Rules for Being Evil

[blackjack50]

So I figured we might post up some good ideas on how to be evil and what are some rules that one should adhere to. Especially in a mixed group of alignment.

Rules:

1) Do not harm/injure the party.
2) Your backstory and motives should explain why you are with the party.

I’d say that is a good number one and 2. What else?

[denthor]

We need healing so I tolerate an evil cleric.

[Constructman]

Evil you may be, but cunning you must be. Do not let your evil tendencies be a liability for the party on account of your stupidity. If you are unsure of how stupid is too stupid, use the party Paladin or Cleric as a measuring stick.

[Conradine]

An evil character can be a loyal, kind, reliable, accomodating, even generous party member.
He does not need to, but he can.

All it takes is to have done even a single seriously Evil action and feel no remorse ( o very little remorse ).
It's not even necessary to be a criminal for the law.

Let's take for example Trendan Nash , from the Book of Vile Darkness. He actually does nothing. He simply accepts gold for turning his eyes another way while children disappear under his nose. He's a school director , a cultured, civilized person who would never stab you between the shoulders to pickpocket your purse. And he's rotten to the core.

Because, and that is a sad truth, Evil is easy.

[bid]

3> Make an effort. No storytelling, no evil.

[Gryndle]

my basic rule about evil PCs is this: Its ok to play an evil character, but it is NOT ok to be evil towards other PLAYERS

[Zhorn]

1 - Have a reason why you want to keep your party alive.
It's easier to get in and out of major cities without being arrested when the paladin has a use for you.
The party is a natural magnet for powerful artefacts/treasure, and you're not giving that up
Enemy of my enemy...
'Worthy opponent' combined with 'nobody kills you but me'
etc


and 2 - Give the party a reason to keep you around.
When hunting monsters, having a monster in the group helps
The vile bloodletting you do allows innocents to stay innocent
Your death would result in WORSE conditions for the party
A unique skill set that the party highly desires
etc


These two points should go for every party member regardless of alignment. If the character's life would be easier or safer with someone from the party 'removed', then that's where the mistakes were made in forming the party.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

So I figured we might post up some good ideas on how to be evil and what are some rules that one should adhere to. Especially in a mixed group of alignment.

Rules:

1) Do not harm/injure the party.
2) Your backstory and motives should explain why you are with the party.

I’d say that is a good number one and 2. What else?

Don't play Stupid Evil. Your goals as an evil character shouldn't conflict with the party's. That means when they're thinking about doing small acts of Good, you're focused on the big Evil. If they're focused on a big, cosmic good, that's fine; make yourself useful enough and they'll tolerate lots of petty cruelties. There has to be a reason for a character to be Evil other than 'just because'.

The Dragonlance novels are based on notes from module playthroughs, and they're a decent primer, actually. Raistlin doesn't fight the party; he doesn't work against them; he actively exerts himself and risks his life to help them succeed. He fills gaps that they absolutely need. But every step of the way he's focused - totally focused - on his own personal advancement. And, critically, at the point where his needs completely diverge from those of the party, he becomes an NPC. That's kind of important. Everyone at the table needs to be playing the same game, and often evil characters in a mixed-alignment party lead to situations where one player is trying to play a different campaign.

(Yes, he's neutral through most of the novels, but part of the point is that he's perpetually on the precipice of falling to evil.)

[Keltest]

I think your rules 1 and 2 can be combined into a single rule: What is best for Me in this situation? a vast majority of the time this should be sticking with the party even when you would prefer to do something else, because the party brings strength, protection and legitimacy. Likewise, making enemies of the party is not in your best interests, because theyre powerful and, being adventurers, carry grudges beyond all reason.

Pretty much all your decision making should stem from this thought process. Evil is selfishness and ruthlessness. There needs to be something in it for you, and that something needs to outweigh the costs of obtaining it.

[Kurt Kurageous]

I think your rules 1 and 2 can be combined into a single rule: What is best for Me in this situation? Pretty much all your decision making should stem from this thought process. Evil is selfishness and ruthlessness. There needs to be something in it for you, and that something needs to outweigh the costs of obtaining it.

This.

And know what your flavor of evil is. Be able to describe it. Be able to say aloud, "I'm evil because I do x."

I play a character based on Leon from the movie The Professional. My evil is I take orders from others for money to kill people. Killing without monetary reward is like doing pro bono work. My life had little meaning until I met Mathilda, who eventually became the daughter I never had. And Mathilda is played by another PC who I collaborated with OOG to make this happen.

People who lack moral development tend to portray evil in a cartoony or edge lord way. "I'm evil because I'm a homicidal psychopath."

Spare us. Don't. You're embarrassing us really really evil types with your backstabby dickery dock! <twirls mustache and grins>

[jjordan]

I think your rules 1 and 2 can be combined into a single rule: What is best for Me in this situation? a vast majority of the time this should be sticking with the party even when you would prefer to do something else, because the party brings strength, protection and legitimacy. Likewise, making enemies of the party is not in your best interests, because theyre powerful and, being adventurers, carry grudges beyond all reason.

Pretty much all your decision making should stem from this thought process. Evil is selfishness and ruthlessness. There needs to be something in it for you, and that something needs to outweigh the costs of obtaining it.That's how I see it. And there's a lot of room in there. You can be lawful evil, for example, and very invested in upholding the laws of society because you feel it's the best way to get what you want. You can be lawful evil and manipulate the laws of society to favor you and put others in a less favorable situation. You can be neutral evil and interested in your own well-being and not particularly interested in other people. You can be chaotic evil, totally self-interested and chafing at anything that restricts you from achieving your goals. But you can still be smart and capable of working with others because it helps you achieve your goals.

