Please sell me on why I'd want to ever play a bard, when they seem so weak...

[samcifer]

So bards are rare in my group (only one player has played one once so far in our group). Admittedly I tend to focus on combat effectiveness and it feels as if so much of the bard abilities and spell list seem geared more towards rp-ing than combat, making them very weak when it comes to fighting.

How can a bard be effective in combat? (I have some pretty good ideas on how to play them in rp situations)

[OutOfThyme]

Bards aren't offensive casters. They're very focused on support, and they excel at that. Bardic Inspiration means you can give your allies free bonuses to their checks for up to a minute, which can let attacks land when they otherwise wouldn't. Lore Bards get Cutting Words, which is the opposite - you can affect enemy rolls as a reaction. Beyond this, their spell lists are pretty much entirely focused on support. They've got few truly offensive spells (Thunderwave, Shatter, Heat Metal), but they have support spells like Dissonant Whispers, Blindness/Deafness, Hypnotic Pattern and Phantasmal Force that can lock down enemies.

You can build a Bard that doesn't deal a single point of damage in a fight, but your control spells can still change the entire layout of a fight.

[Aett_Thorn]

By being a team player, and realizing that you can make other characters much more effective at what they do.

Crowd control effects can be pretty powerful in this edition, allowing for more crits from melee and ranged characters, advantage on attacks, or just being able to tie up adversaries instead of needing to kill them all.

Or, go Swords and be a bit more selfish, using spells as necessary, but mainly doing duel-wield attacks in combat.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

In combat, you're a full caster with a list full of save-or-sucks. You're the best user of telekinesis and counterspell. You can get find greater steed and fireball on your spell list. Stuff like fear, phantasmal force, enemies abound and suggestion can auto-win certain combats. You can be a healer, if the party needs one. Because you're Cha-dependent, you can multiclass into paladin, sorcerer or warlock, dependent on what kind of character you want to be.

I honestly think bards are, along with warlocks, the best-designed and most interesting class in 5E.

[LaSouris]

Bards don't do well in small parties in my opinion, but if you put them as the 5th man in a party, suddenly you've got a dangerous party. Between all the great buff and debuff spells, bardic inspiration, and magical secrets, you have a class that can fill any gaps nicely and make everyone else better.

It does gear more towards RP than combat, but it's no slouch when it comes to a fight. Jack of all trades applies to counterspell and dispel magic too, which is a bonus unto itself.

[Griswold]

Bards can be quite effective in combat, especially if you don't just focus on doing damage. I'm just going to restrict my discussion to spells, since all bards get them. If you want to play Lore bard and pick up Fireball or Counterspell, that'll increase your in-combat effectiveness substantially. You can also go College of Swords or Valor if you want to do more reliable direct damage.


Healing Word is a great healing spell for picking up your allies at 0 hp, and still lets you fire a bow or attack with a rapier.
Dissonant Whispers is a fantastic damage dealing spell at low levels, since it provokes attacks of opportunity. You can also chuck people off of cliffs if you're lucky.
Suggestion is a 2nd level save or lose spell, keyed off of a Wisdom save.
Heat Metal is continuous decent-scaling damage on a bonus action, which also acts as a significant debuff to an enemy wearing metal armor.
Phantasmal Force and all the other illusion spells are, depending on your DM, save or lose spells keyed off of Intelligence.
Silence completely shuts down enemy spellcasters.
Shatter does area damage if you really have to.
Hypnotic Pattern is an area save or lose spell. If you have any of the bardic magic instruments, all opponents are at disadvantage to save against it, too.

[Unoriginal]

The Bard in my campaign saved the Cleric from being killed by the boss's gun with a Vicious Mockery.

[MaxWilson]

So bards are rare in my group (only one player has played one once so far in our group). Admittedly I tend to focus on combat effectiveness and it feels as if so much of the bard abilities and spell list seem geared more towards rp-ing than combat, making them very weak when it comes to fighting.

How can a bard be effective in combat? (I have some pretty good ideas on how to play them in rp situations)

Bards are terrific at support and crowd control (Fear, Hypnotic Pattern), but their main downside is that they don't have a lot of built-in ways to do direct damage without spending spell points. You can deal with this by playing a Valor Bard or especially Sword Bard, but you can also deal with this and also boost your AC tremendously with a couple of levels of Hexblade. I'd recommend something like:

Level 1: Hexblade 1 (for Wis/Cha save proficiencies, medium armor + shields, Shield spell, Hex)
Level 2-10: Bard 1-9 (for Hypnotic Pattern/Fear/Polymorph/Raise Dead/Animate Objects/etc.)
Level 11: Hexblade 2 (Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Blast)

At mid-levels, you don't have +CHA or Repelling on your Eldritch Blast, but it's still valuable to have another source of magical damage in the party, and if your concentration isn't busy you can throw Hex on there too from a warlock spell slot to increase damage and/or help out a party grappler at the same time. If you go Valor or Sword bard you can even dual-wield short swords for 6d6+4ish (three attacks at 2d6 each from Hex, +Dex bonus on the first two) though it requires an initial setup round for Hex and personally I would just stick with sword + shield.

Edit: oh yeah, I forgot about Hexblade's Curse. That would add another +9 points of damage to the dual-wielding scenario, at the cost of yet another round of setup. Yet another reason I would stick with sword-and-shield instead of dual-wielding.

Edit2: BTW, if you want to be a grappler, I'd go with Valor Bard for Extra Attack and eventual Battle Magic, but I don't get the sense you'd enjoy grappling/proning enemies, I think you'd rather attack, so I'd recommend Sword bard for you + Dueling style. Lore Bard is also excellent if you like Cutting Words and more spells, which I do.

[Man_Over_Game]

So bards are rare in my group (only one player has played one once so far in our group). Admittedly I tend to focus on combat effectiveness dealing damage and it feels as if so much of the bard abilities and spell list seem geared more towards rp-ing than combat, making them very weak when it comes to fighting dealing damage.

I've edited the relevant bits.

The Bard has Healing Word, Sleep, Heat Metal, Hypnotic Pattern, Greater Invisibility. You'll note that each of those spells are all best in class (Healing Word is probably the best healing spell, Sleep is the best low level control spell, Hypnotic Pattern is the best mid level control spell, etc).

Unlike other classes, their resource regenerates on a Short Rest, and can be highly effective when used appropriately (Cutting Words reduces enemy attacks by -3.5 or more). Most other primary features would get in the way of casting spells, but not the Bard's.

Additionally, Bards happen to have the same attribute that works with Inspiring Leader, as well as having Song of Rest. What this means is that the Bard can heal an entire team by having them only take flesh wounds, and then effectively heal those flesh wounds super-efficiently. Where a Cleric might burn through several spell slots, a Bard only needs to use a Bonus Action to spot-heal with Healing Word as-needed as his friends reach 0 HP.

Summary: the Bard is best at damage control. They nullify the most amount of damage, so that the party lasts longer. What little damage the party sustains, the Bard either mitigates via Inspiring Leader, or patches them up after a Song of Rest. This allows the party to push on, since few resources are being used for HP and sustainability.

[Kurt Kurageous]

How can a bard be effective in combat?

First off, you are full caster with as many freakin' spells as a wizard at lower levels. You are a support class, if that helps your conceptualizing. You are not a DPR or really a tank, you are the jack of all, master of none. Except combat controller. You're pretty darn good at that.

The following will NOT be the best ideas on the thread, or even optimal ones. But they are what I've done to be a factor in many combats when playing a bard.

I prefer valor bard for the shield and combat inspiration. Combat inspiration is versatile. As a bonus action you can select an ally to buff for their to hit (normal), their damage, or even their own AC.

Vicious Mockery is a one target one time bane with low scalable damage. How many other cantrips impose a disadvantage?
Mage hand can cause all kinds of problems with oil flasks, caltrops, ball bearing bags
Dissonant Whispers damages (avg 10) and on the failed save makes target run away, creating an AOO for an ally.
Silence at 2nd is a wonderful caster no save shutdown situationally. So's Blindness/Deafness, but it has a save. A single one timer. And Calm Emotions is a potential fight-ender, great if your side is LOSING...saving everyone's butt and making you the MVP.
Phantasmal Force vs low IQ types can do 10d6 AT SECOND LEVEL! Put 'em in a never ending 10x10xinfinity sulfur-fumed mineshaft to hell with jagged rocks on the walls they bounce off. Lasts one minute, 1d6 a round. Speak with your DM about it to concur this is good.
Honorable mention to shatter.
Major Image at 3rd level is only limited by your imagination.
Hypnotic pattern takes out 30x30 worth of foes for a minute. They are incapped, some DMs allow that as advantage to hit and auto-crit within 5'. Incap reads as paralyzed. That's a one shot thing, but what a shot!

I don't write guides. See the bard guides for probably better advice.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

So bards are rare in my group (only one player has played one once so far in our group). Admittedly I tend to focus on combat effectiveness and it feels as if so much of the bard abilities and spell list seem geared more towards rp-ing than combat, making them very weak when it comes to fighting.

How can a bard be effective in combat? (I have some pretty good ideas on how to play them in rp situations)

Bards require a little more awareness than some fighters, rogues or wizards.

As a Lore Bard you CAN steal any two spells at Level 6, Fireball or whatever just like a Wizard if Thunderwave and Shatter don't do it for you. You also get Healing Word and Vicious Mockery as well. Not to mention Cutting Words.

Dissonant Whispers kicks butt. Used properly it causes opportunity attacks!

Wanna save everyone from the Lich? Lore Bards can steal Counterspell and Counterspell with the best thanks to that Jack of All Trades business.

[Waazraath]

So bards are rare in my group (only one player has played one once so far in our group). Admittedly I tend to focus on combat effectiveness and it feels as if so much of the bard abilities and spell list seem geared more towards rp-ing than combat, making them very weak when it comes to fighting.

How can a bard be effective in combat? (I have some pretty good ideas on how to play them in rp situations)

they are not very weak (plenty of folks before me gave examples of what they can do), but they definitely are lacking in the damage department. If combat is the main focus of your campaign, I don't wanna sell you the bard, to be honest. Even if you would like a support / heal / controll character and don't mind damage too much, I'd rather recommend a cleric (with heavy armor and shield) or Druid (shepard is great for that). Let's be fair: a Bard is really, really good with skills and had very nice utility spells, the trade off is combat abilities. If you don't use the former in your game, there's no compensation for the relative weak latter, and it simply isn't a great class for your game.

[xroads]

How many classes can say they killed a dragon by insulting it? Only the bard. :smallbiggrin:

Vicious Mockery alone is enough of a reason for me to play the class. Throwing disadvantage on an enemy and whittling him down is sweet.

But like the other posters have said, bard's make a great control/support caster class. And they're not as squishy some of the other caster classes (wizards in particular). So they can handle themselves in a pinch (some schools better than others).

I'm currently just looking for an excuse to play a glamour bard. Suggestion as a bonus action for an entire turn? Heck yeah.

[MaxWilson]

How many classes can say they killed a dragon by insulting it? Only the bard. :smallbiggrin:

I have never seen a bard do this and it's hard to imagine that one ever could. Vicious Mockery has pathetic damage and targets a strong save. Even ignoring legendary resistance, a 20th level bard with Cha 20 would have to cast Vicious Mockery 25 times in a row to deal the 178 HP of damage needed to kill even a Young Red Dragon, and it would take 48 castings to kill an Adult Red Dragon. Long before that happens, the dragon will have killed and eaten the bard.

You could kill an orc by insulting it though. :-P

P.S. The disadvantage from Vicious Mockery is decent at low levels and nigh-irrelevant at higher levels, because it only works on one attack. If you Vicious Mockery a CR 5 troll at 5th level, even if he fails the save you're only imposing disadvantage on the d6+4 (7) bite attack, but the 2d6+8 (15) of claw attacks are unhindered.

[Rukelnikov]

Early on Bards can be a little weak in combat, when most enemies have around 10 hp, dealing 1d10 damage is likely more useful than 1d4 and disadvantage on an attack, vs "bosses" though that can be a life saver. However, as lvls start pilling up, I say bard is amongst the most powerful classes, capable of pulling spell combos no other class can, and if what you want is pure damage on combat, all it takes is proper use of your magical secrets.

Find Greater Steed + Armor of Agathys + Tenser's Transformation lends to one of the most powerful pets (if not THE most powerful pet), on a Whisperbard with XBE and SS the DPR rivals or surpasses Battlemaster (a dip for archery style would be preferable though, than single classing)

[Contrast]

I've been playing a glamour bard.

Their bardic inspiration really is a game changer. Healing and movement in one package to many members of the party can completely change how combats work. Particularly when you can also use it to move allies around the AoE of spells.

Plus I'm a full caster who is also the parties go to person for skills and the party face.

And honestly my damage isn't even that bad of late between Dissonant Whispers and the Wand of Magic Missiles we found.

[jaappleton]

Bards.... Weak?

LOLNOPE

Bards are amongst the most OP classes there are. And they don’t even take much to exploit.

The first thing to know is that Bards can do anything.

The second thing you have to acknowledge is that Bards shine best when shutting down foes, and enhancing allies. You need to EMBRACE that.

Bards don’t crush in the damage department. If built right, they can absolutely hold their own, for sure. But to reach maximum potential, you should embrace what the Bard was designed to do and that’s to make everyone better.

What’s better: Hitting for 11 damage, or casting Faerie Fire and giving all your allies Advantage to hit?

What’s better: Your set spell list or the ability to steal whatever spells you want?

You’ve got action economy out the butthole. Use your Bardic Inspiration as a bonus action, which can absolutely turn the tide of battle (Help the ally make a saving throw, ensure that Sharpshooter attack hits, etc), or cast a bonus action spell like Healing Word to bring the Rogue back up?

Make the Paladin and Ranger cry because you can use Magical Secrets to steal their exclusive 5th level spells. Circle of Power is a fine thing to have.

And if you DO want to rock in the damage department.... Magical Secrets help there, too. Crossbow Expert Valor Bard with Holy Weapon? 1d6+Dex+2d8*3 is damn good for a full caster to be able to pump out every single round.

