Legendary Alchemist Open Playtest

[N. Jolly]

Welcome to the Legendary Games playtest for the Legendary Alchemist (https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQ17gdTe6A1CUCFbjf0ReMSTnlPXJXRFRPTadkXFG4p8a4jdT BWTjNRLTDMmcQy6RkqbgfiWivohbKC/pub)! We’ve been working on this class for quite a long time, and we’re happy to share it with you. Unlike other playtests, this one will only be a week long, as we’re anxious to finish this class. But we will be listening to any and all feedback during that time, doing our best to improve the class and make it as Legendary as possible! Please feel free to comment or leave feedback here, and we hope that you’ll enjoy our newest offering!

[Mehangel]

It looks good. I do have to say though it is a massive document, that almost makes me think that it might've been better to split it into two documents (for playtesting purposes), maybe by having archetypes and/or discoveries placed in the separate document.

[N. Jolly]

It looks good. I do have to say though it is a massive document, that almost makes me think that it might've been better to split it into two documents (for playtesting purposes), maybe by having archetypes and/or discoveries placed in the separate document.

That's a reasonable statement, the design doc was split into two for this reason. If it becomes an issue with more people, I'll probably end up doing that.

[Thealtruistorc]

Liking what I see so far. My first question is about the term "alchemical undead" used in the Reanimator archetype. What is it referring to?

[Jeff the Green]

Hi all! I'm the secondary author on this project. As my sig says, I've written for Spheres of Power, but this is my first time working on a Legendary project. I wrote the tinker discipline (along with its automaton), several related discoveries, and a number of the archetypes. I'll do my best to answer any questions or concerns on those aspects.

Enjoy!

[FedoraFerret]

Liking what I see so far. My first question is about the term "alchemical undead" used in the Reanimator archetype. What is it referring to?

That one's my baby. The intention there is undead created with the alchemical necromancy feature, that could do with some more clarity. Thanks!

[N. Jolly]

The main link should be updated with the published version, which should load faster for those with issues.

[platinumdragon]

Just a thought. Would you consider putting gaps between different class feature groupings? I initially thought only toxicologists got bombs.

[N. Jolly]

Just a thought. Would you consider putting gaps between different class feature groupings? I initially thought only toxicologists got bombs.

That's reasonable, I actually spaced it out with a 'return to table of contents' link, which have been added to the doc for ease of browsing. That should make it easier to navigate and look cleaner.

[ChrisAsmadi]

The part of the Alchemy ability that allows you to spend Quintessence for +1 dice of damage on alchemical items seems weirdly costed compared to all the other Quintessence uses - I'm not sure when you'd ever want to use it. Quintessence in general feels like it'd be really scarce, actually, given how many things use it and how little you get per day.

The text for Alchemical Trapsmith mentions the Trap Breaker for some reason.

Making an Automaton Small sized gives it a Con penalty even though they're all Con -.

One of Alchemical Scoundrel or Esotericist could use a clause so they're compatible (by losing one spell per level per day) - there doesn't seem to be a good reason to make them incompatible.

Alchemical Scoundrel + Chirurgeon + Urban Adept seems like it'd make for a really interesting character build.

[Jeff the Green]

Making an Automaton Small sized gives it a Con penalty even though they're all Con -.

One of Alchemical Scoundrel or Esotericist could use a clause so they're compatible (by losing one spell per level per day) - there doesn't seem to be a good reason to make them incompatible.

Both of these have been fixed. Thanks!

[N. Jolly]

The part of the Alchemy ability that allows you to spend Quintessence for +1 dice of damage on alchemical items seems weirdly costed compared to all the other Quintessence uses - I'm not sure when you'd ever want to use it. Quintessence in general feels like it'd be really scarce, actually, given how many things use it and how little you get per day.

The text for Alchemical Trapsmith mentions the Trap Breaker for some reason.

Making an Automaton Small sized gives it a Con penalty even though they're all Con -.

One of Alchemical Scoundrel or Esotericist could use a clause so they're compatible (by losing one spell per level per day) - there doesn't seem to be a good reason to make them incompatible.

