OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

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[dmc91356]

I'm in love with that likeable worm, that's for sure. Feelings are hard . . .

[Ron Miel]

"Foil your evil squirm"

I don't get it. Is there a double meaning I'm missing?

[Ruck]

Woo-hoo, nice surprise to come to after work this afternoon. Cracked up at Belkar's advice to "feel at him really hard." (Yeah, I'm mashing up two panels there.)

[GAAD]

Oh yeah. Having a 'regular battle' is FAR too much to ask; what would be the point of showing it? Let the zaniness continue!

[Tom Lehmann]

Of *course*, Belkar tries to use his new found empathy and understanding as a weapon...

Why was I surprised?

[Ehcks]

"Foil your evil squirm"

I don't get it. Is there a double meaning I'm missing?

A foil is a type of sword used in fencing, similar to the rapier Elan uses. He's using it as a verb.

[remetagross]

"Foil your evil squirm"

I don't get it. Is there a double meaning I'm missing?

Didn't get it either. Must be that Elan is really reaching hard...also, guys, what does "O.G." stand for?

Likeable Death Worm is amazing one more time. It's a sort or reversed Elan when it comes to pronounce hilariously outlandish sentences in the middle of a fight.

[RaveDave92084]

Belkar at his Golden Best.

I took O.G. You: as original guy you.

[Peelee]

Dang, I'm kinda starting to like Belkar.

[Riftwolf]

Likeable Deathworm continues to be likeable :)

[Pablo360]

Elan knows how to make puns. Nobody ever claimed he knew how to make good puns.

[denthor]

To many jokes.

But the one that got me was high percentage. Still laughing. :smalltongue:

[hroþila]

Didn't get it either. Must be that Elan is really reaching hard...also, guys, what does "O.G." stand for?

Likable Death Worm is amazing one more time. It's a sort or reversed Elan when it comes to pronounce hilariously outlandish sentences in the middle of a fight.
O.G. stands for "Original Gangster" and is a slang term for "original". In this context, "O.G. You" means "Gontor Hammerfell the mortal dwarf as opposed to the vampire spirit".

As for "evil squirm", I took it as a play on "evil scheme". Because worms squirm.

[Rockphed]

So, what is horrid willow actually supposed to be?

[Peelee]

Didn't get it either. Must be that Elan is really reaching hard...also, guys, what does "O.G." stand for?
Original Gangsta.

So, what is horrid willow actually supposed to be?

Horrid Wilting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/horridWilting.htm).

[littlebum2002]

I mean it's not a bad idea. If Durkon would have told the Order in more detail exactly how he overthrew the vampire, it makes sense that the rest of the imprisoned souls could do the same thing.

[Araon]

That was a TERRIBLE pun. Love it. Well done, Elan.

[ti'esar]

I think Elan in the first panel was going for a pun on 'scheme' with "foil your evil squirm." But egads, that's bad.

[DougTheHead]

"Foil your evil squirm"

I don't get it. Is there a double meaning I'm missing?

I think "squirm," which describes the way a worm moves, is supposed to be a pun on "scheme." So because it's a worm, it's an "evil squirm" rather than an "evil scheme."

Like Roy said, Elan's kind of reaching for the pun here.

[hroþila]

Guys, I've seen how this forum puns. Our standards are not that high.

[gkarrish]

I thought "squirm" was a phonetic play on evil "worm," but that's about equally cringe-worthy as if it was a pun on "scheme." I'm going to go with, meh.

[Dion]

Do they have to kill the evil death worm?

Maybe belkar, bloodfeast, and the death worm can team up and ride off into the sequel?

[2D8HP]

I hurt my rib laughing at "lukeworm"

[Ron Miel]

As for "evil squirm", I took it as a play on "evil scheme". Because worms squirm.


I think Elan in the first panel was going for a pun on 'scheme' with "foil your evil squirm." .[/B]


I think "squirm," which describes the way a worm moves, is supposed to be a pun on "scheme.".

Okay, I can see that.

[Iago]

"Foil your evil squirm"

I don't get it. Is there a double meaning I'm missing?

Squirm --> scheme. Kind of a homonym. It is a reach, though.

[Ghosty]

Do they have to kill the evil death worm?

Maybe belkar, bloodfeast, and the death worm can team up and ride off into the sequel?

I love the LDW using basically the same language as Grubwiggler in #980, "Emotions are tricky. You can't really sort out the ones you want from the ones you don't." Further evidence, if we didn't have the SRD, that the worm's not dumb at all.

I'm impressed Elan can hit the LDW's AC.

Really charismatic for a creation of eldritch horror and undead evil, isn't s/he?

[Fyraltari]

Uh, has that worm worked for Grubblewiggler before? The man isn't a necromancer, though.

I mean it's not a bad idea. If Durkon would have told the Order in more detail exactly how he overthrew the vampire, it makes sense that the rest of the imprisoned souls could do the same thing.

Unlikely:

Second, unlike the other vampires, he needed to access those memories right away because he needed to impersonate Durkon. The Exarch is not going to be in as much danger of something like this because nobody cares what spirit is in charge. He can (in theory) just put off even looking at all but the most basic of Gontor's memories until this whole thing is over, and then sip them slowly over years.

Third, I doubt everyone has a single memory that could surprise and shock the vampire spirit like that. Because it's not the speech about "worst days" that does the real work here; that's mostly just Durkon psyching himself up by telling the spirit that they're wrong. No, the workhorse is the memory itself and how it makes the spirit feel. And I just don't think most people have a single ten-minute memory that completely changes the context of their entire life, before and after.

And finally, this would be the sort of thing that would take a very strong will to pull off successfully. Even if you explained this entire procedure in advance, I doubt someone like Haley or Elan could make it work. They just don't have the mental strength. They could show the spirit the memories, but without the unshakable resolve to back it up, the spirit wouldn't be as affected by the emotional content. In purely game terms (which I usually don't like to discuss but this is good to use as an analogy), Durkon is a high-Wisdom, high-Will-save character who possesses an unimpeachable Lawful Good alignment. That makes him unique. He may, in fact, be literally the single strongest willpower character who has ever been vampirized, ever. It's not a thing that usually happens to Lawful Good clerics in their mid-teen levels; Malack would have been much lower level (and not LG) when it happened to him.

The best way I can put this, overall, is that a human needs about half a gallon of water a day, or about 93 gallons over the course of 6 months. But if I poured 93 gallons of water down your throat today, you would die. That is not a significant design flaw in the human body that needs to be addressed! It's just a circumstance that doesn't come up enough for us to spend all of our time worrying about whether or not we are in imminent danger of swallowing 93 gallons. And if someone offered you a drink, you wouldn't think about, "But what if they suddenly whip out a fire hose?" before accepting.

So, is it a thing that could have happened to other vampires? Sure, maybe, once or twice, just as I am sure people have died from drinking 93 gallons of water. Is it common enough for Hel to mention it in her five-minute orientation of the vampire spirit before stuffing it in Durkon's corpse, when she has an entire scheme to explain as well? No. At best, she would have said something like, "Keep an eye on the host spirit, don't let it get control," and the vampire would have said OK. And then still walked into Durkon's trap because it was incapable of connecting the dots on its own beforehand.

(Also, fair warning: I'm not going to get into a back-and-forth on any of these points. If you still don't want to accept that this is a pretty rare set of circumstances, I don't know what else to tell you.)

Especially since this worked because Durkon* didn't know what Durkon was trying to do, but Belkar can't tell Gontor without Gontor* knowing.

EDIT:

Horrid Wilting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/horridWilting.htm).

Wow, Gontor was way nastier thanI thought. That is a mean spell.

[MartianInvader]

Well, there goes my prediction that Durkon would let Belkar think he killed the vampire all on his own.

[Auguries]

Belkar has a pretty good idea actually. Spread the virus of free thought. MWUAHAHA

[Timy]

This last pun made me fell good inside !!

[TaiLiu]

Love the title! I'm guessing it's a reference to the replication crisis in the human sciences.

[One Step Two]

As a DM, I will always empathize with Roy in his desire to have a normal Battle. As a PC, I will never not quip and banter even when fighting, even up to and including Deathworms, likeable or otherwise.
heh, lukeworm, frikken gold man.

[Calmer]

Wait, Durkon is Belkar's "buddy?"

[DaOldeWolf]

Well, seems like Belkar at least stopped him from casting outside.

[Rockphed]

Wait, Durkon is Belkar's "buddy?"

Durkon has always been in Belkar's "not worth killing" column.

[understatement]

God, I love seeing the Order at full snark power. This is hilarious!

And I love how the worm talks back to them while being stabbed.

[Lord Torath]

Great strip, Rich! Thanks!

I'm really loving this Deathworm! SO much personality! And Elan still managed to get a good quip in there!

[Mad Humanist]

I have been tracking references to games in the comic and we got a new one (https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/242487/item/6938114#item6938114).

Also I wonder if the deathworm put skill points into Profession (Psychoanalyst). I can think of reasons why he might.

[Frozenstep]

Here I thought this worm wouldn't have any more room to be likable.

Another horrid wilting interrupted. Will the day come that we see this spell actually work? Hopefully not.

[Crookwise]

On the notion that Durkon's very epiphanic victory over Durkon* can be reproduced if the O.G. Dwarves simply know about it:

I think the point of this strip was, subtly, to demonstrate that it's not as easy as Belkar made it out to be, to take back control.

It took Durkon a lot of thought and soul-searching (appropriate for an imprisoned soul, I guess, even if that's cheesy as heck). And even then, he only pulled it off because he had specific experiences that made it seem like a reasonable exist strategy (typo intentional), leading to nothing short of an epiphany - the kind of thing some people live long and die without ever having.

Granted, the very next thing he did do was die, but, you get my point.

[Ruck]

A foil is a type of sword used in fencing, similar to the rapier Elan uses. He's using it as a verb.

I don't think that was the question; that pun has already been covered.


O.G. stands for "Original Gangster" and is a slang term for "original". In this context, "O.G. You" means "Gontor Hammerfell the mortal dwarf as opposed to the vampire spirit".

As for "evil squirm", I took it as a play on "evil scheme". Because worms squirm.

Yeah, that's how I read it too (as did several other people in this thread, I see). It's a pretty big stretch but nothing else made sense.

[dmc91356]

Something just occurred to me. My D&D days are way behind me, but isn't Horrid Wilting a mage spell? Wouldn't that mean that the vampire cleric that used to be the exarch needed to put some skill points into Use Magic Device or something like that (3.x was never my strongpoint)?

What cleric build has skill points to spare on that? Plus, what cleric build has ENOUGH skill points to spare to be able to cast what I think it an 8th level mage spell? Is my recollection of the mechanics of non-arcane casters using arcane scrolls that bad?

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Do they have to kill the evil death worm?

Second this; summoned creatures don't actually die when they are killed, correct? They just poof back to their home dimension? :smallconfused:

[AvangionQ]

Is that death worm even evil? Just seems it isn't fighting back ...

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Belkar’s heart is in the right place (that feels weird to type) but I don’t think a breakout will be as easy as it was for Durkon.

