Is Belkar still Chaotic Evil?

[Wizard_Lizard]

I mean… …He certainly has done some evil stuff… …But… …Recently he is pushing more chaotic neutral even to chaotic good at times…

So let us discuss… the homicidal halfling…

[Rrmcklin]

Yes. Recent "good" behavior aside, there's no reason to think his actual alignment has changed, especially since we've seen that this very night his "Protection from Evil" charm still hurts him.

And yet people still keep bringing this up like it's unclear...

[factotum]

Plus he has spent his life doing evil. You don't get to counteract a lifetime of evil with the occasional good-ish act, especially if said good act is being done for largely selfish reasons.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Plus he has spent his life doing evil. You don't get to counteract a lifetime of evil with the occasional good-ish act, especially if said good act is being done for largely selfish reasons.

hiking ip a mountsin to warn Roy?
Tge vampires barelh even had to try to get him to protect V..
Sure "selfish"

[Peelee]

hiking ip a mountsin to warn Roy?
Tge vampires barelh even had to try to get him to protect V..
Sure "selfish"

The vampires barely had to try to get him to "protect V" in the sense that "protecting V" meant "hurting Roy." Not the best argument there.

Regardless, he spent a good deal of his life hurting people, killing people, and selling people into slavery. Dropping a dollar into the Red Cross cup ain't gonna get him out of the hole he's dug himself, ya know?

[understatement]

One of the things Belkar's been working on is loyalty to his team. That, while is a plus in most people's books, is not automatically a Good act -- heck, the Linear Guild are tight on loyalty and they're still Evil. Belkar is willing to fight alongside and nominally protect the Order because of "friendship" (or some diluted, twisted version of it), not because they're fighting Evil.

So yeah, he's still Chaotic Evil. Maybe he could end up Neutral at some point -- in a universe where second chances can be allowed, the effort of trying (as evidenced in the deva's speech) is a huge factor in redemption. Redemption's not necessarily about net positive as it is about correcting mistakes, knowing that you might not -- or will not -- be redeemed in others' eyes. That's what V is doing. Belkar's probing the pathway, but he hasn't gone on it yet. And in his time-ticking bomb I'm not sure he can make it.

Maybe that's why Belkar has to die? It'll be a little weird if the message was "I get to live happily because I happen to be with the right team at the right time."

[Morty]

If Belkar's alignment ever actually shifts from evil, I expect it'll be stated or portrayed directly in the comic.

[MultitudeMan]

One of the things Belkar's been working on is loyalty to his team. That, while is a plus in most people's books, is not automatically a Good act -- heck, the Linear Guild are tight on loyalty and they're still Evil. Belkar is willing to fight alongside and nominally protect the Order because of "friendship" (or some diluted, twisted version of it), not because they're fighting Evil.

So yeah, he's still Chaotic Evil. Maybe he could end up Neutral at some point -- in a universe where second chances can be allowed, the effort of trying (as evidenced in the deva's speech) is a huge factor in redemption. Redemption's not necessarily about net positive as it is about correcting mistakes, knowing that you might not -- or will not -- be redeemed in others' eyes. That's what V is doing. Belkar's probing the pathway, but he hasn't gone on it yet. And in his time-ticking bomb I'm not sure he can make it.

Maybe that's why Belkar has to die? It'll be a little weird if the message was "I get to live happily because I happen to be with the right team at the right time."

It just occurred to me that maybe Belkar's shift isn't so much on the Good-Evil axis as the Lawful-Chaotic axis. The point about loyalty is well made, but that could be seen as a shift away from Chaotic, towards Neutral Evil, or possibly even True Neutral, if both axes are in play. To me, loyalty feels like adherence to structure, more than a right/wrong thing.

[Conradine]

Belkar killed two innocent gnome civilians in cold blood and never showed an inch of remorse.
I would say that someone able to do that stays firmly in the Evil alignment unless he starts showing regrets.

[GideonWells]

I think when Belkar's alignment change happens we'll know. It may be something subtle that we miss until after a "That won't work because he's chaotic evi... what." or a "I had to do it because he's chaotic evil... why are non-chaotic evil psychocomps coming to claim him?" or a "Join team evil because, let's be honest, you are probably even evil than I" moment, but there will be an indication.

Belkar is on a trajectory, and building the acceleration, to leave his alignment. I just don't think he's crossed it yet. He's going to need a quite a bit of non-Chaotic Evil thrust to escape his evil gravity well. He's still in the "learning there are other ways" and "doubting his way is right" phase. He hasn't fully switched over yet.

[Psyren]

hiking ip a mountsin to warn Roy?
Tge vampires barelh even had to try to get him to protect V..
Sure "selfish"

It takes more than a handful of good deeds to change your alignment. Also he wanted to rub Roy's face in it and kill stuff moreso than warn him.

[FujinAkari]

I think you are reading way too much into it. There is an article on this website written by some guy named Rich Burlew about the dangers of assuming that evil characters cannot be loyal totheir friends.

http://www.giantitp.com/articles/XbsQgS9YYu9g3HZBAGE.html

[Sir_Norbert]

He hiked up a mountain in the middle of nowhere to rejoin the team that had a means of transport.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I think he willl redeem himself and then die.
BUT will get annoyed tht he doesnt make it into hell..

[martianmister]

He's Neutral Good with lawful tendencies.

[Rrmcklin]

It just occurred to me that maybe Belkar's shift isn't so much on the Good-Evil axis as the Lawful-Chaotic axis. The point about loyalty is well made, but that could be seen as a shift away from Chaotic, towards Neutral Evil, or possibly even True Neutral, if both axes are in play. To me, loyalty feels like adherence to structure, more than a right/wrong thing.