Alchemical Scoundrel + Chirurgeon + Urban Adept seems like it'd make for a really interesting character build.

That's fair, I believe the costing for that was from a previous doc. Now if you spend quintessence, the boosting scales (no spending additional quint for additional damage dice). That ability is mostly there so in the early levels if you don't have much to spend quint on (tinker has this issue), you can do something with it. We're actually looking for feedback on if quintessence is given enough, so any thoughts on that are openly appreciated.

Fixed the trap breaker reference.

Looks like Jeff fixed the con reference.

Huh, thought esotericist had that, I'll have to check that out.

Also probably need to change the name of alchemic scoundrel, it's really close to another archetype name I wrote.

Appreciate the feedback, we'll hopefully be adding more content as time passes, and let us know if there's any content you'd like to see, such as archetypes, magic items, or other such things.

[ChrisAsmadi]

That's fair, I believe the costing for that was from a previous doc. Now if you spend quintessence, the boosting scales (no spending additional quint for additional damage dice). That ability is mostly there so in the early levels if you don't have much to spend quint on (tinker has this issue), you can do something with it. We're actually looking for feedback on if quintessence is given enough, so any thoughts on that are openly appreciated.


I'd like to see a +Quintessence per day FCB bonus at least (so that if you're playing a build that needs lots of it, then you're not forced into spending all your feats on boosting it). Maybe some way of recovering it (maybe through extracts?), but that might run into issues.

The only other suggestion I can think of for the moment is some way to get Shortbow / Longbow proficiency without Spheres of Might or being an Elf, because that was a popular use for the Grenadier archetype. Maybe as an alternate class feature swap for the Alchemical Weapon proficiencies?

Customize Automaton, Major & Fantastical seem like Discovery taxes - both of them are good enough that I'm not sure why you'd ever not want to take them as a Tinker - but then I'm also not sure how you'd solve that (unless you swapped them for Invigorating Command and Semblance of Cognition and instead made those Discoveries, because while they're both interesting and fun, they don't seem as mandatory).

Also, the ToC says "Favorite Class Bonus" where it should say "Favored Class Bonus".

e: Another suggestion to add - an Equipment Sphere Discipline Combat Talent that gives proficiency with the Alchemical Weapons, in case anyone wants to use them with other classes?

[khadgar567]

you know this thing looks like wolf quacks like duck and move like mick jagger. i cant get a grip in the class as each sub option tries to be something completely different road it feels like jumbled mess in shape of absent minded doctors thesis on Z-rusting the core class

[N. Jolly]

I'd like to see a +Quintessence per day FCB bonus at least (so that if you're playing a build that needs lots of it, then you're not forced into spending all your feats on boosting it). Maybe some way of recovering it (maybe through extracts?), but that might run into issues.

The only other suggestion I can think of for the moment is some way to get Shortbow / Longbow proficiency without Spheres of Might or being an Elf, because that was a popular use for the Grenadier archetype. Maybe as an alternate class feature swap for the Alchemical Weapon proficiencies?

Customize Automaton, Major & Fantastical seem like Discovery taxes - both of them are good enough that I'm not sure why you'd ever not want to take them as a Tinker - but then I'm also not sure how you'd solve that (unless you swapped them for Invigorating Command and Semblance of Cognition and instead made those Discoveries, because while they're both interesting and fun, they don't seem as mandatory).

Also, the ToC says "Favorite Class Bonus" where it should say "Favored Class Bonus".

e: Another suggestion to add - an Equipment Sphere Discipline Combat Talent that gives proficiency with the Alchemical Weapons, in case anyone wants to use them with other classes?

I'm actually shocked I didn't do a FCB for extra quint, that's been added at 1/4 per level (ToC has been fixed)

We could probably toss in some weapon FCB stuff, since that'd be fun.

As for that, I'd rather do that in a spheres book, reprinting the weapons and such. I could probably do a makeshift version of it unofficially, but not sure I feel like adding new sphere talents in a book that isn't spheres.