Characters that screw the party over, whatever their alignment, aren't much fun.

[Anderlith]

Evil is insidious. Encourage your party to be the ones getting their hands dirty not you, you just “can’t” bring yourself to do x which is what you led another character to suggest was the “only” way to solve an issue

[Particle_Man]

I would add don’t steal from other pcs; it could annoy their players.

Also, unless you are 100% certain everyone at the table is fine with it, avoid graphic stuff like torture and rape or other triggering issues.

[Doug Lampert]

I think your rules 1 and 2 can be combined into a single rule: What is best for Me in this situation? a vast majority of the time this should be sticking with the party even when you would prefer to do something else, because the party brings strength, protection and legitimacy. Likewise, making enemies of the party is not in your best interests, because theyre powerful and, being adventurers, carry grudges beyond all reason.

I largely agree with the above, and I'll add: You really do not want your rule 1 as a separate rule for an evil party.

The rule against PVP is simply that you must make a character who is both willing and able to be a useful member of a party and who won't pointlessly back-stab. But one of the most important controls on the actions of an evil character, is that if he's too much of a **** toward the rest of the party; well, the rest of the party is a band of violent thugs who kill people they don't like and take their stuff. You've just made yourself (a) available, (b) very disliked, (c) a legitimate target for any good or lawful party members, and (d) you are rich.

Tell the players, there's is no glowing sign on your forehead that says "PC", your character gets no extra slack beyond what the other characters would give another friend, acquaintance, or family member; and knowing this, your character is expected and required to play a member of the group that is both useful and helpful enough to the group that the rest of the group has a reason to want him around no matter how selfish and ruthless they are toward the rest of the world.

Put in an explicit "no PC vs. PC" rule, and all you've done is removed any and all ability to control on a character like the pre-faking character growth Belker.

[BloodOgre]

Really, we aren't just talking about rules for being evil. We are talking about rules for being evil and surviving within a party of other characters.

I have one rule: Put the party first... until it is time to put yourself first.

I think that encompasses all that has been said so far.

But, there have been times where I have had to tell players, if your character keeps doing that, the other characters are just going to leave him at the next town.

-=-=-=-
As far as DMing an evil character, we had a player who liked to play evil characters and thought it was fun to just kill everything and generally sowed chaos in the group. His PC got killed in the previous session and after an encounter we were to find the player's new character a prisoner chained to a wall in a cell. For the new character he decided to go with Tiefling and spoke a lot in Abbysal and generally taunted us as we were releasing other prisoners and insisted that he was a demon (as if his previous character hadn't been evil enough). Even the evil PCs in the group wanted nothing to do with him, so our characters left without freeing the new PC. So the player says, "Hey this is the introduction of my new character, you can't just leave me!" DM said, "Why not, that is completely in character for all of them. It is up to you to give them a reason to free you and accept you into the party." Sitting and the table and having a character is not a license to do whatever kind of stupid/evil thing you want. The DM can't force the party to accept you.

-=-=-=-
As for playing an evil character. One of the greatest joys I had was when we were near the end of OoTA and one of the players says said to me, "Wait a minute. I just realized. You are the most evil of all of us. You've just been using us!"

No one had realized I was playing an evil character the entire time. From the time my character had engineered not just our escape, but the escape of all the prisoners in the very first session, everyone had me pegged as the good guy. That was fun.

[Karnitis]

Similar to what others are saying,

3) Evil with a Purpose

If you're an ***hole, like, stealing candy and starting fights in bars, I'd honestly rather call yourself CN. We all know what 'Chaotic Neutral' really means.

When I hear Evil, I want there to be a reason, a guiding principle. Maybe you want to rule a kingdom without regard to its citizenry, fine. Maybe you want to steal enough gold you can live a life of luxury without work. Maybe you see everyone around you as weak and feel you should be treated as a superior being. All good.

But if you begrudgingly save the orphans from the fire, refuse to steal from the poor, and are only rude to people because of your internalized trust issues, you are an Anti-Hero-secretly-a-good-guy-please-unlock-my-backstory character, not actually EVIL.

[Spiritchaser]

1. Make very sure that everyone playing is cool with this being “one of those campaigns”

2. Agree to whatever rules everyone else wants (don’t agree too easily, that would be obvious)

3. Ruthlessly break those rules as and when the universe, and whatever twisted code you consider the to pass for ethics demand it. Don’t break faith for the small stuff, it has to be worth your while.

4. Don’t even blink in the face of their righteous fury

[Kyutaru]

Evil doesn't inherently mean Baby-kicker. There's no cruelty requirement to being an individually minded person who has no concern for other people's welfare. The only rules necessary are to avoid creating conflict to the aggravation of the rest of the party.

1) Don't hurt your party -- you signed up with them because you have common goals. Strength as a team is better for you as an individual and aligns with your best interests. Though when that stops being favorable to you, maybe leave one to die if the calculated risk is too high to save them unless they're vitally important to your success.

2) Backstory should explain yourself. The party needs to understand your motives and why you're with them if for no other reason than to avoid triggering your character just as you might trigger theirs. You may not agree with their "save the orphanage" plan but you're not going to walk away just because they are good Samaritans. You have other reasons for sticking around and can tolerate grunt work.