It really isn't. Nothing about Belkar's changes have been about him valuing order or stability more. They have been about him growing deeper attachments and being willing/able to feel remorse/empathy for other beings, even if he does have to be fairly close to them for it.

Loyalty can have many reasons, "adherence to structure" being just one of them (and definitely not being Belkar's). Unless you want to say that Elan and Sabine (the latter literally being a creature of Chaos) aren't Chaotic.

[hroþila]

While I do think that having some capacity for empathy, regret and self-reflection puts Belkar closer to Neutral in absolute terms than he was when he had none of those things, I don't think he's particularly close. Those things aren't rare in Evil people, only complete caricatures lack them altogether. Redcloak has them too, to varying degrees, and yet, look at him.

[Peelee]

I think he willl redeem himself and then die.
BUT will get annoyed tht he doesnt make it into hell..

I really don't think that would annoy him.

[understatement]

Xykon
IFCC (too abstract)
Qarr
Greg
Bozzok
Kubota
Crystal
Thog
Vector Legion
Zz'drti
Sabine
Nale
Redcloak
ABD
Hilgya


a list of villains sorted by their amount of friendship/love

It's a crappy algorithm but apart from the first four or five, all of them are capable of empathy, dedication, friendship, and love. Crystal is loyal to Bozzok. Thog is loyal and attached to Nale. Tarquin loves his sons (for simplification). Laurin loves her daughter. Miron is friends with Laurin. Malack loved his family and was friends with Durkon. Z is friends with Nale. Sabine loves Nale. Nale loves her and is friends with Z. Redcloak loved his family and does care for the goblins. ABD loved her son. Hilgya loves her son.

All are still very much Evil.

[GrayGriffin]

I'd put Laurin way higher on the love scale than Tarquin. She actively tries to keep her daughter out of danger and is also happy to let her take her own path, while Tarquin's love for his sons is more like fondness for a pet that you put down once it's no longer willing to do tricks for you.

[understatement]

I'd put Laurin way higher on the love scale than Tarquin. She actively tries to keep her daughter out of danger and is also happy to let her take her own path, while Tarquin's love for his sons is more like fondness for a pet that you put down once it's no longer willing to do tricks for you.

Yeah, I just lumped the Legion together.

Tarquin
Miron
Malack
Laurin

[Wizard_Lizard]

I really don't think that would annoy him.
He got annoyed that he only got charged with manslaughter....
I think he would be annoyed if he got lumped with the neutral evil morons

[D.One]

He got annoyed that he only got charged with manslaughter....
I think he would be annoyed if he got lumped with the neutral evil morons

Yes, those weak posers can't handle intense hardcore introspection.

[snowblizz]

It really isn't. Nothing about Belkar's changes have been about him valuing order or stability more. They have been about him growing deeper attachments and being willing/able to feel remorse/empathy for other beings, even if he does have to be fairly close to them for it.

Loyalty can have many reasons, "adherence to structure" being just one of them (and definitely not being Belkar's). Unless you want to say that Elan and Sabine (the latter literally being a creature of Chaos) aren't Chaotic.

There is a kernel of truth to it.

Remember Shojo's Advice to Belkar. It wasn't to be good. It was, in essence how a Chaotic character can navigate a mostly Lawful society. AKA Get what you want without them getting you.

None of Belkar's changes have been hugely alignment shifting, but he pays more lipservice to both Law and Good than he used to, mostly because it lets him get away with Chaotic Evilness.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

a list of villains sorted by their amount of friendship/love

Xykon
IFCC (too abstract)
Qarr
<snip>

Huh.

I'd put the IFCC way, way, way lower in that list. Their whole shtick is that their friendship allows them to overcome their differences in approach, and indeed create a whole greater than the sum of its parts. I don't see their collaboration being "too abstract".

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Huh.

I'd put the IFCC way, way, way lower in that list. Their whole shtick is that their friendship allows them to overcome their differences in approach, and indeed create a whole greater than the sum of its parts. I don't see their collaboration being "too abstract".

Grey Wolf
I don’t know if they are friends or just clever enough to realize that they can fight the Greater Good together and only then get rid of the Lesser Evil.

Edit: Basically, the IFFC aims to destroy the forces of Good, but to what end? A cosmos where evil of all stripes can live together in disharmony or a temporary alliance where their ennemity is put on hold for just a little while (cosmoligical time wise).

[wumpus]

I think you are reading way too much into it. There is an article on this website written by some guy named Rich Burlew about the dangers of assuming that evil characters cannot be loyal totheir friends.

http://www.giantitp.com/articles/XbsQgS9YYu9g3HZBAGE.html

Rich also defines alignment (or the "real you") as "how you act on your worst day". Belkar happily kills for fun on even his good days, so I'd hate to think of him being put to the test.

Don't forget that the Deva dug a single item out of Roy's past: he may have acted completely lawful good after that, but if he hadn't immediately corrected his error he would be tossed in the neutral pile. You don't eliminate 9 kilonazis of evil by simply faking being less evil, which is pretty much where Belkar stands right now.

Rich has clearly showed that Belkar is on a redemption arc. He also has a strict time limit and it is by no means clear that he will meet his redemption before expiring. Belkar is still clearly well in the deep side of the alignment pool and his only chance is some sort of heroic self sacrifice (thanks to his deadline). Redemption is not for everyone, and probably not for Belkar.

[drazen]

There is a kernel of truth to it.

