Easiest ( less difficult ) ways to achieve eternal life for a low level human?

[Conradine]

Let's say we have our Average Joe human. He wants to live forever or, if nothing better is avaiable, even achieve undead eternity.

First question: what would be the easiest route? Eating human flesh would be enough for becoming a ghoul? Simply willing to not die in order to become a ghost?


Second question: if he becomes an undead and stay undead for centuries, then may he be resurrected normally? ( the problem with resurrection is that once the soul becomes a petitioner it forgets the previous life; so I guess that a soul who never became a petitioner has not the same time limit )

[heavyfuel]

Don't know the answer to question 2, but becoming Undead is easy enough. If you want to become an undead and retain a non-evil alignment it's harder, but doable. Necropolitan comes to mind, although they are campaign specific and it requires you to get on the good side of an organization)

As for non-undead immortality? Beats me

[Vizzerdrix]

Be an elan or warforged, or killorean. Or just take wedded to history feat.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

You're looking for a feat called Wedded to History, from Dragon #354

[Conradine]

Wedded to History and similar talents aren't something your Average Joe commoner has access to. I mean "achieved immortality / undeath" by an average human.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Necropolitan, then. That requires ECL 3 and no real abilities on Joe's part.

[heavyfuel]

Be an elan or warforged, or killorean.

This is easy, usually. This is not so easy for a human.

[Vizzerdrix]

This is easy, usually. This is not so easy for a human.

That is why I also mentioned the wedded to history feat.

[RoboEmperor]

Have a Shadow kill you. Savage Species explicitly says the created shadow and you are the same creature. It even suggests dying to a shadow as a way to become a monster.

[Luccan]

I mean, becoming an elan has no requirements. They're literally all former humans, you just need to be selected by the elders or council or whatever. Then you got through some vague ritual and pop out a level 1 elan. With all your memories in tact. Of course, you can't do this yourself and I guess the average Joe probably won't interest the elan elders but it seems the simplest method

[Ravens_cry]

I mean, becoming an elan has no requirements. They're literally all former humans, you just need to be selected by the elders or council or whatever. Then you got through some vague ritual and pop out a level 1 elan. With all your memories in tact. Of course, you can't do this yourself and I guess the average Joe probably won't interest the elan elders but it seems the simplest method
"Yeah, this is Joe. He got made an Elan, because his uncle donated the chairs for Friday night bingo for the council of elders. Nepotism, am I right?":smallbiggrin:

[Pippin]

Every full moon, turn a pebble into a human via Polymorph Any Object, then cast Steal Life (see BoVD) on them.

Oh sorry, I missed the low level part.

[mabriss lethe]

There's a way to do it from the very beginning at level 1. Take Death devotion as your 1st level feat, empower a weapon and then cut yourself with it. Voluntarily fail the save. As a one HD creature, the the negative level kills you. Whenever the clock strikes midnight, you rise as a wight.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Immortality is really easy in 3.5. (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1138&bih=562&ei=_LreXJOTCNLYsAXU4664Aw&q=D%26D+3.5+giantitp+immortality+site%3Awww.gianti tp.com&oq=D%26D+3.5+giantitp+immortality+site%3Awww.giant itp.com&gs_l=psy-ab.3...5655.5796..7088...0.0..0.108.190.1j1......0 ....1..gws-wiz.81Ilwz2_2Go)

[Conradine]

Mabye I didn't explain myself.

I meant "what a commoner with an immortality wish should reasonably do?" ( beside giving up, obviously ).
How could he learn of the mere existence of undeads and life prolonging magic, since he starts as an average - therefore pretty ignorant- commoner?

Consult the local witches / adepts / hedge wizards?
Move in a town or city with an open public library?
Become an initiate at the local temple?
Join a monastery with a good library?
All the above?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Mabye I didn't explain myself.

I meant "what a commoner with an immortality wish should reasonably do?" ( beside giving up, obviously ).
How could he learn of the mere existence of undeads and life prolonging magic, since he starts as an average - therefore pretty ignorant- commoner?

Consult the local witches / adepts / hedge wizards?
Move in a town or city with an open public library?
Become an initiate at the local temple?
Join a monastery with a good library?
All the above?Become fodder for the next necromancer who wanders through?