3) Don't be a Menace to South Central while drinking your juice in the hood. There's honestly no reason to pick a fight with every civilian who looks at you funny or to banter hostile words with people who try to be friendly. You're Evil, not Anti-social. Please keep courtesy in mind for your own sake, not for the benefit of society. Making an enemy of everyone you meet is not going to help you in the long run.

4) Don't kick the baby. As fun as it is to punt him across the room it's most likely not going to fly well with the party. Make decisions as a group, defer to democracy or your leader, and restrain whatever psychopathic impulses happen to bubble up. That doesn't mean you can't do things your way or take extreme measures or favor the "direct" approach. Just make sure it's a safe option before exposing yourself to capital punishment.

5) Avoid excessive greed. It's a fine thing to take what you want and have not a care. But that thing tends to lose you favor and actually sets you back. Express selfishness, fine. But bargain, deal, and compromise to ensure you don't gain a paltry trinket at the cost of something more significant. Sometimes it's better to, dare I say it, "think of others" -- bleugh -- to understand what may motivate them to become your enemy.

[redwizard007]

I've seen several posters so far that I'd let play evil PCs at my table.

The only rule I enforce with evil PCs, is shared by every other PC.

1. Don't be a ****.

That's literally it.

I take it for granted that players will find a reason to take part in the adventures. If they can't, or otherwise don't fit, then we retire them (sometimes violently.)

[djreynolds]

I have tried to not using alignment in games, and it has been very effective

Its really always hard to define, and even movies mess it up

In fictional D&D world, it might be the taking of life without a justifiable cause like: self-defense or killing sentient life when there are other means available for survival or to keep from starving

[XmonkTad]

5) Avoid excessive greed. It's a fine thing to take what you want and have not a care. But that thing tends to lose you favor and actually sets you back. Express selfishness, fine. But bargain, deal, and compromise to ensure you don't gain a paltry trinket at the cost of something more significant. Sometimes it's better to, dare I say it, "think of others" -- bleugh -- to understand what may motivate them to become your enemy.

Of all the rules here, this is one of the most important ones. I see this violated a lot because chaotic characters as much as evil ones will be greedy (or kleptomaniacs) and it makes them mindless and unreasonable party members because they're just going to steal things. The rule should also apply for for keeping game flow in mind, as asking if you can steal the candlesticks from the king's table in the middle of dinner is just annoying#KenderThings

[dragoeniex]

Golden Rule of playing evil characters: make it fun for your party- not just yourself. You can do this several ways.


Are there NPCs or places the group groans about in or out of character? Find reasons for your character to screw with those in the background and give your friends guilty pleasure in cheering for you. Focus your most evil tendencies on things like this- what your party would like to ruin if they didn't have all those pesky morals in the way.

Be evil for your teammates' benefit as well as your own. It can be weirdly endearing when you find out the really expensive thing that was just stolen/brutally liberated is the group serial killer's way of showing they care. Try to not do this in a way that will get said recipient killed later.

Have a dramatic, dark backstory that drove you to villainy? Take one of the less dramatic aspects of it and turn it into a pet peeve that drives you absolutely bonkers. Decades of obsessive studies? You fly off the handle at librarians and shopkeepers who don't properly organize their shelves and make it slightly harder to find things bc what is this flagrant disregard for my time, you rube??? Your idyllic country home burned down? You despise sheep bc someone important to you tried to save their prized livestock first. Find a reason to hate napkins- anything, really.

The reason this can be fun is it gives your teammates an opportunity to taunt you with random junk for some karma. You get to ham it up, and they get to occasionally derail your schemes by invoking your own dumb hang-ups.

Looking for a more dramatic bent than these? Come in with a selfish reason to kill one of the main villains or someone who caused a party member pain in their backstory.


TL;DR: Let your party enjoy having the token evil teammate, and you'll all win.

[Krobar]

I'm running a LE assassin right now in our game. His condensed backstory is he got his start as an investigator with the city watch. Got tired of the corruption, watching poor people get years of hard labor for petty crimes, and rich people commit serious crimes, pay a fine and walk free the same day. So he quit his job and took up adventuring to build his skill. He's willing to torture for information, or even to punish, and kills without mercy. In his eyes he's making the world a better place by brutally murdering people that deserve it.

It's all in how you spin it.

[Sigreid]

This is a two way street.

The Evil character(s)
1. Be someone the party can trust. This is easy to justify on an evil character as they are strong allies bound in blood and battle.
2. Don't actively antagonize the party by blatantly performing acts that they won't be able to morally stomach in front of them.

For the other characters
1. Don't try to punish the evil characters for acts against your moral code that your character would not be aware of.
2. Accept that while they should not be performing acts of deliberate, blatant evil within your awareness they are not going to be paragons of virtue. In other words, you're not Jimminey Cricket, don't do a lot of obnoxious preaching/badgering.

[DarkKnightJin]

1 - Have a reason why you want to keep your party alive.
It's easier to get in and out of major cities without being arrested when the paladin has a use for you.
The party is a natural magnet for powerful artefacts/treasure, and you're not giving that up
Enemy of my enemy...
'Worthy opponent' combined with 'nobody kills you but me'
etc


and 2 - Give the party a reason to keep you around.
When hunting monsters, having a monster in the group helps
The vile bloodletting you do allows innocents to stay innocent
Your death would result in WORSE conditions for the party
A unique skill set that the party highly desires
etc


These two points should go for every party member regardless of alignment. If the character's life would be easier or safer with someone from the party 'removed', then that's where the mistakes were made in forming the party.

