The problem with the lich.

[Strytllr77]

I have a problem that I don’t know what to do with. Basically the party has captured a lich, removed her hands and tongue, cast spare the dying and placed her in a bag of holding to keep her from resurrecting. I had used this lich 2 times to kill off 3 party members before having her flee each time before the parry caught her. She’s inside there with the disembodied floating skull that has inmprisoned within it a court jester.

Is there a way for her to get out of this and escape again?

[Trustypeaches]

Is there a reason this lich needs to escape and reenter the story?

To be honest, it sounds like the players were exceptionally clever, and you may want to question whether it's necessary to undermine that.

That said... what else is in the bag of holding? Anything that could be manipulated with just the lich's mouth? Does the lich have any allies that know of their location (or could discern it). Maybe these allies will pursue the players and attempt to retrieve the lich from the bag of holding.

[Willie the Duck]

Well,--

Spare the dying has no effect on undead.

Bags of holding can be dealt with just like any other bag -- climb out, tear one's way out (yes, tearing it means the lich escapes to the Astral, but that might be worth it to them).

The rules have very little to say on the matter of limb and tongue loss, but it is rather crippling to a spellcaster. Run it as you see fit, but whatever rules you use for the lich, do for the PCs.

Other than that, the only thing that the lich has going for it is that the party can keep it in an airtight place, while living opponents if you did that, they'd be dead (like real dead, not un-dead). The lich is still a dangerous monster they are probably keeping on their person (or wherever they keep that bag), that's inherently dangerous, even if the lich can't cast spells until it finds some kind of rejuvenatory magic (or destroys itself and regens near its phylactery).

[JNAProductions]

It sounds like the players have successfully defeated a lich. Don't take that away from them unfairly.

[Unoriginal]

I have a problem that I don’t know what to do with. Basically the party has captured a lich, removed her hands and tongue, cast spare the dying and placed her in a bag of holding to keep her from resurrecting. I had used this lich 2 times to kill off 3 party members before having her flee each time before the parry caught her. She’s inside there with the disembodied floating skull that has inmprisoned within it a court jester.

Is there a way for her to get out of this and escape again?

Spare the Dying doesn't work on Undead.

Also I don't think Liches need their tongues for verbal components. Demiliches are full skulls and they can cast spells.


It sounds like the players have successfully defeated a lich. Don't take that away from them unfairly.

I'd have agreed if they had actually incapacitated the Lich, but just being put in a bag of holding wouldn't do it. They should have put her in a block of concrete or the like.

The Bag of Holding doesn't say anything about restraining beings put into it, so it should be assumed the lich can still act unhindered, aside from the lack of hands and tongue. As said above, she might decide to just pierce the bag and go for a small Astral trip.

[Sigreid]

The litch really just needs to find a way to destroy its body. What's in the bag?

[Hobbo Jim]

While I agree with trustypeaches that clever ways of dealing with a monster should not be undermined for the sake of "Ha! I did it again, better kill him for good", There is no reason that a bag of holding is a sufficient prison for a Lich. Given that it is a Lich's deal that they decay, I find it very unlikely that a tongue is necessary for them to speak. Not having hands does limit their spells, but I'm positive that there are a decent number of spells to work with. As stated already, "spare the dying" explicitly states that it has no effect on Undead. So, depending on the lich's health they could destroy themselves, destroy the bag, or probably use some spell to just up and out of there.

Example: Lich could use its teeth to tear the bag, Dimension door only uses verbal components, cast that a couple times in a random direction. Hell, if escape is the only priority, upcast it a few times as well. Hooray, you're free. Convince some passerby that you're a magical artifact and recover your body. Edit: people have said that tearing the bag throws you into an astral trip. Admittedly the campaigns I play usually are not concerned with this and just dump it out onto the ground

As an aside, you said it's just a skull? I see no reason to believe that a fully dismembered lich would not be considered "destroyed". Even if spare the dying were to work on undead, breaking a body apart would still destroy it. If you cast spare the dying before breaking it apart, the breaking apart post-cast would destroy it, casting it after would mean that the lich has already been destroyed, and there is nothing left to spare. Destroying a lich, in my opinion, does not involve grinding the bones into dust. As soon as it hits 0 hit points, the lich vanishes.

