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whiplashomega
2019-05-16, 01:48 PM
I've seen a lot of Padlock, Sorcadin, and Hexsorcerer(?) builds out there. But I really wanted a build that would be all three. This build focuses on melee nova damage, combining eldritch smite, divine smite, twin spell, and quicken spell to try to do as much damage in one round as possible, and still be a serviceable melee character when not in nova mode.

Backstory: This character lived a long life as a merchants guard, before dying and finding himself in the heaven of the god of trade (in the particular setting he is set in, a sigil-like city on the astral sea, from which trade ships travel all the planes). In this after life he found a new career as a bounty hunter, hunting down merchants who broke the laws of the god of trade and sending them to hell. Eventually, one of his bounties got the better of him, plane-shifting him back to the material plane. His connection to heaven has granted him a powerful connection to his god in his blood (Divine Soul sorcerer). Determined to find out how he was bested he has sworn an oath to make the best of this second life, bringing justice to the world, and earn his place back in the heavens when he eventually dies.

Race: Half-elf, because it simply is the best race for these builds. This is a face/sneak character OOC so grab slight of hand and acrobatics with skill versatility
Background: Urban bounty hunter (SCAG) or Spy (PHB), grabbing deception and stealth as well as thieves tools prof
Alignment: Lawful neutral
Point buy stats: Str 13, Dex 14(+1 from half-elf), Con 14(+1 from half-elf), int 8, wis 11, Cha 17(+2 from half-elf, at our table this is an 18 because we use a 30 pt, max 16 pt buy, but I digress)
Level 1: Sorcerer (1) (divine soul) cantrips: minor illusion, prestidigitation, toll the dead, booming blade. 1st level spells: bless (law affinity), sanctuary, magic missile.

At this level you are a pretty standard divine soul sorcerer. Stay out of reach and use toll the dead in combat while maintaining bless on allies.

Level 2: Warlock (1) (hexblade) cantrips: eldritch blast, green flame blade. Level 1 spells: Hex, Shield. Hex Warrior, Hexblade's Curse.

Hex Warrior allows us to right away move towards our primary fighting style, which will be a sword and board method. With half-plate and shield we have 19 AC (good for level 2), 24 AC (good at any level) in a pinch with shield, and we can pick up any one handed weapon we like, probably a longsword or battleaxe, for 1d8+3 damage, but usually we will be using booming blade or green flame blade.

Level 3: Paladin (1) divine sense and lay on hands. Our least useful level, if we had started with this we could have picked up heavy armor proficiency, but I decided to favor con save proficiency over the +1 to AC.

Level 4: Warlock (2), Level 1 spells: armor of agathys. Eldritch Invocations: Devil's sight, agonizing blast. These provide some cheese and versatility, but are really just placeholders for now. We also pick up our second warlock spell slot, so that's good.

Level 5: Warlock (3) Level 2 spells: Darkness. Warlock invocations: Switch agonizing blast for thirsting blade. My DM has decided to allow warlock invocations to be based on character level, rather than warlock level (and yes, he is aware of the Sage Advice that says otherwise) because he thinks the build is cool and wants it to come online sooner, otherwise you are pretty behind until levels 7-8.

Level 6: Paladin (2) divine smite, paladin spellcasting, dueling fighting style. We should be a reasonable match to most single class characters at this point, and things start to come online pretty fast from here on out. This is our last level of Paladin, we have what we came for and it would take 4 more levels to get anything else actually useful to us.

Level 7: Warlock (4) Level 2 spells: Misty step, switch out darkness for mirror image. Invocations: switch out devil's sight for eldritch smite. ABI take either +2 CHA, Elven Accuracy (CHA), or War Caster.

Level 8: Sorcerer (2) Level 1 spells: Take whatever you like, I picked Disguise Self for some OOC help, but Healing Word is another good choice. We also pick up 2nd level standard spell slots at this level.

Level 9: Sorcerer (3) Level 2 spells: We already have mirror image and misty step from warlock, so we'll pick up web so we can give ourselves advantage in a pinch without disrupting our party with darkness cheese. Metamagic: Quicken Spell, Twin Spell. All of the key features are now online, from here it's just picking up more levels in sorcerer & warlock.

Level 10: Sorcerer (4) Level 2 spells: We'll pick up blindness/deafness for another potential advantage proc, this one not requiring concentration and targeting CON rather than DEX/STR. Second ABI, take one of the options you didn't take at Level 7, so if you took Elven Accuracy, take +2 CHA or War Caster, etc.

Level 11: Sorcerer (5) Level 3 spells: Spirit Guardians, because we want to make it even harder for enemies to walk away from us, while making them REALLY want to walk away from us.