[Goblin_Priest]

Time for the death worm to kick ass again.

[Goblin_Priest]

Second this; summoned creatures don't actually die when they are killed, correct? They just poof back to their home dimension? :smallconfused:

The worm was called, though, not summoned. Rules on dead outsiders vary per setting, I'm assuming his essence gets reabsorbed by his plane of origin.

[RabidEel]

Something just occurred to me. My D&D days are way behind me, but isn't Horrid Wilting a mage spell? Wouldn't that mean that the vampire cleric that used to be the exarch needed to put some skill points into Use Magic Device or something like that (3.x was never my strongpoint)?

What cleric build has skill points to spare on that? Plus, what cleric build has ENOUGH skill points to spare to be able to cast what I think it an 8th level mage spell? Is my recollection of the mechanics of non-arcane casters using arcane scrolls that bad?

I don't know about UMD, but the linked site says that Horrid Wilting is also a cleric (water domain) spell.

[Riftwolf]

The worm was called, though, not summoned. Rules on dead outsiders vary per setting, I'm assuming his essence gets reabsorbed by his plane of origin.

Was it called? I seem to remember some hoo-ha over HD limits. An alternative theory was 'Gontor opened the gate conveniently next to Hel, she conveniently tossed LDW through, thereby avoiding HD limits'
Somehow I'm doubting LDW will survive this encounter, likeable as it is.

Also had a realisation with what Belkar was attempting. Having learnt the Power of Introspection, he's now trying to wield it like a cudgel.
'Yeah I could stab you... Or I could MAKE YOU PONDER! Eh? Eh? Why isn't it working on you!?'

[Vessyra]

Great strip. I must say, Belkar trying to defeat a vampire using feelings is not something that I ever expected to see. He had such straight face when doing it to! He was actually trying to solve a battle non-violently.

[gatemansgc]

:belkar: "did i ask you, giant death worm?"

LOOOOOOOOOL i love it. the death worm is actually a great character too.

[Ruck]

Wait, Durkon is Belkar's "buddy?"

Huh, I guess he's Neutral now.

But seriously, I suppose if illusory Belkar would refer to Vaarsuvius as "Elf buddy" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0596.html) without V correcting him, actual Belkar referring to Durkon as a buddy after everything they've been through to this point makes sense.

[Reboot]

Why did Rock Priest Guy even have a scroll of Horrid Wilting to begin with? 🤔

Also, did Gontula even attempt to dominate Belkar (who doesn't have his amulet activated)? It's like he's not even trying!

[maxon]

Why did Rock Priest Guy even have a scroll of Horrid Wilting to begin with? 🤔
I guess it could come in handy.

[Yxylu]

Also, did Gontula even attempt to dominate Belkar (who doesn't have his amulet activated)? It's like he's not even trying!

Any face (or other part) he poked through the anti-magic screen would get double-stabbed. He’s safe but ineffective inside the middle chamber.

[dtilque]

Great strip. I must say, Belkar trying to defeat a vampire using feelings is not something that I ever expected to see. He had such straight face when doing it to! He was actually trying to solve a battle non-violently.

The orange barrier prevents a direct attack. Well Belkar could throw a knife, but then he couldn't retrieve it.


Why did Rock Priest Guy even have a scroll of Horrid Wilting to begin with? 🤔

He has whatever scrolls are needed for the plot.


Also, did Gontula even attempt to dominate Belkar (who doesn't have his amulet activated)? It's like he's not even trying!

The orange barrier would also prevent that. Yeah I had the same thought and wondered if the Cloak Clasp had been activated without us seeing its aura. That is, until I remembered about the barrier.

[zimmerwald1915]

Why did Rock Priest Guy even have a scroll of Horrid Wilting to begin with? 🤔

Also, did Gontula even attempt to dominate Belkar (who doesn't have his amulet activated)? It's like he's not even trying!
Domination gaze requires a standard action that Gontor's vampire spent trying to cast its scroll. And it probably also requires line of effect, which would be blocked by the orange barrier.

[Tiiba]

Do we HAVE to kill the death worm? He's too much fun.

[Reboot]

Any face (or other part) he poked through the anti-magic screen would get double-stabbed. He’s safe but ineffective inside the middle chamber.

It's a fair cop.

[zimmerwald1915]

Do we HAVE to kill the death worm? He's too much fun.
No, we don't. The objective was stated in the first panel: clear a path for Durkon and the other dwarves. That can be accomplished any number of ways, only one or which is killing the nightcrawler.

[Reboot]

No, we don't. The objective was stated in the first panel: clear a path for Durkon and the other dwarves. That can be accomplished any number of ways, only one or which is killing the nightcrawler.

True, that's their primary objective. However, their secondary objective is "stay alive", and the evidence is that their chances of doing so would be impaired by any solution that left the GDW aliv--- uh, animate and able to attack them further.

That pretty much narrows down their options to ki--- gah, destroy it; or dump it down the chasm. The latter carries the high probability of dwarfs happening upon it later and being rendered life-impaired.

So, I'm gonna go wi' "yup, it needs ended".

[Riftwolf]

Why did Rock Priest Guy even have a scroll of Horrid Wilting to begin with? 🤔

He's a dwarf. Horrid Wilting does additional damage to plants. Case Closed.

[jwhouk]

This is just levels of awesome. And kudos to Belkar for figuring out that the cleric would have to step out from the barrier to cast anything.

The puns, however... Epic Level Punnage.

[WolvesbaneIII]

I forget what the orange barrier does, but I'm assuming the order can't just barge through it, otherwise belker would just go after the vampire and kill it for mocking his latest strategy. Could someone refresh my memory on what the barriers do? I honestly can't remember, and I'm not able to quickly look for it by sifting through all the comics currently.

I'm not sure anyone can insta vamp another body, but I'm assuming the spell died when roy broke the staff before throwing it at the current HPOH.

Even if another vampire had learned how to do it, I'd consider it poor story telling for durkon to become a vampire again and have the new or recycled spirit reject hel.

Though I do think that perhaps a vampire attending the latest vote could get cold feet and reject hels orders out of self preservation, not out of spite or anything of that nature. Vampires are supposed to be some what self serving abominations after all, and a god asking me to essentially kill myself in a world destroying cataclysm where my spirit is sent to the negative energy realm and supposedly destroyed does not sound ideal for a vampire who's sole perk is that they are immortal unless slain or killed by the sun.

well, its not the sole perk, but you get what I mean.

[Riftwolf]

I forget what the orange barrier does, but I'm assuming the order can't just barge through it, otherwise belker would just go after the vampire and kill it for mocking his latest strategy. Could someone refresh my memory on what the barriers do?.

*dispels ongoing magical effects
*blocks non-dwarves from entering
*blocks line of sight for spells

[Anarion]

I'm enjoying the puzzle of this combat, despite Roy's desire to just have a regular fight, they're going to have to work through all the obstacles here and it's looking interesting.

[Ghosty]

He's a dwarf. Horrid Wilting does additional damage to plants. Case Closed.

Can we get an upvote system? Because this needs to be upvoted.

(Insert Orson Welles furiously clapping gif.)

If the LDW's dwell time on the Prime is eternal, then yeah, it'll have to be killed, I'd think. Can't leave that running around Dwarven towns. You thought the Balrog was bad...

If it's only here for awhile longer, breaking open the ceiling and letting sunlight in should be enough to take care of its threat.

The more powerful a threat is, often times the more intelligent. Intelligent beings usually have a reason for doing something, and if charismatic enough, they might get you to think they have a point. Or at least hesitate before sending it back to Hel.

I like how the Giant has characterized the various Evil entities in his writing. Each different, and all usually very interesting.

[Ornithologist]

This seems like a high water mark for Belkar and emotional maturity. Not a high bar, but still I know plenty of RPG groups that don't get as far as he has.

[ratfox]

So if anybody's also wondering, "White Wolfed" refers to White Wolf, the publishers of the Vampire: The Masquerade RPG.

[Psychronia]

Giant Death Worm understands. You can't just instantly weaponize your emotional catharsis, Belkar. There's a lot of setup that you just can't get off the fly.

[Wanderer]

Horrid Wilting is a great spell. Unless it's being used against you or your allies. Nice job, Belkar. No, really, that was good.

[renovator]

@ratfox - Is it saying the White Wolf were a publishing company (that did Vampire the Masquerade) that were taken over and the heart or soul ripped out of it by sacking the staff?
Or
Is it a reference to Michael Moorcock ?
Either way the joke is brilliant

[GrayGriffin]

Huh, I guess he's Neutral now.

But seriously, I suppose if illusory Belkar would refer to Vaarsuvius as "Elf buddy" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0596.html) without V correcting him, actual Belkar referring to Durkon as a buddy after everything they've been through to this point makes sense.

I mean, that whole speech was meant to be sarcasm about V's methods, plus it's not like V was in the mood to lecture Elan on the finer aspects of writing in-character dialogue.

[Rogar Demonblud]

"White Wolfed" in this case would mean getting vampirized, renovator. Which is the start of a game for VtM.

And Wolvesbane, the vampires already figured out the instant vamp spell, and used repeatedly outside the Thor Temple.

[The Shadow]

Something just occurred to me. My D&D days are way behind me, but isn't Horrid Wilting a mage spell? Wouldn't that mean that the vampire cleric that used to be the exarch needed to put some skill points into Use Magic Device or something like that (3.x was never my strongpoint)?

I've been wondering about that too. Sure, it's a Water domain spell... but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that a cleric of the Creed of Stone probably doesn't get the Water domain.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Or Rich isn't bothering to stress about the minutia of an old rules system any more.

[Aidan]

Got to love Belkar "Feel at him"

[The_Weirdo]

So, what is horrid willow actually supposed to be?

Well, one of the nicknames I use throughout the Internets is "Jayelwillow" (because I look a lot like the eponymous character, Willow, from the film).

And some people here find me quite horrid. :smallbiggrin:

[ijuinkun]

I mean it's not a bad idea. If Durkon would have told the Order in more detail exactly how he overthrew the vampire, it makes sense that the rest of the imprisoned souls could do the same thing.

It was definitely worth the attempt--if Gontor had succeeded at subverting his vampire spirit, then it would have left the vampires without their leader who knew all of the details of their plan (some details which he had not yet revealed to his followers). Even if the odds of success were low, the potential payoff was high and the cost of a failure (as opposed to not even trying it) was low.

Also, Belkar has succeeded in stopping the Exexarch from casting any more spells outside of the barrier, which means that he is out of this part of the battle, though his statement that he has "spells to cast in here" implies that he will be setting up for the next part of the battle, where the dwarves of the Thundershield group will be facing him while the rest of the Order remain outside.

[Emperor Time]

Belkar might be changing for real now instead of just pretending too. Guess his last days are almost over now. And the Death Worm seems pretty understanding when it comes to feelings which is a surprise to be sure.

[Pampukin]

Huh, I guess the creed of stone was worried about water elementals so they gave Gontor that scroll as a precaution.
Its so nice to see the team working toghether.
Just hope bringing squishy Elan melee is a smart move.

