understanding an optimized build

[Silvernale]

So I found this over the top build:
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/The_Wish_and_the_Word_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_ Build%29

I'm struggling to understand a few things about "The Word" build and was hoping someone could help me out.

1) In the first phase, what is the point of ranger, swashbuckler, fighter?
2) In the third phase, why go with rakshasa?
3) The main question. He calculates arcane caster 28 and divine caster 110. He states that the sublime chord "unites" all of the random arcane caster classes as one, but after reading the class, it says "add sublime chord level to one other arcane casting class". Ur-Priest adds half the prc to all other spellcasting classes, which in this build is 5. The build uses a total of 18 orange ioun stones for +18 to each spellcasting class level?
4) Is this thing even possible by the RAW?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First of all, stop reading dandwiki.
Second, stop reading dandwiki.
Third, realize that there's a difference between practical optimization and theoretical optimization.
Fourth, realize that a huge number of the 'optimized' builds on dandwiki were written by a person who either doesn't understand optimization, or who doesn't even fully understand the rules of the game.

The Wish and The Word were originally created by someone trying to troll the WotC optimization forums. The writer deliberately tried to cram every questionable trick he possibly could into them, in order to provoke arguments from the community. The writer had been banned from those forums multiple times prior to that for obvious trolling. Forget those 'builds' even exist.


Practical optimization is something that could see play at a gaming table with other people. It's not game-breakingly powerful, and it's not dependent on ambiguous or (deliberately) misinterpreted rules.

Theoretical optimization exists only to provoke discussion, not to be played. It's often intended to create characters who are the absolute best at one particular thing, or who are so powerful that they can take on level-appropriate challenges with no personal risk.

Someone who doesn't understand the difference between those two things will frequently try to play an uber-powerful theoretical build, and often such a person will try to make the build even stronger. In the latter case such a person's lack of understanding of the rules (or willingness to deliberately misinterpret the rules) will result in a character that's not even rules-legal. Don't be one of these people, and don't ever play the game with one of these people.

[Silvernale]

LOL I had no idea. I do like the idea of using beefed up blasphemy/holy word tho. What would be a more legitimate way of getting the most out of those two spells?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The problem with using Holy Word or similar with a buffed caster level is that it either automatically wins or it's ineffective. It forces your DM to use opponents that it's ineffective against, because otherwise you just automatically win every encounter. It's back to theoretical optimization.


For buffing caster level, Earth Spell is one of the best ways to do that. However, as that's already a 7th level spell you're not going to get much mileage out of this.

You could take four levels of Hierophant with Practiced Spellcaster, and apply Practiced Spellcaster before the +4 CL from Hierophant. However, that loses levels of actual spellcasting, so it's not a very good trade.

You could put it on an arcane spellcaster, and gain access to it via Arcane Disciple. That gives you more ways of stacking caster levels, such as with Master Spellthief or Theurgic Specialist.

You could use Red Wizard for a caster level of 40, but that requires a number of simulacrums or similar to power you up every day. That also allows you to Heighten a spell to 20th level, so Earth Spell would put that at a caster level of 53. Throw in a Ring of Arcane Might and an Orange Prism Ioun Stone for a total of 55, and you'll automatically one-shot anything that's 45 HD or lower unless it's the same alignment as the spell.

Master Spellthief combines the spellcaster levels (i.e. effective levels for determining spells/day and highest level spells) of all your arcane spellcasting classes to determine your caster level for all classes. Theurgic Specialist is in Dragon 325, that adds together the caster levels of all your spellcasting classes when you're casting a spell from your specialist school.

So consider a Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 3/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Sorcerer 1/ Bard 1/ Wu Jen 1/ Warmage 1/ Dread Necromancer 1. With Master Spellthief your caster level in every arcane spellcasting class is equal, so all ten UM levels can go toward Wizard. You end up with Wizard 13 and Beguiler 8 spellcasting, and one level in each of six other classes. Master Spellthief makes your caster level 27 for seven classes (Spellthief 1 isn't a spellcasting class, but Master Spellthief adds it to the other classes). UM adds +4 to those, for 31 in each class. Get a Ring of Arcane Might and an Orange Prism Ioun Stone for 33 in each class. With Theurgic Specialist, whenever you cast a spell from your specialist school you add all of those seven classes' caster levels together, for a total caster level of 231 with any spell of that school.