I'll let Jeff address the customization stuff, since that's his babby.


you know this thing looks like wolf quacks like duck and move like mick jagger. i cant get a grip in the class as each sub option tries to be something completely different road it feels like jumbled mess in shape of absent minded doctors thesis on Z-rusting the core class

This took 3 different people for me to understand what you were saying here. Also learned what zeerusting was, so that was fun. I don't really agree that it's anymore unfocused than the base class, which gives several class features and leaves you to do with them as you will without any real focus.

[Jeff the Green]

Customize Automaton, Major & Fantastical seem like Discovery taxes - both of them are good enough that I'm not sure why you'd ever not want to take them as a Tinker - but then I'm also not sure how you'd solve that (unless you swapped them for Invigorating Command and Semblance of Cognition and instead made those Discoveries, because while they're both interesting and fun, they don't seem as mandatory).

I understand the concern, but if I'm going to ditch those I'd prefer to just remove the lock altogether and just make it based on level. Making it a Discipline Breakthrough locks out certain combinations of archetypes from major/fantastical discoveries. Not the end of the world, I know, but it does invalidate a character I want to play at some point. :smalltongue:


This took 3 different people for me to understand what you were saying here. Also learned what zeerusting was, so that was fun. I don't really agree that it's anymore unfocused than the base class, which gives several class features and leaves you to do with them as you will without any real focus.

To elaborate, Paizo's alchemist has basically two primary functions: blast and buff. But it doesn't lean into either of them and a lot of class features don't synergize with them. One of our design goals was basically to give simple buffing and general blasting, with the option of choosing to lean into buffing, add some debuffing, or gain an ally you can buff (with the right discoveries). This means that very few class features won't be used. Yes, you can play this class multiple ways, but each character should be more focused.

[ChrisAsmadi]

I understand the concern, but if I'm going to ditch those I'd prefer to just remove the lock altogether and just make it based on level. Making it a Discipline Breakthrough locks out certain combinations of archetypes from major/fantastical discoveries. Not the end of the world, I know, but it does invalidate a character I want to play at some point. :smalltongue:

That's a fair point. It just seems like right now that if you're playing a Tinker, you're almost certainly going to take those two discoveries because they have such big benefits compared to other discoveries.

[Llyarden]

Okay so this turned into a bit of a slew of things. Sorry about that.

Does the extra damage from a bomb still not work with Vital Strike, or was the omission of that clause intentional?

The Discovery class feature being right at the bottom of the class seems a weird place to put it to me, and is somewhat contrary to the normal precedent.

What can Bulwark Automaton trigger off/affect? The only generic definition of an 'attack' as far as I know is the one that invisibility uses, which means that your automaton can somehow intercept spells that simply require the caster to focus on one specific person (rather than actually, like, hit them or something), which seems a bit weird. Also it isn't clear how that would work with area attacks like fireball (or an alchemist bomb.)

Multi Bomb has a typo in it: "the t alchemist"

"50% fortification" isn't a thing. The armour ability is moderate fortification, or you could just say a 50% chance to negate critical hits and sneak attacks, especially since that's the wording used for the 19th-level improvement.

What does Ultimate Bomb affect? Specifically, does it affect critical or Vital Strike damage dice?

Multiped automaton might want a clause about exactly how many legs it has for if people go about using called shots (or something like SoM's Limb Ripper legendary talent) on them.

The Customisation ability of the automata talks about the 'tinker advanced discipline' for major/fantastical customisations instead of the relevant discoveries.

Is 'Customisation Bonus' just a thing you get along with any customisation that lists one? Because that isn't very clear.

Orichalcum shell might want to specify that it becomes DR/- for clarity.

Alchemical Saber says 'feed' instead of 'fed,' and probably should say 'provokes attacks of opportunity' instead of 'provokes.'

The kallen's gift spells talk about needing poison from a crimson scorpion but don't actually have any material component?

Awakened Genius...I think is meant to grant Diverse Training and not 'discipline divergence'?