[sophontteks]

So bards are rare in my group (only one player has played one once so far in our group). Admittedly I tend to focus on combat effectiveness and it feels as if so much of the bard abilities and spell list seem geared more towards rp-ing than combat, making them very weak when it comes to fighting.

How can a bard be effective in combat? (I have some pretty good ideas on how to play them in rp situations)
Your group's focus on individual combat effectiveness has probably handicapped the party more then it has helped them.

Not every party member needs to deal damage at all. Damage is actually very weak. An opponent is 100% combat effective so long as they are alive, and enemies tend to have very large hp pools.

Healing too, is very weak. Worse then damage. It really functions quite similiar as dealing damage, except it runs on smaller hit dice.

So, if you want to be combat effective you should be focusing on things that don't deal damage or heal. This the bard has in spades. The bard is a force multiplier. He makes everyone around him better in combat, and makes his enemies worse. Honestly the list of ways bards can do this is so large its not even worth writing. I can just provide an example to help you see.

Glamour bards seem pretty RP-heavy at a glance. But they have 5 charges on a short rest ability that gives every party member temporary hp and lets them reposition without provoking attacks of opportunity on a bonus action. The third level spell hypnotic pattern doesn't deal any damage, but it does take multiple enemies out of the fight entirely. The bard can do both of these in one turn too. So the party is overwhelmed by a bunch of monsters. The bard not only heals every party member, but also moves the party out of the way of his spell, which takes most of the enemies out of the fight entirely. And he can do this multiple times in a single combat if he wanted to. The healing itself is incredible, but the value of taking multiple creatures out of the fight is ridiculous.

The glamour bard could honestly do nothing the rest of the combat encounter and still be the MVP.

[Xihirli]

Bards can fill in as skill monkeys, utility casters, battlefield controllers, and healers all at once. I'm a Life Cleric 1 / Lore Bard 13 and I didn't kill anyone until I hit level 13. But I am also the reason not a single PC has died yet.

[Unoriginal]

I have never seen a bard do this and it's hard to imagine that one ever could. Vicious Mockery has pathetic damage and targets a strong save. Even ignoring legendary resistance, a 20th level bard with Cha 20 would have to cast Vicious Mockery 25 times in a row to deal the 178 HP of damage needed to kill even a Young Red Dragon, and it would take 48 castings to kill an Adult Red Dragon. Long before that happens, the dragon will have killed and eaten the bard.

You could kill an orc by insulting it though. :-P

P.S. The disadvantage from Vicious Mockery is decent at low levels and nigh-irrelevant at higher levels, because it only works on one attack. If you Vicious Mockery a CR 5 troll at 5th level, even if he fails the save you're only imposing disadvantage on the d6+4 (7) bite attack, but the 2d6+8 (15) of claw attacks are unhindered.

You don't need to deal all of the damages on an enemy to kill them. Only the final blow is the "killing blow".

[Kane0]

Bards aren't the flashy heavy lifters, they make everyone else better at whatever it is they do. They fully subscribe to the Treantmonk school of thought except as a Cha based class rather than Int.

Bards are consummate force-multipliers. Wizards, Clerics and others can also do this but it's what the Bard was designed around doing. You know how Guidance and Bless are really good? Bardic inspiration is like that.

Bards are also decent at pretty much everything on their own so they aren't dead weight when caught out.

[dragoeniex]

Debuffs and controls, my good fellow! Who needs to cleave a foe in half when you can ruin the fight for the opposing side? Bane, Hypnotic Pattern, Blindness/Deafness, Silence, creative illusions if your DM is on-board, etc.

Mid-level, things really kick into gear. Synaptic Static is a fun way to deal a smattering of damage while sticking non-concentration debuff riders on a big clump of foes. Then you can chase it up with Blindness Deafness. That's also non-concentration, so maybe throw out a bigger con spell like Confusion while you're at it.

Congratulations: in three rounds, you've blinded, befuddled, and nerfed over half the opposing team. It came with a light kiss of damage, and you've been using your bonus action to make your allies even better at slicing or surviving the leftovers.

High level stuff like Forcecage can completely lock certain encounters down.

Dispel Magic is great for ruining an enemy caster's day after they debilitate your comrade or set up some big trap. Counterspell is a good choice whether you pick it up at lv 6 (Lore) or 10 (any subclass). Grab Healing Word at some point too and help stop a death.

You become the best at saying "no" to most any toy the enemies can try to pull out. And you don't worry about damage when you're busy guiding the flow of the whole battle.

[Atalas]

I have never seen a bard do this and it's hard to imagine that one ever could. Vicious Mockery has pathetic damage and targets a strong save. Even ignoring legendary resistance, a 20th level bard with Cha 20 would have to cast Vicious Mockery 25 times in a row to deal the 178 HP of damage needed to kill even a Young Red Dragon, and it would take 48 castings to kill an Adult Red Dragon. Long before that happens, the dragon will have killed and eaten the bard.

You could kill an orc by insulting it though. :-P

P.S. The disadvantage from Vicious Mockery is decent at low levels and nigh-irrelevant at higher levels, because it only works on one attack. If you Vicious Mockery a CR 5 troll at 5th level, even if he fails the save you're only imposing disadvantage on the d6+4 (7) bite attack, but the 2d6+8 (15) of claw attacks are unhindered.

while I didn't per se kill the dragon myself, my first character in 3.5 was a bard, and talking it into taking a nap in the middle of combat to let the rest of the party (including a rogue and a dread necromancer), and later making a dragon chasing us (flying chase) do an aileron roll (commonly called a barrel roll) to really upset the tummy of the epic level drow priestess riding its back to ruin the spell she was about to cast at us.

[samcifer]

What if I were to go the sharpshooter route? Would that allow for halfway decent damage? Is valor bard the only route to go without missing lots of spell slots and spell levels through multiclassing in order to get a second attack per turn?

[samcifer]

Summary: the Bard is best at damage control. They nullify the most amount of damage, so that the party lasts longer. What little damage the party sustains, the Bard either mitigates via Inspiring Leader, or patches them up after a Song of Rest. This allows the party to push on, since few resources are being used for HP and sustainability.

Do they only mitigate damage through healing or are there other ways to lower damage to party members for bards? Admittedly I tend to focus on blasters for spellcasting, hence my difficulty in seeing the value of bards.

[MaxWilson]

What if I were to go the sharpshooter route? Would that allow for halfway decent damage? Is valor bard the only route to go without missing lots of spell slots and spell levels through multiclassing in order to get a second attack per turn?

Sword Bard actually has slightly better damage than Valor Bard, without multiclassing.

I wouldn't go the Sharpshooter route though. With limited ASIs and only two attacks (three if you take Crossbow Expert, but see: limited ASIs) it just seems unlikely to be worth it. You're not trying to have the best damage in the party, you're just trying to have decent damage and fantastic crowd control/party support.

Why are you so set on playing a bard, anyway?


Do they only mitigate damage through healing or are there other ways to lower damage to party members for bards? Admittedly I tend to focus on blasters for spellcasting, hence my difficulty in seeing the value of bards.

Healing, Inspiring Leader, and especially crowd control, e.g. Hypnotic Pattern. It's not that wizards, warlocks, and sorcerers can't do crowd control too, but it's always great to have yet another crowd control caster in the party especially if you can pull your own weight in the damage department.

Just last night I saw a fight get turned completely around by a Hypnotic Pattern which turned a fight from a 4-on-4 (level 7 PCs vs. 4 Babaus who were absolutely destroying the party with repeated Fear spells) into a 3-on-1 (a cluster of 3 Babaus + 1 PC Barbarian all got taken out by the same Hypnotic Pattern, about 60' away from where the last Babau was fighting 2 other PCs, while the 4th PC was still running away). Without that spellcaster the fight could very well have killed one or all of the PCs.

Crowd control helps you out in tough fights where the party is outnumbered. When you outnumber the monsters, you don't need it, and you can focus on just doing damage or nullifying the enemy in other ways (grappling, throwing nets, trying to trick enemies into chasing you, etc.). It's nice to be good at both.

[samcifer]

they are not very weak (plenty of folks before me gave examples of what they can do), but they definitely are lacking in the damage department. If combat is the main focus of your campaign, I don't wanna sell you the bard, to be honest. Even if you would like a support / heal / controll character and don't mind damage too much, I'd rather recommend a cleric (with heavy armor and shield) or Druid (shepard is great for that). Let's be fair: a Bard is really, really good with skills and had very nice utility spells, the trade off is combat abilities. If you don't use the former in your game, there's no compensation for the relative weak latter, and it simply isn't a great class for your game.

In this campaign, there's lots of interactions with npcs and mystery-solving, but the dm has upped the challenge of combats by making stronger than normal encounters pretty much every time. Often, foes will get high bonuses to hit and do several dice-worth of damage on each attack. We've already lost our gunsmith artificer and nearly lost the hexblade the player replaced him with during that character's very first battle. We've had 2 other times were death saves have been required and my barbarian has nearly dropped 3 times in 5 sessions because of taking so much damage even with resistances. I want to do a bard, but I would need high survivability AND good damage to have a chance of not losing the character. I was hoping that the bard support spells and healing would help with this, but it sounds as if they're too fragile to work in this campaign. :(

[Man_Over_Game]

Do they only mitigate damage through healing or are there other ways to lower damage to party members for bards? Admittedly I tend to focus on blasters for spellcasting, hence my difficulty in seeing the value of bards.

Mitigating damage can come in the form of disabling an enemy.

For example, Heat Metal:

Has NO save if the creature can't drop the item (so target their armor)
Deals 2d8 damage
Causes Disadvantage to attack each turn
Requires a Bonus Action to continue to deal damage and Disadvantage.



Knocking out several Kobolds with a single Sleep spell cost the Bard an Action. In return, the kobolds that are awake might attempt to awaken their sleeping comrades, costing additional actions. For a level 1 spell and a single action, you have cost the enemy team about 3 or so actions. With the action economy value in 5e, we call that profit.

Hypnotic Pattern is just like Sleep, except not limited by hitpoints and uses a Wisdom Saving Throw, and it covers 2x as much of an area.

Damage mitigation can be more than just numbers. Imagine what would happen if you gave your Fighter 3+ more attacks per turn. That'd be freakin' awesome, right? Now imagine the reverse, removing that many attacks from the enemy team. That's what a Bard does.

[sophontteks]

In this campaign, there's lots of interactions with npcs and mystery-solving, but the dm has upped the challenge of combats by making stronger than normal encounters pretty much every time. Often, foes will get high bonuses to hit and do several dice-worth of damage on each attack. We've already lost our gunsmith artificer and nearly lost the hexblade the player replaced him with during that character's very first battle. We've had 2 other times were death saves have been required and my barbarian has nearly dropped 3 times in 5 sessions because of taking so much damage even with resistances. I want to do a bard, but I would need high survivability AND good damage to have a chance of not losing the character. I was hoping that the bard support spells and healing would help with this, but it sounds as if they're too fragile to work in this campaign. :(
No, you just want to play a valor bard. Full caster with a shield and medium armor. You can even take expertise in athletics and up your strength to control individual enemies better. Trip + push is an easy way to give the team advantage and the enemy disadvantage.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

while I didn't per se kill the dragon myself, my first character in 3.5 was a bard, and talking it into taking a nap in the middle of combat to let the rest of the party (including a rogue and a dread necromancer), and later making a dragon chasing us (flying chase) do an aileron roll (commonly called a barrel roll) to really upset the tummy of the epic level drow priestess riding its back to ruin the spell she was about to cast at us.

3.5 bards and 5e bards are different.
3.5e bards were the only class that could make a god fail his saves, they were the a very big and strong buffers with great PRCs.

5e bard are the I want to do everything class.
The one who control the fight, the who heal and the one who kills.
They scream versatile and buff the party up to 11.

They are different, both good at what they do.

[sophontteks]

I don't really agree with the "Do everything" idea.

Bards are skill monkeys and full casters that specialize in illusion and enhancement. Their damage is really atrocious. Archtypes that have tried to improve on that weakness didn't really succeed.

Valor- Tanky Bard.
Lore- Spell Bard.
Glamour- Control bard.

[Man_Over_Game]

I don't really agree with the "Do everything" idea.

Bards are skill monkeys and full casters that specialize in illusion and enhancement. Their damage is really atrocious. Archtypes that have tried to improve on that weakness didn't really succeed.

Valor- Tanky Bard.
Lore- Spell Bard.
Glamour- Control bard.

I dunno, I think Swords and Whispers Bards do fine on the damage aspect of things. As long as you remember to use the Bard's strengths, and consider the damage you get from the archetype as a "balance" change than a "specialization" change, they do just fine.

Sure, a Swords Bard isn't going to be outdamaging a Vengeance Paladin, but..you're a friggin' Bard. You can still do a million more things than the Paladin, who can only do one.

[sophontteks]

I dunno, I think Swords and Whispers Bards do fine on the damage aspect of things. As long as you remember to use the Bard's strengths, and consider the damage you get from the archetype as a "balance" change than a "specialization" change, they do just fine.

Sure, a Swords Bard isn't going to be outdamaging a Vengeance Paladin, but..you're a friggin' Bard. You can still do a million more things than the Paladin, who can only do one.
Eh, I mean. They do more damage, but they are also pretty commonly agreed upon to be the two worst archtypes. This is where I would rate success. The cost of doing damage is high enough to be considered a downgrade.

[Misterwhisper]

Around here groups argue over who gets to play the bard.

Almost all are lore though.

Let me rephrase, I am fairly sure every one has been lore.

They are just that good.

[Tallytrev813]

OP, I'll tell you, Bard is tied for my favorite class with Paladin. In combat, out of combat, you name it...bards are epic.

Now, Solo some bards run in to problems. But when they fight in a group, theyre amazing. And the bigger the group, the better.

I LOVE Lore bard, its my favorite class. You need to understand, Bard create soooo much. Cutting words turns hits into misses...all the time. And Bards get a LOT of Inspa dice once it shifts to short rest refresh.

My last campaign, my bard was, honestly, the best in combat character.
Our party was a Gloomstalker Ranger, a Shadow Monk, A Totem Barbarian, a Life Cleric, and me - a Lore Bard.

I used magical secrets to get Counterspell and Crusaders mantle.