Just a Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 3/ UM 10/ [Wizard-advancing classes] 5 is pretty good. You end up with Wizard 18 and Beguiler 8 spellcasting, plus the one Spellthief level and +4 from UM gets a caster level of 31 in both classes at 20th level. Your Holy Word would one-shot anything 21 HD or lower, or seriously debuff anything nongood that's up to 31 HD with no saving throw. This is still pushing the limits of what could be considered a practical build, especially considering you can include Able Learner for those amazing Beguiler class skills and Versatile Spellcaster to spend two Beguiler slots to spontaneously cast any Wizard spell you know of 5th level or lower.

[MisterKaws]

Yeah, dandwiki is the animeamino of D&D.

I remember seeing this once, but don't remember the details. However, just skimming through the introduction, I found two blatant errors:

First, wishing for more wishes is DM Fiat territory, and wiil inevitably get you killed/sent to hell/hunted by Varakhuts

Second, it assumes that simply because Orange Ioun Stones are untyped, they stack. Untyped bonuses do stack among each other, but bonuses from the same source do not stack unless specifically mentioned. This is a case of Specific Trumps General, except the author claims it works in the opposite way, with the untyped stacking rule overriding the same source rule. If you look at other sources of untyped bonuses(like some feats), they mention when they can be picked more than once, so using that as a precedent, it is easily provable that, by RAI, the same source rule is prevalent.

Just by those two points, it's possible to conclude that this build only works based on ambiguous rulings that are completely dependent on the DM, and really don't follow RAW too closely, unlike other more famous TO builds, like HIVE, Pun-Pun, Omniscifier, etc.

Personally, if a player came to my table with something like that, I'd try talking them out of it, and if that didn't work, I'd just bring the Incarnate Collossi-Devastation Vermin Etomanothropes, which are all CR 19-21 with 100-200 HD.

[Silvernale]

Thanks for the input

[Ramza00]

First of all, stop reading dandwiki.
Second, stop reading dandwiki.
Third, realize that there's a difference between practical optimization and theoretical optimization.
Fourth, realize that a huge number of the 'optimized' builds on dandwiki were written by a person who either doesn't understand optimization, or who doesn't even fully understand the rules of the game.

The Wish and The Word were originally created by someone trying to troll the WotC optimization forums. The writer deliberately tried to cram every questionable trick he possibly could into them, in order to provoke arguments from the community. The writer had been banned from those forums multiple times prior to that for obvious trolling. Forget those 'builds' even exist.


Remind me who created the Wish and the Word? I think it was two people but I can't remember their names.

[Seerow]

Remind me who created the Wish and the Word? I think it was two people but I can't remember their names.

It was Frank and K unless I'm mistaken.

[Piggy Knowles]

Remind me who created the Wish and the Word? I think it was two people but I can't remember their names.

Frank Trollman and K, who are better known at this point for their Tomes.

EDIT: too slow...

[Silvernale]

I got to thinking, blasphemy and holy word are both level 7 clerical spells, but the build suggested has no divine caster levels.

[StevenC21]

The "builds" have them as Su abilities.

[Piggy Knowles]

I got to thinking, blasphemy and holy word are both level 7 clerical spells, but the build suggested has no divine caster levels.

The Word starts off with ten levels of Ur-Priest, then level drains the levels away and uses a very generous interpretation of Emancipated Spawn's recall class features ability to get the casting back.

[Silvernale]

Oh I meant the idea suggested by Biff

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Oh I meant the idea suggested by Biff

Those spells are in the Good/Evil domains, you can take Arcane Disciple to get access to a domain's spells on an arcane spellcaster.

[Silvernale]

Ah I didn't know that one

[Eldariel]

The problem with using Holy Word or similar with a buffed caster level is that it either automatically wins or it's ineffective. It forces your DM to use opponents that it's ineffective against, because otherwise you just automatically win every encounter. It's back to theoretical optimization.

To be fair, there are ways to make them partially effective. Many of those conditions are fairly common immunity types, they're sonic, there are various spells that can protect against them (which in turn can be attacked), they have fairly short ranges and so on and so forth. In a higher optimisation table, e.g. Consumptive Field Blasphemy spam is more than fine.

[icefractal]

The Wish is just the "standard" (well, I've seen it a number of times here and elsewhere) tactic of abusing costless wishes for items. A ring of infinite wishes might not exist, but a scroll with 10^100 wishes that each have 10^100 xp invested unambiguously does, so the distinction isn't a big one. Efreet/Zodar wishes for items are definitely TO, not PO, but I don't think those builds were ever claimed as practical.

[StevenC21]

What separates TO from PO?

I thought they were synonymous.

[ekarney]

What separates TO from PO?

I thought they were synonymous.