Regardless, not wanting to retcon his destruction, I would probably give them a day or two to have a follow up, but if they believe that just holding a lich head in a bag would suffice for the rest of the campaign then he probably tries to get away. Or regenerates his body in the bag - that would be pretty traumatizing as well. Or turn the skull into a DemiLich, if you have bigger and better plans for the future, that way it poses an issue but isn't readily one unless something else goes wrong with the bag.

[Kurt Kurageous]

I like what the party has done. But keeping a 'pet' lich is risky business. Sorta like owning a pet tiger, right, Sigfried?

I would say that the lich, being super IQ, focused on nothing else, and given sufficient time will soon (re)learn to perform the somatic components of spells.

Perhaps this will be done using their feet. Or connecting their feet to their wrists. Or rearranging their bones to replace the missing digits. Or rearranging their bones to take on some other bizarre scary creepy horrifying form. It's a lich, it's beyond mortal pain and (mostly) the rules of having a body.

To paraphrase Dr. Malcom said in Jurassic Park, (Un)"Life finds a way."

[Unoriginal]

Also, if the Lich can't feed its phylactery for a long while, it'd just turn into a Demilich, who can escape the bag easily.

[1Pirate]

Have the Lich eventually figure out how to switch places with the jester so that when the party brings out the skull and releases the jester, the lich comes out instead and skedaddles.

HOWEVER, give them ample warning that their precautions won't hold it forever(someone in the party should have a decent Arcana and/or Religion skill or at least a high Intelligence or Wisdom score) AND give them a reasonable amount of time to find a more permanent solution. They've already had several encounters with it and finally dealt with it creatively, so it might be time for you to let this villain die.

[Brookshw]

Also, if the Lich can't feed its phylactery for a long while, it'd just turn into a Demilich, who can escape the bag easily.

Huh. I wonder why they changed that fluff.

[Unoriginal]

Huh. I wonder why they changed that fluff.

Define "changed".

[Brookshw]

Define "changed".

Liches never needed to feed souls to their phylacteries before, and Demiliches were more powerful/transcended versions of liches.

[Witty Username]

Liches never needed to feed souls to their phylacteries before, and Demiliches were more powerful/transcended versions of liches.

its a 5e thing, in the Monster Manual.
edit: sorry, read "why" as "what", no idea why, probably to reinforce the evil.

[Malifice]

I have a problem that I don’t know what to do with. Basically the party has captured a lich, removed her hands and tongue, cast spare the dying and placed her in a bag of holding to keep her from resurrecting. I had used this lich 2 times to kill off 3 party members before having her flee each time before the parry caught her. She’s inside there with the disembodied floating skull that has inmprisoned within it a court jester.

Is there a way for her to get out of this and escape again?

Start by reading the rules.

Spare the Dying doesnt work on Undead.

[Unoriginal]

Liches never needed to feed souls to their phylacteries before, and Demiliches were more powerful/transcended versions of liches.

Actually, the first version of the demilich was a weaker version of the lich. It was changed later.

The "demilich as more powerful/transcended version of the lich" still exists in 5e, too.



For the phylatery feeding, I supposed it was to keep the liches active (and actively malevolent). As much as the idea of a lich just retiring from the world and studying alone forever can be funny, "here's this harmless hermit, go steal their stuff" isn't the most entertaining when it's applied to a whole kind of monster. Especially when said monster is supposed to be evil, not neutral bored.

[spartan_ah]

stop thinking like a mortal...
he's a lich, they have like what? 500-700 years to live? they will die eventually, or make a mistake. revenge is a dish best serve cold.
relax and enjoy the astral plane while they die slowly of old age. maybe a potential ally will pass there.
why can't he regenerate? ahve they destroyed the phylactery?
he must have minions, where r they?