Remember Shojo's Advice to Belkar. It wasn't to be good. It was, in essence how a Chaotic character can navigate a mostly Lawful society. AKA Get what you want without them getting you.

None of Belkar's changes have been hugely alignment shifting, but he pays more lipservice to both Law and Good than he used to, mostly because it lets him get away with Chaotic Evilness.


Seems like there's a little more going on than that. I'm not saying he's not Evil, but Belkar is suddenly questioning/struggling with his evil, because he can't comprehend Durkon's sacrifice to save him, and deep down, maybe he doesn't feel like he really deserved it. That step isn't nothing. His evil isn't making him feel better anymore.

#1098 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1098.html) "He didn't blame me." (granted, Durkon said it was silly to count on Belkar to begin with, which is a little bit of backhanded forgiveness, but it obviously got through)

#1115 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1115.html) "Stupid hairy self-sacrificing co-worker." "I don't have to worry about... picking an unwinnable fight with a super-powered vampire cleric to distract him from killing my idiot teammate who's never been anything but a jackass to me." Belkar's expression when he says this last bit says it all, really. It's pretty clear he at least doesn't entirely believe what he's saying in that panel. I think he wants to still believe it, but it's not quite working for him anymore.

#1130 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html) "How dare you make me think about things, Durkon! How could you not think about how your selflessness would affect ME!"

#1151 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1151.html) - Durkon explicitly tells Belkar that more people don't repent from evil because it feels bad to admit you've done bad, which is something #1115 and #1130 show that Belkar is clearly struggling with that. Of course he finds a very Belkar-ish solution in saying that it would take "intense hardcore introspection" to change which "weak posers" can't do. Sure, his apology for committing assault with a palm tree isn't much, but he has to start somewhere.

He still enjoys a good fight, but even that can get overdone for him now. #1068 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1068.html) - "I have stabbed so many faces today. I'm good."

I don't think he's changed alignment. I do think he's moved a blip toward Neutral. I do think if he changes alignments it would be to Chaotic Neutral, not TN or any Good.

Has Belkar even really even committed a single evil act since stabbing the Oracle? All I can think of is his palm-tree assault, and I guess he kind of half-assed it in the Buggy Lou fight until the bug-men suggested they'd dine on kitty soup. Beyond that, it's pretty much been limited to a bunch of snarky comments.

[littlebum2002]

The vampires barely had to try to get him to "protect V" in the sense that "protecting V" meant "hurting Roy." Not the best argument there.

Regardless, he spent a good deal of his life hurting people, killing people, and selling people into slavery. Dropping a dollar into the Red Cross cup ain't gonna get him out of the hole he's dug himself, ya know?

I may be wrong, but I don't think that's how alignment works in D&D. If you spend your entire life being evil, then start being good, I don't think you need to make up for all your previous misdeeds before your alignment changes. After all, think about the opposite: If you spend your entire life being a paladin and saving thousands of innocent lives, and then suddenly start murdering innocent people, do you really need to murder enough innocent people to make up for ll the lives you saved before your alignment changes? No, when you start murdering innocent people your alignment changes, either to Neutral or Evil. Your past good deeds aren't taken into account.

So the same should be true for Belkar. His past is irrelevant. What we need to ask ourselves is, right now, is he acting Evil or Neutral?

(Again, it is entirely possible that I am misunderstanding how D&D alignment works, because I am far from being the most knowledgeable person here, so anyone can feel free to correct me. Also, it is entirely possible that the OOTS alignment system works differently than the D&D alignment system, so that may change things as well)

[hamishspence]

I may be wrong, but I don't think that's how alignment works in D&D. If you spend your entire life being evil, then start being good, I don't think you need to make up for all your previous misdeeds before your alignment changes

IMO you do need to at least show signs of repenting or regretting all your previous misdeeds, and of seeking to make up for them.

[Wizard_Lizard]

IMO you do need to at least show signs of repenting or regretting all your previous misdeeds, and of seeking to make up for them.

It is harder to rid yourself of the evil alignment.
But for Belkar to become neutral, does he have to be [|]good?[/|]

[Peelee]

He got annoyed that he only got charged with manslaughter....
He was annoyed at not getting full credit. Still didn't want to go to prison, and still tried to get out of it.

When Girard's illusion hit, Belkar's dream wasn't in the Abyss, ya know?

I may be wrong, but I don't think that's how alignment works in D&D. If you spend your entire life being evil, then start being good, I don't think you need to make up for all your previous misdeeds before your alignment changes. After all, think about the opposite: If you spend your entire life being a paladin and saving thousands of innocent lives, and then suddenly start murdering innocent people, do you really need to murder enough innocent people to make up for ll the lives you saved before your alignment changes? No, when you start murdering innocent people your alignment changes, either to Neutral or Evil. Your past good deeds aren't taken into account.

I agree, it is harder to end up Good.

[D.One]

It is harder to rid yourself of the evil alignment.
But for Belkar to become neutral, does he have to be [|]good?[/|]

He may be a Bad Boy, but he doesn't have to be bad. (imagine Zangief speaking this with a fake russian accent)

[Jannoire]

When Girard's illusion hit, Belkar's dream wasn't in the Abyss, ya know?

That's because he didn't die...

[Peelee]

That's because he didn't die...

I think you might be missing the point. The point is Belkar's shared illusion did not include going to the Abyss, and he was not annoyed by that, which drastically undercuts the claim that Belkar would be annoyed by not going to the Abyss.

[Emnom]

Comic 606 He pretends to have character development. He is still CE

[Wizard_Lizard]

Comic 606 He pretends to have character development. He is still CE
or is he only pretejding to pretend to have character degelopement?