[alowe]

Belkar really is on his game. One moment thwarting a rather nasty looking spell while playing the long game and not getting distracted by the current argy bargy. He's the one that's thinking outside the box in this strip.

[Jannoire]

And Wolvesbane, the vampires already figured out the instant vamp spell, and used repeatedly outside the Thor Temple.

Or was it just Durkon? After all, he learned the spell from the staff...


It was definitely worth the attempt--if Gontor had succeeded at subverting his vampire spirit, then it would have left the vampires without their leader who knew all of the details of their plan (some details which he had not yet revealed to his followers). Even if the odds of success were low, the potential payoff was high and the cost of a failure (as opposed to not even trying it) was low.

Wouldn't have stopped the end of the world, as the dominated dwarves would still vote yes on the main proposal... Whatever that will be...

So if the proposal is "Shall Dvalin stop the end of the world?" everything is fine

[Fyraltari]

Or was it just Durkon? After all, he learned the spell from the staff

No, the human vampire said she used a lot of spell slots raising the spawns.

[Blatt]

Should Belkar be tapping his head with his dagger like that in panel seven? I mean, what is it, plus five?!

Health & safety folks! :smalltongue:

[diplomancer]

I cant stop laughing right now.

Teaches me right for looking at the strip when I'm at work

[Wizard_Lizard]

Should Belkar be tapping his head with his dagger like that in panel seven? I mean, what is it, plus five?!

Health & safety folks! :smalltongue:

I know, right!
Rich should put a disclaimer.
Do not try this at home!

[Fyraltari]

Should Belkar be tapping his head with his dagger like that in panel seven? I mean, what is it, plus five?!

Health & safety folks! :smalltongue:

I don’t think Belkar has any kind of dagger discipline.

[Jannoire]

Should Belkar be tapping his head with his dagger like that in panel seven? I mean, what is it, plus five?!

Health & safety folks! :smalltongue:

Maybe that's why he won't live to see old age?
He will not have his next birthday cake because he dies cutting it into pieces?

[Dausuul]

It's a good thing the worm doesn't have eyes (at least not visible ones), or I'd be wondering if it was a clue to the nature of the Monster in the Darkness.

Something just occurred to me. My D&D days are way behind me, but isn't Horrid Wilting a mage spell? Wouldn't that mean that the vampire cleric that used to be the exarch needed to put some skill points into Use Magic Device or something like that (3.x was never my strongpoint)?

I've been wondering about that too. Sure, it's a Water domain spell... but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that a cleric of the Creed of Stone probably doesn't get the Water domain.
It doesn't have to be on the Exarch's spell list. It just has to be on the spell list of the cleric who scribed the scroll. As long as the scroll was made by a cleric, it's a divine scroll usable by clerics.

[D.One]

"I watched you get White Wolfed"

LOL

huge LOL

[JumboWheat01]

Regular fights? What are those? Can they even exist?

[Jannoire]

It doesn't have to be on the Exarch's spell list. It just has to be on the spell list of the cleric who scribed the scroll. As long as the scroll was made by a cleric, it's a divine scroll usable by clerics.

The question is not, how the Ex-Exarch could cast that spell. The question is, why would the Exarch have this scroll with him.

[KorvinStarmast]

Thank you Giant, I loved this strip. Chuckles abounded IRL, and a few people looked up to see what I was laughing about.

"Hey, feelings are tricky things, you can't'-" was a great finisher to Belkar's set up ...


Durkon has always been in Belkar's "not worth killing" column. "He didn't blame me."
Also had a realisation with what Belkar was attempting. Having learnt the Power of Introspection, he's now trying to wield it like a cudgel.
'Yeah I could stab you... Or I could MAKE YOU PONDER! Eh? Eh? Why isn't it working on you!?' Heh, that seems more likely. :smallcool:
:belkar: "did i ask you, giant death worm?" Yeah, the Belkster was on his game in this strip.
:belkar: Dude, are you even trying to have a climactic emotional catharsis?

Health & safety folks! :smalltongue: I believe that's elfin safety, and Belkar's a halfling.
The question is not, how the Ex-Exarch could cast that spell. The question is, why would the Exarch have this scroll with him. Given that they killed a few clerics in the past few days: looting a corpse.

[AutomatedTeller]

I loved the 2 panels in the middle where Belkar and the vamp just stare at each other.

Whole comic is great, really.

[Riftwolf]

The question is not, how the Ex-Exarch could cast that spell. The question is, why would the Exarch have this scroll with him.
Requisite Text!

He's a dwarf. Horrid Wilting does additional damage to plants. Case Closed.

[Bacon Elemental]

The question is not, how the Ex-Exarch could cast that spell. The question is, why would the Exarch have this scroll with him.

Maybe since it's not on his list, it's for covering a weakness in his currently-unknown actual spell-list

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The question is not, how the Ex-Exarch could cast that spell. The question is, why would the Exarch have this scroll with him.

Snow elementals are a bit of a bother sometimes around Zenith Peak. It pays to be prepared.


Maybe since it's not on his list, it's for covering a weakness in his currently-unknown actual spell-list

He is a cleric. His spell list is "everything". However, Gontor was aware he needed all his high-level spell slots devoted to shape stone spells so he could build the Goodsmoot temple. Since random encounters are a thing, some offensive scrolls are hardly that weird.

Grey Wolf

[Malphegor]

I'm enjoying Roy guiding Elan to better punish their foes.

[Sapphire Guard]

Wasn't Gontor part of security for the Godsmoot? Of course he'd have some high end spells on him.

[Jasdoif]

It doesn't have to be on the Exarch's spell list. It just has to be on the spell list of the cleric who scribed the scroll. As long as the scroll was made by a cleric, it's a divine scroll usable by clerics.Activating a scroll still requires the spell to be on the caster's spell list. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm#activatetheSpell)

[Resileaf]

Activating a scroll still requires the spell to be on the caster's spell list. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm#activatetheSpell)

I think it was an awkward way of saying that as long as one cleric can cast it, any cleric can because clerics automatically learn every cleric spells (not counting domain spells).

[Jasdoif]

I think it was an awkward way of saying that as long as one cleric can cast it, any cleric can because clerics automatically learn every cleric spells (not counting domain spells).Horrid wilting is one of those domain spells.

[Peelee]

Obviously Gontor is also a high-level Wizard.

[Jasdoif]

Obviously Gontor is also a high-level Wizard.Or has the Magic domain. Or has a bunch of Use Magic Device ranks. Or maybe all three!

[Peelee]

Or has the Magic domain. Or has a bunch of Use Magic Device ranks.

My new theory is that Gontor is level 15+ in various classes, and is likely the most powerful character to date. Or to just be friends with.

[Basement Cat]

The scary, giant Death Worm seems very balanced and in touch with its emotions. If only everyone was as nicely grounded as this summoned horror of murderous terror. :smalltongue:

[Resileaf]

The scary, giant Death Worm seems very balanced and in touch with its emotions. If only everyone was as nicely grounded as this summoned horror of murderous terror. :smalltongue:

When you're a giant death worm and you know it, it's easy to be zen about everything else.

[D.One]

Or has the Magic domain. Or has a bunch of Use Magic Device ranks. Or maybe all three!

I believe we've already covered Gontor, the Expert who uses darkvisible scrolls/skinwritten scrolls before... :smalltongue:

[Peelee]

When you're a giant death worm and you know it, it's easy to be zen about everything else.

I think I read that on a daily affirmations calendar once....

[Jasdoif]

My new theory is that Gontor is level 15+ in various classes, and is likely the most powerful character to date.Hmm....Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 9 with the Magic domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#magicDomain)....Casts as a level 12 wizard and a level 12 cleric, so lots of slots for stone shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneShape.htm) (which appears on both spell lists); and activates scrolls/staffs as a level 18 wizard, thus doesn't need to make a caster level check for an arcane scroll of gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm). Why, that's almost minimally plausible! Unless "actual wizard levels" is taken to exclude wizard casting advancement from prestige classes; the typical sort of core-book-wording scenario.

[Reboot]

The question is not, how the Ex-Exarch could cast that spell. The question is, why would the Exarch have this scroll with him.

No, that was the question *I* asked. dmc did, indeed, ask how he could cast Horrid Wilting.

(And I will accept Riftwolf's "anti-plant defence" as an answer. Plants' roots can crack stone, after all!)

[Doug Lampert]

Was it called? I seem to remember some hoo-ha over HD limits. An alternative theory was 'Gontor opened the gate conveniently next to Hel, she conveniently tossed LDW through, thereby avoiding HD limits'
Somehow I'm doubting LDW will survive this encounter, likeable as it is.

Also had a realisation with what Belkar was attempting. Having learnt the Power of Introspection, he's now trying to wield it like a cudgel.
'Yeah I could stab you... Or I could MAKE YOU PONDER! Eh? Eh? Why isn't it working on you!?'

The nightcrawler can be controlled by anyone who can open a gate. The spell has a minimum caster level of 17 (in the case of a scroll, this comes from the scroll, a level 1 cleric can use a scroll of gate and uses it at CL 17 or higher). CL 17 will control a 34 HD monster, and the nightcrawler is only 25 HD by default.

Also, even if it is not controlled, but came through the gate on its own or at Hel's orders, it's still physically present rather than a summons.

[Reboot]

Given that they killed a few clerics in the past few days: looting a corpse.
Nope. "This body had a few scrolls on it when it died..." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1158.html)

[Archimad]

Hel: "See? That's how you make worm puns! But no! You had to go with "squirmy death" (see chapter 1158), didn't you?! Bunch of amateurs."

[Quercus_Arbor]

"Foil your evil squirm"

I don't get it. Is there a double meaning I'm missing?

"evil squirm" -> "evil WORM". squirm rhymes with worm.

[Peelee]

Hmm....Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 9 with the Magic domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#magicDomain)....Casts as a level 12 wizard and a level 12 cleric, so lots of slots for stone shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneShape.htm) (which appears on both spell lists); and activates scrolls/staffs as a level 18 wizard, thus doesn't need to make a caster level check for an arcane scroll of gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm). Why, that's almost minimally plausible!
"Minimally plausible"? Hold on there, Banana Moneybags, I can't afford minimally plausible, I'm going for over-the-top ridiculous! Besides, there's already been a notable MT already, and I doubt the Giant has the urge to put in another.

"evil squirm" -> "evil WORM". squirm rhymes with worm.

"Foil your evil worm" doesn't make sense, though. Scheme fits much better.

[Celestia]

I never thought I'd see Belkar trying to win a battle with the power of friendship. He's grown up so much. :')

[Malphegor]

I never thought I'd see Belkar trying to win a battle with the power of friendship. He's grown up so much. :')

To be fair, friendship is always best. Friends at your beck and call mean you have increased firepower. The lone wolf dies, the pack fires multiple lasers at once.

[Ruck]

Though I do think that perhaps a vampire attending the latest vote could get cold feet and reject hels orders out of self preservation, not out of spite or anything of that nature. Vampires are supposed to be some what self serving abominations after all, and a god asking me to essentially kill myself in a world destroying cataclysm where my spirit is sent to the negative energy realm and supposedly destroyed does not sound ideal for a vampire who's sole perk is that they are immortal unless slain or killed by the sun.

well, its not the sole perk, but you get what I mean.