[Jeff the Green]

What can Bulwark Automaton trigger off/affect? The only generic definition of an 'attack' as far as I know is the one that invisibility uses, which means that your automaton can somehow intercept spells that simply require the caster to focus on one specific person (rather than actually, like, hit them or something), which seems a bit weird. Also it isn't clear how that would work with area attacks like fireball (or an alchemist bomb.)

Now specifies weapon or natural attack.


Multiped automaton might want a clause about exactly how many legs it has for if people go about using called shots (or something like SoM's Limb Ripper legendary talent) on them.

Done. Specifies it can be from 6 to 750. (Insect to longest millipede.)


The Customisation ability of the automata talks about the 'tinker advanced discipline' for major/fantastical customisations instead of the relevant discoveries.

Fixed.


Is 'Customisation Bonus' just a thing you get along with any customisation that lists one? Because that isn't very clear.

Yes. It's part of the customization, essentially. I think I clarified it.


Orichalcum shell might want to specify that it becomes DR/- for clarity.

Done.

Thanks for the suggestions!

[N. Jolly]

Okay so this turned into a bit of a slew of things. Sorry about that.

Does the extra damage from a bomb still not work with Vital Strike, or was the omission of that clause intentional?

The Discovery class feature being right at the bottom of the class seems a weird place to put it to me, and is somewhat contrary to the normal precedent.

What can Bulwark Automaton trigger off/affect? The only generic definition of an 'attack' as far as I know is the one that invisibility uses, which means that your automaton can somehow intercept spells that simply require the caster to focus on one specific person (rather than actually, like, hit them or something), which seems a bit weird. Also it isn't clear how that would work with area attacks like fireball (or an alchemist bomb.)

Multi Bomb has a typo in it: "the t alchemist"

"50% fortification" isn't a thing. The armour ability is moderate fortification, or you could just say a 50% chance to negate critical hits and sneak attacks, especially since that's the wording used for the 19th-level improvement.

What does Ultimate Bomb affect? Specifically, does it affect critical or Vital Strike damage dice?

Multiped automaton might want a clause about exactly how many legs it has for if people go about using called shots (or something like SoM's Limb Ripper legendary talent) on them.

The Customisation ability of the automata talks about the 'tinker advanced discipline' for major/fantastical customisations instead of the relevant discoveries.

Is 'Customisation Bonus' just a thing you get along with any customisation that lists one? Because that isn't very clear.

Orichalcum shell might want to specify that it becomes DR/- for clarity.

Alchemical Saber says 'feed' instead of 'fed,' and probably should say 'provokes attacks of opportunity' instead of 'provokes.'

The kallen's gift spells talk about needing poison from a crimson scorpion but don't actually have any material component?

Awakened Genius...I think is meant to grant Diverse Training and not 'discipline divergence'?

I'll leave the stuff Jeff can cover to him and respond to my info (all typos are being corrected):

The VS omission was not intentional, it's been added. Appreciate the catch.

Huh, I thought I mentioned discoveries sooner. I'll be changing the location of them.

Clarifying ult bomb's interaction with all that: "(the ultimate bomb’s base damage is treated as 3d4+ three times the alchemist’s Intelligence score)".

Fixed alchemical saber, it's an update of a 3.5 weapon, so that's probably why it had that wording.

That's just a flavor thing, but I can add a M component with no cost if it really matters.

Oh wow, awakened genius is actually using text back from when multi-pathing was a base part of the class. I'm going to have to change that to something else.

Appreciate the feedback, changing things as we speak.

[EarthSeraphEdna]

I cannot help but think that toxicologist is significantly weaker than mutagenic and tinker. The little bit of extra damage and the sickening, which do not even affect a significant chunk of poison-immune enemies, cannot stand up to the raw buffs of mutagenic or the action economy of tinker.

The bomb Intelligence damage and Throw Anything Intelligence damage interaction should be clarified.

Kallen's Demolitionist gift should likely be 3rd-level to match the other Kallen extracts; it is not much stronger.

The bound elemental looks worse than the automaton to me. I think you could stand to directly give the alchemist all Knowledge skills as class skills, and then simply make the bound elemental a fourth discipline, alongside mutagenic, tinker, and toxicologist.