In my understanding TO is optimization leads to a valid, rules legal build, that no DM would allow at the the table that boil down to one of three build types.
1. Counterable - Stuff like the D2 crusader, yes it does infinite damage but otherwise is totally playable. Slapping baleful polymorph on a d2 Crusader will stop it dead in it's tracks. So will keeping it at a distance etc. Still, not allowable since you either A. Do infinite damage and kill every enemy on your turn in initiative or, do nothing of any use.
2. Uncounterable. - Stuff that lives on it's own private demi-plane, has infinite castings of wish, and is effectively unable to be harmed, and capable of neutralizing any threat within a couple of rounds without exposing itself to danger.
3. Abusive - Usually requires very loose interpretations of the rules what it can do usually varies, but by sensibly using RAI they usually don't do anything.

PO on the other hand is extremely variable and much harder to categorize, but the main difference between PO and TO is that PO will be allowed at most tables depending on the power level of the table. PO can be anything from not stacking LA, to choosing power attack and shock trooper for your melee characters, to not choosing grease for every spell you prepare as a wizard.
Some build types like slingers and throwers usually require extensive optimization to be viable, yet despite all the cheese and tricks stacked into them aren't busted, merely only capable of competing at a level appropriate to other characters in their party. Other builds, like a High-Op Wu Jen are capable of reaching almost godhood for about a day at a time and ignoring it (If they can get pact of return), yet even without their nasty trick are still going to be quite versatile.


tl;dr TO is not allowed at any sane table, PO likely is.

[Seerow]

What separates TO from PO?

I thought they were synonymous.

TO is Theoretical Optimization. Builds that are technically possible but nearly guaranteed to break a game regardless of who is running it. It's stuff like The Wish and the Word, Pun-Pun, and similar.

PO is Practical Optimization. These are builds that are optimized, but are built to serve a useful purpose in an actual game. Usually a practical op build is made within more specific parameters, or meant to actually fit into a real game where optimization levels have been set.

[Silvernale]

I'm only at the PO level of wizard + archmage kind of builds so I was looking online to try to keep up with the other players

[StevenC21]

If you're in a group with people playing the Wish & the Word level characters, you need to get out now.

Also, Wiz+Archmage can be extremely powerful. It all comes down to spell selection.

[Eldariel]

If you're in a group with people playing the Wish & the Word level characters, you need to get out now.

Also, Wiz+Archmage can be extremely powerful. It all comes down to spell selection.

I'd like to emphasize this. Plain Wizard can break the game 7 ways to Sunday. You don't need PRCs to do that. PRCs just allow you to do so even more, or some of the less broken stuff with more efficiency (which is what I'd generally recommend, to keep the game more manageable unless everyone knows what they're in for).

[Silvernale]

If you're in a group with people playing the Wish & the Word level characters, you need to get out now.

Also, Wiz+Archmage can be extremely powerful. It all comes down to spell selection.

nuuuuu nothing that weird, but some of the stuff is pretty scary

[StevenC21]

What kind of stuff?

[Silvernale]

Master Spellthief combines the spellcaster levels (i.e. effective levels for determining spells/day and highest level spells) of all your arcane spellcasting classes to determine your caster level for all classes. Theurgic Specialist is in Dragon 325, that adds together the caster levels of all your spellcasting classes when you're casting a spell from your specialist school.

So consider a Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 3/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Sorcerer 1/ Bard 1/ Wu Jen 1/ Warmage 1/ Dread Necromancer 1. With Master Spellthief your caster level in every arcane spellcasting class is equal, so all ten UM levels can go toward Wizard. You end up with Wizard 13 and Beguiler 8 spellcasting, and one level in each of six other classes. Master Spellthief makes your caster level 27 for seven classes (Spellthief 1 isn't a spellcasting class, but Master Spellthief adds it to the other classes). UM adds +4 to those, for 31 in each class. Get a Ring of Arcane Might and an Orange Prism Ioun Stone for 33 in each class. With Theurgic Specialist, whenever you cast a spell from your specialist school you add all of those seven classes' caster levels together, for a total caster level of 231 with any spell of that school.

Just a Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 3/ UM 10/ [Wizard-advancing classes] 5 is pretty good. You end up with Wizard 18 and Beguiler 8 spellcasting, plus the one Spellthief level and +4 from UM gets a caster level of 31 in both classes at 20th level. Your Holy Word would one-shot anything 21 HD or lower, or seriously debuff anything nongood that's up to 31 HD with no saving throw. This is still pushing the limits of what could be considered a practical build, especially considering you can include Able Learner for those amazing Beguiler class skills and Versatile Spellcaster to spend two Beguiler slots to spontaneously cast any Wizard spell you know of 5th level or lower.

I'm confused how this works.
Also, does it matter the sorcerer bloodline and wizard specialty?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm confused how this works.
Also, does it matter the sorcerer bloodline and wizard specialty?