So, try to understand, i put up crusaders mantle adding 1d4 damage per hit from everyone - so add up all the hits between the Barb, Ranger, and Monk - often times just from that Aura im passively doing like 6-8d4 damage.

Now account for the idea of my meddling - Once per round i have a high chance of turning a hit into a miss with cutting words, or counterspelling a spell.

Now account for my charms. We had a BIG fight where we were totally outmatched, and we were supposed to lose this fight. It was us 5 up against a Demon, 2 small hell hounds, 1 giant 3 headed hell hound, and 1 hill giant with a tree he was swinging as a club.

Now, this fight the DM had planned for us to lose.

But, in walks the Lore Bard. Hill giant, you say? They're not so wise, *Suggestion - "That's a MEAN dog! Kill that MEAN dog!"

the Giant hell hound and the Hill Giant kill eachother (Giant kills hound, then bleeds from the hound's claws). Party smokes the regular hounds, gangs up on the Demon woman with skull whips.

DM realizes Bard broke the encounter, Demon dimension door's out...Nope. Counterspell. Bad roll? Thats OK, i have Lucky feat. Oops, Bard rolled a 20 and broke the encounter.

DM contemplates what loot we just got from this demon, and how to fix the story.




Bards wont blow up the game with Damage, they'll break the encounters with creativity and manipulation. That's their combat roll.

[Trustypeaches]

Eh, I mean. They do more damage, but they are also pretty commonly agreed upon to be the two worst archtypes. This is where I would rate success. The cost of doing damage is high enough to be considered a downgrade.I don't really agree.

Improving a bard's at-will resourceless damage output is a nice boon, and that's what Valor and Swords bards do. Of course, it depends on the nature of the campaign how much you need to conserve spell slots and thus how useful resourceless damage output is.

[OutOfThyme]

In this campaign, there's lots of interactions with npcs and mystery-solving, but the dm has upped the challenge of combats by making stronger than normal encounters pretty much every time. Often, foes will get high bonuses to hit and do several dice-worth of damage on each attack. We've already lost our gunsmith artificer and nearly lost the hexblade the player replaced him with during that character's very first battle. We've had 2 other times were death saves have been required and my barbarian has nearly dropped 3 times in 5 sessions because of taking so much damage even with resistances. I want to do a bard, but I would need high survivability AND good damage to have a chance of not losing the character. I was hoping that the bard support spells and healing would help with this, but it sounds as if they're too fragile to work in this campaign. :(

They're really not. You have a lot of ways to shut down an enemy, especially if you're playing a Lore Bard. Enemy engages you in melee? Cutting Words. Enemy casts a spell? You should probably have Counterspell as a Lore Bard at 6th level. Multiple enemies? Sleep/Hypnotic Pattern and throw out Cutting Words against an enemy you want to fall asleep. They can be squishy if you're just looking at numbers, but you have a lot of ways to shut down enemies that compensate for your relative squishiness.

On top of that, you're less numerically squishy than wizards or sorcerers. You at least have some armor proficiency and better hit dice, and you have healing and can heal more on short rest.

I've been in fairly dangerous combat situations as a Bard, and I've managed to stay alive by proactively and reactively shutting down my enemies. Damage isn't everything, and the Bard really sells that idea in 5E. You won't be doing as much damage as the Bard, but being able to lock down an enemy with Hold Person means that the party members that can deal damage will.

[Potato_Priest]

I’ve got to disagree with the assertion that bards are buffing specialists. While a lore bard who puts all their resources into acquiring buff spells will be about the best buffer it is possible to be, any other configuration of the class falls behind the wizard, the cleric, or both.

While bardic inspiration has been favorably compared to bless and guidance here, it doesn’t take a genius to see that those abilities are far stronger due to the number of dice they can give for the resource expenditure. (Though bardic inspiration does have the nice boost of not requiring concentration)

Further, bards don’t have access to the best buff spells like stoneskin and haste, except through magical secrets. This means that to even catch up to a wizard in the buffing department, they have to spend their extraordinarily valuable class specific resource.

Thus, by simple virtue of their spell list, I’d argue that bards are not the best buffers in the game.

Their situation is a bit better, but still not great in the debuffs department. A wizard again has a superior spell list (especially post xanathar’s with frostbite as a vicious mockery knockoff), though bards can catch up if they want to blow their special resources on being as good, but not much better, than another class. The reason I say bards are better here than at buffs is the spell list differences are less obvious and problematic, and the cleric isn’t also in the running here, getting basically zilch after the god-mode spell known as command.

Do they still make adequate buff/debuffers with a mix of skill monkey thrown in? Certainly. Just not perhaps as good at either as their previous edition history might suggest.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

You won't be doing as much damage as the Bard, but being able to lock down an enemy with Hold Person means that the party members that can deal damage will.

Not directly anyway. You can do quite a bit when you hit the hill giant with enemies abound.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

What if I were to go the sharpshooter route? Would that allow for halfway decent damage? Is valor bard the only route to go without missing lots of spell slots and spell levels through multiclassing in order to get a second attack per turn?

2nd attack per turn?

Is that important when you're Polymorphing an enemy into a turtle?

Think outside the box. Valor Bards get a 2nd attack I believe. That said I enjoy Lore Bards more for the flexibility. EVERY round of combat you will have an action and a bonus action to take then a "yeah DM, I use cutting words on that swing" reaction or "yeah, I Counterspell that" when the big bad guy is getting ready to cast Forcecage. Heck, steal Hellish Rebuke and/or Hex with Magical Secrets or Magic Initiate if you want for more fun.

Think outside the box.

[Potato_Priest]

Has anyone made a list of the bard-exclusive spells? The only ones I can think of are vicious mockery, dissonant whispers, and compulsion.

[Trustypeaches]

They're really not. You have a lot of ways to shut down an enemy, especially if you're playing a Lore Bard. Enemy engages you in melee? Cutting Words. Enemy casts a spell? You should probably have Counterspell as a Lore Bard at 6th level. Multiple enemies? Sleep/Hypnotic Pattern and throw out Cutting Words against an enemy you want to fall asleep. You can't use Cutting Words to detract from a saving throw.

It would be insane if it did.

[samcifer]

I think my real problem is that when it comes to odd effects that don't involve die rolls for damage, buffing or de-buffing that affect enemies, I find myself at a loss on how to use them. I tried polymorph but what's the point of turning someone into a frog in a basement if they'll just turn back into what they were the instant they take damage. I mean if you turn a troll into a frog and blast him with fire only for him to change back into a troll and not have his regenearation nullified, what's the point of using polymorph at all? Why have counterspell if enemies you face use powers instead of actual spells to counter? None of it makes sense to me.

I'd rather have a fireball or lightning bolt that I know will likely do at least a little damage if they save then try hold person or banishment and have them succeed on their save, wasting my only action for a turn.

[Hail Tempus]

What if I were to go the sharpshooter route? Would that allow for halfway decent damage? Is valor bard the only route to go without missing lots of spell slots and spell levels through multiclassing in order to get a second attack per turn?
Look, if a high damage dealer is what you’re looking for, don’t play a Bard. At best, a Bard is middle of the pack when it comes to damage. But damage is a secondary part of their job.

[sophontteks]

I think my real problem is that when it comes to odd effects that don't involve die rolls for damage, buffing or de-buffing that affect enemies, I find myself at a loss on how to use them. I tried polymorph but what's the point of turning someone into a frog in a basement if they'll just turn back into what they were the instant they take damage. I mean if you turn a troll into a frog and blast him with fire only for him to change back into a troll and not have his regenearation nullified, what's the point of using polymorph at all? Why have counterspell if enemies you face use powers instead of actual spells to counter? None of it makes sense to me.

I'd rather have a fireball or lightning bolt that I know will likely do at least a little damage if they save then try hold person or banishment and have them succeed on their save, wasting my only action for a turn.
Why turn an enemy into a frog. Save or suck spells, well, suck. Use polymorph to turn your nearly-dead tank into a full-health T-rex.

[samcifer]

Why turn an enemy into a frog. Save or suck spells, well, suck. Use polymorph to turn your nearly-dead tank into a full-health T-rex.

No dinos allowed in most of our campaigns, sad to say. We've only had a single one that had zombified t-rex mutants.

[samcifer]

Look, if a high damage dealer is what you’re looking for, don’t play a Bard. At best, a Bard is middle of the pack when it comes to damage. But damage is a secondary part of their job.

I just wanted a bard for the good out-of-combat skills. Maybe mc a few bard levels on a different class if that's the case. Maybe a sorc with a few bard levels?

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I think my real problem is that when it comes to odd effects that don't involve die rolls for damage, buffing or de-buffing that affect enemies, I find myself at a loss on how to use them. I tried polymorph but what's the point of turning someone into a frog in a basement if they'll just turn back into what they were the instant they take damage. I mean if you turn a troll into a frog and blast him with fire only for him to change back into a troll and not have his regenearation nullified, what's the point of using polymorph at all? Why have counterspell if enemies you face use powers instead of actual spells to counter? None of it makes sense to me.

I'd rather have a fireball or lightning bolt that I know will likely do at least a little damage if they save then try hold person or banishment and have them succeed on their save, wasting my only action for a turn.

A party I DM for is fighting a Lich and 2 Warlocks. Imagine the joy of turning any one of the 3 into a turtle until the others can be dealt with. ALSO Polymorph can be a virtual healing spell.

Turn them into a turtle, feed em alcohol and see how the DM rules for fun.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I just wanted a bard for the good out-of-combat skills. Maybe mc a few bard levels on a different class if that's the case. Maybe a sorc with a few bard levels?

Generally I think multi classing weakens spell casters. Magic Initiate is there to make it less necessary.

Sorcerers get some neat tools themselves and there is synergy there though.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I just wanted a bard for the good out-of-combat skills. Maybe mc a few bard levels on a different class if that's the case. Maybe a sorc with a few bard levels?

Lore Bard 6 should have fireball, at least. That and counterspell are usually my magical secret picks.

I really do think you should take a second look at suggestion, enemies abound, fear and some of the other big battlefield control spells.

[sophontteks]

No dinos allowed in most of our campaigns, sad to say. We've only had a single one that had zombified t-rex mutants.
It doesn't really change anything. Polymorph is a great spell to use on your teammates.

[Keravath]

I've played a lore bard X/ hexblade warlock 2 to level 13 so far and I've found it to be very effective.

The only negative is that the spells run one level behind. However, after reaching level 7 and getting 3rd level spells, I didn't find this to be an issue since the spell DCs stay the same and 3rd level spells give sufficient choice that I didn't miss getting the next level of spells until 2 levels later.

The benefits from 2 levels of hexblade include:
- medium armor, shields and martial weapon proficiencies
- hexblade's curse 1/SR
- shield and hex spells plus 2 additional cantrips (one of which is eldritch blast)
- 2 invocations - agonizing blast + one more (Devil's sight is great if you start variant human, repelling blast is great for cantrip crowd control)
- 2 first level spell slots that refresh on a short rest (more slots for shield or other first level spells)

I found that the at will damage from agonizing blast (backed up with hex on occasion) was usually about as good as an average melee or ranged character who doesn't have a bonus action attack option. This gives the character competitive to above average at will damage IN ADDITION to all of the usual bard spell options.

I'll also add that there were times when this was actually essential. There was one combat against a demi-lich and skeletal dragon that were magic resistant with legendary saves where spells weren't doing much but agonizing blast from a couple of characters including the bard/warlock was contributing most of the damage.

On the other hand, the bard has completely dominated some combats with a strategic and lucky use of hypnotic pattern where all of the opponents failed the save turning a difficult fight into a trivial encounter. The bard then contributed to taking down the targets using agonizing blast while maintaining concentration on the hypnotic pattern.

When you add spells like suggestion, blindness (no concentration), fireball (magic secret), counterspell (magic secret) and more, the bard can provide all sorts of support.

Anyway, if you want to play a bard that can do some damage as well as meaningfully contribute with skills and spells, then a lore bard with 2 levels of hexblade warlock can do this extremely well in my experience.

Finally, the value of a lore bard's cutting words (when they remember to use it :) ), shouldn't be underestimated. The lore bard can change a hit into a miss with a decent roll (though they can't prevent crits).

P.S. Lore bard also has healing word which makes them an excellent backup healer to get a downed team mate back into the fight ... which they can then follow up with an eldritch blast if they happen to also be a warlock :)

[samcifer]

Well, I'd originally looked over the lore bard and if I were to start one at lv. 8, my spell list would go:

Mage Hand or Prestidigitation
Minor Illusion
Vicious Mockery

Comprehend Languages
Cure Wounds
Detect Magic
Dissonant Whispers (for a damaging option)
Faerie Fire
Healing Word

Heat Metal
Lesser Restoration
Phantasmal Force
Shatter

Lore Spells (from Sorcerer list)

Fireball
Shield

[samcifer]

I've played a lore bard X/ hexblade warlock 2 to level 13 so far and I've found it to be very effective.

The only negative is that the spells run one level behind. However, after reaching level 7 and getting 3rd level spells, I didn't find this to be an issue since the spell DCs stay the same and 3rd level spells give sufficient choice that I didn't miss getting the next level of spells until 2 levels later.

The benefits from 2 levels of hexblade include:
- medium armor, shields and martial weapon proficiencies
- hexblade's curse 1/SR
- shield and hex spells plus 2 additional cantrips (one of which is eldritch blast)
- 2 invocations - agonizing blast + one more (Devil's sight is great if you start variant human, repelling blast is great for cantrip crowd control)
- 2 first level spell slots that refresh on a short rest (more slots for shield or other first level spells)

I found that the at will damage from agonizing blast (backed up with hex on occasion) was usually about as good as an average melee or ranged character who doesn't have a bonus action attack option. This gives the character competitive to above average at will damage IN ADDITION to all of the usual bard spell options.

I'll also add that there were times when this was actually essential. There was one combat against a demi-lich and skeletal dragon that were magic resistant with legendary saves where spells weren't doing much but agonizing blast from a couple of characters including the bard/warlock was contributing most of the damage.

On the other hand, the bard has completely dominated some combats with a strategic and lucky use of hypnotic pattern where all of the opponents failed the save turning a difficult fight into a trivial encounter. The bard then contributed to taking down the targets using agonizing blast while maintaining concentration on the hypnotic pattern.