[ProsecutorGodot]

There are a few problems with this plan, I'll list the ones already pointed out for the sake of convenience, as well as my own take on them:
-Spare the Dying does not work on undead
-Being in a Bag of Holding does not, in any way, prevent the Lich from taking actions while inside. Liches do not need food, water, air or sleep.
-Even if Spare the Dying (I don't understand what this is meant to accomplish anyway) is allowed to be used, the Lich would regain 1 hit point and consciousness after 1d4 hours inside of the bag.
-Bag of Holding are not impenetrable and can be torn from the inside.
-Losing an arm didn't stop Manshoon, a mortal Wizard, from creating a new one. Your Lich could do so easily.
-You don't need a tongue to cast Verbal component spells

Verbal (V)
Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of silence, such as one created by the silence spell, can't cast a spell with a verbal component.
It would be more difficult, but unless they also gagged the lich or severed their vocal cords this isn't much of an obstacle.
-There's something other than the Lich in the bag. Anything can be a tool.

The solution is actually fairly simple. The lich uses the skull housing the court jester to destroy their body. They have as much time as it takes to figure out how to use a skull/bone shards to destroy themselves to a degree that would cause them to regenerate. To be honest, all it would really take is propping that skull up between the knees and heabutting it until both shatter.

Heck, they don't even need the skull, just have them break their own neck using their arm nubs. If someone was willing to take magic down this route to become a lich I doubt very much they'd be squeamish about killing (destroying) themselves.

[Brookshw]

Actually, the first version of the demilich was a weaker version of the lich. It was changed later. How so? The original Demilich had immunities that surpassed a regular lich and ran (or floated) around sucking souls without a save. Granted the actual lich's soul was cruising the planes rather than sitting in the the tomb, and it didn't have the original caster abilities for some unknown reason (probably because it was basically a fancy trap).



The "demilich as more powerful/transcended version of the lich" still exists in 5e, too. Where? Looks like you become a demilich now by not feeding the meter.


For the phylatery feeding, I supposed it was to keep the liches active (and actively malevolent). As much as the idea of a lich just retiring from the world and studying alone forever can be funny, "here's this harmless hermit, go steal their stuff" isn't the most entertaining when it's applied to a whole kind of monster. Especially when said monster is supposed to be evil, not neutral bored. Fair point though I'd wonder why a lich would need to stay actively malevolent rather than just occasionally gating in some farmer joe to feed on, rather than draw unnecessary attention to itself.

[Unoriginal]

How so? The original Demilich had immunities that surpassed a regular lich and ran (or floated) around sucking souls without a save. Granted the actual lich's soul was cruising the planes rather than sitting in the the tomb, and it didn't have the original caster abilities for some unknown reason (probably because it was basically a fancy trap).

Well like you said, it didn't have spellcasting, it was just sucking souls on auto-mode while the lich's spirit was busy elsewhere.



Where? Looks like you become a demilich now by not feeding the meter.


There's an alternate version in the MM's entry. The lore being that those Liches have figured out the trick to stay sane and keep their spellcasting even as a Demilich.



Fair point though I'd wonder why a lich would need to stay actively malevolent rather than just occasionally gating in some farmer joe to feed on, rather than draw unnecessary attention to itself.

Teleporting a being to you to suck their soul is being actively malevolent.

[Sparky McDibben]

This isn't a problem, it's an opportunity! There are several different ways to go with this.

One - lich advisor. You have a 20 INT master of the arcane literally in your back pocket. Now you have a way to feed the party information you want them to have! And of course, some of it is bald-faced lies.

Two - the lich lies. It uses the dream spell to communicate with the PCs to tell them it can cast wish, and will do so if they release it. Only if anyone goes through the lich's spellbook, wish ain't there. Instead, you use the PCs competing needs to divide the party before the lich casts another dream spell and calls in a favor from a githyanki war party of their acquaintance. The favor? "Kill me..."

[Brookshw]

Well like you said, it didn't have spellcasting, it was just sucking souls on auto-mode while the lich's spirit was busy elsewhere. True, though with an "I Win" button like a no save kill, and being immune to almost everything (and being able to teleport out of there now that I think of it), I'm not sure that it's accurate to say the Demilich was originally somehow lesser than a lich. Tomat-o, To-mato, maybe.