[MartianInvader]

I think he's showing genuine character development. I think he genuinely feels bad he hit Durkon in the face with that palm tree. I don't think it's at the point of an alignment change yet, but he's on the path.

[Doug Lampert]

I think he's showing genuine character development. I think he genuinely feels bad he hit Durkon in the face with that palm tree. I don't think it's at the point of an alignment change yet, but he's on the path.

I'll agree, but there's a point, having mild regret that you viciously assaulted a teammate who later died to save you, is still a long long way from non-evil.

Evil can have teammates that the character cares about. Evil can cooperate with teammates. Evil can regret hurting teammates.

Belkar isn't yet showing ANY signs of good or even neutral, he's showing signs of maybe being ONLY as evil as the IFCC or Sabine, both of whom are capable of working as part of a team better than pre-pretending to have character development Belkar.

The Giant sets the bar for neutral vastly lower than I would, but that said, I still don't see Belkar doing any actual good deeds to balance off all the Evil he's done. The Giant's quote for Belkar's alignment is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?6483-Belkar-s-Alignment&p=559967#post559967).

Consider the phrase:
In order to be Neutral you need to either a.) commit no Good or Evil acts at all, or b.) commit a more-or-less equal number of Good and Evil acts.

We now have Belkar feeling very mild regret for an Evil act, but I don't think we're anywhere close to a more-or-less equal number of Good and Evil acts.

[archon_huskie]

I mean… …He certainly has done some evil stuff… …But… …Recently he is pushing more chaotic neutral even to chaotic good at times…

So let us discuss… the homicidal halfling…

What do you mean still? He's always been Lawful Good!

[PontificatusRex]

Mechanically, in #1130 we see him being zapped awake by the pain of having his Protection from Evil pin activated, so the Universe still regards him as evil.

[Peelee]

I think he's showing genuine character development. I think he genuinely feels bad he hit Durkon in the face with that palm tree. I don't think it's at the point of an alignment change yet, but he's on the path.

Belkar's caracter development makes him less one-dimensional, not less Evil.

[Ruck]

Rich also defines alignment (or the "real you") as "how you act on your worst day".

[citation needed]

[hamishspence]

This quote comes close, but it doesn't exactly say that:


You reveal who you really are under stress—stress doesn't magically turn you into someone else unrelated to who you usually are. The fact that you may not have ever known that this is who you were doesn't change anything.

I don't think Tarquin sat around thinking, "Ha ha! I am fooling them into thinking I love my family! I am so clever!" I think he thought that he really loved his family, right up until the point where loving his family conflicted with him being in total control. And then both he and the readers got to see which one of the two really mattered to him.

In other words, when I use the word "facade," I am not referring to a conscious artifice on Tarquin's part. I am referring to the idea that the true core of his being is hidden—possibly even from himself—until the crucible of the story burns it out of him. This is why it was in conflict with comments on this thread about people in real life who segregate their evil actions from the love of family—because in real life, there's no guarantee that such a crucible moment will ever occur.

[Jannoire]

I think you might be missing the point. The point is Belkar's shared illusion did not include going to the Abyss, and he was not annoyed by that, which drastically undercuts the claim that Belkar would be annoyed by not going to the Abyss.

What illusion did Belkar share? Do you mean the one in the pyramid? That he shares with Mr Scruffy?
I might be wrong, but I recall reading that that was supposed to be in the living world, sharing a nice meal with a resurrected Shojo and their beloved cat.

[Peelee]

What illusion did Belkar share? Do you mean the one in the pyramid? That he shares with Mr Scruffy?
I might be wrong, but I recall reading that that was supposed to be in the living world, sharing a nice meal with a resurrected Shojo and their beloved cat.

Nah, you're right and I'm wrong. Still, Belkar griped about the legal charges not being appropriate, but still wanted to stay out of prison. Don't see why it'd be any different for the afterlife, especially considering it's notably worse than prison.

[Ruck]

This quote comes close, but it doesn't exactly say that:

No, I don't really think it says that. The phrase in quotes is something Durkula says to Durkon, which not only is later refuted by Durkon, but even if it wasn't, it would take a lot to convince me Durkula was acting as a mouthpiece for Rich in the strip.

[Jannoire]

I'm no expert on D&D afterlife and by no means on OotS afterlife, but I would guess Belkar would prefer an eternity chilling with Mr S in the CN afterlife to having to endure an eternity (of pain, probably) in the CE afterlife.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I'm no expert on D&D afterlife and by no means on OotS afterlife, but I would guess Belkar would prefer an eternity chilling with Mr S in the CN afterlife to having to endure an eternity (of pain, probably) in the CE afterlife.

But shojo is chaotic good not neutral.....

[factotum]

I'm no expert on D&D afterlife and by no means on OotS afterlife, but I would guess Belkar would prefer an eternity chilling with Mr S in the CN afterlife to having to endure an eternity (of pain, probably) in the CE afterlife.

Belkar is a high-level character. He wouldn't be wasted by just tormenting him, they've have him on the front lines of the Blood War. Fighting and killing for eternity? Heck yes Belkar would love that!

[Jannoire]

But shojo is chaotic good not neutral.....

Okay, maybe saying Mr S wasn't that great... I meant his cat, Mr Scruffy. He obviously wouldn't be chilling with Shojo.
I don't think he will have enough time to change to CG, even if he'd try. But I see CN in the realm of possibilities...