When you add spells like suggestion, blindness (no concentration), fireball (magic secret), counterspell (magic secret) and more, the bard can provide all sorts of support.

Anyway, if you want to play a bard that can do some damage as well as meaningfully contribute with skills and spells, then a lore bard with 2 levels of hexblade warlock can do this extremely well in my experience.

Finally, the value of a lore bard's cutting words (when they remember to use it :) ), shouldn't be underestimated. The lore bard can change a hit into a miss with a decent roll (though they can't prevent crits).

P.S. Lore bard also has healing word which makes them an excellent backup healer to get a downed team mate back into the fight ... which they can then follow up with an eldritch blast if they happen to also be a warlock :)

Yeah, Hexblade 2/lore bard 6+ with Fireball sounds much more appealing to me. Agonizing Repelling EB with Hex sounds pretty good and having Shield as well as having half-plate + a shield and charisma for melee attacking if foes get too close seems to be more in keeping with my ability to play a caster.

[Xihirli]

If you want to put Hex up that will keep basically all of your control by the wayside. With the style you've just posed everything you want is a Sorlock.

Bards, built like bards, always have something better to concentrate on than hex. Always.

Now bards are incredible. I love them a lot.
But when you're talking about a Bard/Warlock that uses Fireball and Hex to maximize DPS with a Medium Armor and shield, what I hear is that you'd be happier with a Hexblade/Sorcerer.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Well, I'd originally looked over the lore bard and if I were to start one at lv. 8, my spell list would go:

Mage Hand or Prestidigitation
Minor Illusion
Vicious Mockery

Comprehend Languages
Cure Wounds
Detect Magic
Dissonant Whispers (for a damaging option)
Faerie Fire
Healing Word

Heat Metal
Lesser Restoration
Phantasmal Force
Shatter

Lore Spells (from Sorcerer list)

Fireball
Shield

Not a bad list. Its entirely functional.

I don't like Cure Wounds for a Bard. Let a Cleric worry about REALLY healing ppl. The ranged bonus action Healing Word is a Bard heal.

My Lore bards generally DON'T want to be in melee so I have Thunderwave. Its an AOE which can get you out of melee sometimes.

I'e pimped Counterspell a couple times. Shield is nifty though.

Fireball is really neat. By he time you get it you may not need Shatter unless you are targeting a different save.

Any tricky Ranger or Paladin spells that interest you besides Fireball? Bards can cast Ranger and Paladin spells better than Rangers and Paladins.

Fear is fun also, especially if you are playing a small non intimidating looking Bard.

[JackPhoenix]

I have never seen a bard do this and it's hard to imagine that one ever could. Vicious Mockery has pathetic damage and targets a strong save. Even ignoring legendary resistance, a 20th level bard with Cha 20 would have to cast Vicious Mockery 25 times in a row to deal the 178 HP of damage needed to kill even a Young Red Dragon, and it would take 48 castings to kill an Adult Red Dragon. Long before that happens, the dragon will have killed and eaten the bard.

You could kill an orc by insulting it though. :-P

P.S. The disadvantage from Vicious Mockery is decent at low levels and nigh-irrelevant at higher levels, because it only works on one attack. If you Vicious Mockery a CR 5 troll at 5th level, even if he fails the save you're only imposing disadvantage on the d6+4 (7) bite attack, but the 2d6+8 (15) of claw attacks are unhindered.

Of course it doesn't work if you just mock the dragon. The correct way to do it is to add insult to injury, propably caused by some other party member.

[samcifer]

Not a bad list. Its entirely functional.

I don't like Cure Wounds for a Bard. Let a Cleric worry about REALLY healing ppl. The ranged bonus action Healing Word is a Bard heal.

My Lore bards generally DON'T want to be in melee so I have Thunderwave. Its an AOE which can get you out of melee sometimes.

I'e pimped Counterspell a couple times. Shield is nifty though.

Fireball is really neat. By he time you get it you may not need Shatter unless you are targeting a different save.

Any tricky Ranger or Paladin spells that interest you besides Fireball? Bards can cast Ranger and Paladin spells better than Rangers and Paladins.

Fear is fun also, especially if you are playing a small non intimidating looking Bard.

I suppose Spike Growth would be an interesting spell to take.

[Sigreid]

Bard is a force multiplier for the party that is never really at a loss for something useful to do. That said, they're not really the center stage action hero. If making the other heroes more epic isn't your bag there's no shame in not wanting to play one.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Not a bad list. Its entirely functional.

I don't like Cure Wounds for a Bard. Let a Cleric worry about REALLY healing ppl. The ranged bonus action Healing Word is a Bard heal.

My Lore bards generally DON'T want to be in melee so I have Thunderwave. Its an AOE which can get you out of melee sometimes.

I'e pimped Counterspell a couple times. Shield is nifty though.

Fireball is really neat. By he time you get it you may not need Shatter unless you are targeting a different save.

Any tricky Ranger or Paladin spells that interest you besides Fireball? Bards can cast Ranger and Paladin spells better than Rangers and Paladins.

Fear is fun also, especially if you are playing a small non intimidating looking Bard.

I think the best paladin and ranger spells come in with the level 10 magical secrets.

[Rukelnikov]

Eh, I mean. They do more damage, but they are also pretty commonly agreed upon to be the two worst archtypes. This is where I would rate success. The cost of doing damage is high enough to be considered a downgrade.

Wasn't aware that was the case, I only played a Lore bard, which I think is generally agreed is the most powerful college, but given the chance to play another I'd go Swords without a doubt, those guys seem pretty strong to me.

[bid]

Level 1: Hexblade 1 (for Wis/Cha save proficiencies, medium armor + shields, Shield spell, Hex)

If you go Valor or Sword bard you can even dual-wield short swords for 6d6+4ish (three attacks at 2d6 each from Hex, +Dex bonus on the first two) though it requires an initial setup round for Hex and personally I would just stick with sword + shield.
Even better, +Cha bonus since you're hexblade.

[sophontteks]

Wasn't aware that was the case, I only played a Lore bard, which I think is generally agreed is the most powerful college, but given the chance to play another I'd go Swords without a doubt, those guys seem pretty strong to me.
I think its a three-way tie. Lore is just the most obviously powerful. Both Valor and Glamour will fight for that top spot very competitively, and in many situations, totally overshadow lore bards.

Valor bards are mistaken as being hybrid caster/fighters. Really they are full casters with shields, medium armor, and an incredibly strong grapple game. There are no agro mechanics in this game really, so giving a bard 19 AC in a tough campaign is a really big deal. Expertise in one of the most useful skills in the game isn't bad either. Valor bards can compete with barbarians in the grapple game. Great at-will single-target CC.

And glamour bards. First, their charm nuke is all sorts of crazy in any social situation. It's potentially game-breaking in certain campaigns. But we are here for combat. The glamour bard inspiration is basically sculpt spell for bards, except its better. Healing and repositioning on top of sculpt spell is insane, and bards have plenty of powerful AOEs to make this a top-tier bardic ability.

Swords, unlike valor, really is a gish. The spellcasting and fighting don't play nice. He has to swing a weapon to get the same AC bonus valor just always has on. If he's swinging, he can't cast spells. That's not a good deal for a full caster at all. And the actual swinging isn't impressive enough to carry the day. Its not bad, but its definately weaker.

[Crgaston]

No dinos allowed in most of our campaigns, sad to say. We've only had a single one that had zombified t-rex mutants.


It doesn't really change anything. Polymorph is a great spell to use on your teammates.

A Giant Ape is crazy good. It turns you or your nearly-dead ally into Huge beast with 157 HP and 23 Str, a +9 Athletics for grappling, and a 40' Climb Speed. You can grapple any creature in the game. You can grab a Medium creature, run up a wall or tree, then toss them up like a volleyball serve and punch them at +9 for 3d10+6 plus the subsequent falling damage and Prone condition. Or you could just punch them twice. You also have a decent ranged attack with the thrown boulder.

[Xihirli]

I don't much like the T-Rex anyway. Can't multiattack the same target when an enemy is just as dangerous at 5 hit points as 37.

[Bovine Colonel]

I mean if you turn a troll into a frog and blast him with fire only for him to change back into a troll and not have his regenearation nullified, what's the point of using polymorph at all?

The trick in that situation is to ignore the frog until the rest of the enemy team is dead.

More generally, let's say you've got 4 enemies. Three of them are smaller monsters, which your party can kill in one round, and one is a big guy that takes 3 rounds for your party to kill. The small monsters deal 10 damage on their turns, and the big one does 30. If you just do damage to them one at a time, starting with the smaller monsters, your party takes:

60 damage on the first turn (30 from the small guys, 30 from the big one)
then 50 on the second turn
then 40
then 30
then 30 again, since it takes longer to kill the big monster
then 30

for a total of 240 damage to the party. If you start by killing the big one, your party instead takes:

60 damage
then 60 again
then 60 (and the big monster dies this round)
then 30
then 20
then 10

which is also 240 damage.

Now, instead of doing nothing but damage, let's say you land a Polymorph or Suggestion on the big monster on the first turn, so he can't do anything until the party decides to fight him. Since this is a simple example let's say that not only do you, the bard, go last but somehow (?) your whole party doesn't get to do any damage on the turn you cast that spell. In this case, your party takes:

60 damage the first round, since the big monster is still up
then 30
then 20
then 10
then 0, and your party gets to heal up and act before the big monster now
then 30
then 30

for a total of 180 damage. By turning one fight (vs all 4 monsters) into two fights, you're stopping some of the monsters (in this case the big guy) from doing damage while you fight the other monsters. It only cost you one spell to take away 1/4 of the whole enemy team's damage, and you're still helping your team with damage and buffs and whatever else on round 2 and afterward.

If you can completely shut down the big monster so that it can't even fight back (Fear, Phantasmal Force, Hold Person, maybe Blindness, Suggestion to stand perfectly still so your Fighter can tie it up), or do something to shut down the big guy and someone else (maybe use Suggestion to make the big monster grapple one of the others, or upcast Blindness or Hold Person, or hit everybody with a Fear or Stinking Cloud) the numbers get even better--and it still only costs you one action.

[Potato_Priest]

Valor bards are mistaken as being hybrid caster/fighters. Really they are full casters with shields, medium armor, and an incredibly strong grapple game. There are no agro mechanics in this game really, so giving a bard 19 AC in a tough campaign is a really big deal. Expertise in one of the most useful skills in the game isn't bad either. Valor bards can compete with barbarians in the grapple game. Great at-will single-target CC.


At actually grappling opponents they indeed compete very well with barbarians. At staying alive after restricting an enemy to close range (the “secret” requirement for any grappler), they fall decidedly behind barbarians (and even grappler rogues thanks to their uncanny dodge and evasion, or grappler wizards thanks to arcane ward+shield).

At mobility (a nice boost for grapplers but not strictly necessary) they again fall behind the barbarian and rogue thanks to increased movement speed and cunning actions, but are about on par with the wizard.

At the end of the day, if I want a grappler, there are at least three other classes I’d choose first now that the prodigy feat makes expertise available to all.

[Rukelnikov]

I think its a three-way tie. Lore is just the most obviously powerful. Both Valor and Glamour will fight for that top spot very competitively, and in many situations, totally overshadow lore bards.

Valor bards are mistaken as being hybrid caster/fighters. Really they are full casters with shields, medium armor, and an incredibly strong grapple game. There are no agro mechanics in this game really, so giving a bard 19 AC in a tough campaign is a really big deal. Expertise in one of the most useful skills in the game isn't bad either. Valor bards can compete with barbarians in the grapple game. Great at-will single-target CC.

And glamour bards. First, their charm nuke is all sorts of crazy in any social situation. It's potentially game-breaking in certain campaigns. But we are here for combat. The glamour bard inspiration is basically sculpt spell for bards, except its better. Healing and repositioning on top of sculpt spell is insane, and bards have plenty of powerful AOEs to make this a top-tier bardic ability.

Swords, unlike valor, really is a gish. The spellcasting and fighting don't play nice. He has to swing a weapon to get the same AC bonus valor just always has on. If he's swinging, he can't cast spells. That's not a good deal for a full caster at all. And the actual swinging isn't impressive enough to carry the day. Its not bad, but its definately weaker.

Problem is, you are looking at a Swords Bard and thinking how you would play him as a Lore bard or Valor bard, play him for what he is, a gish, like you would play an EK or a Sorcadin.

You are not gonna be focusing on buffing anyone but yourself (save for Aid), and later your Greater Steed. AC is not gonna be a problem because you WILL be swinging a sword every turn. You will have to start with the tax lvl of Hexblade though. Also they make great ranged attackers.

[Skylivedk]

they are not very weak (plenty of folks before me gave examples of what they can do), but they definitely are lacking in the damage department. If combat is the main focus of your campaign, I don't wanna sell you the bard, to be honest. Even if you would like a support / heal / controll character and don't mind damage too much, I'd rather recommend a cleric (with heavy armor and shield) or Druid (shepard is great for that). Let's be fair: a Bard is really, really good with skills and had very nice utility spells, the trade off is combat abilities. If you don't use the former in your game, there's no compensation for the relative weak latter, and it simply isn't a great class for your game.

They don't though. They trade one type of combat effectiveness for another. Hypnotic Pattern and Fear are the two best level 3 control spells. Polymorph is the best heal spell until Heal and doubles as single target cc. Animate object is one of the best DPR spells in the game.

Their real weakness isn't combat generally speaking: it's certain creature types.


Do they only mitigate damage through healing or are there other ways to lower damage to party members for bards? Admittedly I tend to focus on blasters for spellcasting, hence my difficulty in seeing the value of bards.

Healing is very very bad mitigation. Causing opponents to lose turns, attack each other, attack with disadvantage/penalties are great ways of mitigating damage. Rolling legendary deception checks and cutting words on insight checks combine to a similarly great way to preemptively end encounters.


I’ve got to disagree with the assertion that bards are buffing specialists. While a lore bard who puts all their resources into acquiring buff spells will be about the best buffer it is possible to be, any other configuration of the class falls behind the wizard, the cleric, or both.