I had a Lawful Evil EK in a party with 2 CG PCs and 2 CN PCs.
How did he keep them from just leaving him in a town and going on without him?
He was a skilled Herbalist, a fairly effective meat shield, and he took the time to think about how he could design and/or craft things for the rest of the party to be better. The new Hexblade that joined the party after a PC death (DM-player collab) figured out he was a skilled Smith, so he asked for a set of Breastplate armor. Which my guy made during some downtime.

Sadly, he's retired now, but I'm gonna bring that guy in as an NPC in the homebrew setting I'm slowly working on.
He'll still be LE, but also the only craftsman skilled enough to make any high-end magic item the party might want.

[Wryte]

I played a Lawful Evil conquest paladin briefly before the campaign ended abruptly due to DM burn out.

My defining moment came early in the campaign. Our party was traveling down a road when we were approached by a frantic woman claiming to have just escaped from a bandit camp, and begged for help. While the rest of the - mostly X Neutral - party questioned her for details about the camp and any rewards they might expect, I was already halfway to the camp on the basis that:

1: I was in desperate need of equipment, and I could take theirs.
2: I needed to get stronger, and slaughtering them would make me stronger.
3: Killing them would raise my reputation with the locals, earning me favorable treatment.
4: I'd have to wipe them out anyway once I usurped the crown and ruled these lands anyway, so might as well take care of it now.

My ultimate goal was to become the hero of the realm, so that when I eventually killed the king and took his crown, everyone from the commonfolk to the army to the nobles would already have been wishing for me to do so for ages.

[Greywander]

I feel like a lot of people are approaching this from the wrong angle. You have to consider the meta-game, and how an evil character can affect it.

Here's what I would say should be considered as sort of rules:

1. Fit in with the party.

Even excluding evil characters, there are an infinite number of party combinations that just don't work. If "it's what my character would do" would lead to your character not being part of the party, you should play a different character. You need to play a character who has a legitimate reason to be working with the party and who the party has a legitimate reason not to kick out, arrest, or kill. You can definitely play an evil character who feels genuine affection and loyalty to the rest of the party, you only disagree on what methods are permissible in accomplishing your goals. For example, I would probably classify Rick Sanchez from Rick and Morty as Chaotic Evil, but you can tell he cares about his grandson and looks out for him.

If your character is such that they might actually betray the party at some point, you have to understand that such a betrayal would mean retiring that character as a PC. The DM might let you reprise that roll a few times as an NPC villain, but you'll need to roll up a new PC to take their place in the party. Ultimately, the story has to follow the party, not your specific character.

2. Be open with the players, if not the characters. Cooperate with the players, if not the characters.

You can be secretly working as a double agent, undermining the party's efforts and ultimately working to stab them in the back. However, this should be a secret only to the characters, not the other players. Yes, it won't be as fun when they already know what's going on and don't have to "figure it out", but it's far too easy for the players to feel like they've been taken for a ride and not want to play with you anymore. All betrayal and backstabbery should be done with the consent of the players, and can make for some fun inter-PC drama as you make ability checks to conceal your true plans and the other PCs make occasional ability checks to see if they can catch a clue of what you're up to. This does require players who are good at keeping player-knowledge and character-knowledge separate.

Let me also take a moment to say that you don't have to betray the party. In fact, it's probably easier to play a character who has a reason to be loyal to the party. Perhaps another character, one with a Good alignment, is a morality pet for the Evil character, and thus they'll follow them anywhere and do anything to protect them (including committing evil acts). Maybe the rest of the party are your actual friends who you would die for, despite your differences of opinion. Etc. See the first point above about fitting in with the party.

Being evil can also be an asset to the party, from a metagame perspective. It allows your character to take a course of action that would be deemed too immoral for other PCs. You may have to do some kind of song-and-dance in order to take such actions without your party stopping you or getting mad enough at you to kick you out, but it can allow the party to proceed along a path that would otherwise be off-limits to them due to moral constraints. And by cooperating with the other players, it becomes easier to contrive a situation that allows you to get away with such actions. Maybe the paladin just happens to be out walking the wizard's familiar while you interrogate the prisoner. Sure, he's mad when he gets back, but what's done is done and now you've got the info you need. Of course, you should discuss with the other players and agree, out of character, that this is the best way to proceed before carrying out such actions.

3. Be Evil, not Stupid.

Evil characters aren't just dark and brooding serial killers. Evil characters can be kind, likable, friendly, silly, charitable. Evil characters often adopt a facade of good in order to conceal their true nature. And often, being Good is simply the optimal way to get what you want. Sometimes, you just have to ask nicely, or do someone a small favor, which is far, far easier than killing everyone while laughing maniacally. What makes an Evil character evil is when a situation presents itself where it is the unethical option that offers the greater gain for the lower cost, and the character has no qualms taking such an option. Evil is cunning, Evil is devious, Evil is seductive. Not brutish, ugly, and violent. And certainly not, "lol random stab".

For all intents and purposes, you are an otherwise normal person, you just have fewer qualms doing certain morally dubious things, and you may have an overarching goal that others might describe as "evil". You might even be the sort of "villain" that the "heroes" would partner up with in order to defeat a greater evil. Being "evil" doesn't mean you don't have any redeeming qualities, or that you can't have hope for a possible redemption arc.

Evil acts should be reserved for those times when you've exhausted the easier and less dubious options. Too often it's just not worth dealing with the fallout of an evil act. But sometimes, you don't have any other choice. And if someone's got to do it, and your friends are too self-righteous to get their hands dirty, you might as well do it.

[DarkKnightJin]

snip.