[Conradine]

Becoming a zombie isn't immortality in any sense and, beside that, there's no guarantee of the outcome.

[heavyfuel]

Honestly, the best thing for him is to grab a crossbow and light armor with ou acp and go adventuring, learn new things (aka, level up) to try to find the answers he seeks.

I don't think the local library will have the answers he seeks, and even it does, it's not like he has the knowledge to understand any of it.

Joining a Wizard Guild or something like that to retrain his commoner level before adventuring is probably wise

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Honestly, the best thing for him is to grab a crossbow and light armor with ou acp and go adventuring, learn new things (aka, level up) to try to find the answers he seeks.

I don't think the local library will have the answers he seeks, and even it does, it's not like he has the knowledge to understand any of it.

Joining a Wizard Guild or something like that to retrain his commoner level before adventuring is probably wiseOr he could optimize that commoner level to make his later spellcaster levels more potent.

Tomb Tainted Soul + Quick Draw + Infested with Chickens + greater consumptive field + Fell Drain + Destructive Retribution = hen grenades: the other wight meat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19465550&postcount=3).

[Particle_Man]

I would pal around with druids and try to become one or failing that the very best friend of one. Serial reincarnation as a young adult in various bodies is a pretty good deal.

[ShurikVch]

Aren't Kaorti, being Outsiders (extraplanar), everliving?
If yes - then 300 gp for a dose of Green Rapture, and 250 gp - for Resin Suit; starting gear of 1st-level NPC is 900 gp...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Retrain your 1st level or human feat for Otherworldly. You've now got the outsider type, and immortality is part and parcel of that.

Alternately, start as a neraph. They're +0 LA outsiders, too.

[Conradine]

In percentage, what chance would you give to an immortality seeker who dies while still clinging desperately to life, to rise as a Ghost?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

In percentage, what chance would you give to an immortality seeker who dies while still clinging desperately to life, to rise as a Ghost?How important to the plot is it? The answer means the chances are either 0% or 100%.

Also, did he have enough XP to gain a level when he died (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a)?

[denthor]

Since you asked.

Go to a Lawful Evil church. Tell them your goal. Have them get a devil to give it to you. Promise you will not miss that soul thing.

You may not like the final outcome however.

[Conradine]

Yes, I know that everything depends on the plot, but, let's pretend for the sake of the argument that we are trying to picture a fantasy world which is internally consistent ( verisimilitude ) and let's set aside plot necessities for a moment.

Let's talk about "standard" d&d 3.5 world ( if such a thing exists ).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yes, I know that everything depends on the plot, but, let's pretend for the sake of the argument that we are trying to picture a fantasy world which is internally consistent ( verisimilitude ) and let's set aside plot necessities for a moment.

Let's talk about "standard" d&d 3.5 world ( if such a thing exists ).Commoner is upset at his lot in life.

Commoner kicks a kitten out of frustration.

Kitten turns on blender mode.

Commoner is rendered into an explosion of fine, red mist.

Kitten gains XP.

Kitten is evolving!

Kitten evolves into: adult cat!

Adult cat uses: buzzsaw-purr!

It's super effective!

[Maat Mons]

Tangentially, if Elans wanted, they could turn almost all of humanity into Elans, leaving just a small breeding population from which to produce future Elans.

It wouldn't have to be that many humans, because if they play their cards right, the death rate of Elans should be pretty low. And since Elans can't have children, they won't have to worry about their long lives causing explosive population growth. If they managed the human population correctly, they could even guarantee transformation into Elans for every single human after they finish producing however many offspring the government assigns them.

So what do you think? Utopia or dystopia?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

What happens to the occasional Octo-Mom?

[Luccan]

Tangentially, if Elans wanted, they could turn almost all of humanity into Elans, leaving just a small breeding population from which to produce future Elans.

It wouldn't have to be that many humans, because if they play their cards right, the death rate of Elans should be pretty low. And since Elans can't have children, they won't have to worry about their long lives causing explosive population growth. If they managed the human population correctly, they could even guarantee transformation into Elans for every single human after they finish producing however many offspring the government assigns them.

So what do you think? Utopia or dystopia?

I have a Psionics only setting where the Elan have done just that. Since becoming an elan is class based, both societally and mechanically (pretty much only psions and psychic warriors are made elans), it's most definitely a dystopia.