I think it's been pretty clear that the vampires would Gate (or whatever, I don't know D&D mechanics well and I'm not looking up the spells) themselves over to Hel's domain, then perhaps return to the next world to go nuts.

[Peelee]

I think it's been pretty clear that the vampires would Gate (or whatever, I don't know D&D mechanics well and I'm not looking up the spells) themselves over to Hel's domain, then perhaps return to the next world to go nuts.

Not a problem, you have the PYOSRD!

Gate
Conjuration (Creation or Calling)
Level: Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, XP; see text
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: See text
Duration: Instantaneous or concentration (up to 1 round/level); see text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Casting a gate spell has two effects. First, it creates an interdimensional connection between your plane of existence and a plane you specify, allowing travel between those two planes in either direction.

[drazen]

This seems like a high water mark for Belkar and emotional maturity. Not a high bar, but still I know plenty of RPG groups that don't get as far as he has.

I thought it illustrated his ongoing confusion with dealing with emotions he never had before. He described what Durkon did as "emotioning" (not emoting) and I got the sense this was used a bit sarcastically. Also, his suggestion to the Spirit of Original Gontor to simply "Feel at {the vampire}" lacks a lot of nuance.

The vampire was specifically trying to impersonate Durkon, which muddled up the personality a bit. Durkon first had to make the vampire feel something that fit the hole in his heart the vampire was built for, then show him a particular memory about that, and then launch the memory dump -- specifically a lifetime of positive memories of love, affection, and cooperation. I wouldn't even say that Durkon relied on feeling at the vampire really hard, but rather inundated it with a lifetime of memories of a particular feeling - the feeling that made him Durkon in the first place.

Personally I don't care for such Power of Love tropes, but from reading the author's comments on it, there were some particulars in this one, and the Giant suggested it would be difficult to impossible for another trapped soul to pull off the same thing. I am not sure if we got another answer as to what would happen if another spirit spammed all their memory at their host at once.

[Peelee]

I thought it illustrated his ongoing confusion with dealing with emotions he never had before. He described what Durkon did as "emotioning" (not emoting)
Isn't "emoting" typically used to convey hammy overacting?

[zimmerwald1915]

Isn't "emoting" typically used to convey hammy overacting?
Yes, by people who aren't hep to the lingo. "Emoting" is actually feeling an emotion, which feeling comes out in expression. What people usually mean, though, is "indicating," or putting on an emotion by adopting what you imagine to be its behavioral trappings.

[Peelee]

Yes, by people who aren't hep to the lingo.

I'm not even hep to the lingo of "hep to the lingo"!:smalleek:

[Rrmcklin]

Belkar might be changing for real now instead of just pretending too. Guess his last days are almost over now. And the Death Worm seems pretty understanding when it comes to feelings which is a surprise to be sure.

I mean, that's been obvious for awhile now. Belkar is definitely still evil, but he's been beyond just pretending for hundreds of strips at this point.

[Dausuul]

Activating a scroll still requires the spell to be on the caster's spell list. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm#activatetheSpell)

Ah - you are correct. That's what happens when I hurriedly look up rules I haven't used in years while getting ready for work.

So I guess it comes down to whether domain spells are considered to be on the cleric's "class list." Unless there's a definitive ruling someplace I haven't found, I could see the answer being "no," "yes, but only for your own domains," and "yes for all domains." It would take some rules-lawyering to justify "yes for all domains," but the Exarch seems like a rules-lawyery sort of guy, and that trait might well have been inherited from his living self.

The other possibility is that the Exarch's original deity and Hel both have water as one of their domains. But I like the rules lawyer explanation better. :)

[Particle_Man]

I've been wondering about that too. Sure, it's a Water domain spell... but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that a cleric of the Creed of Stone probably doesn't get the Water domain.

And vampire clerics trade in their old domains for two of death, destruction, evil, and trickery.

Maybe Gontor wasn't a cleric per se but some near variant that had more elemental spell lists (so lots of earth spells, perhaps some fire and water ones (horrid wilting!) but air would be an "opposed domain")?

For a stone priest to have the water spell is a muddy issue indeed.

Edit: The Unicorn Clan School for the Shugenja from OA has Horrid Wilting on its list. Wu Jen also have it. Could Gontor have been one of those?

[Canisius]

If it's only here for awhile longer, breaking open the ceiling and letting sunlight in should be enough to take care of its threat.


I'm curious why people assume this is all happening right below the surface. For all we know, they're hundreds of feet underground. Dunno how you shatter a half-mile of earth.

[understatement]

Dwarf matriarch states here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1155.html) that they're pretty close to the surface.

[Peelee]

I'm curious why people assume this is all happening right below the surface. For all we know, they're hundreds of feet underground. Dunno how you shatter a half-mile of earth.

Well, the elder doesn't like being this close to the surface (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1155.html). Also, the door to Thor's temple is, like, all above-groundy and stuff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1093.html).

[Goblin_Priest]

Was it called? I seem to remember some hoo-ha over HD limits. An alternative theory was 'Gontor opened the gate conveniently next to Hel, she conveniently tossed LDW through, thereby avoiding HD limits'
Somehow I'm doubting LDW will survive this encounter, likeable as it is.

Also had a realisation with what Belkar was attempting. Having learnt the Power of Introspection, he's now trying to wield it like a cudgel.
'Yeah I could stab you... Or I could MAKE YOU PONDER! Eh? Eh? Why isn't it working on you!?'


The nightcrawler can be controlled by anyone who can open a gate. The spell has a minimum caster level of 17 (in the case of a scroll, this comes from the scroll, a level 1 cleric can use a scroll of gate and uses it at CL 17 or higher). CL 17 will control a 34 HD monster, and the nightcrawler is only 25 HD by default.

Also, even if it is not controlled, but came through the gate on its own or at Hel's orders, it's still physically present rather than a summons.

Yea, it's not Summon Monster, whatever means was used to get the creature there, it is physically there. If it dies, it dies for real.

[GrayGriffin]

To be fair, friendship is always best. Friends at your beck and call mean you have increased firepower. The lone wolf dies, the pack fires multiple lasers at once.

Honestly, I think having to deal with one laser-wolf is enough danger for anyone.

[WolvesbaneIII]

"White Wolfed" in this case would mean getting vampirized, renovator. Which is the start of a game for VtM.

And Wolvesbane, the vampires already figured out the instant vamp spell, and used repeatedly outside the Thor Temple.

Good to know. I sometimes forget the continuity of this comic, and your correction on this issue is appreciated.



I think it's been pretty clear that the vampires would Gate (or whatever, I don't know D&D mechanics well and I'm not looking up the spells) themselves over to Hel's domain, then perhaps return to the next world to go nuts.

Thats a good point, though the only issue that needs addressing is the possibility of some vampires not having that spell prepared that day, or can't cast magic at all, or the idea that hel being stupidly evil commands the vampires to stand pat on the world, so she can take their dwarf souls as well, and the vampires revolt out of self preservation.

But thats needlessly over complicated and the vampires working together to ensure each others immortal souls wouldn't be much of a stretch.

[Rogar Demonblud]

You might want to do what I did last weekend, and reread the Book 6 strips.

And the vampires don't need Gate, as they can just use Plane Shift.

[F.Harr]

Poor Thad and Roy!

Roy so wants things to make sense.

[Particle_Man]

Roy so wants things to make sense.

I guess Durkon hasn't told Roy that they are self-parodying stick figures yet?

[Jasdoif]

So I guess it comes down to whether domain spells are considered to be on the cleric's "class list." Unless there's a definitive ruling someplace I haven't found, I could see the answer being "no," "yes, but only for your own domains," and "yes for all domains."This sort of question came up often enough to warrant two entries in the FAQ:

To activate a spell completion or spell trigger item, the spell in the item must appear on your class spell list. How do you handle a cleric’s domain spells? Most deities have three or four domains, but a cleric chooses only two of them. Are only the spells from the domains the cleric has chosen on his class spell list for the purpose of activating these items? Or are the spells for all domains associated with the cleric’s deity on his class spell list? Also, which spells are on a specialist wizard’s class spell list? Do all wizard spells remain on the wizard class spell list, even when the wizard has chosen a specialty and his prohibited schools?

If you’re a cleric, spells from the domains you have selected are part of your class spell list. Spells from domains you could have selected, but did not, are not part of your class spell list (unless you get them on your class spell list some other way, such as by gaining another domain or adding another class).

Spells from a specialist wizard’s prohibited schools are not part of his class spell list.


Can my cleric of Pelor activate a wand of holy smite if he doesn’t have the Good domain? After all, it’s on his deity’s list of domain spells, so that’s the same as being on my character’s spell list, right?

Wrong. Your character’s domain spells are indeed treated as being on your class spell list for the purpose of using wands, scrolls, and similar items, but that applies only for spells in domains that your character has actually chosen. If you haven’t selected the domain as one of your two domains, the spells of that domain aren’t considered on your spell list (unless they’re already on your spell list from your class, such as aid, which is on all clerics’ spell lists and not just the spell lists of clerics with the Good or Luck domain).

[ijuinkun]

To be fair, friendship is always best. Friends at your beck and call mean you have increased firepower. The lone wolf dies, the pack fires multiple lasers at once.

Sigdi demonstrated this very well in the past two pages.

[Jannoire]

Thats a good point, though the only issue that needs addressing is the possibility of some vampires not having that spell prepared that day, or can't cast magic at all, or the idea that hel being stupidly evil commands the vampires to stand pat on the world, so she can take their dwarf souls as well, and the vampires revolt out of self preservation.

It would be in Hel's best interest to have the vampires up and around, since they would be high level in a new world full of freshly born, low level mooks.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I'm not even hep to the lingo of "hep to the lingo"!:smalleek:

me neither!

[r2d2go]

I just realized that every dwarf out there is fighting honorably right now, and as such aren't afraid of the instant horrible death that just almost befell around 15 of them. Just a bit of fridge horror.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I just realized that every dwarf out there is fighting honorably right now, and as such aren't afraid of the instant horrible death that just almost befell around 15 of them. Just a bit of fridge horror.

with tht mentality, why hven't dwarves died out yet?

[Rrmcklin]

I just realized that every dwarf out there is fighting honorably right now, and as such aren't afraid of the instant horrible death that just almost befell around 15 of them. Just a bit of fridge horror.

I feel like we've seen enough to comfortably say that's not true, though. Like, they care about honor in death and will praise it, as makes sense for their circumstances, but we've seen plenty of instances of fear of death and wanting to continue living if possible.

Certain individuals certainly might have that mindset, but it's really not the kind of thing we have a reason to just assume of all dwarves.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I feel like we've seen enough to comfortably say that's not true, though. Like, they care about honor in death and will praise it, as makes sense for their circumstances, but we've seen plenty of instances of fear of death and wanting to continue living if possible.