I played a Barbarian that was intended to be the villain that betrays the party at the end of a side campaign to get the Wizard and his player up to speed on the main campaign. DM had a Rogue that was silent, his wife played a Paladin that was the Rogue's sister. The Wizard was a High Elf, and the twins were Tiefling. Important note: Elves and Tieflings were considered to be 'illegal' on account of being magical races, and magic bot in service to the King was not allowed.
The elite Mage Hunter order was known for wearing red armor.

My Barbarian was basically an expy of Auron from Final Fantasy X. Red coat and all. Bear Totem, so damned resilient against magic. Rogue and Paladin's players were in on it, the Wizard's wasn't.
The reaction when my Barb finally revealed that he was a Mage Hunter in training, sent out to prove his devotion and to collect a Bounty.
Thing is: He was *perfectly open* about being a bounty hunter, and never wore anything but his red coat over his Scale mail.
And nobody put 2 and 2 together that mayve it wasn't a great idea to have someone that's admitted to hunting bounties around.. When you have a bounty on your head for *existing*.

[Greywander]

Rogue and Paladin's players were in on it, the Wizard's wasn't.
And this kind of thing can be a lot of fun, but it can also go horribly wrong. It's much easier if you're playing with people you know and have been playing with for a long time, so that even when a twist like this occurs it feels more like a plot twist than a real-life betrayal.

I guess, know who you're playing with. Some people will be okay with this style of playing, and others will not. If you don't know the players so well, or aren't sure if how they'll react, it might be better to be open with them about your character. Later on, once they're used to you playing a character like that, you might roll up another such character and keep it a secret.

Keep the drama in the game and off the table.

[Witty Username]

These are more personal rules and guidelines, note:I have a pet project that is how to role-play chaotic evil with the highest Reputation I can justify
1. Never ask for money when you know they don't have anything.
2. Don't get kicked out of town
3. Survival is still important, let that override vicious tendencies as needed
4. If people think you are heroic or good, don't correct them
5. Don't compromise party members, they are valuable resources
6. If Heroism pays well, It still pays well
7. If you must kill people, kill people other people don't like or without witnesses
8. hold grudges, no need for instant retribution
9. don't forget you can betray bad guys
10. Be charming, it always helps

[Chaos Jackal]

There really aren't any rules to playing an evil PC, just as there are no rules for playing a good one. "Don't drive the rest of the table insane" is a general game thing, not an evil player adherence, and the party paladin who forgot his character doesn't have to be as shallow as his sheet is thin can do it just as easily as the resident genocidal fiendlock.

As others have said, it's about not being stupid and not forcing yourself into stereotypes. Don't screw over someone because you wrote evil under the alignment tab, and don't go only screwing over others. An evil character has his own goals and things he's fighting for or working towards, he's not just a murderous or kleptomaniac rogue. Even if your character's purpose is as simple as getting stinkin' rich no matter what, this can go about a lot more ways than five Sleight of Hand checks every minute. Or you might be out to kill a noble because you believe the nobility of the land must be purged for some reason (you're an anarchic, you think they're corrupt, you're a hitman), but you don't have to be rude and insult everyone noble you meet because they're purge-worthy. In these scenarios, doing that will almost certainly get you caught or gather suspicion, and these are serious obstacles to your seemingly simple endeavor.

People tend to believe they need to "think evil" in order to play evil, but most of the time, that's not the case. Just because a character is evil doesn't mean he won't rescue the princess from the tower, or opt out of killing the beast in the woods that terrorizes the village. Usually, an evil adventurer is just like any other adeventurer. It's only when directly advancing their purpose or working around the reason they are evil that they have to think like that. Otherwise, they're in the same boat as anyone else, attempting to survive the adventure while furthering some cause. If anything, the evil parts need to be as discreet as possible, and what better way to be discreet than play along?

[DarkKnightJin]

And this kind of thing can be a lot of fun, but it can also go horribly wrong. It's much easier if you're playing with people you know and have been playing with for a long time, so that even when a twist like this occurs it feels more like a plot twist than a real-life betrayal.

I guess, know who you're playing with. Some people will be okay with this style of playing, and others will not. If you don't know the players so well, or aren't sure if how they'll react, it might be better to be open with them about your character. Later on, once they're used to you playing a character like that, you might roll up another such character and keep it a secret.

Keep the drama in the game and off the table.

It worked, because I've known the DM and his wife for a while. The Wizard's player was new, but a good sport about it. And I don't think even the ones that were in on it expected the reveal to be quite as epic as it turned out being.
Of course, revealing yourself to be a Fallen Aasimar and scaring the living daylights out of the Rogue (and teaching the DM a valuable lesson about Sneak Attack in the process) is gonna make quite the impact. The fact that he could shrug off most of what they threw at him made for a wonderful 'implacable man' scene that lingers in the minds of both me and the Wizard's player.
He and I are good friends, and we even have a partnership between our new characters.

Though that might be him subconsciously trying to keep such a betrayal from happening again..

[Malphegor]

I imagine the Evil Overlord List will be relevant to your savvy evildoer’s interests: http://eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html

[DarkKnightJin]

I imagine the Evil Overlord List will be relevant to your savvy evildoer’s interests: http://eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html

I should re-read that, considering we're doing an Evil campaign that's focused on the 'Strongholds and Followers' thing by Matt Colville.
It's quite a good read, and helpful tips for things to avoid..

[Particle_Man]

I notice that a lot of these evil characters that work with the party would need to be intelligent and wise enough not to be stupid evil. So do not play an evil character with int 8 and wis 8.