Level 12: Warlock (5) Level 3 spells: good options include Enemies Abound, Fly, Hypnotic Pattern, and Thunder Step, picking whichever one fills a party need.

Level 13: Sorcerer (6) Level 3 spells: A LOT of good options here, but I'll go with Haste. We pick up our first 4th level spell slot, catching us up with a full class Paladin for standard slots, but we also have our 2 3rd level warlock slots. We also get empowered healing, a nice boon to the whole parties durability.

Level 14: Sorcerer (7) Level 4 spells: also a lot of good options, I like Greater Invisibility here for a no-save advantage bonus. Quicken it to minimize action economy loss, or twin it to give the boost to yourself and an ally.

Level 15: Sorcerer (8) Level 4 spells: I like Storm Sphere or Polymorph as good options, I'll go with Storm Sphere. 3rd ABI, take the last of the three original options that you haven't yet.

Level 16: Sorcerer (9) Level 5 spells: Pick up what the party needs, Greater Restoration, Mass Cure Wounds, and Raise Dead are all good choices if you happen to be the parties only healer. Otherwise if you'd like to stick to offensive or control, go with Animate Objects or Cloudkill. There's nothing like dumping out 10 pebbles from a little bag and having them do 30 damage a round as a bonus action for the rest of the combat.

Level 17: Sorcerer (10) Level 5 spells: I like Mass Cure Wounds if you picked up Animate Objects last level. More metamagic options here, I like subtle spell and heighten spell.

Level 18: Sorcerer (11) Level 6 spells: I would pick Scatter here, allowing you to set up the battlefield as it most helps you and your party.

Level 19: Warlock (6) Level 3 spells: Hunger of Hadar. We can also turn dead people into spectres, but at this level that doesn't do much for us except to freak people out.

Level 20: Warlock (7) Level 4 spells: Shadow of Moil.

So we end with Divine Soul 11 / Hexblade 7, Paladin 2. We have maxed out the only stat we care about (Charisma) and picked up Elven Accuracy and War Caster as feats.

Our ultimate Nova involves making 3 attacks: booming blade for 80 average damage (1d8 + 13 slashing + 3d8 thunder + 5d8 Eldritch Smite + 6d8 Divine Smite) + twinned booming blade (second target) for 58 average damage (1d8 + 13 slashing + 3d8 thunder + 6d8 Divine Smite) + Green flame blade for 58 average damage (1d8 + 13 slashing + 3d8 fire + 6d8 divine smite) + 19 (3d8+5) fire damage to the second target and each target takes an additional 18 (4d8) thunder damage if they happen to live and try to move. All of that without needing to crit, which we do on a 19.

That boss combat goes like his:

Round 1: cast Greater Invisibility (twin it on the party rogue for shenanigans) and hexblades curse on boss, move around behind him, or wherever we can go to prevent him approaching allies without getting boomed.

Round 2: Murder, maybe quicken scatter if the baddies slipped past you.

Round 3: More Murder

Keravath
2019-05-16, 02:09 PM
1) Your combat examples don't mention needing thirsting blade since you don't use the extra attack feature
2) For most other players the extra attack feature wouldn't be available until level 12 when you take warlock level 5
3) You are casting twinned booming blade which requires two adjacent targets and also (presumably) quickened green flame blade which also requires two adjacent targets. There are typically a lot of times when there aren't two adjacent targets. Often boss fights have a boss and some minions but they don't necessarily stand within 5 feet of each other.
4) Quicken costs 2 sorcery points, Twin costs 1 sorcery point for a cantrip. This is 3 sorcery points/round. At level 20, you will have 3 rounds of combat when you can do this before having to start converting spell slots to sorcery points instead of using them for smites.
5) You don't even get twin/quicken until level 9 ... before that it will be either 2 attacks from thirsting blade or one booming blade per turn. Level 9 is pretty far into the game before your concept even gets started and in this case with only 3 sorcery points you will be able to do it exactly ONCE before having to sacrifice spell slots for sorcery points assuming that the targets are lined up in a favorable way.
6) You don't get your third warlock invocation slot until warlock 5 which is level 12 in your build. Eldritch Smite requires an invocation. So if you want to Eldritch Smite before level 12 you will have to drop either Thirsting blade or Devil's sight.