While bardic inspiration has been favorably compared to bless and guidance here, it doesn’t take a genius to see that those abilities are far stronger due to the number of dice they can give for the resource expenditure. (Though bardic inspiration does have the nice boost of not requiring concentration)

Further, bards don’t have access to the best buff spells like stoneskin and haste, except through magical secrets. This means that to even catch up to a wizard in the buffing department, they have to spend their extraordinarily valuable class specific resource.

Thus, by simple virtue of their spell list, I’d argue that bards are not the best buffers in the game.

Their situation is a bit better, but still not great in the debuffs department. A wizard again has a superior spell list (especially post xanathar’s with frostbite as a vicious mockery knockoff), though bards can catch up if they want to blow their special resources on being as good, but not much better, than another class. The reason I say bards are better here than at buffs is the spell list differences are less obvious and problematic, and the cleric isn’t also in the running here, getting basically zilch after the god-mode spell known as command.

Do they still make adequate buff/debuffers with a mix of skill monkey thrown in? Certainly. Just not perhaps as good at either as their previous edition history might suggest.

I agree that they miss Haste. I don't think I've ever picked up Stoneskin on any caster ever not prepared it when I had it for free. Bards have most of the good debuffs. Lore Bards are downright filthy with illusions due to the handicap they give to investigation checks. Since you can only run one concentration spell at a time, I don't think you should think of them as competing with Wizards. A bit with clerics maybe... still Faerie Fire + Bless = Enemies on the floor bleeding, crying for their mummy.

But the comparison between Bless and Bardic inspiration makes no sense.
A) they stack. Very powerful.
B) you end up getting 15(!) Bardic Inspirations per normal adventuring day. And you still have your spell slots.
C) BI ends up giving much bigger average bonuses/penalties


I think my real problem is that when it comes to odd effects that don't involve die rolls for damage, buffing or de-buffing that affect enemies, I find myself at a loss on how to use them. I tried polymorph but what's the point of turning someone into a frog in a basement if they'll just turn back into what they were the instant they take damage. I mean if you turn a troll into a frog and blast him with fire only for him to change back into a troll and not have his regenearation nullified, what's the point of using polymorph at all? Why have counterspell if enemies you face use powers instead of actual spells to counter? None of it makes sense to me.

I'd rather have a fireball or lightning bolt that I know will likely do at least a little damage if they save then try hold person or banishment and have them succeed on their save, wasting my only action for a turn.

It seems like you would benefit a lot from reading Treantmonk's guide to Wizards... And maybe also his video on Valor Bards. And IMO, he's not even close to maximizing potential yet.

Taking an enemy out of the fight is great if it's the right enemy. Otherwise, polymorph is the best heal in the game until tier 3 that can also double (triple) as utility.


It doesn't really change anything. Polymorph is a great spell to use on your teammates.
Disagree.


Well, I'd originally looked over the lore bard and if I were to start one at lv. 8, my spell list would go:

Mage Hand or Prestidigitation
Minor Illusion
Vicious Mockery

Comprehend Languages
Cure Wounds
Detect Magic
Dissonant Whispers (for a damaging option)
Faerie Fire
Healing Word

Heat Metal
Lesser Restoration
Phantasmal Force
Shatter

Lore Spells (from Sorcerer list)

Fireball
Shield
Ditch cure wounds. It's a pretty awful spell most of the time. Sleep, Thunderwave (especially if you have someone with Spiked Growth), Silent Image and occasionally Heroism (dragons) are all better. Maybe also let the Wizard do the detect magic.

I find Suggestion, Blindness/Deafness, Invisibility and Silence to outclass Shatter easily. I'd take Counterspell over Shield any day of the week. If give Conjure Animals a look if you have someone with Fireball. It's crazy strong. Hexblade 1 it's probably too good not to take. You can grab Shield that way and increase your survivability a whole lot. Also WIS > Dex as a saving throw IMX. Later maybe do the 2nd level if you really miss that DPR. Probably not worth before 5 or 11 even.


Problem is, you are looking at a Swords Bard and thinking how you would play him as a Lore bard or Valor bard, play him for what he is, a gish, like you would play an EK or a Sorcadin.

You are not gonna be focusing on buffing anyone but yourself (save for Aid), and later your Greater Steed. AC is not gonna be a problem because you WILL be swinging a sword every turn. You will have to start with the tax lvl of Hexblade though. Also they make great ranged attackers.

Nope. Problem is that your buffs are better spend elsewhere and you're a below average martial for most/all of the game. Your other abilities do not make YOU better at fighting. No synergy.

If you want gish, go Sorcadin, Hexblade, Padlock, EK, Arcana Cleric, Bladesinger (meh) are all better. Don't gish with Valor without dipping... And if you dip, seriously ask yourself if Valor is worth it compared to more martial (Swords/Whisper) or more control (Lore/Glamour)

[Agent-KI7KO]

I hit level 4 on my bard with one confirmed kill throughout the entire duration.

It was an elf child that a demon mind controlled me for one turn to kill.

I also only have exactly one healing spell and almost no damaging ones yet somehow everyone in this 100-player server wants me in their party.

If you ask me why, I honestly don’t know what i bring to the table aside my RP.

EDIT: i am weak in attrition combat but i bring control and so many out of combat utility that it balances out and i enjoy it.

[sophontteks]

At actually grappling opponents they indeed compete very well with barbarians. At staying alive after restricting an enemy to close range (the “secret” requirement for any grappler), they fall decidedly behind barbarians (and even grappler rogues thanks to their uncanny dodge and evasion, or grappler wizards thanks to arcane ward+shield).

At mobility (a nice boost for grapplers but not strictly necessary) they again fall behind the barbarian and rogue thanks to increased movement speed and cunning actions, but are about on par with the wizard.

At the end of the day, if I want a grappler, there are at least three other classes I’d choose first now that the prodigy feat makes expertise available to all.
Don't forget bards have the level 1 spell, longstrider, for +10 movement. And the grapple trip combo gives the enemy disadvantage on attacks. It's not the grappled target which is the problem, it's other targets nearby. With a high AC a bard can more or less take a target out of the fight by grappling. Beating their AC with disadvantage is pretty tough.

But mostly grappling isn't an all or nothing strategy. The valor bard pays very little for excellent grappling. I definately agree that a barbarian is better due to just being a better martial class, but the Bard is a full caster on top of it.

A barbarian may be looking to grapple targets by charging right into the thick of it. A valor bard is instead using their spellcasting primarily. But when enemies inevitabley push past the tanks, the bard can pin them down in a single turn with a high success rate and no slots used.

This changes over time. When valor bards get magical secrets they could pick up enlarge/reduce if they wanted to be more dedicated grapplers. At which point they have a pretty sizable advantage over martial grapplers.

[darknite]

They're typically support casters and skill monkeys but I've found the Sword Bard to be a very powerful melee character who also happens to be a full caster.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yeah, Hexblade 2/lore bard 6+ with Fireball sounds much more appealing to me. Agonizing Repelling EB with Hex sounds pretty good and having Shield as well as having half-plate + a shield and charisma for melee attacking if foes get too close seems to be more in keeping with my ability to play a caster.
That's pretty damn solid, yeah. A Hexblade dip on any Cha-based character is strong, but especially on a Bard who otherwise doesn't have great damage options.

If you want to go the Sharpshooter route, a Valor/Swords bard is honestly pretty solid at it. No Archery Style stinks, but you have Hand Crossbow proficiency for Crossbow Expert, and at higher levels you can pick up Swift Quiver via Magical Secrets to turbocharge your rate of fire.

You might also see if your DM will let you use the College of the Storm from my Guide to Greatness. It's all about calling down thunder and lightning on your enemies to add some direct damage to the mix-- you get boosted versions of Gust, Shocking Grasp, and Thunderclap, and can spend Inspiration dice to mix in Call Lightning.

[Potato_Priest]

But mostly grappling isn't an all or nothing strategy. The valor bard pays very little for excellent grappling. I definately agree that a barbarian is better due to just being a better martial class, but the Bard is a full caster on top of it.

A barbarian may be looking to grapple targets by charging right into the thick of it. A valor bard is instead using their spellcasting primarily. But when enemies inevitabley push past the tanks, the bard can pin them down in a single turn with a high success rate and no slots.

Wizards also have longstrider, (and enlarge/reduce from level 3 onwards) so are still fully competitive there, and rogues and barbs have the equivalents always on without resource expenditure. Also, I enjoyed the sizeable advantage pun.

That said, I agree with your points below. A valor bard can make a relatively good grappler for low investment if you’ve already got the 4 good attributes necessary to make a strength based one, (dex for armor, str for attacks, con for hit points, cha for spellcasting) and they will be better off being a caster that can grapple in certain specific scenarios where it’s useful than trying to act like a dedicated grappler-tank like a barbarian.


I agree that they miss Haste. I don't think I've ever picked up Stoneskin on any caster ever not prepared it when I had it for free. Bards have most of the good debuffs. Lore Bards are downright filthy with illusions due to the handicap they give to investigation checks. Since you can only run one concentration spell at a time, I don't think you should think of them as competing with Wizards. A bit with clerics maybe... still Faerie Fire + Bless = Enemies on the floor bleeding, crying for their mummy.

But the comparison between Bless and Bardic inspiration makes no sense.
A) they stack. Very powerful.
B) you end up getting 15(!) Bardic Inspirations per normal adventuring day. And you still have your spell slots.
C) BI ends up giving much bigger average bonuses/penalties


Fair on bardic inspiration and bless.

Also, what do you mean wizards and bards aren’t competing? If you mean that they won’t prevent each other from doing their thing in a party then I absolutely agree, the more buffs the merrier. That doesn’t change the fact that wizards have better buffs and more options to spend their concentration on than bards, unless bards blow magical secrets on catching up.

Also, I don’t know why your groups don’t use stoneskin. It’s absolutely amazing on a fighter or other non-barbarian melee character.

[Rukelnikov]

Nope. Problem is that your buffs are better spend elsewhere and you're a below average martial for most/all of the game. Your other abilities do not make YOU better at fighting. No synergy.

If you want gish, go Sorcadin, Hexblade, Padlock, EK, Arcana Cleric, Bladesinger (meh) are all better. Don't gish with Valor without dipping... And if you dip, seriously ask yourself if Valor is worth it compared to more martial (Swords/Whisper) or more control (Lore/Glamour)

I was talking about Swords...

[samcifer]

Yeah, the more I think on it, the better hexblade/lore sounds like an option I can enjoy playing so long as I focus on damaging spells for the lore spells. It's good defenses, a single attack stat with good weapons from up close and range, no drop in HP like with the sorc route and the ability to use damaging spells that I understand the usefulness of better than most illusions, charms and enchantments (the kinds of spells I just can't figure out good uses for). It may not be an optimal bard, but it's what I know how to play.

[MaxWilson]

But the comparison between Bless and Bardic inspiration makes no sense.
A) they stack. Very powerful.
B) you end up getting 15(!) Bardic Inspirations per normal adventuring day. And you still have your spell slots.
C) BI ends up giving much bigger average bonuses/penalties

(D) BI happens after the roll, so can be used more efficiently. Bless turns a miss into a hit about 1/7 of the time, so in a party with lots of Extra Attacks it will add about one hit per round. 6/7 of Bless rolls are wasted. Bardic Inspiration has an efficiency/effectiveness tradeoff but if you just use it whenever you want the median bonus, only about 1/2 of Bardic Inspiration will get wasted.

Net: those 15 rolls go further than they sound like they'd go.

Also, not requiring concentration and being on a bonus action are both huge. It's like getting to cast single target Bless and one other spell, both in the same turn.

[Potato_Priest]

(D) BI happens after the roll, so can be used more efficiently. Bless turns a miss into a hit about 1/7 of the time, so in a party with lots of Extra Attacks it will add about one hit per round. 6/7 of Bless rolls are wasted. Bardic Inspiration has an efficiency/effectiveness tradeoff but if you just use it whenever you want the median bonus, only about 1/2 of Bardic Inspiration will get wasted.

Net: those 15 rolls go further than they sound like they'd go.

Also, not requiring concentration and being on a bonus action are both huge. It's like getting to cast single target Bless and one other spell, both in the same turn.

Yeah, I can concede to that. Those are a lot of significant upsides. Out-of-combat I still prefer guidance, but BI applying after you roll is indeed huge, especially for GWMers and the like.

[Skylivedk]

Also, what do you mean wizards and bards aren’t competing? If you mean that they won’t prevent each other from doing their thing in a party then I absolutely agree, the more buffs the merrier. That doesn’t change the fact that wizards have better buffs and more options to spend their concentration on than bards, unless bards blow bardic inspiration on catching up.

Also, I don’t know why your groups don’t use stoneskin. It’s absolutely amazing on a fighter or other non-barbarian melee character.
That as a party role, I'd see wizards more in competition with sorc's than bards. The other point is that the bard sharing some spells with the wizard, it frees the wizard to cast haste (or the sorc...). I'd say you normally don't have the toss up between the wiz and the bard when you compose your party. It's more likely to be between your sorc and your bard or your bard and your rogue. With wizard being the only INT class, they're almost mandatory in my book. As a player, my party just lost their wizard. Avg. IQ of party dropped with 50%. Not pretty.

As for Stoneskin: since it only targets 1 target, a limited amount of damage types and does nothing against status effects, I find it too limited. Normally, I'd rather my concentration slot go for an AoE debuff or something that mitigates both damage and spells (Greater Invisibility). It's rare that something dealing physical damage can effectively be held back by the fighter alone. It's not that Stoneskin isn't good... It's just not good enough ;) Arcane Eye, Banishment, Confusion, Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility and Polymorph and Otiluke's Resilient Sphere are all better in my experience. Depending on situation, I might add Evard's Black Tentacles, Fireshield and Wall of Fire. So definitely not top-5, probably fighting to be in top-10 if even that. Aka not good.


I was talking about Swords...
M'bad... Teaches me to drink (coffee) before posting. Eye-to-brain jumble.

[Bloodcloud]

What if I were to go the sharpshooter route? Would that allow for halfway decent damage? Is valor bard the only route to go without missing lots of spell slots and spell levels through multiclassing in order to get a second attack per turn?

My party has a Bard. He proved very effective.