Certain individuals certainly might have that mindset, but it's really not the kind of thing we have a reason to just assume of all dwarves.

sort of like... oh, i died, that sucks.... but at least I have this amazing afterlife!

[factotum]

with tht mentality, why hven't dwarves died out yet?

They're not suicidal. They just want to be sure that when their end *does* come that they're in such an honourable position they don't get sent to Hel--they do that by living their entire lives in an honourable way. See the story Mr. Burlew posted about a group of elderly dwarves fighting through the snow in order to fetch food for their clan.

[Riftwolf]

This sort of question came up often enough to warrant two entries in the FAQ:




Proof that Gontor has UMD?

[zimmerwald1915]

Honestly, I think having to deal with one laser-wolf is enough danger for anyone.
This comment is Tevye-approved.

[Dion]

The vampires have a vague plan to plane shift before the world ends.

But in reality they will simply die like everything else, and Hel hasn’t bothered to tell them, and they haven’t had time to figure it out.

[Fyraltari]

‘‘In reality’’ the Order & the Thundershield Clan* will stop them. But should they not I see no reason why they couldn’t Plane Shift our of dodge, provided Gontor* thought to prepare that**.


*Say, the parties at Sigdi must have turned into quite the thing.

**Which he may or may not have as he was probably not counting on Durkon* being dusted but may have worried that Durkon* woudn’t or couldn’t take him along.

[D.One]

Just a bit of fridge horror.

Oh, fridge horror can be really cold...



This sort of question came up often enough to warrant two entries in the FAQ:





Proof that Gontor has UMD?

I'd not say proof, because we haven't determined his Domains, although Earth seems a reasonable bet. One possibility might be for "elemental" clerics to have the possibility of picking domains from non-opposing elements, for example, so that Fire or Water would be available to Earth clerics, and thus Gontor could have Water Domain.

[dmc91356]

Whether or not the former exarch had any particular domain shouldn't matter though, as the vamping changes the domains according to what I understand. Thanks to Jasdoif's timely quoting, it's clear that he would need to have a domain that allowed horrid wilting to be cast in order to use that scroll post-vamping. So, either one of the four available vamp domains has it, he's not a pure cleric and there's some class mix-in that allows it, he has more UMD ranks than any cleric (with their insanely low skill point expected total) would ever normally have or, IMO, the most likely thing is that Rich doesn't give a rip.

[Frozen_Northman]

:roy: Stick to the low-hanging fruit, Elan!
:elan: Oh, like how we'll soon prevail in this... squirmish?
:roy: ...

[Resileaf]

Whether or not the former exarch had any particular domain shouldn't matter though, as the vamping changes the domains according to what I understand. Thanks to Jasdoif's timely quoting, it's clear that he would need to have a domain that allowed horrid wilting to be cast in order to use that scroll post-vamping. So, either one of the four available vamp domains has it, he's not a pure cleric and there's some class mix-in that allows it, he has more UMD ranks than any cleric (with their insanely low skill point expected total) would ever normally have or, IMO, the most likely thing is that Rich doesn't give a rip.

Then I guess the question would be what domains did he previously have that allowed him to scribe a 'horrid wilting' scroll.

[Jasdoif]

:roy: Stick to the low-hanging fruit, Elan!
:elan: Oh, like how we'll soon prevail in this... squirmish?
:roy: ...Any bets on Anel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0812.html) showing up just to tell Elan to put a lid (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/annelid) on it?

[Leftour]

The "my buddy Durkon" line touched me. Belkar has come a long way since killing and looting random gnomes for no reason.

[Peelee]

Then I guess the question would be what domains did he previously have that allowed him to scribe a 'horrid wilting' scroll.

Why do you think he scribed it himself?

[Resileaf]

Why do you think he scribed it himself?

Rephrase my question as "What domain did he have that allowed him to cast Horrid Wilting" then. As far as I know, the spell needs to be on your list to cast it from a scroll, and it was mentionned earlier that you need the proper domain for it to be considered on your spell list.

[Peelee]

Rephrase my question as "What domain did he have that allowed him to cast Horrid Wilting" then. As far as I know, the spell needs to be on your list to cast it from a scroll, and it was mentionned earlier that you need the proper domain for it to be considered on your spell list.

The 15th level Wizard domain. :smalltongue:

[Elenna]

Absolutely loved the line about "Evil Willow" being a good spell to use to Durkon :smallbiggrin:

[Resileaf]

The 15th level Wizard domain. :smalltongue:

He's a cleric though. :smallconfused:

[zimmerwald1915]

He's a cleric though. :smallconfused:
I thought he was a first-level Expert?

[Peelee]

He's a cleric though. :smallconfused:
So was Tsukiko.:smallamused:

I thought he was a first-level Expert?
That too!

[Resileaf]

So was Tsukiko.:smallamused:


She was a mystic theurge.

[Peelee]

She was a mystic theurge.

Yes, which is a prestige class that requires both divine and arcane spellcasting ability, the most common of which is cleric/wizard. My old joke was that Gontor was a level 1 Cleric (or level 1 Expert, for bonus points), my new joke is that he is the most overpowered character we have yet seen with both Cleric and Wizard levels (and 1 Expert level, for bonus points).

[Fyraltari]

Yes, which is a prestige class that requires both divine and arcane spellcasting ability, the most common of which is cleric/wizard. My old joke was that Gontor was a level 1 Cleric (or level 1 Expert, for bonus points), my new joke is that he is the most overpowered character we have yet seen with both Cleric and Wizard levels (and 1 Expert level, for bonus points).

He's actually an Elder Scrolls V: Oblivion mage using his incredibly broken magic-system to mimic every single class from every single game ever.

[Resileaf]

Yes, which is a prestige class that requires both divine and arcane spellcasting ability, the most common of which is cleric/wizard. My old joke was that Gontor was a level 1 Cleric (or level 1 Expert, for bonus points), my new joke is that he is the most overpowered character we have yet seen with both Cleric and Wizard levels (and 1 Expert level, for bonus points).

Ah. >_< Damn, I missed that joke starting. Now I just looked dense.

[The_Weirdo]

Of note: Belkar just saved Durkon's entire family and then some.

[D.One]

The real explanation is probably "The Giant didn't care about this detail". That said, what we do here (or at least at Class and Level Geekery) is trying to fit the rules into what was shown in comic. It has been sugested that Gontor could have taken the Alternate Class Feature Divine Magician (from Complete Mage), that would allow him to forego one domain in exchange for chosing one abjuration/divination/necromancy wizard spell each spell level.

[Peelee]

Ah. >_< Damn, I missed that joke starting. Now I just looked dense.

Not at all, with that elfen stick figure physique you look quite lightweight!

[Rogar Demonblud]

Rephrase my question as "What domain did he have that allowed him to cast Horrid Wilting" then. As far as I know, the spell needs to be on your list to cast it from a scroll, and it was mentionned earlier that you need the proper domain for it to be considered on your spell list.

Only if Rich is obsessively following the rules, which he has repeatedly stated he doesn't. Gontor had that scroll so Rich could write a joke about Horrid Willow.

[D.One]

Only if Rich is obsessively following the rules, which he has repeatedly stated he doesn't. Gontor had that scroll so Rich could write a joke about Horrid Willow.

Which makes me think which other spells could make similar jokes possible...

Maybe:

:durkon:"Cloak of C.." "OUCH!"
:belkar: "Feeling lazy today?"

(Imagine the Durkon emoji is Gontor)

(Let the games begin)

[The MunchKING]

"Foil your evil squirm"

I don't get it. Is there a double meaning I'm missing?

I thought it was a play on "Foil your evil scheme", except worms squirm to move.

[Jasdoif]

(Imagine the Durkon emoji is Gontor)The smilies thread has two for Gontor; one living, one vampire.

https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/GontorVampire_zpshuuydh50.png: Zo (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/zoneOfTruth.htm)-owie!
:elan:: Alas, Adam West, we hardly knew ye!

[D.One]

The smilies thread has two for Gontor; one living, one vampire.

https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/GontorVampire_zpshuuydh50.png: Zo (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/zoneOfTruth.htm)-owie!
:elan:: Alas, Adam West, we hardly knew ye!

Ok, this one I didn't understand :smallconfused:




https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Gontor_zps0mcwwfuy.png "Slay L... OW!"
:belkar: "Now I'm offended. You are a heightist!!!"

[KorvinStarmast]

Ok, this one I didn't understand :smallconfused: I think it's a reference to the 1960's Batman TV show starring Adam West as Batman. (There were a lot of "zowie" and "kapow" style references in that show ...)

[Peelee]

https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Gontor_zps0mcwwfuy.png "Slay L... OW!"
:belkar: "Now I'm offended. You are a heightist!!!"
That's a bit of a stretch. Maybe he just has friends in high places.

[Jasdoif]

Ok, this one I didn't understand :smallconfused:I think it's a reference to the 1960's Batman TV show starring Adam West as Batman. (There were a lot of "zowie" and "kapow" style references in that show ...)Yes (and yes). (https://www.66batmania.com/trivia/bat-fight-words/)

[happycrow]

Deathworm Slave of Hel possesses High Emotional Intelligence (also actually helpful, conjurations and summonings and combat aside).

[Peelee]

Yes (and yes). (https://www.66batmania.com/trivia/bat-fight-words/)

Holy onomatopoeia, Bananaman!

[Jasdoif]

Holy onomatopoeia, Bananaman!It looks more like Anarchic onomatopoeia, Dragon Wonder(ing). To the Musa-mobile! Sorry, I'm no Oracle. Of course, I'm no Nightwing either...and Nightcrawler is right out.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Am I the only one who felt a little bit bad for the worm in the last panel. Being stabbed and slashed like that must hurt.

I mean, it's just not fair for someone with arms to pick on someone who doesn't have any. It's wrong to attack the unarmed like that.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I thought it was a play on "Foil your evil scheme", except worms squirm to move.

I parsed it as portmanteauing 'scheme, worm' to 'sch-worm' to squirm.

[Ruck]

You might want to do what I did last weekend, and reread the Book 6 strips.

And the vampires don't need Gate, as they can just use Plane Shift.
Yeah, that's what I meant when I said "I don't know if that's the spell they need and I'm not going to research it right now, but I'm confident there is one."


The vampires have a vague plan to plane shift before the world ends.

But in reality they will simply die like everything else, and Hel hasn’t bothered to tell them, and they haven’t had time to figure it out.

Setting aside what Fyraltari said-- I don't think there's any reason to think this. It benefits Hel to have a bunch of loyal, high(er-than-1)-level vampire clerics to let loose on the new world, so why wouldn't she help them Plane Shift over if at all possible?

[Xel]

Rephrase my question as "What domain did he have that allowed him to cast Horrid Wilting" then. As far as I know, the spell needs to be on your list to cast it from a scroll, and it was mentionned earlier that you need the proper domain for it to be considered on your spell list.

To pit nits thoroughly across the line, OG Gontor need not have been able to activate the scroll to match the evidence we have. He was only carrying the scroll as far as we know. And he was a random NPC at the time — totally in character to have random loot that he couldn’t use.

[D.One]

That's a bit of a stretch. Maybe he just has friends in high places.