[Doug Lampert]

Belkar is a high-level character. He wouldn't be wasted by just tormenting him, they've have him on the front lines of the Blood War. Fighting and killing for eternity? Heck yes Belkar would love that!

The living Belkar is high level. He dies, he becomes a 2HD petitioner like everyone else, and can eventually hope to advance to Dretch.

If his soul has any extra soul energy, whichever of the evil gods and established demon princess happens to grab it will not even say "thank you very much" as they chow down on a nice meal of soul stuff to help power the only important person in the multiverse (hint: according to the demon prince or evil god, that most important person isn't Belkar).

The ILLUSION that you might get a better deal is part of what Evil sells.

"I'm special, I'll be at the top or the right hand man of the guy at the top" is said by any number of evil guys before they end up as an entry level chew-toy in the abyss.

[KorvinStarmast]

Belkar's caracter development makes him less one-dimensional, not less Evil. Thank you.
Belkar is a high-level character. He wouldn't be wasted by just tormenting him, they've have him on the front lines of the Blood War. Fighting and killing for eternity? Heck yes Belkar would love that!Sexy, shoeless god of war ...

[Bacon Elemental]

The living Belkar is high level. He dies, he becomes a 2HD petitioner like everyone else, and can eventually hope to advance to Dretch.

If his soul has any extra soul energy, whichever of the evil gods and established demon princess happens to grab it will not even say "thank you very much" as they chow down on a nice meal of soul stuff to help power the only important person in the multiverse (hint: according to the demon prince or evil god, that most important person isn't Belkar).

The ILLUSION that you might get a better deal is part of what Evil sells.

"I'm special, I'll be at the top or the right hand man of the guy at the top" is said by any number of evil guys before they end up as an entry level chew-toy in the abyss.

What about those incredibly powerful souls that the IFCC had on them? If all dead people become petitioners, how did they retain those powerful casters, who only needed a host to begin slinging around epic magic again?

[Doug Lampert]

What about those incredibly powerful souls that the IFCC had on them? If all dead people become petitioners, how did they retain those powerful casters, who only needed a host to begin slinging around epic magic again?

Special once every hundred years deal, and note: Those powerful casters NEEDED a host to begin slinging around epic magic again. If someone uses powerful magic to stuff Belkar's soul back into a living body, he'll return to being dangerous.

That says nothing positive about what he can do without the assistance of powerful magic.

Those Epic casters weren't on the top in their afterlives, they were happy to get a bit of time away from them. Belkar is nowhere near that strong. He will also not be on the top in his afterlife unless Rich does something odd about his death that doesn't involve his soul getting eaten.

[RaveDave92084]

When it comes to Belkar, I see him as still chaotic evil, still measured in kilonazis.

Whatever character development he has actually achieved, he is still in the deepest darkest depths of evil.


Evil has friends
Evil loves specific people
Evil will sacrifice for specific people
Evil will express regret and remorse over hurting specific people



Metaphor time!!!!

Imagine good/evil as the earth as we know it. Don't get too specific with it, or you will kill the metaphor.

Good is North Pole
Evil is South Pole
Neutrality is the Equator

At the start of the comic Belkar had a 26-room mansion firmly planted squarely at the South Pole. Maybe the South Pole is in the middle of his house.

During the hippy vision quest thing he did, he decided to walk outside his house to pretend to smell the flowers, like the other idiots are doing. He found out he likes some of those flowers.

His journey is and was going north, but he is still at the south pole, and doesn't even get close enough to see the Antarctic ice shelf, let alone Patagonia in Argentina or Pretoria, South Africa. I don't see getting to the equator (neutrality) as a remote possibility at this point.

I love the guy, I love what he does for the story, I love his character development; but I don't see redemption at this point in the story.

It is a possibility, maybe based on my own pessimistically hopeful nature, but not a probability.

Hmmmm, I think have a deceased horse to bury, need to stop beating it, I am not sure it likes the beatings.

[KorvinStarmast]

Hmmmm, I think have a deceased horse to bury, need to stop beating it, I am not sure it likes the beatings. While I began to sniff a bit of glue when we got to Pretoria, I like your illustration.

[Riftwolf]

I think you might be missing the point. The point is Belkar's shared illusion did not include going to the Abyss, and he was not annoyed by that, which drastically undercuts the claim that Belkar would be annoyed by not going to the Abyss.

In Belkars shared illusion, he didn't go to the CG afterlife either. There's a Giant quote clarifying that. It doesn't make any sense to us, but it makes sense to Mr. Scruffy, which is all it needed to do.
I don't think Belkar would be annoyed at not going to the Abyss (seeing as it's not exactly a CE Pleasuredome), but the illusion can't be considered evidence of anything other than Belkar wanting to look after his cat.

[Peelee]

In Belkars shared illusion, he didn't go to the CG afterlife either. There's a Giant quote clarifying that. It doesn't make any sense to us, but it makes sense to Mr. Scruffy, which is all it needed to do.
I don't think Belkar would be annoyed at not going to the Abyss (seeing as it's not exactly a CE Pleasuredome), but the illusion can't be considered evidence of anything other than Belkar wanting to look after his cat.

Too late, I already copped to being wrong on that! :smalltongue:

[woweedd]

I mean, he’s less Evil then he used to be, but dude was basically carving out a third sub-basement of the barrel. To redeem, you need to, first and foremost, acknowledge that your past actions were WRONG, and Belkar’s only just now doing that. If he had a year or two, it might be possible for him to, slowly and painstakingly, repent. As stands...Pretty much his only chance is pulling a Darth Vader-style “sacrifice yourself to save the entire world” thing, like some sort of inverse Familcide, but, given that said incident DIDN’T make V Evil, although it would have had they not repented, i’m not sure any single act of Good, even one of that scale, would lump him into CN. He hasn’t done anything worse then CN this whole book, but neither has he done much Good...Hard to judge.