The beastborne shifter should likewise be a discipline, not an archetype. It should not suddenly call for Wisdom, either.

The black powder researcher looks like a step down from the rather competent gun chemist to me.

The combat scientist's weapon and armor proficiency line should cover alternative class features as well, not just archetypes, for compatibility.

The esotericist is a straight-up downgrade. The casting scheme is not that much better than extracts, and switching from Intelligence to Charisma is a massive blow. I do not like it at all.

The martial analyst's unarmored AC bonus could stand to be more like the one in the alternative class features.

[Zaq]

Speaking as someone who has never played PF but who would absolutely lunge for an alchemist if I were to find myself in a PF game, this looks pretty neat!

I’ve probably missed it in one of your earlier threads, but is there an explanation somewhere of your overarching design goals in this whole Legendary X project? Why you thought the classes needed tweaking, what your intended end result is, that sort of thing. Mostly just curious (not trying to imply anything about the project one way or the other).

[N. Jolly]

I cannot help but think that toxicologist is significantly weaker than mutagenic and tinker. The little bit of extra damage and the sickening, which do not even affect a significant chunk of poison-immune enemies, cannot stand up to the raw buffs of mutagenic or the action economy of tinker.

The bomb Intelligence damage and Throw Anything Intelligence damage interaction should be clarified.

Kallen's Demolitionist gift should likely be 3rd-level to match the other Kallen extracts; it is not much stronger.

The bound elemental looks worse than the automaton to me. I think you could stand to directly give the alchemist all Knowledge skills as class skills, and then simply make the bound elemental a fourth discipline, alongside mutagenic, tinker, and toxicologist.

The beastborne shifter should likewise be a discipline, not an archetype. It should not suddenly call for Wisdom, either.

The black powder researcher looks like a step down from the rather competent gun chemist to me.

The combat scientist's weapon and armor proficiency line should cover alternative class features as well, not just archetypes, for compatibility.

The esotericist is a straight-up downgrade. The casting scheme is not that much better than extracts, and switching from Intelligence to Charisma is a massive blow. I do not like it at all.

The martial analyst's unarmored AC bonus could stand to be more like the one in the alternative class features.
As normal, I'll leave Jeff's stuff to Jeff.

I've thought that too, the toxicologist is getting some buffs in scaling now, including being able to double up on additives on toxins.

And clarified.

I feel like the demolitionist gift is a little better, but I'm open to change there.

Making new disciplines isn't going to happen, we have to have 20 discoveries for them, and there's some stuff that doesn't have the content for a full discipline, thus why it's an archetype.

See above statement on beastborne shifter, and yeah, the wisdom thing was a copy/paste error.

I don't agree that gun chemist is better than black powder researcher.

Sure, that could use clarification.

The reason the martial analyst's AC bonus is different is because it's connected to a whole archetype, rather than just a single ACF that can be swapped out whenever.

Appreciate the comments, because of this and other discussion, I think toxins are in a better (and more clear) place than they were before.


Speaking as someone who has never played PF but who would absolutely lunge for an alchemist if I were to find myself in a PF game, this looks pretty neat!

I’ve probably missed it in one of your earlier threads, but is there an explanation somewhere of your overarching design goals in this whole Legendary X project? Why you thought the classes needed tweaking, what your intended end result is, that sort of thing. Mostly just curious (not trying to imply anything about the project one way or the other).

Thanks, a lot went into this. Also love your truenamer guide; it and treantmonks guides were what got me into writing guides myself.

And you're giving me way too much credit assuming stuff like that. Legendary rebuilds are generally just "I like the idea of this class doing the following thing." I've done a few of these rebuilds now, and the goal was always just to make the class feel closer to its intended roots. The design goal is generally "fix what I consider a problem", although some get more ambitious (Legendary Cavalier and Samurai were like that). If you asked some people, the design is just to show that I know the class better than the original devs :P I basically got my start in the industry 'fixing' the kineticist.