There's an alternate version in the MM's entry. The lore being that those Liches have figured out the trick to stay sane and keep their spellcasting even as a Demilich. I'm apparently blind because I cannot find it for the life of me.


Teleporting a being to you to suck their soul is being actively malevolent. No argument here, I'm just thinking of how to keep that malevolence from actually calling any attention to the lich, meaning they get to sit in their basement watching cartoons and eating cereal. Sure, high level magic could be brought to bear in figuring out the source of a singular disappearance, though it seems unlikely that would regularly come to pass over a missing farmer (or drunk, or hobo, etc)......other than when those meddling kids get involved.

[darknite]

...

The solution is actually fairly simple. The lich uses the skull housing the court jester to destroy their body. They have as much time as it takes to figure out how to use a skull/bone shards to destroy themselves to a degree that would cause them to regenerate. To be honest, all it would really take is propping that skull up between the knees and heabutting it until both shatter.

Heck, they don't even need the skull, just have them break their own neck using their arm nubs. If someone was willing to take magic down this route to become a lich I doubt very much they'd be squeamish about killing (destroying) themselves.

Liches are immune to non-magical weapons. Does the court jester have a magical skull?

[JackPhoenix]

Also, if the Lich can't feed its phylactery for a long while, it'd just turn into a Demilich, who can escape the bag easily.

It may not actually be that long. While the exact requirements aren't listed anywhere, the MM entry says the soul is consumed after 24 hours inside the phylactery.


Liches are immune to non-magical weapons. Does the court jester have a magical skull?

Disembodied, floating skull with a someone imprisoned inside sounds pretty magical to me...

[Willie the Duck]

Fair point though I'd wonder why a lich would need to stay actively malevolent rather than just occasionally gating in some farmer joe to feed on, rather than draw unnecessary attention to itself.

No argument here, I'm just thinking of how to keep that malevolence from actually calling any attention to the lich, meaning they get to sit in their basement watching cartoons and eating cereal. Sure, high level magic could be brought to bear in figuring out the source of a singular disappearance, though it seems unlikely that would regularly come to pass over a missing farmer (or drunk, or hobo, etc)......other than when those meddling kids get involved.

I don't think, 'find a way to make sure the lich is noticed all the time' was the goal. Simply that the lich has to actually be committing evil to stay in their (at least current) undead state. 5e seems to want undead to be mostly dedicated antagonists again, and 'harmless hermit undead doing no one any harm' kinda breaks that.


It may not actually be that long. While the exact requirements aren't listed anywhere, the MM entry says the soul is consumed after 24 hours inside the phylactery.

Errr… ick. I mean, I'm not saying you're wrong, I just really don't like that interpretation. We already have vampires, making liches 'approximately daily feeding undead monstrosities' just means you have two antagonist types with all the same limitations (such as can you have them in a city without people noticing, and the like).

[JackPhoenix]

Errr… ick. I mean, I'm not saying you're wrong, I just really don't like that interpretation. We already have vampires, making liches 'approximately daily feeding undead monstrosities' just means you have two antagonist types with all the same limitations (such as can you have them in a city without people noticing, and the like).

Well, the degeneration into demilich isn't instant... perhaps that's why most liches looks more-or-less like skeletons: if they fed the phylactery every day, they would keep their living appearance, but if they don't, they slowly decay. Most wouldn't... besides drawing attention, getting so much victims is annoying, impractical, and it would cost them their single level 9 slot every day. Skeleton may present decent compromise between the need to feed constantly and losing functionality.

Vampires don't have the luxury of choice: unlike liches, they *have* to feed: vampire's undead nature only removes the need for air, they still need sleep and food, unlike almost every other undead, which suggest not sucking blood could kill them for good.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Liches are immune to non-magical weapons. Does the court jester have a magical skull?

I saw "Resistance" instead of "Immunity" there so thanks for pointing that out. However, as JackPhoenix pointed out, It's safe to assume that a flying skull housing the soul (or entire body) of someone falls squarely into the realm of "magical".

New plan. I don't see any reason that not having hands prevents them from using Paralyzing Touch. They're only resistant to Cold damage so eventually it would do enough damage to kill.