Yes, it could be a very flavorful and fun build to play. It has the possibility of doing a lot of damage in one combat round if you happen to get a crit and have both a warlock and paladin spell slot available. However, over a full day of adventuring, you may find that it doesn't feel as "powerful" as the theory crafting of potential damage might lead you to believe.

whiplashomega
2019-05-16, 03:07 PM
1) Your combat examples don't mention needing thirsting blade since you don't use the extra attack feature
2) For most other players the extra attack feature wouldn't be available until level 12 when you take warlock level 5
3) You are casting twinned booming blade which requires two adjacent targets and also (presumably) quickened green flame blade which also requires two adjacent targets. There are typically a lot of times when there aren't two adjacent targets. Often boss fights have a boss and some minions but they don't necessarily stand within 5 feet of each other.
4) Quicken costs 2 sorcery points, Twin costs 1 sorcery point for a cantrip. This is 3 sorcery points/round. At level 20, you will have 3 rounds of combat when you can do this before having to start converting spell slots to sorcery points instead of using them for smites.
5) You don't even get twin/quicken until level 9 ... before that it will be either 2 attacks from thirsting blade or one booming blade per turn. Level 9 is pretty far into the game before your concept even gets started and in this case with only 3 sorcery points you will be able to do it exactly ONCE before having to sacrifice spell slots for sorcery points assuming that the targets are lined up in a favorable way.
6) You don't get your third warlock invocation slot until warlock 5 which is level 12 in your build. Eldritch Smite requires an invocation. So if you want to Eldritch Smite before level 12 you will have to drop either Thirsting blade or Devil's sight.

Yes, it could be a very flavorful and fun build to play. It has the possibility of doing a lot of damage in one combat round if you happen to get a crit and have both a warlock and paladin spell slot available. However, over a full day of adventuring, you may find that it doesn't feel as "powerful" as the theory crafting of potential damage might lead you to believe.

1. They don't, but I do mention picking up Thirsting Blade. If I had to get to warlock 5 for it I would probably prioritize that over sorcerer 2 and 3, so you would be at Sorcerer 1, Paladin 2, Warlock 5 before finishing with Sorcerer.
2. Yes, the super nova burns an unbelievably large number of resources in a very short amount of time, this is typical of Sorcadin builds. My expectation would be that in a standard round this wouldn't be the case. If you aren't in the BIG fight of the day, 2 attacks plus an occasional smite or useful spell cast still keeps you in line with most melee characters.
3. I try to create builds such that you are getting new cool features or getting serious improvements all the time until the end of the campaign. Sure, you don't have all the cool features at level 6, or 8, or even 10. In tiers 1 and 2 you are essentially a Pallock who took a level of sorcerer for the con save proficiency and a slight boost to slot progression. In Tier 3 and 4, after exhausting the list of features we want from the first 2 classes, we move into Sorcerer to get spell slots as fast as possible and metamagic to help with Action Economy.
4. I specifically mention dropping Devil's Sight for Eldritch Smite, as well as dropping Darkness as a known spell. I'm not a big fan of the darkness + devil's sight combo because in my experience it mucks up the party as a whole for a minor benefit to one character. Advantage can be acquired a LOT of ways. As a result, once the build has other options, I drop it like a hot potato.

whiplashomega
2019-05-17, 01:27 PM
Alright, attempt to to create approximately the same build in a way that gives us better power at earlier levels using RAI.

Race: Half-elf, because it simply is the best race for these builds. This is a face/sneak character OOC so grab slight of hand and acrobatics with skill versatility
Background: Urban bounty hunter (SCAG) or Spy (PHB), grabbing deception and stealth as well as thieves tools prof
Alignment: Lawful neutral
Point buy stats: Str 13, Dex 14(+1 from half-elf), Con 14(+1 from half-elf), int 8, wis 11, Cha 17(+2 from half-elf, at our table this is an 18 because we use a 30 pt, max 16 pt buy, but I digress)
Level 1: Sorcerer (1) (divine soul) cantrips: minor illusion, prestidigitation, toll the dead, booming blade. 1st level spells: bless (law affinity), sanctuary, magic missile.
Current slots: 2 level 1 standard slots

Level 2: Warlock (1) (hexblade) cantrips: eldritch blast, green flame blade. Level 1 spells: Hex, Shield. Hex Warrior, Hexblade's Curse.
Current slots: 1 level 1 warlock slots, 2 level 1 standard slots

Level 3: Warlock (2) (hexblade) Level 1 spells: armor of agathys. Eldritch Invocations: Devil's sight, agonizing blast. These provide some cheese and versatility, but are really just placeholders for now. We also pick up our second warlock spell slot, so that's good.
Current slots: 2 level 1 warlock slots, 2 level 1 standard slots