Also, I imagine Belkar would be offended to be put in Limbo rather then The Abyss...But not because he wants to be in The Abyss, just because he takes pride in being CE, or, at least, he did before his recent conversations with Durkon. Heck, if my theory pans out, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Epilogue featured Belkar standing in front of a Sladd, as he rants about he was CE all his life.

[Witty Username]

I think he is still evil he is just smarter about it.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I mean, he’s less Evil then he used to be, but dude was basically carving out a third sub-basement of the barrel. To redeem, you need to, first and foremost, acknowledge that your past actions were WRONG, and Belkar’s only just now doing that. If he had a year or two, it might be possible for him to, slowly and painstakingly, repent. As stands...Pretty much his only chance is pulling a Darth Vader-style “sacrifice yourself to save the entire world” thing, like some sort of inverse Familcide, but, given that said incident DIDN’T make V Evil, although it would have had they not repented, i’m not sure any single act of Good, even one of that scale, would lump him into CN. He hasn’t done anything worse then CN this whole book, but neither has he done much Good...Hard to judge.

Also, I imagine Belkar would be offended to be put in Limbo rather then The Abyss...But not because he wants to be in The Abyss, just because he takes pride in being CE, or, at least, he did before his recent conversations with Durkon. Heck, if my theory pans out, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Epilogue featured Belkar standing in front of a Sladd, as he rants about he was CE all his life.

YES!!!!! Youbfinally understood what I meant!!!!

[understatement]

Belkar's soul is going to get annihilated so the readers won't be sure what afterlife he'll deserve.

...is my personal theory.

[apocolypse101]

In my opinion, he's loyal to those that have earned his loyalty, but he's still selfish and a bastard to everyone else.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Belkar's soul is going to get annihilated so the readers won't be sure what afterlife he'll deserve.

...is my personal theory.

that would make sense... considering the prophecies.

Also, does anyone know whether the prphecies state Belkar, specificslly. because th halfling could mean serini.....

[Peelee]

that would make sense... considering the prophecies.

Also, does anyone know whether the prphecies state Belkar, specificslly. because th halfling could mean serini.....

Like the prophecy that says "Belkar will draw his last breath - ever - before the end of the year"? Or the one that says "the halfling shouldn't bother funding his IRA," where the Oracle is clearly talking about a male halfling?

[Rodin]

Like the prophecy that says "Belkar will draw his last breath - ever - before the end of the year"? Or the one that says "the halfling shouldn't bother funding his IRA," where the Oracle is clearly talking about a male halfling?

Clearly, there is some other halfling called Belkar, who will suffer a nasty cake batter accident the day before he was going to retire.

[Peelee]

Clearly, there is some other halfling called Belkar, who will suffer a nasty cake batter accident the day before he was going to retire.

Normally I'm not a fan of theories like that, but yours wove everything together so well I'll make an exception! I assume the cake batter caused a choking incident.

[Jasdoif]

Normally I'm not a fan of theories like that, but yours wove everything together so well I'll make an exception! I assume the cake batter caused a choking incident.Belkar balked at Betty Botter's bakery, but she'd have made the batter better.

[Peelee]

Belkar balked at Betty Botter's bakery, but she'd have made the batter better.

Bet he's bitter.

[woweedd]

Bet he's bitter.
Bitter Belkar Bodes Badly, Bro.

[Fish]

It depends on whether you consider alignment “the totality of your past actions and intentions, the sum of which determines which afterlife you deserve” or “your organizational mindset and driving purpose.” Neither definition really suits all cases.

[understatement]

Based on the "it's the effort that counts" vibe, it's probably that as long as you're alive (aka having direct influence upon the world around you) you can be redeemed.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Based on the "it's the effort that counts" vibe, it's probably that as long as you're alive (aka having direct influence upon the world around you) you can be redeemed.

He does appear to make an effort towards being chaotic neutral....
Or maybe I play my CN characters a little more homicidlly...
(shoot, that's most of my characters....)

[Peelee]

He does appear to make an effort towards being chaotic neutral....

No, he makes an effort toward being a team player. Dream Shojo never said, "hey, stop being so kill-happy."

[Fyraltari]

Hey, he had remorse over ripping off that gnome girl and he saved the bounty hunters because he could relate to them. He may not like it, but he is becoming better less bad in non-team related ways.

[Peelee]

Hey, he had remorse over ripping off that gnome girl and he saved the bounty hunters because he could relate to them. He may not like it, but he is becoming better less bad in non-team related ways.

Is an unrepentant murderer who ripped off a gnome less bad about ripping off a gnome that much less bad, though? At absolute best, it's baby steps when he got off an intercontinental flight, is all I'm saying.

[Fyraltari]

Is an unrepentant murderer who ripped off a gnome less bad about ripping off a gnome that much less bad, though? At absolute best, it's baby steps when he got off an intercontinental flight, is all I'm saying.

Gotta start somewhere. It’s not like I said he was a good person or anything, but one must give due credits.

[Rrmcklin]

While I understand the point Peelee is trying to make, I feel like he also comes pretty close to arguing that "redemption isn't possible" and I don't think that's supposed to be the vibe we're supposed to be taking away from Belkar and his character arc at all.

[Fish]

I think it’s because you’re discussing two different things, as I said. There’s a person’s mental framework, and whether their actions live up to that label.