Sorcerer bloodline isn't a thing in 3.5, you may be thinking Pathfinder. Wizard specialty must be the school of the spell you want to exploit.

The Master Spellthief feat in Complete Scoundrel:
"Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells."

So you're at Wizard 13 and Beguiler 8, with one level in each of five other spellcasting classes, plus one level of spellthief. You add all of those levels together to determine your caster level for each class. Ultimate Magus further increases each class's caster level by +4 from the arcane spell power class feature. An Orange Prism Ioun Stone and a Ring of Arcane Might each add another +1 caster level to each class.

The Theurgic Specialist feat in Dragon 325:
When casting a spell from your specialist school, you can add together the caster levels of all your spellcasting classes to determine your caster level.

So your seven spellcasting classes each have a caster level of 33 from Master Spellthief. Theurgic Specialist adds all of those together (7x33=231) to determine your caster level for any spell you cast from your Wizard specialist school.

Furthermore, you can take the feat Reserves of Strength from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting you can (negligibly) increase the caster level of a spell you cast and in doing so remove any level-based variable limits of the spell. So with that combo a Magic Missile spell will fire 116 missiles, for example.

One of the best spells to use with an absurd caster level is Maw of Chaos in Spell Compendium, a 9th level abjuration, since it does 1d6 per caster level per round with no built-in limit and no save to reduce the damage in a 15-ft. radius.

Finally, you're probably best off using a Necromancer with the metamagic feat Song of the Dead in Dragon Compendium. That's a +1 metamagic that turns the affected spell into a necromancy spell, and if it was mind-affecting it now affects only intelligent undead creatures. So a necromancer can use that to make every spell he casts benefit from his inflated caster level. If he can command or otherwise control a Slaymate in Libris Mortis, it has a passive aura that gives a -1 metamagic cost to all necromancy spells, so with that you can apply Song of the Dead to your spells for free.

[Silvernale]

So with that stacking, would I have the spell lists of a 33rd level caster in each class or just cast with a 1st level class list but the spells are at 33rd level?

[A_S]

Side-note: Even if you give Orange Ioun Stone stacking a pass, the Wish and the Word are only even kind of rules-legal if you deliberately conflate "levels in a spellcasting class" and "caster level." By my read, the build doesn't work at all, even if your DM gives the nod to the ambiguous stuff like the Ioun Stones.

Some discussion on another website (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/140228/does-the-caster-level-trick-of-the-word-from-the-wish-and-the-word-optimization) if you want to read more.

[Malroth]

These stack caster lv not level in casting class, so your spells pack the wallop of a lv 31+ casting them but your spell slots are of a lv 13 wizard lv 8 beguiler

[A_S]

These stack caster lv not level in casting class, so your spells pack the wallop of a lv 31+ casting them but your spell slots are of a lv 13 wizard lv 8 beguiler
They don't actually stack caster levels, though. Here's the wording for the features that Sublime Chord and Ur-Priest use to determine their caster levels (emphasis mine):


A sublime chord's caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class. If she had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a sublime chord, she must choose to which class to add her sublime chord levels for the purpose of determining her sublime chord spellcaster level.


To determine the caster level of an ur-priest, add the character's ur-priest levels to one-half of his levels in other spellcasting classes.

[Silvernale]

Ah so I would only have the spells of a level 1 sorcerer/wu jen/etc, but I would cast them as a 33rd level caster?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ah so I would only have the spells of a level 1 sorcerer/wu jen/etc, but I would cast them as a 33rd level caster?

That's right, but you shouldn't really care about the spells you get from those classes. They're only there to have a caster level of 33, which gets added to your other classes' caster levels when using Theurgic Specialist.

[Silvernale]

Hmm so those slots should just be used for utility spells? This build fascinates me more than it should lol.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Hmm so those slots should just be used for utility spells? This build fascinates me more than it should lol.

Honestly, you should probably just go with a more PO version, skip Theurgic Specialist, get 9th level Wizards spells, and still be absurdly strong: Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard (Conjurer) 3/ Ultimate Magus 10/ [Wizard-advancing PrCs] 5.

Be a Human and take Able Learner at 1st, so you can keep up your ranks in your favorite Beguiler skills. Take Versatile Spellcaster, and you can spend two Beguiler spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher, including any Wizard spells you've learned (subject to DM interpretation whether it can be used to cast spells from another class). You'll also have silly metamagic tricks, like using 1st level Beguiler spell slots to add Extend Spell and Sculpt Spell to your Wizard spells.