Level 4: Warlock (3) Level 2 spells: Darkness. Warlock Invocations: Switch Agonizing Blast for Improved Pact Weapon.
Current slots: 2 level 2 warlock slots, 2 level 1 standard slots

Level 5: Warlock (4) Level 2 spells: Misty step. ABI: If we are using standard point buy and have an odd number in CHA, take Elven Accuracy. If our CHA is at least 18, take War Caster. If we for some reason have a CHA of 16 or 14 take +2 CHA.
Current slots: 2 level 2 warlock slots, 2 level 1 standard slots

Level 6: Warlock (5) Level 2 spells: switch darkness for mirror image. Level 3 spells: Warlock (5) Level 3 spells: good options include Enemies Abound, Fly, Hypnotic Pattern, and Thunder Step, picking whichever one fills a party need. Warlock invocations: Switch devil's sight for thirsting blade. Add Eldritch Smite Current slots: 2 level 3 warlock slots, 2 level 1 standard slots

Level 7: Paladin (1) divine sense, lay on hands
Current slots: 2 level 3 warlock slots, 2 level 1 standard slots

Level 8: Paladin (2) Divine smite, paladin spellcasting. Current slots: 2 level 3 warlock slots, 3 level 1 standard slots

Level 9: Sorcerer (2) Font of Magic. Level 1 spells: Take whatever you like, I picked Disguise Self for some OOC help, but Healing Word is another good choice. We also pick up 2nd level standard spell slots at this level.
Current slots: 2 level 3 warlock slots, 4 level 1 standard slots, 2 level 2 standard slots

Level 10: Sorcerer (3) Level 2 spells: We already have mirror image and misty step from warlock, so we'll pick up web so we can give ourselves advantage in a pinch without disrupting our party with darkness cheese. Metamagic: Quicken Spell, Twin Spell. All of the key features are now online, from here it's just picking up more levels in sorcerer.
Current slots: 2 level 3 warlock slots, 4 level 1 standard slots, 3 level 2 standard slots

Level 11: Sorcerer (4) Level 2 spells: We'll pick up blindness/deafness for another potential advantage proc, this one not requiring concentration and targeting CON rather than DEX/STR. Second ABI, If we took +2 CHA or Elven Accuracy at Level 5, we want War Caster. Otherwise we want to boost our CHA
Current slots: 2 level 3 warlock slots, 4 level 1 standard slots, 3 level 2 standard slots, 2 level 3 standard slots

Level 12: Sorcerer (5) Level 3 spells: Spirit Guardians, because we want to make it even harder for enemies to walk away from us, while making them REALLY want to walk away from us.
Current slots: 2 level 3 warlock slots, 4 level 1 standard slots, 3 level 2 standard slots, 3 level 3 standard slots

Level 13: Sorcerer (6) Level 3 spells: A LOT of good options here, but I'll go with Haste. We pick up our first 4th level spell slot, catching us up with a full class Paladin for standard slots, but we also have our 2 3rd level warlock slots. We also get empowered healing, a nice boon to the whole parties durability.
Current slots: 2 level 3 warlock slots, 4 level 1 standard slots, 3 level 2 standard slots, 3 level 3 standard slots, 1 level 4 standard slot

Level 14: Sorcerer (7) Level 4 spells: also a lot of good options, I like Greater Invisibility here for a no-save advantage bonus. Quicken it to minimize action economy loss, or twin it to give the boost to yourself and an ally.
Current slots: 2 level 3 warlock slots, 4 level 1 standard slots, 3 level 2 standard slots, 3 level 3 standard slots, 2 level 4 standard slot

Level 15: Sorcerer (8) Level 4 spells: I like Storm Sphere or Polymorph as good options, I'll go with Storm Sphere. 3rd ABI, take the last of the three original options that you haven't yet.
Current slots: 2 level 3 warlock slots, 4 level 1 standard slots, 3 level 2 standard slots, 3 level 3 standard slots, 3 level 4 standard slot, 1 level 5 standard slot

Level 16: Sorcerer (9) Level 5 spells: Pick up what the party needs, Greater Restoration, Mass Cure Wounds, and Raise Dead are all good choices if you happen to be the parties only healer. Otherwise if you'd like to stick to offensive or control, go with Animate Objects or Cloudkill. There's nothing like dumping out 10 pebbles from a little bag and having them do 30 damage a round as a bonus action for the rest of the combat.
Current slots: 2 level 3 warlock slots, 4 level 1 standard slots, 3 level 2 standard slots, 3 level 3 standard slots, 3 level 4 standard slot, 2 level 5 standard slots