Or, as some paladin/monks, thinks too highly of himself...

[The_Weirdo]

Am I the only one who felt a little bit bad for the worm in the last panel. Being stabbed and slashed like that must hurt.

Well, if he didn't wanna get slashed and stabbed, why did he attack the heroes?

[luagha]

Personally I don't care for such Power of Love tropes, but from reading the author's comments on it, there were some particulars in this one, and the Giant suggested it would be difficult to impossible for another trapped soul to pull off the same thing. I am not sure if we got another answer as to what would happen if another spirit spammed all their memory at their host at once.

I was under the impression that Durkon discovered that the vampire had a flaw: He Wanted To Know. He wanted to understand why the living do the things they do. Maybe it was because he was a newly-created dwarf spirit who was Intelligence-smart, even Wisdom-capable but inexperienced and wanted to learn everything about the world he could the way all newborns do. Maybe it was so that he could trick the living better so as to feed off of and control them. Or maybe he was just telling himself that last one. Whatever his motivations were, it was undoubtedly an important part of his character. We often saw him going through Durkon's memories trying to figure them out. We even saw the effect through Nale and Zz'ditri's eyes when he thinks for a moment and calls them, "The same old d***s!" Looking back we know that he was going through Durkon's memory of them.

That Wanting to Know is what Durkon exploited. He let him know too much too fast too soon. Durkon wasn't engaging in any 'battle of wills' or 'power of emotions.' It was vampire-spirit vs. Static Chunk Of Way Too Much Data and the vampire spirit got overwhelmed taking it in.

Stone Boy Vampire doesn't necessarily Want To Know. He's a little more goal oriented.

[Resileaf]

Well, if he didn't wanna get slashed and stabbed, why did he attack the heroes?

I agree with you this time, but I still feel the urge to disagree on principle.

[Peelee]

I agree with you this time, but I still feel the urge to disagree on principle.

Oh, you can still disagree. The participants don't matter, the point remains the same - "why would you attack Mecha Hitler if you didn't want to get shot?" It's not a matter of "I want X, so I will do Y," that's a preposterous argument to begin with.

[D.One]

Am I the only one who felt a little bit bad for the worm in the last panel. Being stabbed and slashed like that must hurt.

I mean, it's just not fair for someone with arms to pick on someone who doesn't have any. It's wrong to attack the unarmed like that.

:belkar: "Are you saying Roy should engage the worm with his bare hands?"

[KorvinStarmast]

I agree with you this time, but I still feel the urge to disagree on principle. Then I'll disagree on interest.
Team win.
????
Profit. :smallcool:

[Watcher]

Vampires in OotS are already different from vanilla D&D vampires, so I won’t assume that every single one has to change domains when vamped. Water & Magic don’t seem like domains that Hel offers, but Magic & Earth seem like likely domains for the O.G. Exarch to have.

Maybe the Exarch traded for it from his pal, the high priest of the Creed of Water at Elemental Domains Convention. Per the Magic Domain, he can use arcane scrolls at half his Cleric level.
Maybe when he was vamped, he kept the Magic Domain and swapped out Earth for one of Hel’s domains. He’s not high enough level Magic-domain Cleric to cast Horrid Wilting, so he makes a caster level check and rolls a natural 16. Success!

I dunno. If I were a DM, and my newly vamped Cleric PC said, “I don’t like the vampire domains. Can I keep Good and Magic?”
I would say, “Good domain, no. Magic... eh, why not. Sure.”

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Vampires in OotS are already different from vanilla D&D vampires

How so?

Grey Wolf

[Watcher]

Their Domination gaze, for one.
“Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out.” But Durkula made Belkar jump off a ship. I believe someone said that it persists after death for some time, but Hilgya snapped out of it the instant of Durkula’s death.

Also, the vampire spirit being custom made by a death deity for the host’s heart, holding the original soul hostage, “eternal sleep” after absorbing all the memories, the vampire slowly absorbing memories at all. All of that isn’t mentioned in core rules afaik. Not that it’s against the core rule book, but these rules seem to be specific to OotS.

A mechanic for a willful host to take control of the vampire is also not anywhere in rules, of course.

[The_Weirdo]

I agree with you this time, but I still feel the urge to disagree on principle.

Hmm. Let's see.

You should most definitely not give me a million dollars.

[Rrmcklin]

Their Domination gaze, for one.
“Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out.” But Durkula made Belkar jump off a ship. I believe someone said that it persists after death for some time, but Hilgya snapped out of it the instant of Durkula’s death.

Also, the vampire spirit being custom made by a death deity for the host’s heart, holding the original soul hostage, “eternal sleep” after absorbing all the memories, the vampire slowly absorbing memories at all. All of that isn’t mentioned in core rules afaik. Not that it’s against the core rule book, but these rules seem to be specific to OotS.

A mechanic for a willful host to take control of the vampire is also not anywhere in rules, of course.

That sounds like a change of how Domination itself works, not specifically with vampires.

As for how vampires, specifically, work, it's been brought up several times before that "fluff" somewhere describes vampires as maligned presences that take over corpses, so even if Dnd terms that's not new. All the Giant did was flesh out exactly how that works, in his world.

[zimmerwald1915]

Hmm. Let's see.

You should most definitely not give me a million dollars.
*gives the Weirdo 1 million Confederate dollars*

[Watcher]

Fair enough. So the Giant changed the minutiae of a spell. Maybe he changed the minutiae of which domains are available to vampires. That’s nothing compared to other changes he’s made in the name of a good story.

[Peelee]

*gives the Weirdo 1 million Confederate dollars*

https://media1.tenor.com/images/8cea5c852c179c9def48cdf752580127/tenor.gif?itemid=9996288

[WolvesbaneIII]

It would be in Hel's best interest to have the vampires up and around, since they would be high level in a new world full of freshly born, low level mooks.

Well, it certainly would be in hels favor to do that, but she's rather selfish and short sighted, as she didn't think about the bet she took in the first place. She might just order the whole dwarven vampire squad to stand in place so she can snack on more souls. Doubly so if she can take vampire dwarf souls, but I don't think it works like that.

I mean, it would probably be in everyones or at least most peoples best interest to not be evil or selfish, so as to not incur the wrath of a terrible after life, and yet evil still persists. That is the nature of short sighted planning. Hel has shown poor planning abilities, and while it is possible she has since learned of that, her inclination to make bad decisions could be a persisting trait that continues to this day, whether she knows it or not.

But, you might be right, and it is a good point to consider. Hel could have learned from her poor decisions and might order the vampire squad to plane shift to her domain to stand pat for the future world.

Side note, what happens to vampires starved of blood? Will there be blood for them to feed on in the interim between world creation?

[Peelee]

Well, it certainly would be in hels favor to do that, but she's rather selfish and short sighted, as she didn't think about the bet she took in the first place....

Hel has shown poor planning abilities

She didn't plan on Thor telling the dwarves about the bet. At worst, that's a single instance of a bad decision. She also showed excellent planning abilities at the Godsmoot, especially on short notice, and was only thwarted by a demigod who agreed not actually going through with it. I don't really think you can establish a pattern here.

[The_Weirdo]

*gives the Weirdo 1 million Confederate dollars*

*Sells the bills and coins given to numismatics stores and fans in general, netting for himself some 10 million dollars*

[WolvesbaneIII]

She didn't plan on Thor telling the dwarves about the bet. At worst, that's a single instance of a bad decision. She also showed excellent planning abilities at the Godsmoot, especially on short notice, and was only thwarted by a demigod who agreed not actually going through with it. I don't really think you can establish a pattern here.

She made good use in the short term, but she seems to be bad in the long term.

[Rrmcklin]

She made good use in the short term, but she seems to be bad in the long term.

In what way? Please provide an example that supports this assertion.

[Watcher]

How long has Hel’s scheme taken? A week? Two weeks? It’s a great scheme, but it is very much short term. She doesn’t have a plan past the million soul payoff at the end.

Some examples: Hel explained her scheme to the entire assembled Northern Pantheon just to gloat. Her speech directly influenced Idunn’s “No” vote and probably Hermod’s as well. Loki even called her out on her premature villain gloat. Loki sent Hilgya to help, and the High Priestess of Thor gave Roy the runestone that let him into Firmament. If Hel kept quiet, Rubyrock might not have had reason to help Roy.

She knew the heroes were there, too. Roy had doubts about being able to stop Xykon. If he thought the souls of the dwarves were safe, he might have given up and let the gods kill everyone. If Hel kept her speech brief and maybe added points that Idunn, Bragi, and Hermod liked, her plan would be smoother right now. She might even have won then and there.

A lesser example: She spent effort infecting everyone on the Mechane with Sphinx Pox. When someone told her the incubation time was five weeks, she screamed.

[WolvesbaneIII]

In what way? Please provide an example that supports this assertion.

She didn't think the whole bet through. thats poor long term planning, and didn't take into account any other gods doing anything to thwart her in the bet.

I'll let the watcher take it from here as seen below.



How long has Hel’s scheme taken? A week? Two weeks? It’s a great scheme, but it is very much short term. She doesn’t have a plan past the million soul payoff at the end.

Some examples: Hel explained her scheme to the entire assembled Northern Pantheon just to gloat. Her speech directly influenced Idunn’s “No” vote and probably Hermod’s as well. Loki even called her out on her premature villain gloat. Loki sent Hilgya to help, and the High Priestess of Thor gave Roy the runestone that let him into Firmament. If Hel kept quiet, Rubyrock might not have had reason to help Roy.

She knew the heroes were there, too. Roy had doubts about being able to stop Xykon. If he thought the souls of the dwarves were safe, he might have given up and let the gods kill everyone. If Hel kept her speech brief and maybe added points that Idunn, Bragi, and Hermod liked, her plan would be smoother right now. She might even have won then and there.

A lesser example: She spent effort infecting everyone on the Mechane with Sphinx Pox. When someone told her the incubation time was five weeks, she screamed.

This^^^

She just threw a pox at her enemies without considering how long it would take for it to work. Jeez, thats not just long term planning, but short term is also pretty bad. She's kind of like nale in that regard. similar but certainly different.

[Rrmcklin]

How long has Hel’s scheme taken? A week? Two weeks? It’s a great scheme, but it is very much short term. She doesn’t have a plan past the million soul payoff at the end.

Some examples: Hel explained her scheme to the entire assembled Northern Pantheon just to gloat. Her speech directly influenced Idunn’s “No” vote and probably Hermod’s as well. Loki even called her out on her premature villain gloat. Loki sent Hilgya to help, and the High Priestess of Thor gave Roy the runestone that let him into Firmament. If Hel kept quiet, Rubyrock might not have had reason to help Roy.

She knew the heroes were there, too. Roy had doubts about being able to stop Xykon. If he thought the souls of the dwarves were safe, he might have given up and let the gods kill everyone. If Hel kept her speech brief and maybe added points that Idunn, Bragi, and Hermod liked, her plan would be smoother right now. She might even have won then and there.

A lesser example: She spent effort infecting everyone on the Mechane with Sphinx Pox. When someone told her the incubation time was five weeks, she screamed.