You'll definitely need to take two flaws for two extra feats. You'll need to take Master Spellthief at 3rd, which requires 2nd level spells. If starting play at 5th+ level you can put a flaw feat at level 5 for that, since flaws only need to be taken during character creation but can appear at any level you begin play at. Otherwise you can use Precocious Apprentice and retrain it later, or Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell, since entering UM requires a metamagic feat anyway. You cold start out Beguiler 1/ Wizard 1/ Spellthief 1 with Versatile Spellcaster at 1st and make sure you learn a 2nd level Wizard spell before reaching 3rd level, if you don't want Heighten Spell.

For those five prestige class levels at the end, you'll definitely want Mindbender 1, maybe finish with Incantatrix 4, or maybe take a few Paragnostic Apostle levels and/or a few Archmage levels depending on what abilities you want to grab. If you go with Incantatrix, keep in mind that the extra prohibited school can be applied to your Beguiler spellcasting for a school that the class doesn't even have any spells from. Don't forget to use the Otyugh Hole to get Iron Will if you go that route. You could also grab two more Wizard levels near the end for spontaneous divination or a domain power instead of the 5th level feat.

Your Beguiler and Wizard spellcasting at a given level with that build will be as follows (not counting any items or outside effects that boost caster level):

Class [level for spells/day and highest level spells] (caster level for both)
1. Beguiler 1 (1)
2. Beguiler 1 (1)
3. Beguiler 1, Wizard 1 (3)
4. Beguiler 1, Wizard 2 (4)
5. Beguiler 1, Wizard 3 (5)
6. Beguiler 1, Wizard 4 (7)
7. Beguiler 2, Wizard 5 (9)
8. Beguiler 3, Wizard 6 (11)
9. Beguiler 3, Wizard 7 (13)
10. Beguiler 4, Wizard 8 (15)
11. Beguiler 5, Wizard 9 (17)
12. Beguiler 5, Wizard 10 (19)
13. Beguiler 6, Wizard 11 (21)
14. Beguiler 7, Wizard 12 (23)
15. Beguiler 8, Wizard 13 (26)
16. Beguiler 8, Wizard 14 (27)
17. Beguiler 8, Wizard 15 (28)
18. Beguiler 8, Wizard 16 (29)
19. Beguiler 8, Wizard 17 (30)
20. Beguiler 8, Wizard 18 (31)

[Awakeninfinity]

I have a question; what are the other players playing? Because I'm curious on how a wizard actually has difficulty keeping up. (This could be due to spell selection to you being underlevelled by comparison or even the GM nerfing due to past history with the class.) I'm just curious.

[Silvernale]

I have a question; what are the other players playing? Because I'm curious on how a wizard actually has difficulty keeping up. (This could be due to spell selection to you being underlevelled by comparison or even the GM nerfing due to past history with the class.) I'm just curious.

We are starting a L20 campaign and while I don't know all the details of the other characters, one is a dwarf with AC 90 and one is an orc barbarian who can do like 1000 damage per round.

[Anthrowhale]

Master Spellthief combines the spellcaster levels (i.e. effective levels for determining spells/day and highest level spells) of all your arcane spellcasting classes to determine your caster level for all classes. Theurgic Specialist is in Dragon 325, that adds together the caster levels of all your spellcasting classes when you're casting a spell from your specialist school.

Master Spellthief has a parenthetical.
(that is, levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief) which makes using Ultimate Magus class levels suspect as they don't natively grant arcane spellcasting.

Of course, you still autokill most opponents with Holy Word....

[Mato]

4) Is this thing even possible by the RAW?This again? You know, if people quit linking to old erroneous builds maybe we would have less posts explaining how they don't work, how they failed, alternatives, and the never ending debate on what the definition of "theoretical" or "practical" should mean to everyone else. :smallfrown:

Anyway, the general rule of thumb is just about all the old "optimized" builds are what you would call illegal or "missing the point". Like an example of missing the point could be using infinite wishes just wish for magic items that cast quickened temporal accelerates and magic missile is just an explanation of how infinite wishes can be used to run around and kill everyone in the planet. Now I could bore you with the details of how the wishy word just doesn't work like it claims to cover the illegal part, but there are several hundred threads that already discuss the in and outs and this one is doing a fine job of repeating everything all over again too.

Instead let's talk about something else. Like did you know the entire point of blasphemy was to almost irresistibly murder opponents using your caster level? I know the spell's entry goes a long way into pointing this out in a fairly simple way. But sometimes we just need a Rube Goldberg machine build referencing thirty different supplements to explain it. It's how the USA's government does things, and it's worked out pretty well for the people in line at the DMV so far. :smallsmile: Now imagine what we could do to Thanos if we tried to make the most complicated escape artist check possible.