[ChrisAsmadi]

Are the alternate class features for proficiencies compatible with the Combat Scientist archetype or not? It seems like they're intended to, but if so, Combat Scientist should probably read "Weapon and Armor proficiencies: In addition to the normal proficiencies granted by the alchemist class and any other archetypes or alternate class features, if this is this character’s first level in any class, they can select a martial traditionSOM of their choice."



And you're giving me way too much credit assuming stuff like that. Legendary rebuilds are generally just "I like the idea of this class doing the following thing." I've done a few of these rebuilds now, and the goal was always just to make the class feel closer to its intended roots. The design goal is generally "fix what I consider a problem", although some get more ambitious (Legendary Cavalier and Samurai were like that). If you asked some people, the design is just to show that I know the class better than the original devs :P I basically got my start in the industry 'fixing' the kineticist.

The best Legendary classes are probably the ones where you guys either fix a class that doesn't work properly (Shifter, Kineticist) or take a boring class and make it interesting (Magus, Samurai). It's why I'm really hoping you do Legendary Cleric at some point, because while it's powerful, it's also super boring.

[N. Jolly]

Are the alternate class features for proficiencies compatible with the Combat Scientist archetype or not? It seems like they're intended to, but if so, Combat Scientist should probably read "Weapon and Armor proficiencies: In addition to the normal proficiencies granted by the alchemist class and any other archetypes or alternate class features, if this is this character’s first level in any class, they can select a martial traditionSOM of their choice."

We've updated things in this way so that they work with the new ACFs, although I might need to change the wording since right now combat scientist is getting a touch too good of proficiencies. Trust me when I say that I do want everything to work with Com Sci and everything else.


The best Legendary classes are probably the ones where you guys either fix a class that doesn't work properly (Shifter, Kineticist) or take a boring class and make it interesting (Magus, Samurai). It's why I'm really hoping you do Legendary Cleric at some point, because while it's powerful, it's also super boring

Glad to have written 3 of those four, and done contributions on the last one. Legendary's always given me the chance to write what I wanted and trust that I can make it 'legendary' as Jason Nelson would say. Being given that freedom has allowed me to explore new territory (as well as old territory when it comes to always having a punch and gun archetype), give products my own voice, and most importantly, bring new people into the industry. It's because of them that I've gotten to work with professional wrestlers Brennan Williams and Mansoor Al-Shehail of the Insiderz. Everyone there are great people, and I support them because they've shown faith in me that has let me accomplish things I never thought possible. Legendary is always a place where the talented get to show off what they can do, which is what I wanted to do with this and every other Legendary Games product.

[EarthSeraphEdna]

What was actually improved about the toxicologist? I cannot see that great an upgrade over how it was before.

[Jeff the Green]

As normal, I'll leave Jeff's stuff to Jeff.

Jeff's stuff:

The bound elemental looks worse than the automaton to me. I think you could stand to directly give the alchemist all Knowledge skills as class skills, and then simply make the bound elemental a fourth discipline, alongside mutagenic, tinker, and toxicologist.

As Jolly said, we ain't making more disciplines. Certainly we're not making another discipline that works almost identically to an existing one. What exactly makes it worse? There are disadvantages (loss of immunities, likely lower HP) and advantages (feats, not mindless). (On the not-mindless front, I clarified that they speak one of the elemental languages or Sylvan, and gave the arch those for free.)

I had planned to make them more distinct, by restricting some customizations and giving them access to evolutions, but on looking that list over they almost all center around making more or better natural attacks, which is not what I was going for with the automaton. In the end, they ended up being a different flavor of tinker that will play a little differently, and I'm okay with that.


The esotericist is a straight-up downgrade. The casting scheme is not that much better than extracts, and switching from Intelligence to Charisma is a massive blow. I do not like it at all.

That's fine; you don't have to. I personally will probably never play one. I like skill points and Knowledge skills too much. However, an alchemist with Charisma is equally valid. As examples, take the Sparks from Girl Genius. (Jolly also suggests Mei Hatsume and Miu Iruma. Not being familiar with their respective properties, though, I accept no accountability if they're off the mark.)