Now, at low level Bards suffer a bit. They are not very resiliant, and lack damage dealing option. They don,t have a lot of spell slots, so they might spend a few turns not doing much, that is true.

But as you get more spell slots, you get to shine big time in combat.

Don't try to do much damage yourself. Act as a damage multiplier for others.

Dissonant whisper so the rogue gets a reaction sneak attack? Yes please!

Heat metal to debuff the big armored combattant? Attaboy! Might have just saved the party.

Hypnotic pattern to remove half the enemy from the fight? It's super effective!

That said, valor bard does get decent damage with sharpshooter. If your party is low on ranged damage option, might be worth it. Otherwise, go lore and grab the good spells.

Regarding damage mitigation, cutting word (lore bard) can turn hit into miss on a reaction, so that's less damage right there. The valor one can be used on AC and do the same. And you got some good healing options.

[Frozenstep]

I don't much like the T-Rex anyway. Can't multiattack the same target when an enemy is just as dangerous at 5 hit points as 37.

I could use the same argument to support the opposite. Against a tough, medium sized target, another hit may not kill them, but the t-rex's hit will at least restrain them. It makes for a better attack of opportunity too.

Only useful against a medium or smaller creature that can take like 50+ damage, though.

[Torpin]

im barding in 3 different campaigns right now, 2 lore and a valor, ive barded easily 30-40 times in the last two decades. so here are some fun things you can do as a bard.
1st level you can cast dissonant whisper, and if it succeeds possibly doubling your groups damage per round.
got a cleric in heavy armor and you guys need to sneak past some people great you inspire it. boom for the low cost of 1 inspiration your cleric can decently sneak since disadvange +d6 averages out to the practically the same as a regular check.
10th level you get holy sword, potentially doubling your fighters dpr, with just your concentration, and still take your full action.
15th glibness... let me say that again glibness. by now your charisma should be at least a +4 meaning it is impossible for you to roll less than a 21 a charisma check, i.e. dispel and counterspell which means unless they have cutting words you always succeed at those checks.
let us not forget you can always seduce your foe.

[LibraryOgre]

Bards don't do well in small parties in my opinion, but if you put them as the 5th man in a party, suddenly you've got a dangerous party. Between all the great buff and debuff spells, bardic inspiration, and magical secrets, you have a class that can fill any gaps nicely and make everyone else better.

It does gear more towards RP than combat, but it's no slouch when it comes to a fight. Jack of all trades applies to counterspell and dispel magic too, which is a bonus unto itself.

Conversely, bards can do GREAT in a small party that can't otherwise cover every role. Because they are Jacks of All Trades, they can kind of do all the skills no one got proficient in. Depending on their spell list (and college) they can fill any role you need... perhaps not as well as a specialist, but that's why they're at their best either when you need 1 person to fill two roles ("Shoot, we don't have a cleric OR a thief"), or when you have all the roles filled and just need someone to make everyone shine.

In a large party, the bard's job is to make everyone awesome. To turn defeat into hair-raising victories. To be a second set of hands on every skill.

Bards rock. They are the ultimate protagonist class, and go well with pretty much everything.

[denthor]

Your playing for fun.

[Waterdeep Merch]

This seems so strange to me. I think bards are one of the best classes in the game, and my player base agrees- I get one in nearly every game.

Their spell list has a fantastic mix of support and utility with some control thrown in for good measure, Bardic Inspiration is sort of like having a walking Lucky feat for the whole party and prevents disasters, and their subclasses offer mostly strong features, too. They're practically unrivaled in the social pillar, useful enough in the exploration pillar that you can forgo an arcane caster, and amplify everyone else in the combat pillar.

What they don't do is tank and throw out gobs of damage. You can only get so competent at those two things, regardless of build. I think that's why a lot of other players might overlook the bard- you just don't get to see those chunky numbers thrown around.

[LibraryOgre]

This seems so strange to me. I think bards are one of the best classes in the game, and my player base agrees- I get one in nearly every game.

Their spell list has a fantastic mix of support and utility with some control thrown in for good measure, Bardic Inspiration is sort of like having a walking Lucky feat for the whole party and prevents disasters, and their subclasses offer mostly strong features, too. They're practically unrivaled in the social pillar, useful enough in the exploration pillar that you can forgo an arcane caster, and amplify everyone else in the combat pillar.

What they don't do is tank and throw out gobs of damage. You can only get so competent at those two things, regardless of build. I think that's why a lot of other players might overlook the bard- you just don't get to see those chunky numbers thrown around.

One of my groups would get a bit competitive about damage... they did not like it when I started claiming damage that I enabled. That +1 to damage I gave you? That's MY damage, not yours. Did you hit only because I have you a +2 to hit? ALL that damage is mine.

It was always friendly, but a bard who keeps track of HOW they are helping usually winds up showing that they're doing a lot.

[darknite]

My high level Sword Bard / Hexblade is stupid amazing in melee and viciously effective as a covert operative. Having an Amulet of Health helps, though!

[Waterdeep Merch]

One of my groups would get a bit competitive about damage... they did not like it when I started claiming damage that I enabled. That +1 to damage I gave you? That's MY damage, not yours. Did you hit only because I have you a +2 to hit? ALL that damage is mine.

It was always friendly, but a bard who keeps track of HOW they are helping usually winds up showing that they're doing a lot.
Oh, definitely. The GWM Barbarian wouldn't be half as good without all those buffs ensuring his hits land, and the Rogue would've died sessions ago if the monsters weren't consistently fighting through disadvantage from Vicious Mockery and Cutting Words deflecting some serious blows.

While they don't do any direct damage themselves, nor can they survive it particularly well, they're a turbo charger for anyone else that can.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

One of my groups would get a bit competitive about damage... they did not like it when I started claiming damage that I enabled. That +1 to damage I gave you? That's MY damage, not yours. Did you hit only because I have you a +2 to hit? ALL that damage is mine.

It was always friendly, but a bard who keeps track of HOW they are helping usually winds up showing that they're doing a lot.

I do this, and also count all damage dealt to an enemy made vulnerable or helpless through fear or similar effects as mine.

[Hail Tempus]

One of my groups would get a bit competitive about damage... they did not like it when I started claiming damage that I enabled. That +1 to damage I gave you? That's MY damage, not yours. Did you hit only because I have you a +2 to hit? ALL that damage is mine.

It was always friendly, but a bard who keeps track of HOW they are helping usually winds up showing that they're doing a lot. Exactly. It's the "but for" test.

When my Wizard casts Haste on the Rogue, allowing him to reliably Sneak Attack two times per round, half of the Rogue's damage for that fight wouldn't have occurred but for the Wizard.

Or, how about when the Bard hits a group of enemies with Faerie Fire, which increases damage output against those enemies by around 25%? But for the Bard, that extra damage wouldn't have occurred.

[darknite]

Exactly. It's the "but for" test.

When my Wizard casts Haste on the Rogue, allowing him to reliably Sneak Attack two times per round, half of the Rogue's damage for that fight wouldn't have occurred but for the Wizard.

Or, how about when the Bard hits a group of enemies with Faerie Fire, which increases damage output against those enemies by around 25%? But for the Bard, that extra damage wouldn't have occurred.

Off topic ... How do you sneak attack twice per round when Hasted? Haste adds another action to your turn when cast on you. You can only sneak attack once per turn.

[Rukelnikov]

Off topic ... How do you sneak attack twice per round when Hasted? Haste adds another action to your turn when cast on you. You can only sneak attack once per turn.

Haste Action: Attack, apply sneak
Action: Ready an attack in someone elses turn, since its a different turn it also applies sneak

[darknite]

Haste Action: Attack, apply sneak
Action: Ready an attack in someone elses turn, since its a different turn it also applies sneak

Ah! That works!

[Hail Tempus]

Off topic ... How do you sneak attack twice per round when Hasted? Haste adds another action to your turn when cast on you. You can only sneak attack once per turn.

You use the Haste action to take the attack action on your turn. You then use your regular action to ready an action to, say, attack the Fire Giant as soon as the party's fighter finishes his attack on the Fire Giant. If the conditions for Sneak Attack are met in both cases, the Rogue gets to Sneak Attack twice in a round.

You can sneak attack only once per turn, but you can sneak attack more than once per round.

In fact, there's probably a way to sneak attack three times during a round- sneak attack as a reaction before your turn, sneak attack as an action on your turn, and then sneak attack as a reaction after your turn ends (since reactions recharge at the beginning of your turn). I'm not 100% sure that works, though.

[Rukelnikov]

You use the Haste action to take the attack action on your turn. You then use your regular action to ready an action to, say, attack the Fire Giant as soon as the party's fighter finishes his attack on the Fire Giant. If the conditions for Sneak Attack are met in both cases, the Rogue gets to Sneak Attack twice in a round.

You can sneak attack only once per turn, but you can sneak attack more than once per round.

In fact, there's probably a way to sneak attack three times during a round- sneak attack as a reaction before your turn, sneak attack as an action on your turn, and then sneak attack as a reaction after your turn ends (since reactions recharge at the beginning of your turn). I'm not 100% sure that works, though.

Using that, a high level Scout could even SA 4 times in a round, since they get to SA a second time in their turn as a BA.

There also the Cavalier's ulti, which allows for unlimited Attacks of Opportunity, but you'd be reduced to a 1d6 SA.

[samcifer]

I do this, and also count all damage dealt to an enemy made vulnerable or helpless through fear or similar effects as mine.

This makes me want to make an egotistical bard who is super full of themselves, like the character Zap Branigan from Futurama or Lucy Liu's character from Ally McBeal. Half-elf would be a really good race for this. I could do them as a stuck-up noble.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

This makes me want to make an egotistical bard who is super full of themselves, like the character Zap Branigan from Futurama or Lucy Liu's character from Ally McBeal. Half-elf would be a really good race for this. I could do them as a stuck-up noble.

A buddy of mine played a character based on Groose from Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword in a campaign using a half-elf bard as the base. Any time he successfully hit, charmed or incapacitated someone, he would remind us that "the Groose is on the loose". It was super obnoxious, in a fun way.

[MaxWilson]

Using that, a high level Scout could even SA 4 times in a round, since they get to SA a second time in their turn as a BA.

There also the Cavalier's ulti, which allows for unlimited Attacks of Opportunity, but you'd be reduced to a 1d6 SA.

In theory, an Arcane Trickster could use a scroll of Shapechange to become a Marilith to get arbitrarily many 10d6 Sneak Attacks per turn... but that's not exactly cost-effective.

[Phoenix042]

they are not very weak (plenty of folks before me gave examples of what they can do), but they definitely are lacking in the damage department. If combat is the main focus of your campaign, I don't wanna sell you the bard, to be honest. Even if you would like a support / heal / controll character and don't mind damage too much, I'd rather recommend a cleric (with heavy armor and shield) or Druid (shepard is great for that). Let's be fair: a Bard is really, really good with skills and had very nice utility spells, the trade off is combat abilities. If you don't use the former in your game, there's no compensation for the relative weak latter, and it simply isn't a great class for your game.

This is hilarious.

Bards are one of the best designed and most powerful combat classes in the game.

Did the fighter just get targeted with hold person at the start of the fight? Luckily, you have counterspell and jack of all trades. You just got to spend a reaction to make four greatsword attacks that each do roughly (2d6 + 15) damage. If all four attacks hit, you just dealt 88 damage with your reaction and a third level spell.

Did the party rogue just miss with his sneak attack? You got to spend a bonus action three minutes before the fight started that lets you hit with a sneak attack now (no action required) for 1d8 + 5 + 4d6 damage. You used a bonus action before the fight, when you couldn't even see the enemy and they didn't even know you existed, to deal roughly 23.5 damage to them.

Did the party paladin just miss by a little bit with his big swing, and now he can't smite? You get to smite now, no action required, because you spent a bonus action 2 minutes ago. And you get to use his GWF fighting style, and his strength score, and you can even spend one of his 2nd level spell slots to do an extra 4d8 radiant damage to that vampire on top of your big flashy Glaive strike, so you get to deal 1d10 + 5 + 4d8 (around 28.5) damage with a bonus action you used before the fight even started).

It's not even your freaking turn yet, and you've just done something like 140 damage with a reaction, a 3rd level slot, and two bardic inspirations you threw down before the fight started.


Bards deal insane damage. They're almost by definition the strongest heavy hitters in any party; they get to wield the other party members like weapons, complete with all of the other player character's stats and features.

[Rukelnikov]

In theory, an Arcane Trickster could use a scroll of Shapechange to become a Marilith to get arbitrarily many 10d6 Sneak Attacks per turn... but that's not exactly cost-effective.

Yeah, Marilith is a great shape.

[LibraryOgre]

Bards deal insane damage. They're almost by definition the strongest heavy hitters in any party; they get to wield the other party members like weapons, complete with all of the other player character's stats and features.

This is entirely different from how Athasian half-giants wield party members as weapons. Half-giant bards might be able to triple-wield party members. :smallbiggrin:

[samcifer]

This is entirely different from how Athasian half-giants wield party members as weapons. Half-giant bards might be able to triple-wield party members. :smallbiggrin:

This reminds me of the 2-handed dual-wielding Goblin Whacker weapon I created. It's composed of a goblin tied lengthwise to a wooden pole the player holds in both hands and in each hand the goblin is holding a smaller goblin tied lengthwise on a stick. When you swing the weapon, you have to roll an additional 2d20 to hit. Each hit is a d6 + modifier in bludgeoning damage.

[Hail Tempus]

D&D is a team sport. And character classes like Bards are the teammate that gets a lot of assists, rather than scoring goals.

[Kurt Kurageous]

...they get to wield the other party members like weapons, complete with all of the other player character's stats and features.

I build my current bard strictly as an assist machine to the rogue assassin with sharpshooter to make sure that first -5 +10 for crit hits. The bard is figuratively the puppet master. And in my case, instead of instruments, he uses puppets and spoken word.

[samcifer]

I build my current bard strictly as an assist machine to the rogue assassin with sharpshooter to make sure that first -5 +10 for crit hits. The bard is figuratively the puppet master. And in my case, instead of instruments, he uses puppets and spoken word.

Walter Koeing watching William Shatner sing: "How can you do a spoken word version of a rap song?"

Melvar: "He found a way."