[Tanarii]

- Don't disrupt the game.

Honestly, enough players seem to think that evil means doing things that will disrupt the game that I currently don't allow it,



All it takes is to have done even a single seriously Evil action and feel no remorse ( o very little remorse ).
It's not even necessary to be a criminal for the law.
That's not how alignment works in 5e. If a creature is evil it's because it generally & typically, but not always, behaves like one of the three Evil alignment behavior descriptions.

[Cicciograna]

How to be Evil:


read everything Red Fel writes;
do everything Red Fel suggests.


Done.

[Witty Username]

I notice that a lot of these evil characters that work with the party would need to be intelligent and wise enough not to be stupid evil. So do not play an evil character with int 8 and wis 8.

You can try to go for the lovable psycho vibe in this case, like Thog the Barbarian ish. In this case, let other characters talk you out of things and or think of things that can pacify you during downtime(wine, songs of your deads, comfort food). Something like a violent, rage filled, happy drunk. If you cannot avoid disruption, try for entertaining. If your party finds your antics enjoyable, they will forgive some amount of derailment.

[Angelalex242]

Rules for being evil?

"WWDVD"

What Would Darth Vader Do?

[Armok]

Don't play Stupid Evil. Your goals as an evil character shouldn't conflict with the party's. That means when they're thinking about doing small acts of Good, you're focused on the big Evil. If they're focused on a big, cosmic good, that's fine; make yourself useful enough and they'll tolerate lots of petty cruelties. There has to be a reason for a character to be Evil other than 'just because'.

The Dragonlance novels are based on notes from module playthroughs, and they're a decent primer, actually. Raistlin doesn't fight the party; he doesn't work against them; he actively exerts himself and risks his life to help them succeed. He fills gaps that they absolutely need. But every step of the way he's focused - totally focused - on his own personal advancement. And, critically, at the point where his needs completely diverge from those of the party, he becomes an NPC. That's kind of important. Everyone at the table needs to be playing the same game, and often evil characters in a mixed-alignment party lead to situations where one player is trying to play a different campaign.

(Yes, he's neutral through most of the novels, but part of the point is that he's perpetually on the precipice of falling to evil.)

Came here to mention Dragonlance, and Raistlin specifically, as one of the best examples of how an evil character can work wonderfully in a D&D party.

Raistlin is a jerk. He's constantly putting himself and his intellect on a pedestal above the common folk around him. What primarily motivates him isn't helping his friends or putting an end to the realm's troubles, but gaining power. He is capable of, and in fact does evil deeds to further his own ends.

But there's also more to him than that. Without spoiling exactly who or what for those that haven't read the Dragonlance Chronicles, there are people that Raistlin cares deeply for, in his own way. His heart may be black and gnarled, but the circumstances that made him that way also make him unexpectedly sympathetic in ways that others might not be, though these are few in number.

But that's precisely what makes him such a joy to read. He's an evil, self-important bastard, but in his own way he does have things he cares about. The party falls into this category on more than one occasion, Raistlin putting himself in danger for them.

It's especially telling how, in the final chapters of the first series, Raistlin cares so deeply for Tas that he kills a piece of his soul to save the kender's life.

The best evil PCs have bonds and genuine cares for at least a few things, and the party would usually be one of then. If you haven't yet read Dragonlance and are interested, check them out. Raistlin himself basically carries the novels with the sheer force of his snark and personality, and it's fantastic. He might be an *******, but he's one you end up wanting to root for and empathizing with.

Raistlin Majere is evil PC done right.

[Tanarii]

Raistlin stops being a PC when he goes from Neutral to Evil, and becomes an NPC. At that point, he starts doing unspeakably hideous things off screen. And later on, when the PCs start interacting with him again on screen, he's either the BBEG or an NPC who is driving the agenda for the PCs who are his unwilling henchmen.

As much as he's probably my all time favorite character ever written (largely due to nostalgia I'm sure), he's not a good example of playing an evil PC.

Edit: I'm not claiming he isn't a complex character at all points.

[Hail Tempus]

Rules for being evil?

"WWDVD"

What Would Darth Vader Do?
Vader’s not a great example. He’d be a terrible party member. He’s able to get away with his horrible actions so much more powerful than the people around him. Party members of equal power would probably get sick of his crap pretty quickly.

[Particle_Man]

I think this is a problem. There seems to be a divergence between evil characters in fiction and the competent, useful, non-disruptive, helpful, evil characters described in this thread. So when a player says they want to play an evil character are they asking to play evil as seen in works of fiction or evil as put forward in threads like this one? Because I assume that even gamers have had more exposure to fiction than to threads like this one.

[Keltest]

Raistlin stops being a PC when he goes from Neutral to Evil, and becomes an NPC. At that point, he starts doing unspeakably hideous things off screen. And later on, when the PCs start interacting with him again on screen, he's either the BBEG or an NPC who is driving the agenda for the PCs who are his unwilling henchmen.

As much as he's probably my all time favorite character ever written (largely due to nostalgia I'm sure), he's not a good example of playing an evil PC.

Edit: I'm not claiming he isn't a complex character at all points.

Actually, as far as im aware, Raistlin is a relatively mild evil compared to some other D&D evil archmagi out there (ie like, all of the ones in the Forgotten Realms). He's ruthless, selfish and ambitious, but he never does evil just to prove his evil cred, everything he does has some greater purpose to it, and he uses violence as a means to an end rather than as an end unto itself.

[Tanarii]

but he never does evil just to prove his evil cred,
Yes he did. Repeatedly. So did Dalamar. They absolutely had to prove their alignment cred.