I mean, when she's Queen of the Northern Pantheon why are you assuming she needs a plan past that?

Except Hermond made it very clear that they only thought it was protest vote and didn't actually want to be party to actually destroying the world, and nothing else would be necessary. Hermond would gone back on their word no matter what, regardless of what Hel did or didn't do.

You have to make some unsupported assumptions there to call that bad long-term planning. You don't even have proof that Hel didn't try to parlay with Iunn or Bragi before hand and it didn't matter. That a plan is not flawless is not the same thing as it not being well-thought out.

I'm not trying to claim that Hel is some genius tactician, but that's also not the same thing as being as short-sighted as some people seem to love to claim.

[Peelee]

She didn't think the whole bet through. thats poor long term planning, and didn't take into account any other gods doing anything to thwart her in the bet.

Not really; most bets hinging on third parties carry the unstated assumption that the bettors won't try to influence the outcome. I'd say it was kind of a jerk move on Thor's part of the bet itself wasn't a significantly bigger jerk move.

[Watcher]

Hermond would gone back on their word no matter what, regardless of what Hel did or didn't do.

You have to make some unsupported assumptions there
Lol

Hel assumed Hermod would side with her, and set up a contingency, just in case he didn’t. That’s a far cry from the idea that Hermod would betray her no matter what.

Anyway, we don’t have a wealth of screen time of Hel to pick from. From what we do, she’s shown to throw tantrums when things don’t go her way. She even lashes out at her consort and ally, Thrym. Not exactly playing the long game there.

Also, compare Odin. Odin predicted Hel’s scheme years in advance. He gave Durkon’s prophecy anyway so everything could end up where it is right now.
Odin is playing the long game. He’s a couple orders of magnitude above Hel when it comes to the long-term.

Actually, now that I think of it, Odin is very much Hel’s opposite in that regard. With his “bad days” being semi-common, he can’t rely on himself for the short-term. He has to set up huge chains of events on his good days to cover the long term while he’s out of commission.

[The_Weirdo]

Oh, you can still disagree. The participants don't matter, the point remains the same - "why would you attack Mecha Hitler if you didn't want to get shot?" It's not a matter of "I want X, so I will do Y," that's a preposterous argument to begin with.

Nah. You see: soldiers following orders deserve that treatment, oppressors deserve that treatment, etc.

People fighting against oppression do not.

For instance: if the death worm didn't want to get slashed, he shouldn't fight the heroes. It works because he's on the wrong side of history. But "if the heroes didn't want to take a Cone of Cold, they shouldn't fight the worm" doesn't because they're on the right side of history. The right side of history, the oppressed, the side that didn't start it, they get to do whatever they need.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Not really; most bets hinging on third parties carry the unstated assumption that the bettors won't try to influence the outcome. I'd say it was kind of a jerk move on Thor's part of the bet itself wasn't a significantly bigger jerk move.

Which is poor planning on hels part. She shouldn't have taken that bet on a whim. Hind sight is 20/20. And loki never said nobody WOULDN'T influence the bet. Hence the poor planning on hels end of this.

She's not good at long term planning, but she has made some good moves on the short term though, and hel as far as I know isn't a well renowned strategist, and considering she was making a bet with loki the trickster god, she should have known not to make any bets with a god known for tricking people. thats some really bad decision making in general. It'd be like making a bet with moebius from legacy of kain, when he is renowned for tricking people and making them do his bidding, unbeknownst to them at the *time.

Though, it'd be worse making a bet with moe, as he would know ahead of time how things play out, where as loki's bet has a 50-50 chance of working out for him this time. It's only a huge streak of luck that things turned out this way.

Hel did make some good moves, but overall, trusting a trickster god was really stupid, even if they were related. Gods don't always look out for family if I recall correctly, and these 2 are no exception.


Lol

Hel assumed Hermod would do what he said he would and side with her. That’s a far cry from the idea that Hermod would betray her no matter what.

Anyway, we don’t have a wealth of screen time of Hel to pick from. From what we do, she’s shown to throw tantrums when things don’t go her way. She even lashes out at her consort and ally, Thrym. Not exactly playing the long game there.

Also, compare Odin. Odin predicted Hel’s scheme years in advance. He gave Durkon’s prophecy anyway so everything could end up where it is right now.
Odin is playing the long game. He’s a couple orders of magnitude above Hel when it comes to the long-term.

Actually, now that I think of it, Odin is very much Hel’s opposite in that regard. With his “bad days” being semi-common, he can’t rely on himself for the short-term. He has to set up huge chains of events on his good days to cover the long term while he’s out of commission.

Good points over all my man.

[Rrmcklin]

Lol

Hel assumed Hermod would side with her, and set up a contingency, just in case he didn’t. That’s a far cry from the idea that Hermod would betray her no matter what.

Anyway, we don’t have a wealth of screen time of Hel to pick from. From what we do, she’s shown to throw tantrums when things don’t go her way. She even lashes out at her consort and ally, Thrym. Not exactly playing the long game there.

Also, compare Odin. Odin predicted Hel’s scheme years in advance. He gave Durkon’s prophecy anyway so everything could end up where it is right now.
Odin is playing the long game. He’s a couple orders of magnitude above Hel when it comes to the long-term.

Actually, now that I think of it, Odin is very much Hel’s opposite in that regard. With his “bad days” being semi-common, he can’t rely on himself for the short-term. He has to set up huge chains of events on his good days to cover the long term while he’s out of commission.

1) Okay? You were the one arguing she was short-sighted so pointing that out isn't helping your case. I don't see what point you thinking you're making. The point remains that if Hermond had kept their word the others wouldn't have mattered, you have nothing to say she didn't try to court the "no" demi-gods and just couldn't sway them.

2) Thrym is not her consort, that would be his "reward" if he succeeded, which he very explicitly did not do. Telling him she has no further use for him, when he has been rendered entirely useless, also proves nothing.

3) Odin literally has the ability to see in the future and know exactly (or close to) what has to happen to get the outcome he's looking for. Yes, I would in fact imagine he's better planner (when lucid) than most people. Like, that comparison is so ridiculously and obviously unfair, I'd almost call bad-faith on it.

Your arguments seem to rely on either ignoring actual context, or changing the context of things for some reason, and I really don't get it. So I think I'm done discussing this with you.

[hroþila]

Nah. You see: soldiers following orders deserve that treatment, oppressors deserve that treatment, etc.

People fighting against oppression do not.

Must be nice to live in such a naive word of black and white. Things can be pretty different for everyone else, though (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0918.html).

[Shining Wrath]

Noted: the "evil squirm" pun results in a miss with the rapier, while the "lukeworm" pun results in several inches of rapier in the worm's body.

Better puns = better rolls.

[Watcher]

Discarding your allies when they’re no longer useful is bad for the long term. Thrym won’t be useless forever.

And yes, I know it’s unfair to compare prophecy with planning. I was shining a light on how different they were.
The only other god we see scheming is Loki, who set up a massive long-term bet between Thor and Hel that Loki got a cut on the side.



Your arguments seem to rely on either ignoring actual context, or changing the context of things for some reason, and I really don't get it. So I think I'm done discussing this with you.

You got sorta hostile in a hurry. Someone said Hel was short-sighted. You wanted examples. I gave them.

I didn’t expect this to turn into an argument. It’s not my argument anyway.

[The_Weirdo]

Must be nice to live in such a naive word of black and white. Things can be pretty different for everyone else, though (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0918.html).

Notice where those gentlemen's souls still end up...

[zimmerwald1915]

The right side of history, the oppressed, the side that didn't start it, they get to do whatever they need.
The right side of history hitherto has been the preserve of rising ruling classes as against the old - that is to say, bearers of new forms of oppression and at best relative liberation. They are always and exclusively aggressors against the old order, being midwives of the new.

Your moralizing was always tiresome, but is at this point completely incoherent.

[hroþila]

Notice where those gentlemen's souls still end up...
You're assuming that was the destination of every soldier who died in that battle, which is a huge, unsupported assumption.
You're also assuming that being Evil in D&D terms, by itself, deserves death, which is rather odd in light of your forum history.
More importantly, you're moving the goalposts. Those Evil gentlemen, even if they're indeed Evil, are clearly being oppressed.

[Peelee]

And loki never said nobody WOULDN'T influence the bet.

"The rules don't say a dog can't play basketball!"

I don't disagree that she shouldn't have taken the bet on a whim, but you're stretching here.

[Ironsmith]

Nah. You see: soldiers following orders deserve that treatment, oppressors deserve that treatment, etc.

People fighting against oppression do not.

For instance: if the death worm didn't want to get slashed, he shouldn't fight the heroes. It works because he's on the wrong side of history. But "if the heroes didn't want to take a Cone of Cold, they shouldn't fight the worm" doesn't because they're on the right side of history. The right side of history, the oppressed, the side that didn't start it, they get to do whatever they need.

Oh, stuff it. Nobody gets anything just because they want it. If the heroes want to save the world, they'll have to go through a worm that can put a Cone of Cold on them in order to do it. If the worm wants the world destroyed, he'll have to kill a small legion of dwarves (plus six high-level adventurers) in order to see it done- or at least delay them awhile. Both of them are going to have to go through a lot of stuff they don't want in order to get what they do- if it were otherwise, we wouldn't have a story.

[Particle_Man]

What spells has Gontor actually cast? I am wondering if he is a cleric at all. Wu Jen has Horrid Wilting and an elemental theme to boot.

[WolvesbaneIII]

"The rules don't say a dog can't play basketball!"

I don't disagree that she shouldn't have taken the bet on a whim, but you're stretching here.

Well, that doesn't disprove that she made a bad bet based on poor long term planning. Especially when the god in question is a trickster god.

She shouldn't have made that bet...with loki.

And the air bud clause doesn't apply. The bet was made around thor and hel, with thor being aware of the bet, although he was drunk at the time, but he was present none the less. Of course he's going to do something about it.

This was a stupid bet made on a whim that had bad long term ramifications.

Again, hel made quite a few bad moves without the proper wisdom to see how things would work out.

The sphinx pox example was a good move, in theory, but its long term ramifications made no difference for the vote for example.

The bet with loki was a good idea in theory, but due to poor long term planning, she's in the bad shape she's in due to the bets long term execution. This godsmoot was only able to come about by chance and was not something she could have forseen, and her big dumb mouth made her other supposed vote go against her.

She did have some good moves, with the frost giant attacks, the death worm she summoned, and so on, but those are just good short term work arounds. Anything that doesn't help her position long term has gone quite poorly.

Hel seems to act like a mustache twirling villain with no other MO other than being evil for the sake of it, without thinking ahead or having any degree of empathy. (which makes sense, she's a god of evil and what not) but she's about as dumb as nale in a way. Had she just voted the way she did, and not boasted, she could have won by now. Much like nale who boasted about killing malak.

Thats an example of poor short term planning, but so far anything that is longer than say a few months has not worked out well for her, even less so the several millenia since she took on the bet.