[xroads]

I have never seen a bard do this and it's hard to imagine that one ever could. Vicious Mockery has pathetic damage and targets a strong save. [Kill a dragon with vicious mockery] Even ignoring legendary resistance, a 20th level bard with Cha 20 would have to cast Vicious Mockery 25 times in a row to deal the 178 HP of damage needed to kill even a Young Red Dragon, and it would take 48 castings to kill an Adult Red Dragon. Long before that happens, the dragon will have killed and eaten the bard.


Done it. Granted, the dragon was tethered by a pair of magical chains. It was young. My bard was the only would who could do any damage to it (because of positioning). And I had also cast heat metal on the magical chains binding it. So the DM hand waved it to speed the story up (and because killing it with vicious mockery was a fun idea).

But a non-dice rolled killing is still a killing! :biggrin:

[samcifer]

Gah! So I'd be starting off at lv. 8 or higher and will be a half-elf with 2 extra skills and maxed out Charisma and I know that Fireball would be one of the spells I'd take at Lore Bard lv. 6, but I can't decide on a second spell to take. I'm leaning towards a damaging or defensive spell and I know I do poorly as a player when it comes to illusion or enchantment spells, but beyond that I have so many possibilities that I can't decide. Any suggestions, folks? To help you help me pick, I'll most likely be casting from range and survival is very important since foes in battle tend to have high accuracy and high damage. It's been a variety of supernatural and undead creatures in the campaign from undead to werewolves to halfling mobsters to an incubus and some very powerful fey.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Spiritual weapon? That'll give you something to do with your bonus actions if you're primarily going to be using inspiration for Cutting Words. Counterspell is just great to have available if you need it, even if it rarely comes up. You could also look at spirit guardians or aura of vitality. Haste and slow are great but you have so many concentration spells that they might step on each other.

Edit: I know I'm a broken record here, but really try to make the enchantment stuff work for you. Fear and enemies abound can instantly win battles for you. The downside of enemies abound is that they get saves if they take damage. Or in other worse, it's a spell that you target the biggest dumbest enemy beatstick with, and every time he gets a save against your spell it's because one of his allies wasted their action doing damage to him for you. Oh, and it's got a pretty good chance of being his worst save. Setting a hill giant loose on a bunch of orcs is fantastic.

[OutOfThyme]

Counterspell is usually my number 1 pick. Your Jack of All Trades class feature makes you the 2nd best user of counterspell, behind an Abjuration Wizard. It's saved my party in a lot of situations, and can help you make an escape when you absolutely need to.

Revivify is another option, mostly because having access to resurrection at that level is useful.

As mentioned, spirit guardians is a solid option, since it both slows down enemies in its area, and does damage each round. You have a lot of concentration effects as a Bard, though, so there's a bit of opportunity cost.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

He did say he's had a lot of undead, so that might make the concentration options more appealing. Can't cast fear on a mummy.

[samcifer]

Spiritual weapon? That'll give you something to do with your bonus actions if you're primarily going to be using inspiration for Cutting Words.

I like the idea of that. It'd up my dpr by giving me a 3rd attack per turn if I use it with Eldritch Blast (via my 2 levels of hexblade for EB + Agonizing Blast). I know it's not the best spell to take, but I used it before on my hexblade/favored soul sorc and enjoyed using it by making a sassy black woman I called 'Big Mama' who would slap my enemies. This time, however, since I'd play the character as an egotist, I'd go the narcissistic route and make it take the shape of a perfect Adonis-like version of the bard himself. :D

[BarneyBent]

I like the idea of that. It'd up my dpr by giving me a 3rd attack per turn if I use it with Eldritch Blast (via my 2 levels of hexblade for EB + Agonizing Blast). I know it's not the best spell to take, but I used it before on my hexblade/favored soul sorc and enjoyed using it by making a sassy black woman I called 'Big Mama' who would slap my enemies. This time, however, since I'd play the character as an egotist, I'd go the narcissistic route and make it take the shape of a perfect Adonis-like version of the bard himself. :D

Spiritual weapon is one of the best spells in the game, at least on characters without strong bonus action competition. It’s a pretty good choice.

[MaxWilson]

Spiritual weapon is one of the best spells in the game, at least on characters without strong bonus action competition. It’s a pretty good choice.

Bards have a strong bonus action though already: inspiration.

I'd skip Fireball in favor of Synaptic Static. For magical secrets, Aura of Vitality (or Healing Spirit) and Conjure Animals and very strong picks. Counterspell, Web, and Revivify are tempting too, depending on what the rest of your party is like.

[Crgaston]

Command seems like a strong and thematic choice. It disrupts an enemy's action economy and causes them to waste their turn, plus some other effect, which can include disarming themselves, going prone to give Advantage on melee attacks against them, or fleeing, thus drawing Attacks of Opportunity.

It being 1st level means you'll be able to use it often.

It also scales well, giving a target per slot level. This is where it proves its worth in comparison to Dissonant Whispers. At 1st level, DW has the advantage of doing solid damage in addition to forced movement/potentially drawing AoO's, but upcast it's still only single target.

[BarneyBent]

Bards have a strong bonus action though already: inspiration.

I'd skip Fireball in favor of Synaptic Static. For magical secrets, Aura of Vitality (or Healing Spirit) and Conjure Animals and very strong picks. Counterspell, Web, and Revivify are tempting too, depending on what the rest of your party is like.

I’d argue that in combat the best use of Bardic Inspiration dice for a Lore Bard is Cutting Words, not granting inspiration, and that’s competes with reactions instead. Granting inspiration is still useful, but that can be done before combat begins or in non-combat settings, so again, not competing for bonus actions.

[samcifer]

I’d argue that in combat the best use of Bardic Inspiration dice for a Lore Bard is Cutting Words, not granting inspiration, and that’s competes with reactions instead. Granting inspiration is still useful, but that can be done before combat begins or in non-combat settings, so again, not competing for bonus actions.

I agree that Cutting Words would be better. In one battle about 3 weeks ago, I used Reckless Attack on my Barbarian from 10ft away thanks to the reach of my glaive, then retreated. The boss chased after me and did 76 damage to me (38 after my resistance) in retaliation for attacking recklessly during it's next turn. Cutting Words wouldn't help a lot against a nova turn like that, but every little bit of reduction helps, right?

[Crgaston]

I agree that Cutting Words would be better. In one battle about 3 weeks ago, I used Reckless Attack on my Barbarian from 10ft away thanks to the reach of my glaive, then retreated. The boss chased after me and did 76 damage to me (38 after my resistance) in retaliation for attacking recklessly during it's next turn. Cutting Words wouldn't help a lot against a nova turn like that, but every little bit of reduction helps, right?
If it had been used on the attack roll and turned a hit into a miss, it would have helped quite a bit.

[Agent-KI7KO]

So everyone mentions Hexblade 2/Lore 6, but have you guys heard of the hilarity that is Archfey 1/Glamour 6?

Charm a group of enemies and command them (one by one).

[samcifer]

If it had been used on the attack roll and turned a hit into a miss, it would have helped quite a bit.

I think it was 2 different attacks during the same turn that the boss used and the damage was all combined to make it easier to calculate and deduct from my hp.

[Skylivedk]

So everyone mentions Hexblade 2/Lore 6, but have you guys heard of the hilarity that is Archfey 1/Glamour 6?

Charm a group of enemies and command them (one by one).

Unfortunately, not good in a campaign with a lot of undead. Otherwise, a super fun controller

[sophontteks]

Unfortunately, not good in a campaign with a lot of undead. Otherwise, a super fun controller
Undead. Not immune to Charm. With some exceptions ofc. Pity that command itself won't work, but at least its not a lost cause.

[Willie the Duck]

I’d argue that in combat the best use of Bardic Inspiration dice for a Lore Bard is Cutting Words, not granting inspiration, and that’s competes with reactions instead. Granting inspiration is still useful, but that can be done before combat begins or in non-combat settings, so again, not competing for bonus actions.

It really depends on the rest of your build. Bonus actions are that great non-constant in that they exactly as precious as you arrange them to be. If you have nothing else to spend your bonus actions on, then it is a trivial cost.

[Haydensan]

@OP

I'm not sure how much of this has been said through the thread as I'm mid commute so don't have time to read it all.

I think part of this is what you value in a caster, the harder the encounters get the less a caster should be focusing on blasting imo. Martials do much more work with this, I think the real value of a caster (bards especially) comes from controlling the flow of the fights.

I'd give treantmonks guide to god wizards a read, wizard based guide but the views are still the same

[Shuruke]

Not sure what kind of combat you like but

Fighter 4 battle master and valor bard is lots of fun

Distracting strike along with the valor bard inspiration

Or with a little effort
Bardic inspire before a fight , then distracting strike, commanding strike (if u have extra attack)
This with a rogue or a pally is really nice



I also love lore bards for how flexible they are with what you wanna do


I really enjoy lore bard mastermind

Use bonus actions for help
Use reactions for cutting words
Use action for bow and sneak attack
Or casting supportive spells

Elemental weapon is great to put on fighter pre action surge

Crusaders mantle - nice party buff if against undead or other vulnerable parties

You also have the supportive spells of haste and enhance ability

Enhance ability is nice for granting advantage to a party member while helping another



At level 6 my general 2 go to spells for the magical secrets are
Enlarge/reduce. Having both a buff or debuff in one is great, put on fighter pre action surge or on a barb so they dont have to reckless

Lightning arrow, I like this because sharpshooter and sneak attack as lightning damage is absolutely wonderful. Note only primary target takes sneak attack and sharp shooter

[BarneyBent]

It really depends on the rest of your build. Bonus actions are that great non-constant in that they exactly as precious as you arrange them to be. If you have nothing else to spend your bonus actions on, then it is a trivial cost.

Yeah true. I guess my point is that when you’ve got Spiritual Weapon and a resource that can be spent just as effectively if not moreso with a reaction instead of a bonus action, then worrying about bonus action competition isn’t such a big deal.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Bards have a strong bonus action though already: inspiration.

I'd skip Fireball in favor of Synaptic Static. For magical secrets, Aura of Vitality (or Healing Spirit) and Conjure Animals and very strong picks. Counterspell, Web, and Revivify are tempting too, depending on what the rest of your party is like.

I love synaptic static but he won't have it for a while, and there are lots of other things to do with those level 5 slots.

The other bonus action we forgot for bards is healing word; that might affect the decision to take spiritual weapon.

[MaxWilson]

Yeah true. I guess my point is that when you’ve got Spiritual Weapon and a resource that can be spent just as effectively if not moreso with a reaction instead of a bonus action, then worrying about bonus action competition isn’t such a big deal.

Cutting Words doesn't compete per se with Bardic Inspiration. You can use both in the same round and they do different things. Bardic Inspiration is insurance against missed GWM/Sharpshooter attacks and failed concentration saves on important spells (Wall of Force, Conjure Animals, etc.). Cutting Words boosts grapples and negates powerful enemy attacks. They're both valuable, so Spiritual Weapon is competing with another strong bonus action.

Bardic Inspiration has a short-enough duration (10 minutes) that IMO handing it out pre-combat is usually a waste unless you know you're going into a super-tough fight.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Cutting Words doesn't compete per se with Bardic Inspiration. You can use both in the same round and they do different things. Bardic Inspiration is insurance against missed GWM/Sharpshooter attacks and failed concentration saves on important spells (Wall of Force, Conjure Animals, etc.). Cutting Words boosts grapples and negates powerful enemy attacks. They're both valuable, so Spiritual Weapon is competing with another strong bonus action.

Bardic Inspiration has a short-enough duration (10 minutes) that IMO handing it out pre-combat is usually a waste unless you know you're going into a super-tough fight.
Since Bards usually have a high-ish Dex and access to Expertise, they can make a fantastic scouting partner for a Rogue with just BI and their utility spells. If you make it a habit, it's not hard to start your average combat with one on your heaviest hitter for insurance since you'll usually be in a position to see the fight coming.

If you do plan to do that, though, I'd seriously consider Observant and/or Alert. Like a Rogue, things can go bad very fast. Unlike a Rogue, you don't have Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, or Cunning Action for when you get caught mid-infiltration.

[MaxWilson]

Since Bards usually have a high-ish Dex and access to Expertise, they can make a fantastic scouting partner for a Rogue with just BI and their utility spells. If you make it a habit, it's not hard to start your average combat with one on your heaviest hitter for insurance since you'll usually be in a position to see the fight coming.

If you do plan to do that, though, I'd seriously consider Observant and/or Alert. Like a Rogue, things can go bad very fast. Unlike a Rogue, you don't have Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, or Cunning Action for when you get caught mid-infiltration.

(1) I absolutely agree that scouting partners are vital. I've seen too many Lore Bards caught by surprise when sneaking around on their own; it's valuable to to have a Shadow Monk buddy or someone who can pick you up when you're stunned and teleport you to safety (or just carry you if the DM rules Shadow Step doesn't work on creatures you're carrying, but in the cases I witnessed I was the DM and I didn't rule that way).

(2) Even if you get caught mid-infiltration, you can still Hide. Cunning Action (Hide) is nice if you want to do something offensive and also Hide, but even just regular Action: Hide works well when you've got +10ish to Stealth from Expertise.

(3) However, if scouting is working okay, then IME BI tends to be overkill because you'll clean the bad guys' clocks anyway unless it's a non-average (uber-deadly) encounter. No harm in handing them out I guess but it tends not to happen IME because it just evaporates after 10 minutes without ever being used. BI is mostly useful when things turn out to be non-average combats, unexpectedly difficult for various reasons including scouting failure. Maybe this is a playstyle thing that would work differently at other tables, and if so maybe Spiritual Weapon would be a more attractive pick at those tables.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Gah! So I'd be starting off at lv. 8 or higher and will be a half-elf with 2 extra skills and maxed out Charisma and I know that Fireball would be one of the spells I'd take at Lore Bard lv. 6, but I can't decide on a second spell to take. I'm leaning towards a damaging or defensive spell and I know I do poorly as a player when it comes to illusion or enchantment spells, but beyond that I have so many possibilities that I can't decide. Any suggestions, folks? To help you help me pick, I'll most likely be casting from range and survival is very important since foes in battle tend to have high accuracy and high damage. It's been a variety of supernatural and undead creatures in the campaign from undead to werewolves to halfling mobsters to an incubus and some very powerful fey.

