentioned already)

Also, you could get rage to last an ungodly amount of time. Extend Rage makes it +5 rounds and can be taken multiple times, stacking.

Assuming not humans, lvl20 gets you 7 feats. If you spend one on Endurance and the other 6 on Extend Rage, that gives you rage for +30 rounds. Base con of 18 + tome + item + every 4th level + 2 (whatever race) = 36, +8 rage = 44 Con, for a base of 3 + 17 = 20 rounds. With Extend rage, that's a total of 50 rounds raging, = 5 minutes each rage. 6 Rages per day means you can rage for 300 rounds = 30 minutes each day.

There are probably other things you can stack onto this too; Necklace of the Marauding Beast, Raging Bear (Arms and Eq. Guide) makes rages last +1 round for example.


Edit: If you replace some Barb levels with Dwarf Paragon, you can get another +2 Con. You get one less rage per day, but the +2 Con all the time outweighs the +2 Con while raging that you'd get from Mighty Rage.

TheLogman
2007-10-04, 07:49 PM
Why does Endurance work? It's a +4 to resist NonLethal Damage, Drowning is not Nonlethal. As a Darfellan, but still a Barbarian, with everything the Green Smasher has, but not a gnome. Rage won't work now though, so his Con is now 34, (What you said). So, 34*8=272+10+12 (Con Modifier). 294 rounds, without the Endurance or Expert Swimmer (Neither of which sound like they should work). 29.4 Minutes, almost half an hour. That kind of eliminates the need for the Water Breathing spell. Using the Raging Technique mentioned above, you can gleam another 24 rounds, or 2.4 minutes, for a total of 31.8 minutes. Can we beat that?

Vaynor
2007-10-04, 07:56 PM
Why does Endurance work? It's a +4 to resist NonLethal Damage, Drowning is not Nonlethal. As a Darfellan, but still a Barbarian, with everything the Green Smasher has, but not a gnome. Rage won't work now though, so his Con is now 34, (What you said). So, 34*8=272+10+12 (Con Modifier). 294 rounds, without the Endurance or Expert Swimmer (Neither of which sound like they should work). 29.4 Minutes, almost half an hour. That kind of eliminates the need for the Water Breathing spell. Using the Raging Technique mentioned above, you can gleam another 24 rounds, or 2.4 minutes, for a total of 31.8 minutes. Can we beat that?

Why waste twenty levels to avoid using one low level spell?

martyboy74
2007-10-04, 07:58 PM
Why does Endurance work? It's a +4 to resist NonLethal Damage, Drowning is not Nonlethal.


Endurance [General]
Benefit
You gain a +4 bonus on the following checks and saves: Swim checks made to resist nonlethal damage, Constitution checks made to continue running, Constitution checks made to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march, Constitution checks made to hold your breath, Constitution checks made to avoid nonlethal damage from starvation or thirst, Fortitude saves made to avoid nonlethal damage from hot or cold environments, and Fortitude saves made to resist damage from suffocation. Also, you may sleep in light or medium armor without becoming fatigued.

Normal
A character without this feat who sleeps in medium or heavier armor is automatically fatigued the next day.

Special
A ranger automatically gains Endurance as a bonus feat at 3rd level. He need not select it.

I'm fairly sure that endurance does apply here.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-10-04, 08:01 PM
Why does Endurance work? It's a +4 to resist NonLethal Damage, Drowning is not Nonlethal.
Ahem...

"You gain a +4 bonus on the following checks and saves: Swim checks made to resist nonlethal damage, Constitution checks made to continue running, Constitution checks made to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march, Constitution checks made to hold your breath, Constitution checks made to avoid nonlethal damage from starvation or thirst, Fortitude saves made to avoid nonlethal damage from hot or cold environments, and Fortitude saves made to resist damage from suffocation."

And even if you get 6 rages, you can only use rage once per encounter. (Remember, an encounter is one continuous "challenging" event. This makes the entire "holding your breath" an entire encounter on its own, regardless of how many fish you "swipe" at.) This is regardless of your fatigue, so Tireless rage doesn't help. However, you only need the rage bonus when you start running out of drowning time, so you really only need to rage the one time anyway.

TheLogman
2007-10-04, 08:23 PM
Alright, that'll teach me for not reading. Alright then, figuring in Endurance, and using my 5 minutes of rage at the very end, the last round before death, we get
294 (Original), +3 from the Rage, +4 more from Endurance, (One again, sorry), we get 301. Less than before, but without raging more than once. (Which would work if you were fighting sharks or doing useful things while underwater. If you were fighting sharks, and using the Rages in this way, you get 313 rounds, or 31.3 minutes. Only 1 more minute anyway.)

And Vaynor, this isn't an optimization, I just like crunching numbers and in the process finding fun new things, like that fish race.

F.L.
2007-10-04, 08:28 PM
Well, provided you can get an infinite or near-infinite con score, you can spend an indefinite time underwater until drowning. It's overused, but you start with a kobold commoner 1...

Dang and blast, didn't read the OP fully...

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-04, 08:37 PM
With a simple reed or other hollow tube, you can spend an effectively infinite amount of time underwater. :smallbiggrin:

TheLogman
2007-10-04, 08:47 PM
Well yes, but it's more fun to crunch these numbers like a left-brainer than to think up perfectly reasonable practical solutions like you right-brainers.