Take a chaotic evil guard who lives in a lawful good society. He enforces all the same laws as his fellow guards, but he took the job so he could legally hurt people and he enjoys punishing the wrongdoers a little too much. The totality of his actions say he’s lawful good ... if we ignore his mindset and motivation. (And some of you might say “he’s not chaotic evil if he doesn’t act like it.” That’s the problem with the totality-of-actions argument in a nutshell.)

[Peelee]

While I understand the point Peelee is trying to make, I feel like he also comes pretty close to arguing that "redemption isn't possible"

Nah; I'm a very vocal supporter of "oh hey look V is totally on a redemption arc." Redemption for Belkar is absolutely possible, and I'll jump on that train the second he makes any indication whatsoever that killing people or selling people into slavery or any of his heinous actions were wrong, instead of just not taking a gnome on a date after scamming her. Hell, it should be even easier for Belkar, because he didn't commit friggin' genocide, and yet.

[RatElemental]

Nah; I'm a very vocal supporter of "oh hey look V is totally on a redemption arc." Redemption for Belkar is absolutely possible, and I'll jump on that train the second he makes any indication whatsoever that killing people or selling people into slavery or any of his heinous actions were wrong, instead of just not taking a gnome on a date after scamming her. Hell, it should be even easier for Belkar, because he didn't commit friggin' genocide, and yet.

Well, since Durkon gave him a different way to think about it, I think we might actually get some introspection and remorse from Belkar at some point before the comic's end.

[Wizard_Lizard]

well, since durkon gave him a different way to think about it, i think we might actually get some introspection and remorse from belkar at some point before the comic's end.

hardcore introspection!!!

[Senamar]

Like the prophecy that says "Belkar will draw his last breath - ever - before the end of the year"? Or the one that says "the halfling shouldn't bother funding his IRA," where the Oracle is clearly talking about a male halfling?

Maybe he'll loot a ring of no-breathing or something. The prophecy could be fulfilled in a number of surprising ways.

[Peelee]

Maybe he'll loot a ring of no-breathing or something. The prophecy could be fulfilled in a number of surprising ways.

There's multiple prophecies, though, and even if Belkar gets, say, iridescent spindle and clear spindle ioun stones (lets him survive without air and food/water, respectively), and gets Plane Shifted over to the elemental plane of earth with infinite gold and diamonds, there's still the unexplained bit of "why did the Oracle take such pleasure in that?"

[RatElemental]

There's multiple prophecies, though, and even if Belkar gets, say, iridescent spindle and clear spindle ioun stones (lets him survive without air and food/water, respectively), and gets Plane Shifted over to the elemental plane of earth with infinite gold and diamonds, there's still the unexplained bit of "why did the Oracle take such pleasure in that?"

Because he gets separated from Mr. Scruffy?

Though if he somehow achieves immortality and then gets trapped in a sealed vault on another plane for eternity I think that qualifies as a fate worse than death to many people. At least an afterlife has things happen and you eventually stop existing.

[Fish]

We might also ask, “Why did the Oracle tell Roy at all?”

If Roy never acts on this information (and likewise anyone else who knows), then either the Oracle just wanted Roy to know, or Rich was using the Oracle to do some clumsy foreshadowing. Neither of those, as far as I can see, conveys an in-story reason for the Oracle to reveal the information.

On the other hand, if someone can be expected to act on this information, the Oracle’s purpose could be to provoke said action. For instance:

Someone tells Belkar he’s doomed to die anyway, so Belkar sacrifices himself. The Oracle could be said to have provoked the sacrifice, an event at which he might reasonably take pleasure.
Someone who knows the prophecy tries to prevent Belkar’s death. Whether the intervention “works,” the Oracle provoked the attempt, with whatever attendant consequences ensue.
Someone who knows the prophecy stands by and lets Belkar die, despite being in a position to rescue him. This doesn’t seem like the sort of story arc Rich would go for, as it is pretty fatalist and would constitute a betrayal of Belkar not to try.

[Rrmcklin]

We might also ask, “Why did the Oracle tell Roy at all?”

If Roy never acts on this information (and likewise anyone else who knows), then either the Oracle just wanted Roy to know, or Rich was using the Oracle to do some clumsy foreshadowing. Neither of those, as far as I can see, conveys an in-story reason for the Oracle to reveal the information.

On the other hand, if someone can be expected to act on this information, the Oracle’s purpose could be to provoke said action. For instance:

Someone tells Belkar he’s doomed to die anyway, so Belkar sacrifices himself. The Oracle could be said to have provoked the sacrifice, an event at which he might reasonably take pleasure.
Someone who knows the prophecy tries to prevent Belkar’s death. Whether the intervention “works,” the Oracle provoked the attempt, with whatever attendant consequences ensue.
Someone who knows the prophecy stands by and lets Belkar die, despite being in a position to rescue him. This doesn’t seem like the sort of story arc Rich would go for, as it is pretty fatalist and would constitute a betrayal of Belkar not to try.

Because the Oracle is an ass who enjoys taunting people? That's definitely what he was doing to Belkar, at first. The full prophecy to Roy might very well have just be an attempt at clarification on the Giant's part. One that didn't work, because:

1) a lot of people automatically distrust prophecies when they seem to clearly be indicating one thing and 2) because a lot of people like Belkar and thus try to come up with ways all the things the Oracle said and his enjoyment of them could mean anything besides Belkar's permanent death.

[Mandor]

I think it’s because you’re discussing two different things, as I said. There’s a person’s mental framework, and whether their actions live up to that label.