This will probably be a very unpopular (and possibly non-optimal pick), but I chose Misty Step and Fly for magical secrets on a sharpshooting Valor bard.

Like you, I found myself in a pretty hard-hitting campaign, where even my good Dex, medium armor and shield weren't really cutting it. I was highly mobile, and liked to keep out of the front line (to keep my BC concentration spells up). But sometimes it's almost impossible to stay out of the fray, and you can get cornered and pinned down by a martial or rough monster. Misty Step saved my butt a number of times, after I picked it up. Fly was great to have and helped the party on occasion

, but it was probably sub-optimal. In a DM-friendly game, Conjure Animals can be a better way to get a flying speed (giant eagles or whatever), or maybe Greater Find Steed. I might do that Fly pick a bit differently next time, but Misty Step I never regretted.

[samcifer]

This will probably be a very unpopular (and possibly non-optimal pick), but I chose Misty Step and Fly for magical secrets on a sharpshooting Valor bard.

Like you, I found myself in a pretty hard-hitting campaign, where even my good Dex, medium armor and shield weren't really cutting it. I was highly mobile, and liked to keep out of the front line (to keep my BC concentration spells up). But sometimes it's almost impossible to stay out of the fray, and you can get cornered and pinned down by a martial or rough monster. Misty Step saved my butt a number of times, after I picked it up. Fly was great to have and helped the party on occasion

, but it was probably sub-optimal. In a DM-friendly game, Conjure Animals can be a better way to get a flying speed (giant eagles or whatever), or maybe Greater Find Steed. I might do that Fly pick a bit differently next time, but Misty Step I never regretted.

Yeah, I'm almost tempted to take Eldritch Spear for 300ft reach on EB and just snipe from as far away as I can as most battles have taken place outdoors just to avoid being attacked. 19 AC with 67 HP just doesn't seem enough in this campaign. I'm tempted to take Toughness at Bard 8 just to give myself a chance of not being one-shot-ed.

[Skylivedk]

Yeah, I'm almost tempted to take Eldritch Spear for 300ft reach on EB and just snipe from as far away as I can as most battles have taken place outdoors just to avoid being attacked. 19 AC with 67 HP just doesn't seem enough in this campaign. I'm tempted to take Toughness at Bard 8 just to give myself a chance of not being one-shot-ed.


Rather take Inspiring Leader. It's much much better; both for you and for your team mates.

[MaxWilson]

Rather take Inspiring Leader. It's much much better; both for you and for your team mates.

They don't compete for the same resource (invocation vs. feat) so you could take both.

Edit: oh! You meant Inspiring Leader instead of Tough. Sorry, I get it now. Completely agree, Inspiring Leader >> Tough.

[samcifer]

It really depends on the rest of your build. Bonus actions are that great non-constant in that they exactly as precious as you arrange them to be. If you have nothing else to spend your bonus actions on, then it is a trivial cost.

As for the build, here's what the character would look like. We're using a set stat-block for our stats of 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, & 10. We are allowed to start with one +1 item, so I think I'll go with +1 half-plate armor and a normal shield as well as a longsword as I'll be starting off as a Hexblade:

STR: 10, DEX: 16, CON: 16, INT: 10, WIS: 13, CHA: 20

Initiative: 4, AC 20, Prof Bonus: +3 Speed: 30 HP: 67, Background: Urban Bonty Hunter (for more social skills)

Leveling: Lvls 1 and 2: Hexblade, lvels 3 - 8: Lpre Bard.

Eldritch Evocations: Agonizing Blast and Eldritch Spear (for added range as many fights have been outdoors and we've had a few foes try to flee on us. (might re-train to Improved Pact Weapon for a boost to accuracy if I get to warlock 3 and take Pact of the blade, or switch to Lance of Lethargy to make it harder for foes to reach me)

Skill Prof: Athletics, Stealth, Arcana, Investigation, Insight, Perception, Survival, Deception *double prof), Intimidation, Persuasion (double prof).

Gear: +1 half-plate armor, Shield, Longsword (hexblade effect to use charisma instead of strength)

Warlock: 2 cantrips: Eldritch Blast and Booming Blade (in case I have to be in melee)
2 Lv. 1 spell slots, 3 spells known: Hex, Shield, and Arms of Hadar

Bard: 3 cantrips: Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation and Vicious Mockery

4 lv. 1 spell slots, 3 each of lv. 2 and 3 spell slots:
Spells known: Detect Magic, Disguise Self, Dissonant Whispers, Faerie Fire, Healing Word, Heat Metal, Lesser Restoration, Phantasmal Force, Shatter; Additional Magic Secrets: Spiritual Weapon and Fireball.

I know it's not the most optimal spell list, but these are spells I understand the workings of (mostly) and it would let me do more damage. I'd mostly be attacking with EB from range to minimize the risk of taking damage and using SW for a third attack per turn.

[Aett_Thorn]

Sam, I feel like you just want to do direct damage, and can’t find the value in doing anything else with spells and whatnot. And that’s fine, but I think that you’re going to be underwhelmed by the Bard still if you’re just going to try to find ways to do damage despite the fact that you’re a Bard.

Embrace the force multiplier role. Learn to see how valuable it is in the right circumstances. If you’re just going to keep trying to play the same role whatever your class is, I think that you’re going to have problems keeping an interest long-term.

[samcifer]

Sam, I feel like you just want to do direct damage, and can’t find the value in doing anything else with spells and whatnot. And that’s fine, but I think that you’re going to be underwhelmed by the Bard still if you’re just going to try to find ways to do damage despite the fact that you’re a Bard.

Embrace the force multiplier role. Learn to see how valuable it is in the right circumstances. If you’re just going to keep trying to play the same role whatever your class is, I think that you’re going to have problems keeping an interest long-term.

I don't expect to be doing tons of damage. I just want to be able to do some damage while using the bard's out-of-combat abilities with his vast array of skills so I'm not waiting for the next battle like I am with my current character (a barb/fighter). I might swap in another social spell or two, but my real limitation is in not being creative enough to make good use of the 'head game' spells. I also don't really like save-or-suck spells as the monsters tend to have high stats, so I want to be doing at least a little damage per turn rather than casting a spell only to have the foes save on their saving throws and there's no result on a save. It feels like a complete waste of time to me to go that route. I also tend to have bad luck with those kind of spells as a player, so I'd rather do have damage on a save whenever possible or have a spell that lets you try again with the same spell usage on a following turn.

[samcifer]

Well, I looked over my chosen bard spells and saw there were too many ones that needed concentration, so I re-worked it some:

L1: Detect Magic, Disguise Self, Dissonant Whispers, Faerie Fire, Healing Word, AM Secrets: Spiritual Weapon

L2: Heat Metal, Lesser Restoration, Shatter, Zone of Truth

L3: AM Secrets: Fireball

[holywhippet]

My last character was a bard. The main problem I found was my really bad AC. If something decided to target me in combat with an attack I was pretty much always going to get hit. Unless you spend feats, pick certain races or multiclass there isn't really a good solution. The second problem was offensive power. Heat metal was good for single targets, while it lasted - my DM grew to hate that spell and started using enemies that it wouldn't work against. Shatter isn't a bad spell, but scales poorly compared to fireball. Magical secrets is pretty sweet, but you only get two spells each time and it is hard to cover all bases. I did take conjure animals with it which was pretty good, until my DM wanted me to swap it out since managing the extra creatures in combat was annoying him.

[samcifer]

My last character was a bard. The main problem I found was my really bad AC. If something decided to target me in combat with an attack I was pretty much always going to get hit. Unless you spend feats, pick certain races or multiclass there isn't really a good solution. The second problem was offensive power. Heat metal was good for single targets, while it lasted - my DM grew to hate that spell and started using enemies that it wouldn't work against. Shatter isn't a bad spell, but scales poorly compared to fireball. Magical secrets is pretty sweet, but you only get two spells each time and it is hard to cover all bases. I did take conjure animals with it which was pretty good, until my DM wanted me to swap it out since managing the extra creatures in combat was annoying him.

In my group the summoner controls the conjured animals. Your dm sound(s/ed) like a bit of a jerk to me.

[Potato_Priest]

Well, I looked over my chosen bard spells and saw there were too many ones that needed concentration, so I re-worked it some:

L1: Detect Magic, Disguise Self, Dissonant Whispers, Faerie Fire, Healing Word, AM Secrets: Spiritual Weapon

L2: Heat Metal, Lesser Restoration, Shatter, Zone of Truth

L3: AM Secrets: Fireball

Isn’t spiritual weapon a level 2 spell?

[samcifer]

Isn’t spiritual weapon a level 2 spell?

Ah, yeah, it is. Thanks for catching that.

[holywhippet]

In my group the summoner controls the conjured animals. Your dm sound(s/ed) like a bit of a jerk to me.

I was in control of them, but the DM didn't like all the extra creatures in the initiative order.

[samcifer]

I was in control of them, but the DM didn't like all the extra creatures in the initiative order.

Well we also had the creatures all take their turn together right after the summoner did so initiative wasn't broken up too much.

[Nhym]

Bards can do basically everything. Their draw is that they have so much potential.

[samcifer]

Actually, looking over the spell list for bards, Bane might combo well with Cutting Words.

[MaxWilson]

Actually, looking over the spell list for bards, Bane might combo well with Cutting Words.

Maybe you already know this, but remember that Cutting Words cannot help you land Bane--Cutting Words doesn't affect saves.

[samcifer]

Maybe you already know this, but remember that Cutting Words cannot help you land Bane--Cutting Words doesn't affect saves.

I mean after Bane takes effect, allowing me to reduce an enemy attack or damage roll by 1d4 + 1d8.

[MaxWilson]

I mean after Bane takes effect, allowing me to reduce an enemy attack or damage roll by 1d4 + 1d8.

If protecting against enemy attacks is your goal, you'll probably get more bang for your buck from imposing disadvantage (Blindness/Deafness or Web) rather than imposing -1d4, because disadvantage tends to leave you closer to the breakpoint where Cutting Words will turn success into failure. But, Bane is a valid choice too.

[samcifer]

If protecting against enemy attacks is your goal, you'll probably get more bang for your buck from imposing disadvantage (Blindness/Deafness or Web) rather than imposing -1d4, because disadvantage tends to leave you closer to the breakpoint where Cutting Words will turn success into failure. But, Bane is a valid choice too.

I'd never use Blindness/Deafness. It's a CON save, which (to my understanding) is something many monsters you'd want/need to handicap are strong in. It seems far too unlikely to take hold whereas Bane is a CHA save which only demons and celestials are really good at (again as I understand it).

[MaxWilson]

I'd never use Blindness/Deafness. It's a CON save, which (to my understanding) is something many monsters you'd want/need to handicap are strong in. It seems far too unlikely to take hold whereas Bane is a CHA save which only demons and celestials are really good at (again as I understand it).

Whoever told you that only demons and celestials have good Cha saves is wrong. Cha is a very common saving throw proficiency for big monsters, and monsters with strong Con saves often have strong Cha saves too, so against a big monsters like an Efreet, Beholder, or Adult Red Dragon both Bane and Blindness/Deafness are inferior to Web (though Web has other potential issues against flying or teleporting enemies). For example, an Adult Red Dragon saves at +11 vs. Cha spells, and +13 vs. Con spells, but only +6 vs. Dex spells. An Efreet is +7 vs. Cha, +7 vs. Con, +1 vs. Dex. A Beholder saves at +8 vs. Cha, +4 vs. Con, +2 vs. Dex.

Oddly enough, Pit Fiends don't have Cha save proficiency, so Bane is actually kind of decent against them, if you don't have a better use for your concentration (like Banishment).

[sophontteks]

I'd never use Blindness/Deafness. It's a CON save, which (to my understanding) is something many monsters you'd want/need to handicap are strong in. It seems far too unlikely to take hold whereas Bane is a CHA save which only demons and celestials are really good at (again as I understand it).
Really doesn't matter. There are no other options for CC spells that don't require concentration. No concentration is the selling point, and con is helping to keep it from being completely overpowered.

Bane is a concentration spell.

[MaxWilson]

Really doesn't matter. There are no other options for CC spells that don't require concentration. No concentration is the selling point, and con is helping to keep it from being completely overpowered.

Bane is a concentration spell.

Well, there's Plant Growth, in some situations.

[Crgaston]

Really doesn't matter. There are no other options for CC spells that don't require concentration. No concentration is the selling point, and con is helping to keep it from being completely overpowered.

Bane is a concentration spell.


Well, there's Plant Growth, in some situations.

There is also Synaptic Static, which is on the Bard list. Hit them with Bane first, so they have -1d4 on the Synaptic Static Int save. Then, in addition to the 8d6 Psychic damage, they subtract (1d6+1d4) from each attack roll and Concentration save, 1d6 from each Ability Check, and 1d4 from each Int save to escape the Synaptic Static effect. Which does NOT require concentration.

These are both more Debuff than CC, though.

[samcifer]

There is also Synaptic Static, which is on the Bard list. Hit them with Bane first, so they have -1d4 on the Synaptic Static Int save. Then, in addition to the 8d6 Psychic damage, they subtract (1d6+1d4) from each attack roll and Concentration save, 1d6 from each Ability Check, and 1d4 from each Int save to escape the Synaptic Static effect. Which does NOT require concentration.

These are both more Debuff than CC, though.

Well I'd be starting off at lv. 8 with warlock 2 / bard 6, so a lv. 5 spell is a ways off, assuming we make it that far. Our campaigns tend to only fo about 5 - 7 levels and we started off at lv. 5 this time

[Crgaston]

Well I'd be starting off at lv. 8 with warlock 1 / bard 6, so a lv. 5 spell is a ways off, assuming we make it that far. Our campaigns tend to only fo about 5 - 7 levels and we started off at lv. 5 this time

1+6=7

There's always Bane + Dissonant Whispers, which upcasts pretty well, and the aforementioned Blindness, neither of which requires concentration.

[samcifer]

1+6=7

There's always Bane + Dissonant Whispers, which upcasts pretty well, and the aforementioned Blindness, neither of which requires concentration.

Warlock 2 - I edited it above to match