Level 17: Sorcerer (10) Level 5 spells: I like Mass Cure Wounds if you picked up Animate Objects last level. More metamagic options here, I like subtle spell and heighten spell.
Current slots: 2 level 3 warlock slots, 4 level 1 standard slots, 3 level 2 standard slots, 3 level 3 standard slots, 3 level 4 standard slot, 2 level 5 standard slots, 1 level 6 standard slot

Level 18: Sorcerer (11) Level 6 spells: I would pick Scatter here, allowing you to set up the battlefield as it most helps you and your party.
Current slots: 2 level 3 warlock slots, 4 level 1 standard slots, 3 level 2 standard slots, 3 level 3 standard slots, 3 level 4 standard slot, 2 level 5 standard slots, 1 level 6 standard slot

Level 19: Sorcerer (12)
Current slots: 2 level 3 warlock slots, 4 level 1 standard slots, 3 level 2 standard slots, 3 level 3 standard slots, 3 level 4 standard slot, 2 level 5 standard slots, 1 level 6 standard slot, 1 level 7 standard slot

Level 20: Sorcerer (13) Level 7 spells: I like Crown of Stars
Current slots: 2 level 3 warlock slots, 4 level 1 standard slots, 3 level 2 standard slots, 3 level 3 standard slots, 3 level 4 standard slot, 2 level 5 standard slots, 1 level 6 standard slot, 1 level 7 standard slot

paladinn
2019-05-17, 09:59 PM
Here's my sorlocadin build:

Point buy:
Str 13 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 12 Cha 15
Variant Human for Cha +1, Con +1, Polearm Master
Paladin for Wis & Cha prof, Heavy armor
Using spear w PAM for an "extra attack" out of the gate until I pick up glaive later.

Lvl 1. Paladin 1 for hp, Divine Sense, Lay on Hands

2. Hexblade 1 for Hexblade Curse, Cha SADness
Eldritch Blast, Booming Blade; Shield

3. Paladin 2 - Divine Smite, Dueling style; Bless

4. Paladin 3 - Vengeance oath, Divine Health
Hunter's Mark

5. Paladin 4 - ASI (+2 Cha)

6. Paladin 5 - Extra attack
Hold Person, Misty Step

7. Hexblade 2 - Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast
Hex

8. Paladin 6 - Aura/Protection

9. Divine Soul 1
Light, Mage Hand, Sacred Flame, Toll the Dead
Healing Word

10. Divine Soul 2 - sorcery pts
Absorb Elements

11. Divine Soul 3
Quicken, Twin Spell
Scorching Ray, Invisibility

12. Divine Soul 4 - ASI (+2 Cha)
Spiritual Weapon

13. Divine Soul 5 - Fireball, Revivify

From there, either finish DS or Paladin or mix it up. I wanted a build that was good melee, good ranged, and ok with healing.

Thoughts?

whiplashomega
2019-05-20, 10:16 AM
Here's my sorlocadin build:

From there, either finish DS or Paladin or mix it up. I wanted a build that was good melee, good ranged, and ok with healing.

Thoughts?

It's a good build, uses hexblade as a minor dip, which I've seen around a lot, grabbing 6 levels of Paladin for that juicy aura of protection. It is a good all-around build that I think would be fun to play. I personally was really trying to maximize that nova capability, which is why I went for 5 levels of warlock to get eldritch smite and dropped the extra Paladin levels. Another thing you can do if you get at least 3 levels of warlock is take Improved Pact Weapon, which lets you create charisma based longbows, not as good as a fully pumped up Eldritch Blast.

One of the issues I was working around with my build is the fact that Variant Human is not allowed at my table. As soon as it is it immediately becomes the best race for any multiclass build period.

Back to your build, I wouldn't go more than 6 levels of Paladin. Switching to Divine Soul Sorcerer straight to the end gives you that delicious smite fuel much faster.

whiplashomega
2019-05-20, 01:38 PM
I just realized that if you take Greater Restoration as your 5th level sorcerer spell at level 16, you can take advantage of coffeelock cheese as well for essentially infinite smititude.

Man_Over_Game
2019-05-20, 01:46 PM
I just realized that if you take Greater Restoration as your 5th level sorcerer spell at level 16, you can take advantage of coffeelock cheese as well for essentially infinite smititude.

I'd be careful with that. I don't consider any build valid if it requires a DM to make a ruling in your favor. Otherwise, all those dumb Sorcerer King builds would be dominating our tables.

Personally, though, I'd swap out the Divine Soul Sorcerer for Shadow, and then replace Devil's Sight for something else. It accomplishes the same thing for cheaper, and the spells you'd get out of Divine Soul aren't enough to justify the subclass.