[Kurt Kurageous]

It's safe to assume that a flying skull housing the soul (or entire body) of someone falls squarely into the realm of "magical".

Not so safe.

Dragon's claws aren't magical in RAW. A wererat can just flip the bird to a dragon's claws and breath.

Your mileage (and DM) may vary. I'd say the skull is not meant to be a magical weapon, putting it in the ridiculous category of magical improvised weapon.

[JackPhoenix]

I saw "Resistance" instead of "Immunity" there so thanks for pointing that out. However, as JackPhoenix pointed out, It's safe to assume that a flying skull housing the soul (or entire body) of someone falls squarely into the realm of "magical".

That was mostly a joke. Just because something is magical doesn't mean it counts as magic weapon. Though if the skull is an object and not a creature, it could arguable be used as improvised magic weapon.


New plan. I don't see any reason that not having hands prevents them from using Paralyzing Touch. They're only resistant to Cold damage so eventually it would do enough damage to kill.

Soooo... the lich will commit suicide by touching himself while wrapped inside a bag?

Well, I won't judge...

Edit: heh. Shadow monks....


Not so safe.

Dragon's claws aren't magical in RAW. A wererat can just flip the bird to a dragon's claws and breath.

Your mileage (and DM) may vary. I'd say the skull is not meant to be a magical weapon, putting it in the ridiculous category of magical improvised weapon.

Claws, yes, breath, no. Wererat may be immune to non-magical B/P/S damage, but that immunity isn't worth anything against acid/cold/fire/lightning/poison breath. Or even a lit torch, for that matter, if you need to deal with one without anything better at your disposal.

[Lyracian]

It may not actually be that long. While the exact requirements aren't listed anywhere, the MM entry says the soul is consumed after 24 hours inside the phylactery.
It also says the Lich only has to feed the phylacytory 'periodically'. While that is not a defined time span I would expect it to be months not days and certainly not a single day. They are going to have problems focusing on there arcane plans if they have to go and get a mortal every day.

I do have an amusing idea of a Lich buying slaves at market or taking the condemned prisoners from the city jail for his sacrifices. A Lawful-Evil I can consume these soles and get on with writing my book and you goody-too-shoes Players cannot stop me without breaking the law.

[JackPhoenix]

It also says the Lich only has to feed the phylacytory 'periodically'. While that is not a defined time span I would expect it to be months not days and certainly not a single day. They are going to have problems focusing on there arcane plans if they have to go and get a mortal every day.

I do have an amusing idea of a Lich buying slaves at market or taking the condemned prisoners from the city jail for his sacrifices. A Lawful-Evil I can consume these soles and get on with writing my book and you goody-too-shoes Players cannot stop me without breaking the law.

"24 hours" is a period. Something done every 24 hours would be done periodically.

Also, note that nothing says the consumed creature must be human(oid).

[Garfunion]

Alternatively if this hasn’t been said before. Let this be the start of a redemption arc for the Lich. Have the Lich start helping the players.
Let’s say the Lich can no longer cast magic so, the only use for it is knowledge. Have it start sharing its knowledge.

[Lyracian]

"24 hours" is a period. Something done every 24 hours would be done periodically.
Also, note that nothing says the consumed creature must be human(oid).
I would use the word daily for that. We have different views on what the word periodically means and no amount of debating English will change that.

If a Lich had to feed its Phylactory every day it would be spending more time on maintenance than if it had just stayed alive and used a demi-plane full of Clones to live for ever. At least with it being a game my Lich can it 1 sole a year and yours can feed it one sole a day and we are both in line with what is in the rulebook.

[JackPhoenix]

I would use the word daily for that. We have different views on what the word periodically means and no amount of debating English will change that.

If a Lich had to feed its Phylactory every day it would be spending more time on maintenance than if it had just stayed alive and used a demi-plane full of Clones to live for ever. At least with it being a game my Lich can it 1 sole a year and yours can feed it one sole a day and we are both in line with what is in the rulebook.