What the books did right is they didn't show you the unspeakable evils they did to prove their evil cred. The characters just refer back to it in exposition. It is after all written for teens.

[Sigreid]

- Don't disrupt the game.

I would add "too much" but this rule applies to all alignments. My experience over the years has been that good characters can be just as much or more of a pain for the rest of the players to deal with than the evil ones.

[Keltest]

Yes he did. Repeatedly. So did Dalamar. They absolutely had to prove their alignment cred.

What the books did right is they didn't show you the unspeakable evils they did to prove their evil cred. The characters just refer back to it in exposition. It is after all written for teens.

Ive read the books pretty extensively, and I have absolutely no recollection of any "unspeakable" evil acts attributed to Raist, not counting that whole "destroys the universe in an averted future" thing. Youre going to have to be more specific.

[rlc]

I don't know about evil characters, but I always roll my eyes when people say any variation of, "well, my character is kind of rude to everyone."

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Raistlin stops being a PC when he goes from Neutral to Evil, and becomes an NPC. At that point, he starts doing unspeakably hideous things off screen. And later on, when the PCs start interacting with him again on screen, he's either the BBEG or an NPC who is driving the agenda for the PCs who are his unwilling henchmen.

As much as he's probably my all time favorite character ever written (largely due to nostalgia I'm sure), he's not a good example of playing an evil PC.

Edit: I'm not claiming he isn't a complex character at all points.

He stops being a PC when he leaves the party. His alignment changes, in spirit if not in actuality, in Silvanesti, in Lorac's nightmare.

And that, IMO, is the most important lesson for people who want to play Evil characters. You have to, like, get along with the other characters enough that they want you to be there. Otherwise, the other players are going to ask you to roll something else and your DM will pull you aside for a quiet chat.

[Angelalex242]

In general. I think evil characters are frequently modeled off an evil character the player thinks is cool.

"I'm going to be an evil trickster cleric...and I'm played by Tom Hiddleston!"

"I'm going to be an Oathbreaker Paladin played by Hayden Christiansen..."

"I'm going to be a rogue played by Heath Ledger..."

And then you always get that guy embracing his inner sociopath...

"And while you guys are in the bar, I'm gonna go torture somebody to death for lulz."

[Red Fel]

How to be Evil:


read everything Red Fel writes;
do everything Red Fel suggests.


Done.

https://66.media.tumblr.com/3c30634c9a25f3d3300c52f88fb0c263/tumblr_inline_nlkto2weKD1qf49jl.gif

[Waiting intensifies...]

[Phoenix042]

I'm running an "evil campaign" right now, where the players all agreed to make evil (or neutral, with a dark / evil bent) characters and work towards evil goals. I'm tasked with creating the forces (good and evil) which will oppose them and some which will become their allies.

My one requirement for the players: You are responsible for party cohesion and for helping others tell the story they want to tell, as well as making the game fun for others. It's not my job or anyone else's to give you a reason to stick with the party or share their goals.

Even so, I've worked to make the world in such a way that it allows their goals to align rather than diverging. I think party conflict can be a fun thing to have if everyone is on the same page, but my group in particular is bad at handling conflict between players.


Also, at my table, if you try to harm, steal from, or otherwise do something bad to an ally, the player controlling that character decides how to resolve the attempt. He might call for an attack roll, or he's allowed to say "your attack misses and I ignore it." That is, players get to decide whether or not to opt into conflict if they think it'll be fun.

And the most important part; if he says "your attack misses, and I ignore it" then that's it. You (the player) need to drop it and move on, or else you're creating PLAYER conflict and that's not allowed at my table. You might say "my rogue tries for several minutes to backstab you, failing hilariously each time, then gives up."

[Malphegor]

Vader’s not a great example. He’d be a terrible party member. He’s able to get away with his horrible actions so much more powerful than the people around him. Party members of equal power would probably get sick of his crap pretty quickly.

Yeah Vader's pretty much the epitome of 'split off from the party, go on a mad beserker spree through the enemy, come back and get annoyed when they tell you it was a diplomatic mission and you weren't meant to space the teddybears'


My own personal rules for evil are:

1. Don't get high on your own supply. Keep a level head, remember what your goals are, and stick to your convictions.

2. When in doubt, just leave. Heroes aren't worth your time, you don't need to explain anything, and you can just start again if they hassle you, somewhere where the law is more... lenient.

3. Deep sea bases SOUND cool, but YOU DO NOT BREATHE WATER. And you know the Hero will destroy it. Screw it, have your base in the open as soon as you are powerful enough.

4. You should strive for legitimacy. Nothing better than when the local authority supports you. If you are the local authority, try to get the do-gooders on side, not with promises of 'ruling together', but with actual legitimate concessions. "Okay so I won't destroy the atmosphere, but this really needs to be done for X reasons. How can I comprimise this to get what I want and you get what you want? Can I have a designated land to breed superorcs? How do you feel about me spending time using my power to defend a location of yours in exchange for one evil act of equal value?" Once the Church(es) are on your side, there's a lot you can do to corrupt them to slowly see you as their messianic figure.

5. In the event that the Hero is trying to romance you, just reject them. It seldom works out well and while it may be nice at the time, the emotional baggage isn't worth it for future encounters.

[darknite]

Evil can be played just fine as long as the group recognizes that evil PCs aren't a license for PvP. PvP typically kills gaming groups.