While Intelligence has something of an edge in inherent usefulness, it is simply wrong to say that it is flat-out better. Same thing with extracts vs. psychic spells. It's a trade off that's fantastic for some characters and players and absolutely wrong for others, which is exactly what I like to see in archetypes. In addition, the Legendary Alchemist has between 4 and 8 skill points per level before Intelligence (depending on arch and ACFs), which is plenty to play someone who both commands minions and blows things up.

(I did give it the social skills, though, as I realized that it didn't have the support to make good use of them.)


In addition to the changes noted above, I thought I'd mention that I've decided to nix the discovery gate in front of major and fantastical customizations. Thinking back to my original design work, it's a legacy from an earlier design paradigm we abandoned.

I also added language letting you use your unarmed strike in place of a slam for anything related to customize self.

And it now gets Knowledge (engineering). How the heck did the original class not have that?

[N. Jolly]

What was actually improved about the toxicologist? I cannot see that great an upgrade over how it was before.

So drawing a toxin can be done as part of the move action to apply it to a weapon, at 6th level it can be applied as a swift action, at 12th level two additives can be added to the same toxin, and at 18th level, the alchemist can select a additive applied to a poison, and if a creature saves against it successfully, at the beginning of that creature's next round, they have to save against it again.

[Eldaran]

"The mutagenic alchemist must spend 1 point of quintessence and 10 minutes to brew a dose of mutagen, and once brewed, it remains potent until used. A mutagenic alchemist can create as many mutagens as they wish, although each mutagen becomes inert after 24 hours." This seems contradictory to me, do they last until used or only last 24 hours?

"each toxin being placed inside of a vial of other similar receptacle that is not exposed to open air." I think this should say a vial or other similar receptacle.

Edit: Confusion bomb has no save, it needs one.

[VoltsofEight]

I have to say I am extremely happy to see all the cool unarmed support. I dunno what the hell Wotc and Paizo's problem with punching things is but man does it suck to look around and only find like 3 ways to punch things viably without relying on cheese and then like 20 different ways to use "natural" weapons. Sometimes I don't wanna be Wolverine or Sabretooth. And by sometimes I mean most of the time.

[N. Jolly]

"The mutagenic alchemist must spend 1 point of quintessence and 10 minutes to brew a dose of mutagen, and once brewed, it remains potent until used. A mutagenic alchemist can create as many mutagens as they wish, although each mutagen becomes inert after 24 hours." This seems contradictory to me, do they last until used or only last 24 hours?

"each toxin being placed inside of a vial of other similar receptacle that is not exposed to open air." I think this should say a vial or other similar receptacle.

You're correct, mutagen had some text that was confusing. I'm hoping the following clarifies it:


Mutagen (Su) At 1st level, a mutagenic alchemist discovers how to create a mutagen that they can imbibe in order to heighten their physical prowess at the cost of their personality. The mutagenic alchemist must spend 1 point of quintessence and 10 minutes to brew a dose of mutagen, and once brewed, it remains potent until 24 hours have passed, becoming inert after that. A mutagenic alchemist can create as many mutagens as they wish at a time, allowing them to create back ups. A mutagen that is not in an alchemist’s possession becomes inert until an alchemist picks it up again.

And yeah, fixed the vial thing, appreciate you pointing it out to us.


I have to say I am extremely happy to see all the cool unarmed support. I dunno what the hell Wotc and Paizo's problem with punching things is but man does it suck to look around and only find like 3 ways to punch things viably without relying on cheese and then like 20 different ways to use "natural" weapons. Sometimes I don't wanna be Wolverine or Sabretooth. And by sometimes I mean most of the time.

You will never see a product from me that doesn't have unarmed support. Punching and unarmed styles are the absolute coolest thing to me, and I always want to support people who want to go in unarmed. I'd feel bad if I released a product that couldn't punch good.

[Quarian Rex]

Great job so far. I have a soft spot for the Alchemist and this is scratching a lot of itches for me. Two things are standing out as missing to me though. First would be a mention in Extracts on how to handle multi-target spells (like Haste and such). Do they just become single-target on the imbiber? Can you make extra doses for the extra targets? Does the consumption just let the imbiber 'cast' the effect in that same action? I assume that it essentially turns every effect into a single target personal effect but it doesn't seem to be actually mentioned but should (and offers the opportunity for other options as well).