Well, lich in my game would degenerate into a demilich quickly if he tried to eat soles, but then, it wouldn't be a big loss in the terms of intellect :smallbiggrin:

[Willie the Duck]

Well, lich in my game would degenerate into a demilich quickly if he tried to eat soles, but then, it wouldn't be a big loss in the terms of intellect :smallbiggrin:

If they always bought out an entire restaurant and ate a normal meal, would it count, since they were the sole eater? :smallbiggrin:

Alternatively, lichdom (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u65lvwfTPtM) puts Charlie Chaplin in a whole new light.

[allthingslich]

Is there a reason this lich needs to escape and reenter the story?

To be honest, it sounds like the players were exceptionally clever, and you may want to question whether it's necessary to undermine that.


I like this. I've been a culprit of it myself, with a constantly escaping/re-appearing enemy. It was a major nuisance and every time he showed up, a PC died. Once the players devise a clever plan and overcome this, don't take that moment away from them.

[Unoriginal]

I like this. I've been a culprit of it myself, with a constantly escaping/re-appearing enemy. It was a major nuisance and every time he showed up, a PC died. Once the players devise a clever plan and overcome this, don't take that moment away from them.

As a DM, I wouldn't take that moment from them if the plan was actually clever.

"Shoving the lich in the bag of holding" isn't incapacitating to the lich. Hell, nothing says it can't get out of it by the bag's opening while the PCs aren't looking.

[Tetrasodium]

In eberron there are two types of undead (relevant for reason's that will be clear later). The first kind is the traditional mabaran undead that are powered by negative energy from mabar. The second are deathless that are powered by positive life energy willingly given as a complex & irrelevant form of ancestor worshipish type thing. The Dragons view both as an abomination because it is a blight that drains life from the world itself with darksun defiler type implied wording here & there.

That last part is the important part... it sure would be a heck of a shame if said light started to corrupt the enchantment on the bag of holding & shifted it from being linked to the astral to being linked to Mabar (http://keith-baker.com/the-endless-night/). It would specially be a shame since doing so would A: be like hooking the lich up the a nuclear power plant for liches and B: either allow something from mabar to climb out or cause the bag to start aging out of existence until either the lich steps out fully healed & ready to smash while possibly even creating a manifest zone (https://eberron.fandom.com/wiki/Manifest_zone) to mabar in the process.

If that happened in eberron, it would probbly be bad, but manifest zones are natural and can be dealt with.. if it happened in other settings it would be horiffic because the whole plot of PotA is largely about stopping cultists from effectively creating some manifest zones.

[Willie the Duck]

As a DM, I wouldn't take that moment from them if the plan was actually clever.

"Shoving the lich in the bag of holding" isn't incapacitating to the lich. Hell, nothing says it can't get out of it by the bag's opening while the PCs aren't looking.

I think one of the first things that I would do in this situation is make sure that my players and I had the same conception of what a bag of holding is, and how it works. My suspicion is that the players in the OP's scenario think that the bag is some kind of extradimensional 'other-where' that is effectively a prison, whereas the item according to the DMG description makes more clear that you are actually still in the bag and can come out the opening (or cut the bag open from the inside, etc.).

I've certainly had players say they were stashing a bunch of looted weapon in the bag without mentioning scabbards or the like. I'm not a jerk, so I clarified. However, I'm pretty sure 1-2 of them hadn't ever thought that the BoH was just a bag that happens to be very big on the inside.

[druid91]

Contingency.

[Anderlith]

Have them chew the side of the bag, gnashing their teeth to create a hole, spilling the contents

[Unoriginal]

I think one of the first things that I would do in this situation is make sure that my players and I had the same conception of what a bag of holding is, and how it works. My suspicion is that the players in the OP's scenario think that the bag is some kind of extradimensional 'other-where' that is effectively a prison, whereas the item according to the DMG description makes more clear that you are actually still in the bag and can come out the opening (or cut the bag open from the inside, etc.).

I've certainly had players say they were stashing a bunch of looted weapon in the bag without mentioning scabbards or the like. I'm not a jerk, so I clarified. However, I'm pretty sure 1-2 of them hadn't ever thought that the BoH was just a bag that happens to be very big on the inside.

Sure, explaining the issue when the PCs would know about it is good form.

The gotcha game isn't fun for anyone on the receiving end.