[tiercel]

And since Elans can't have children

Er.... well, the racial description says

“Thus, elans do not reproduce biologically, but rather psionically, through a mysterious psionic ritual known only to elans.”

That could mean they are unable to reproduce at all, but could also mean that elans can’t biologically create more elans (because only the ritual does that; elan offspring might just be human). So in that sense, if elans can’t give birth to elans, “do not reproduce biologically.”

Elans may even generally choose not to reproduce, because of wanting to leave all that meatspace stuff behind or because it would be too awful to be immortal but only ever have mortal children who mighn’t ever be elan-ified and so an elan parent outlives all their children until they simply decide “nope.”

[Maat Mons]

Psychic Warriors? I was kind of imagining my Elan dystopia consisting exclusively of Psions, Ardents, and Wilders. Those are the classes that can potentially manifest Psychic Chirurgery. "I'll add one of my powers to your list if you add one of your powers to my list." If you're going to be a manifester and live forever, why hot have all the powers?

For anyone wondering how you get Psychic Chirurgery without being a Telepath, the answer is that someone with Psychic Chirurgery uses Psychic Chirurgery to give you Psychic Chirurgery. ... There was probably a less redundant way of saying that.

[tiercel]

For anyone wondering how you get Psychic Chirurgery without being a Telepath, the answer is that someone with Psychic Chirurgery uses Psychic Chirurgery to give you Psychic Chirurgery. ... There was probably a less redundant way of saying that.

How many psychics could a psychic chirurgeon Psychic Chirurgery if a psychic chirurgeon with Psychic Chirurgery psychically chirurgerized Psychic Chirurgery onto psychics by using Psychic Chirurgery?

(Er.... because of the XP cost and all. *coughs*. Also, trying spelling that out ten times fast without using cut-and-paste!)

[Luccan]

Psychic Warriors? I was kind of imagining my Elan dystopia consisting exclusively of Psions, Ardents, and Wilders. Those are the classes that can potentially manifest Psychic Chirurgery. "I'll add one of my powers to your list if you add one of your powers to my list." If you're going to be a manifester and live forever, why hot have all the powers?

For anyone wondering how you get Psychic Chirurgery without being a Telepath, the answer is that someone with Psychic Chirurgery uses Psychic Chirurgery to give you Psychic Chirurgery. ... There was probably a less redundant way of saying that.

It is a fairly caste-like system. Psi-Warriors and Psions can be trained and controlled in government run schools. Wilder fluff indicates they always develop naturally, so there's less control over who becomes one (though an elan Wilder is certainly possible, they prefer as few random elements as possible). As for Ardents, they tend to eschew religion and the elan power structure in my setting is partly dependant on their elans-first, humanity-second, everyone-else-last dogma.

Anyway, Psychic Warriors tend to make up the military and peacekeeping sub-caste of the elan caste and Psions usually operate other parts of society. A religious Ardent Elan might be a high priest, but most elan religious officials are still Psions. There's just more of them. Also, I tend not to assume certain rules abuses* are being used unless I want to explore that concept specifically

*That sounds more accusatory than it's supposed to. What I mean is, everyone having Psychic Chirurgery would be an interesting world to explore, but requires a little more meta than I wanted or was going for.

[Conradine]

Err...

that is extremely intersting but, gentlemen, my question...?

In percentage, what chance would you give to an immortality seeker who dies while still clinging desperately to life, to rise as a Ghost?

[cartejos]

Err...

that is extremely intersting but, gentlemen, my question...?

In percentage, what chance would you give to an immortality seeker who dies while still clinging desperately to life, to rise as a Ghost?

Ghost description that I found: Spirit of a Creature with Unfinished Business.

So, if something tragic were to happen to the commoner, and just before dying the commoner set his sights on repaying the favor, he could rise as a ghost. The game gives no percentages, if you don't want to make it up yourself, maybe try to find something else.

[Luccan]

Err...

that is extremely intersting but, gentlemen, my question...?

In percentage, what chance would you give to an immortality seeker who dies while still clinging desperately to life, to rise as a Ghost?

The problem is, there's no guide for it.