Next, evil is typically not openly tolerated in civil societies. Therefore expect to be opposed if you act in an evil way in these places. The "but it's what my character would do!" excuse if fine, as long as they realize there are consequences. Also evil often consorts with evil. Which means anyone who does tolerate you is evil, too, and probably has plans for you that are ... evil.

[KorvinStarmast]

- Don't disrupt the game. This is good guidance, but the number of people who can't separate the character from the player remains high enough that your choice not to run evil is a sound one.

I'm not claiming he isn't a complex character at all points. He's a well written narrative character, but he's not an actual D&D PC.
In general. I think evil characters are frequently modeled off an evil character the player thinks is cool. Yeah, there's that problem too.

[Greywander]

After thinking about it for a while, I came up with a concept for, not only an evil character, but an actual devil PC. Mechanically, he is just a Lawful Evil tiefling, not sure what class.

An office drone in the Souls Receivable department, a mix-up on his part led to two souls being sent to the wrong afterlife. A slimy lawyer ended up in Celestia, while a pure-hearted princess wound up in Baator. By the time the error had been noticed, she'd already assembled a troupe of small woodland creatures for a tea party and was playing Truth or Dare with some of the weaker devils who were unable to resist her charm. The archdevil of that particular circle was now also sporting some very nice braids.

Meanwhile, in Celestia, the lawyer had already reviewed the contract between Heaven and Hell that places limits on each and pointed out some loopholes the celestials could exploit. The celestials were beginning to rethink sending all lawyers to Baator (threatening the devils' monopoly on good lawyers) when the lawsuits started to fly. Turns out being the only lawyer in Celestia was, shall we say, an opportunity waiting to be exploited. Things came to a head when Bahamut got served up a class action lawsuit for "flashing" most of Celestia (platinum is very reflective, and Celestia is very bright. Also dude doesn't wear clothes).

As a punishment, and part of an agreement between Celestia and Baator to resolve the issue, the original devil who made the mistake was stripped of most of his power and exiled to the Material Plane. As penance, he must commit seven Deeds of True Good, after which he will be allowed to return to Hell and resume his job as an office drone. However, this is more or less a permanent exile, as it is near impossible that any being, no matter how Evil, could commit so many Deeds of True Good without ceasing to be entirely Evil, and even a single such Deed would put one at risk.

TL;DR, office drone devils screws up, sends souls to the wrong afterlife. As punishment, he becomes essentially a mortal and has to commit seven good deeds to get back into Hell and become a devil again.

As per the silliness of the backstory, the sort of evil acts he'd likely commit would be things like telling someone their cooking is bad (if it is, Lawful and all that), or conning an elderly person out of their pension. Not exactly murdering random people for no reason. This also sets him up beautifully for either a redemption arc (where he does all seven deeds and ceases to be Evil/a devil), or a fall into further evil where he finds a way to fulfill the letter of the punishment and then seek revenge against the devils and angels that punished him.

Why is he with the party? Well, adventuring is some pretty nasty business, rife with opportunities to perform "good deeds", or to indulge in his evil nature if that's what he's feeling like that day. The party merely facilitates him being able to travel around and either corrupt innocents or find a way to fulfill his punishment. He has no reason to harm them or deal falsely with them. Likewise, any Good party members are invested in his possible redemption, and being very helpful in pointing out opportunities to do good deeds.

Hmm, I actually really like this. Time to roll up a tiefling. Still not sure what class to go for, but this feels like the perfect set up for a Fiend warlock.

[Kane0]

So I figured we might post up some good ideas on how to be evil and what are some rules that one should adhere to. Especially in a mixed group of alignment.

Rules:

1) Do not harm/injure the party.
2) Your backstory and motives should explain why you are with the party.

I’d say that is a good number one and 2. What else?

Much the same as any gentleman's agreement.

You are here to have fun. The others at the table are also here to have fun. Your fun is not more important than the fun of the others. Ensure that both you and the others can and do have fun.

[Witty Username]

One more thing to say from me, be flexible, and that goes for any alignment. Good, bad, law, and chaos can all create a range of behavior, don't get stuck on one course of action, keep your options open.

[Malifice]

Came here to mention Dragonlance, and Raistlin specifically, as one of the best examples of how an evil character can work wonderfully in a D&D party.

Raistlin is a jerk. He's constantly putting himself and his intellect on a pedestal above the common folk around him. What primarily motivates him isn't helping his friends or putting an end to the realm's troubles, but gaining power. He is capable of, and in fact does evil deeds to further his own ends.

Raisltin was CN in Dragonlance. As long as he was wearing the Red Robes. That's when he was a Jerk. He was self absorbed, acerbic and mean spirited without being overly violent and murderous.

When he donned the black robes (Legends onwards) he was a murderous, backstabbing monster. He literally murdered the Gnome who fixed the time travel device in cold blood, betrayed his brother and Tasselhoff numerous times either leaving them to die, or actively seeking to have them killed, and abandoned Christania the Cleric in the Abyss to die (they were all fellow PC's). He created tortured life, engaged in necromancy and worse, destroyed souls and worse.

Red robes Raistlin didnt betray his friends.

Black robes Raistlin would do so in a heartbeat.

[monkey3]

Having ended up in the wrong end of this, metagame like crazy. It is a social game, and you have to make sure everyone is having fun. If only you are having fun, and other people are feeling cringy or uncomfortable, then it will build on itself, and the campaign will fall apart, or you will have to pull out for the sake of keeping the game from breaking apart.

Read the room. All the time. It was actually pretty exhausting with my crew, because a few of them had a harder time separating fantasy and reality more than others