Kyace
2007-10-04, 08:53 PM
With a simple reed or other hollow tube, you can spend an effectively infinite amount of time underwater. :smallbiggrin:

I'd require you make Str checks to draw air down and for your now more full lungs to displace all that heavy water. :P

bingo_bob
2007-10-04, 08:57 PM
Ha. I think I can beat you all, without too much cheese. Actually, with Nega-Cheese, since I'm using the Thunder Guide. It's Breath of Shargon ability lets me hold my breath for one minute per point of constitution.

So... Gnome Barbarian 18, Thunder Guide 2.

Starting score of 18, +2 (gnome), +5 from leveling, +5 Tome, +6 Bracers, +6 Rage, gives me a CON of... 42. So, that's 42 minutes without trying. Once he's making saves that's 27 more rounds, for a total of 44.7 minutes.

Ha! I knew there was a reason I bought the Explorer's Handbook!

EDIT: With endurance, that's... 45.1 rounds. Not much of a difference, but hey.

BardicDuelist
2007-10-04, 09:03 PM
Green Smasher, the 20th level Gnome Barbarian:

18 (Starting score)+ 2 (Gnome)+ 5 (Leveling Ability score bonuses)+5 (Tome or Wishes (They don't stack))+8 (Rage)+6 (Bracer of Bodily Health)=44 Constitution.

44*2= 88 rounds without trying. +10, +Con modifier (+17) Equals 115 Rounds, or 11.5 Minutes. Any better way?

Emphasis mine. I thought +5 was the maximum you could go.

bingo_bob
2007-10-04, 09:20 PM
It is. The +8 is from the Rage.

BardicDuelist
2007-10-04, 09:26 PM
Sorry, my bad. I misread that.

Chronos
2007-10-04, 10:56 PM
Is there any reason to stick to LA 0 races here? Losing class levels only costs you one Con point per four levels, and the barbarian's capstone is only another two. Surely there's a level-adjusted race somewhere that has a larger bonus to Con than that?

leperkhaun
2007-10-05, 12:03 AM
hmmm i think ninja spy PrC has a ki breath ability that lets them hold their breath for a long time.

Nebo_
2007-10-05, 02:35 AM
Mineral Warrior Dragonborn Mongrelfolk for +10 to Con instead of the measly +2 from a gnome. I hate gnomes; better to play a stony, squamous, ugly dude.

hewhosaysfish
2007-10-05, 07:36 AM
Well creatures that can breathe under water have been specifically disallowed (and by implication those that don't need to breathe too, otherwise Air Gensai ftw) but what about those with some sort of Hold Breath ability like Lizardfolk or some sort of nonsense with anthropomorphic porpoises?

Crow
2007-10-05, 08:07 AM
Well, I believe it's a series of Fort Saves after you blow through your constitution, so being that you always roll 20 on your save, and a 20 is an automatic success...

Human Commoner 1.

Forever.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-10-05, 08:24 AM
Well, I believe it's a series of Fort Saves after you blow through your constitution, so being that you always roll 20 on your save, and a 20 is an automatic success...
No. It's Constitution checks. No saves at all. Therefoe, no automatic success or failure.

Leon
2007-10-05, 10:43 AM
Same deal as above but with a Lizardfolk, minus the raging etc.

i'll post somethig that makes sense when its not way late

Citizen Joe
2007-10-05, 10:49 AM
So you guys don't see the inherent illogic of raging and holding your breath?:smallconfused:

Karsh
2007-10-05, 11:08 AM
...this is D&D. What logic?

Person_Man
2007-10-05, 11:11 AM
You could throw in a level of Marshal, gain your Cha bonus to all Con checks.

Telonius
2007-10-05, 11:17 AM
Anything with Fast Healing can't suffocate. They'll continually stabilize.

So, if races with Fast Healing are allowed, take one of those and win with "forever." If not, take Combat Focus, Combat Vigor, to extend your time a bit.

Captain van der Decken
2007-10-05, 11:18 AM
Do you get prep time?

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-10-05, 12:02 PM
So you guys don't see the inherent illogic of raging and holding your breath?:smallconfused:
What makes it so illogical? Nothing says a raging barbarian has to be screaming the whole time.


Anything with Fast Healing can't suffocate. They'll continually stabilize.
The drowning rules say nothing about stabilizing helping you. You're unconcious for two rounds and on the third you drown, regardless of your hit points.

In any case: "Fast healing does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fastHealing) (emphasis mine).

Suddie
2007-10-05, 12:22 PM
I'd require you make Str checks to draw air down and for your now more full lungs to displace all that heavy water. :P

Actually I'd say it would be a will check. As swimmers and snorkelers seem to be able to displace all that heavy water with little difficulty. The trick would be convincing your body you have enough air and therefore not blow youre cover by gasping and leaping to the surface.

Jasdoif
2007-10-05, 12:27 PM
OK, I'm bored.

Ogre natural Were-Orca (some class) 2, in hybrid form. ECL 20.

Constitution: 18 (base) + 4 (ogre) + 10 (orca) + 5 (tomes) + 6 (enhancement) = 43.

A lycanthrope retains the special qualities of the animal form, thus this were-orca can hold its breath for 8 x Con rounds before it risks drowning. That's 344 rounds.

The Con modifier is +16, so with +4 from Endurance and so with all natural 20s on the Con checks that's another 31.

So, 375 rounds, or 37.5 minutes.