Perhaps base it on level/total HD? So the stronger the life force of a person, the more likely their return? Let's say a 20th level character has an... 80% chance to return as a ghost (if they meet the other requirements. 80% to give a good chance but avoid the certainty of ghostly returns). And we'll make it a linear growth for the sake of ease. So a first level character has a 4% chance of returning from the dead as a ghost.

Alternately, make it a will save. Probably a high DC, so a commoner might not even be able to make it at early levels (it should probably be higher than a 20, otherwise at least 1 in 20 commoners would rise as ghosts).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It'd be a houserule, but 2% per lvl of coming back IF an NPC has a really driving reason for sticking around? Greater for NPlotCs and PCs, of course.

[Biguds]

I think that there is one book from Ravenloft that expands the ghost turning thing.
It's charisma and HD based, if my memory serves my right.

[Conradine]

Circumstantial bonus for unfinished business and / or heinous actions?

I read a Dragon Magazine issue 336. Article, Birth of the Dead. It exposed circumstances that can cause a character to spontaneously come back as undead.

Morgh - unrepentant murder and shameful execution
Spectre - wrath and violent death
Drowned - executed by drowning ( walking the plank )
Famine spirit - a life of starvation and basic needs, followed by an act of betrayal
Effige - violent death by burning ( arson or stake )
Ghost - unfinished business, must believe his death was caused by an hostile act
Ghoul - cannibalism, literal or metaphoric ( loan sharks, corrupt tax collectors, greedy landlords )
Ghast - being killed while committing cannibalism
Vampire - suicide ( very rare, only in culture where suicide is shameful )
Shadow - death by weakness ( poison, old age, illness ) perceived as weakness
Wraith - sadistic murder
Sword wraith - obsessive desire to keep fighting
Wight - slow, agonizing death


I wonder what could happen if someone manage to satisfy multiple prerequisites.



I think that there is one book from Ravenloft that expands the ghost turning thing.
It's charisma and HD based, if my memory serves my right

Thanks man, I'll search that immediately.

[Maat Mons]

Being killed while committing cannibalism is easy enough. You just get a fellow immortality seeker, you each cut off a piece of the other and eat it, and then you both stab each other. That's two people killed while committing cannibalism.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Being killed while committing cannibalism is easy enough. You just get a fellow immortality seeker, you each cut off a piece of the other and eat it, and then you both stab each other. That's two people killed while committing cannibalism.Well, you wouldn't even need to cut anything off if you've got...ahem...swallow whole...

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I'll chip in with Wendigo (Fiend Folio, I think?), a curse that turns you into a fey (rules for fey lifespans are left deliberately ambiguous, but immortal is one of the common paradigms) as a punishment for cannibalism. For the purpose of this thread, that makes essentially a less risky ghoul, as you don't have to die for the transformation, and can just keep committing acts of cannibalism until the curse takes. And if you get killed before that happens, you've still got decent odds of turning into a ghoul/ghast.

[Malphegor]

Have you considered just Polymorph Any Object-ing yourself into a younger version of yourself (admittedly that's not low level but something to aim for)? You've got your younger self's stats and appearance, it's permanent duration and you can keep doing it over and over so you end up just layering levels of being X age so dispel magic has trouble removing it.

Avoid anti-magic fields though.

[Conradine]

In your opinion, general knowledge about undeads ( not necromantic spells but notions like "unrepentant serial killers sometimes rise as Morghs ) can be found in temples and monasteries of Pelor? After all, Pelor's followers specialize in destroying undeads.

But , more important, is common knowledge freely given in a "standard" setting?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You've got your younger self's statsYou mean the stats for an average human, which are all 10s?

You're better off PAO'ing into something better than your old self, but with a human appearance. At least doppelgangers can change their appearance (admittedly, you'd need Assume Supernatural Ability for it), and they have somewhat better stats.


it's permanent duration and you can keep doing it over and over so you end up just layering levels of being X age so dispel magic has trouble removing it.

Avoid anti-magic fields though.Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood has Devices, which are (Ex) "magic" items. You can craft Device scrolls so dispels and antimagic fields are no problem.

[noob]

Steal Life can be cast on yourself until you drain enough for lowering your casting under the minimum for casting the spell at least.

[darkela5]

Id say the easiest way is:
1- Be a lv 1 human paladin
2- pazuzu, pazuzu, pazuzu.
3- Use your wish
4- ??????
5- Profit

p.s. Not for lactose intolerants