Take a chaotic evil guard who lives in a lawful good society. He enforces all the same laws as his fellow guards, but he took the job so he could legally hurt people and he enjoys punishing the wrongdoers a little too much. The totality of his actions say he’s lawful good ... if we ignore his mindset and motivation. (And some of you might say “he’s not chaotic evil if he doesn’t act like it.” That’s the problem with the totality-of-actions argument in a nutshell.)

Said Chaotic Evil guard probably wasn't on the job 24/7/365 having no other interactions with any other sapient life forms except while acting as a guard.
So there would generally be other "off-the-clock actions" that would seal the deal of them NOT making Celestia.
Still, I grant the hypothetical argument.

On the flip side though, take your random rampaging warlord who routinely enslaves and murdalizes and rapes and puts entire cities to the sword for giggles, burns people alive, etc.
If, at the last five seconds of his life he has a MASSIVE epiphany and truly regrets and repents every action he's ever taken and becomes absolutely Lawful Good in every possible manner for those last 5 seconds....
yea, too little too late, and if he's really LG, he should understand and accept "too little too late" when his judgement comes.

So I'm sure the Powers That Be kinda have to case-by-case it all.

[Tvtyrant]

Plus he has spent his life doing evil. You don't get to counteract a lifetime of evil with the occasional good-ish act, especially if said good act is being done for largely selfish reasons.

I don't think Good and Evil work like that. You don't have a ledger and once you get a net balance you become that alignment, you are good or evil via intent and attempted actions. If Belkar sincerely sought to redeem himself and personally apologize to every person he hurt, then tripped and died on the first day he still would no longer be evil. Maybe not Good yet, but certainly not evil.

Edit: Belkar is still totally evil though. There isn't much suggesting any transition in that, he came to a small personality change by realizing they were going to kill him if he didn't act better. His relationship with Durkon is touching but hardly enough to shift him from self-serving jerk to good guy.

[RatElemental]

I don't think Good and Evil work like that. You don't have a ledger and once you get a net balance you become that alignment, you are good or evil via intent and attempted actions. If Belkar sincerely sought to redeem himself and personally apologize to every person he hurt, then tripped and died on the first day he still would no longer be evil. Maybe not Good yet, but certainly not evil.

Edit: Belkar is still totally evil though. There isn't much suggesting any transition in that, he came to a small personality change by realizing they were going to kill him if he didn't act better. His relationship with Durkon is touching but hardly enough to shift him from self-serving jerk to good guy.

It can shift him from murderous psycho to self serving jerk though. Self serving jerks tend to fall into neutral, see: Enor and Gannji, Pre-Realization Vaarsuvius, Therkla, Julia, etc.

[Fish]

Said Chaotic Evil guard probably wasn't on the job 24/7/365 having no other interactions with any other sapient life forms except while acting as a guard.
So there would generally be other "off-the-clock actions" that would seal the deal of them NOT making Celestia.
Still, I grant the hypothetical argument.
The CE guard can love his family, protect his home, and so forth. And even if he does the occasional evil thing on his off-duty time, does it outweigh his other actions? I can’t answer that.

The question is not only, “What other actions can he be measured by?” but “Should we only measure based on actions taken?” I think you see my point, though, that neither actions nor intents alone are sufficient scales. It’s hard to develop a hard-and-fast rule for morality that covers all the possible configurations.

On the flip side though, take your random rampaging warlord who routinely enslaves and murdalizes and rapes and puts entire cities to the sword for giggles, burns people alive, etc.
If, at the last five seconds of his life he has a MASSIVE epiphany and truly regrets and repents every action he's ever taken and becomes absolutely Lawful Good in every possible manner for those last 5 seconds....
yea, too little too late, and if he's really LG, he should understand and accept "too little too late" when his judgement comes.
Even if he’s got more than 5 seconds. As long as he doesn’t have enough time to do more good than he ever did evil, the argument still applies.

[KorvinStarmast]

Even if he’s got more than 5 seconds. As long as he doesn’t have enough time to do more good than he ever did evil, the argument still applies.
Redemption isn't a digital thing.
It is an analogue thing, a subjective thing, and a non linear thing.

It's a thing from the heart, not the mind.

[Fish]

Obviously. I have been arguing that “totality of actions” is an insufficient metric.

I was merely pointing out that, in the argument presented, the five-second timeframe was arbitrary. With respect to the position being forwarded, any duration inadequate for atonement would do — not that I believed in the “atonement as a totality of actions” position myself.

[Fey]

I mean… …He certainly has done some evil stuff… …But… …Recently he is pushing more chaotic neutral even to chaotic good at times…

So let us discuss… the homicidal halfling…

Here we go again...
https://i.imgflip.com/3277hj.jpg (https://imgflip.com/i/3277hj)via Imgflip Meme Generator (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator)

[Wizard_Lizard]

Redemption isn't a digital thing.
It is an analogue thing, a subjective thing, and a non linear thing.

It's a thing from the heart, not the mind.

the heart is for blood pumping. Why does everyone relate it to emotion.

[Fyraltari]

the heart is for blood pumping. Why does everyone relate it to emotion.

That I can tell you in one word (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWSoYCetG6A)!

Seriously, though, it's because your heart beats faster and stronger when you get emotionnally invested.

[Wizard_Lizard]

That I can tell you in one word (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWSoYCetG6A)!

Seriously, though, it's because your heart beats faster and stronger when you get emotionnally invested.

thanks!
the problem with this forum is that when I ask snarky rhetorical questions, I get scientific answers.
Serves me right...