I wonder why she is so bad at long game strategy. Maybe she ate some bad chess player souls in the last world. She just took lokis bait without considering any long term ramifications, and knew thor was aware of the whole set up in one way or another.

Well, lucky for her this whole thing came up recently, but I doubt it will work out for her in the long run because of the prophecy with odin. Though, maybe loki pulled a double bluff, and he made that bet so it would work out for hel.

That would be a decent trick by the trickster god after all.

[nolongeralurker]

I should be asleep but I'm logging in solely to say that I just realized 'warm' is pronounced 'worm' and 'worm' is pronounced 'wirm'

#deepthoughts

[Peelee]

She shouldn't have made that bet...with loki.

Totally agree on that.

[Rrmcklin]

To be fair, I think a little lee way might be expected because, you know, her father and all.

Also, to be fair, we don't actually know all that much about Loki's tricks and machinations here. People just sort of go "He's Loki, so of course he's involved with a lot of stuff" even when it wouldn't make sense or really add anything to the story.

[WolvesbaneIII]

To be fair, I think a little lee way might be expected because, you know, her father and all.

Also, to be fair, we don't actually know all that much about Loki's tricks and machinations here. People just sort of go "He's Loki, so of course he's involved with a lot of stuff" even when it wouldn't make sense or really add anything to the story.

maybe if the gods didn't quarrel with their own family, sure. But gods don't have the same family togetherness that you or I have.

Some families in real life would ruin their own for the poorest of reasons, and the gods are like that in many works of fiction.

In any case, when it comes to loki, he seems to play a good game of 3d chess. This whole thing seems like its a way to ruin hel over the many eons of starvation.

But!

Theres always the possibility this is a double bluff or something, meant to give hel some dominion over the dwarven souls but not as much as she thinks, and to teach her a lesson.

But thats just a hypothesis and nothing more. So far the story seems to point in the other direction.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Hel's only miscalculation with the bet was thinking that she was helping Loki get one over on Thor. And she may not have been wrong in that, since without Thor cheating and tampering with the bet's conditions things would be going much more her way. Loki may have crossed himself up (again). Probably a fully functioning Odin would've declared the bet null due to Thor effectively juicing the race horse.

Her rant at the Godsmoot had no effect on the demigods, since they weren't there for that. Hermod flinched at what was at stake, which brings up the interesting question of how things would've gone if he'd voted first or second instead of sixth.

[jokem]

What spells has Gontor actually cast? I am wondering if he is a cleric at all. Wu Jen has Horrid Wilting and an elemental theme to boot.

I am wondering if Hel has the Water Domain, or some domain compatible with Horrid Wilting?

I also wonder if 'Front Door Guy' was actually a druid before this happened to him?

[Peelee]

I am wondering if Hel has the Water Domain, or some domain compatible with Horrid Wilting?

I also wonder if 'Front Door Guy' was actually a druid before this happened to him?

Druids can't wear metal armor.

[The_Weirdo]

Some families in real life would ruin their own for the poorest of reasons

True dat. :(

[jokem]

Druids can't wear metal armor.

True - but I suppose Ironwood or stone armor is stretching credibility...

[WolvesbaneIII]

Hel's only miscalculation with the bet was thinking that she was helping Loki get one over on Thor. And she may not have been wrong in that, since without Thor cheating and tampering with the bet's conditions things would be going much more her way. Loki may have crossed himself up (again). Probably a fully functioning Odin would've declared the bet null due to Thor effectively juicing the race horse.

Her rant at the Godsmoot had no effect on the demigods, since they weren't there for that. Hermod flinched at what was at stake, which brings up the interesting question of how things would've gone if he'd voted first or second instead of sixth.

Thor didn't cheat at all. He was mostly a hapless victim in all of this. The bet was between loki and hel, and hel didn't take into account that thor would act as a god would, and save his followers from a terrible fate with hel.

Thats typical god stuff, with hel and loki placing a bet some what screwing thor over.

So while hel made some poor long term planning, thor was no cheater in this. This is more like hel made a dumb bet with the trickster god.

I'd say the bet wouldn't have been so stupid if thor had made the bet, or some other god, but making a bet with loki would need to be looked at with all the fine print studied over by lawyers and with strategic planning.

This is in line with the old tale of a farmer who tricked a king out of a great harvest by simply multiplying the rice by 2 and adding 1 each day till he had a good haul.

It seemed good on paper, but the strategy wouldn't pan out in the long term like the king wanted.

This is very much the same thing. Hel got all the dishonorable souls, but didn't take into account that thor would teach his people to be the most honor bound society in the world (or something like that).

I wouldn't have made that bet if I were hel, not with loki, and not with anyone. I'm the kind of person who doesn't make rash decisions, but hel didn't even think about the bet in terms of "what if this happens? or this?" she simply said "LOL I get all the dishonorable dwarf souls" and of course thor wouldn't take this sitting down, as he wouldn't get any souls if they were all dishonorable, so he was forced to make them honorable.

So, in parting this long evening, I would insist that thor didn't cheat, so much as he acted out of self preservation and as a god normally does so that he could get more souls for himself, hel simply didn't think any farther than what was right in front of her.

[Wizard_Lizard]

maybe if the gods didn't quarrel with their own family, sure. But gods don't have the same family togetherness that you or I have.

Some families in real life would ruin their own for the poorest of reasons, and the gods are like that in many works of fiction.

In any case, when it comes to loki, he seems to play a good game of 3d chess. This whole thing seems like its a way to ruin hel over the many eons of starvation.

But!

Theres always the possibility this is a double bluff or something, meant to give hel some dominion over the dwarven souls but not as much as she thinks, and to teach her a lesson.

But thats just a hypothesis and nothing more. So far the story seems to point in the other direction.

It was toteach his daughtera valuable lesson; that long term planning os useful!

[Watcher]

Her rant at the Godsmoot had no effect on the demigods, since they weren't there for that.
Iounn: “All that stuff Hel said sounds, like, totes lame. Iounn, demigoddess of youth, votes No.”

They weren’t there, but they could at least hear what was going on from the lobby.

Also, Odin might not be an arbiter in this world. In the original myths, he’s a bit of a trickster god himself. He might have seen the bet and thought it was clever.

[hroþila]

Iounn
Gotta say, I'm still super bothered by that spelling mistake/transcription error, and I'm mystified that there's so many Google hits for it. It can even be found in actual books about the Norse and stuff :smallfrown:

[Fyraltari]

Gotta say, I'm still super bothered by that spelling mistake/transcription error, and I'm mystified that there's so many Google hits for it. It can even be found in actual books about the Norse and stuff :smallfrown:
It’s Idunn, right?

[hroþila]

It’s Idunn, right?
Yeah, although it depends on the criteria you use to adapt it. The original form is Iðunn, with the <ð> being the source of the problem. Another possible spelling would be Ithunn.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah, although it depends on the criteria you use to adapt it. The original form is Iðunn, with the <ð> being the source of the problem. Another possible spelling would be Ithunn.

Yeah, well I’ll stick to sounds I can actually pronounce, you know. Besides I fell like people will give me funny look if I start saying ‘‘Othin’’.

As for ‘‘Ioun’’, that’s probably because people think of ‘‘young’’.

[zimmerwald1915]

Those Evil gentlemen, even if they're indeed Evil, are clearly being oppressed.
How do you figure that the armed agents of the state authority, with a monopoly of violence, are being oppressed?

[Tiltowait]

The vampires have a vague plan to plane shift before the world ends.

But in reality they will simply die like everything else
Will they? I like the idea that some of the weird extraplanar creatures are actually survivor species from previous worlds. It's already canon that the gods of OOTS went through some pretty bizarre ideas.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

How do you figure that the armed agents of the state authority, with a monopoly of violence, are being oppressed?

Their families are being held hostage to ensure their obedience.

Grey Wolf

[zimmerwald1915]

Their families are being held hostage to ensure their obedience.

Grey Wolf
"Held hostage" is a bit much. They're not imprisoned, they're living in the Empire. And Tarquin doesn't have them in his back pocket to do with personally as he likes at any moment. They would be executed by other agents of his - that is to say, other members of the same organization, probably designated MPs. That's not oppression, that is internal organizational discipline.

[HerbieRAI]

I'd say Hel is a good planner. She isn't able to see the future like Odin, but a good one in any case. What she doesn't have is a lot of power.

1) The bet was a good idea. There have been countless worlds before this one, and at the time there was no reason to think this one wouldn't end any differently. Honestly, it still may be a good bet at this moment if the Order weren't the heros of the story. All Hel needs to have happen to win is the world get unmade before the Snarl is released, which will happen if the Order doesn't interfere with the vote or stop Xkyon from taking control of the final gate. Even then, they have to convince Red Cloak to help save the world against the Dark One's wishes or this problem will crop up again in the nearish future and Hel still wins.

2) She has made plans within plans to get this vote passed within a couple of weeks. She convinced the demigods to vote in her favor, which had to take some time and persuasion probably before the plan was in place. Then move an army of frost giants into position to stop an airship that may be passing through. There are plenty of other means of transportation.

3) I'd argue the pox was good planning as well. You never know how long these kinds of fights take place, and now she has a plan in play to take out the airship.

4) Durkla researched the "raise dead faster" spell instead of protection from daylight. Going to the dwarven homeland was always a contingency, and they had that all planned before the vote.

[D.One]

*Sells the bills and coins given to numismatics stores and fans in general, netting for himself some 10 million dollars*

As a numismatic fan myself, I must say that, depending on rarity, the sum may be way way smaller (and come on, you've just got a huge quantity of bills and coins - they're not that rare). :smalltongue:

[Fyraltari]

"Held hostage" is a bit much. They're not imprisoned, they're living in the Empire. And Tarquin doesn't have them in his back pocket to do with personally as he likes at any moment. They would be executed by other agents of his - that is to say, other members of the same organization, probably designated MPs. That's not oppression, that is internal organizational discipline.

So the vast majority of the people of the Empire of Blood aren’t oppressed either, then?

[zimmerwald1915]

So the vast majority of the people of the Empire of Blood aren’t oppressed either, then?
When you can't see the difference between an armed soldier with the authority to kill with impunity, and an ordinary person without that authority, you may want your eyes checked for myopia.

[Watcher]

I'd say Hel is a good planner.

I completely agree. She is a good planner. She’s just not been characterized as a great long-term planner.

She’s had years and years to come up with this plan, but if Durkon didn’t Just So Happen to get vampirized right before the Godsmoot, she wouldn’t have been able to put it into action. She had no grand, long term plan to get a high priest. She hadn't done a single thing to make this opportunity happen.
The opportunity of Durkon’s vampirization dropped in her lap, and she used it to her fullest potential.

Yes, it’s a great plan. But, again, this has all happened, max, within 2 weeks. Great improvisation. Terrible long-term planning.

[Fyraltari]

When you can't see the difference between an armed soldier with the authority to kill with impunity, and an ordinary person without that authority, you may want your eyes checked for myopia.

Joke’s on you, I actually am myopic!
wait, no, joke’s on me.

I see no reason why the soldiers couldn’t be oppressed by the very system they enforce. Bad systems suck for everybody.