The other thing that seems to be missing is Spheres of Power support. Even just an ACF switching out Extracts for Mid Spherecasting would be fine. Please slip this in.

[N. Jolly]

Great job so far. I have a soft spot for the Alchemist and this is scratching a lot of itches for me. Two things are standing out as missing to me though. First would be a mention in Extracts on how to handle multi-target spells (like Haste and such). Do they just become single-target on the imbiber? Can you make extra doses for the extra targets? Does the consumption just let the imbiber 'cast' the effect in that same action? I assume that it essentially turns every effect into a single target personal effect but it doesn't seem to be actually mentioned but should (and offers the opportunity for other options as well).

The other thing that seems to be missing is Spheres of Power support. Even just an ACF switching out Extracts for Mid Spherecasting would be fine. Please slip this in.

I can understand that, extracts now state they only affect the imbiber, even if it would normally be multi-target (but there's also inhaled extracts which can 'fix' that).

As for SoP stuff, I'm not as knowledgeable there, so if Jeff wants to add that, that's for him to decide. But I'd rather not making something with which I'm not completely comfortable rules wise, lest I make something bad and regrettable. Kind of a little rule of mine.

[Domar]

The Recondite Mechanist needs clarification. Does it lose half of each grade of customizations or half it's total customizations and you can just trade minors?

[Eldaran]

Confusion Bomb discovery has no save, is this intentional?

Black Blood Elixir has a price of 1,000 but a cost to create of 2,500, one of these is wrong. Additionally, it probably needs a DC to remove with Remove Disease.

[N. Jolly]

The Recondite Mechanist needs clarification. Does it lose half of each grade of customizations or half it's total customizations and you can just trade minors?

I'll let Jeff answer this one.


Confusion Bomb discovery has no save, is this intentional?

Black Blood Elixir has a price of 1,000 but a cost to create of 2,500, one of these is wrong. Additionally, it probably needs a DC to remove with Remove Disease.

Oh wow, confusion bomb let the gate mangled. The wording has now been clarified, it does have a save as intended, and the price of BB elixir has been fixed. Thanks for pointing this out to me.

Currently, we have 3 archetypes to be released, and I'll give some info on them.

Alienist: This is a summoning based archetype, where the alchemist gives a form to an outer horror through alchemical means for limited amounts of time, the summoned horror eventually being able to strip away the sanity of creatures it attacks.

Red Headed Merchant: Basically an alchemist who's really good at creating items as well as making them fast who may be based off of a certain opportunistic seller from another game.

Void Demolitionist: I reworked the dimensional ripper (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/dimensional-ripper) archetype from the kineticist to the alchemist chassis.

I have a few other archetypes planned too, as well as descriptions of how alchemists work in the world, locations that are great for games involving alchemists, a new and more powerful philosopher's stone, and a ton of other stuff that'll help make alchemists really shine in the game world. I want to put it all on the line here, do everything that I can to help this class stand out and be a centerpiece in this game.

Also what y'all think of this feat?


Alchemical Archetype Specialist
Your talents are unique in ways that others could only dream about.
Prerequisite(s): Alchemist 1st, an archetype which replaces poison resist +2, +4, +6, +8, and poison immunity.
Benefit: You can immediately apply a second archetype to your class which replaces or alters poison resist +2, +4, +6, +8, and poison immunity, regardless if it has already been replaced or altered. If the applied archetype would replace or alter other class features, it must still be a legal choice, replacing or altering other class features as normal.
Special: This feat must be selected at 1st level.
Normal: You cannot select two archetypes which replace or alter the same class feature.

Also who would I talk to about getting an OotS style avatar done? My current Avi is bad a lot, and I feel like it should be less bad a lot.

[A.J.Gibson]

I can understand that, extracts now state they only affect the imbiber, even if it would normally be multi-target (but there's also inhaled extracts which can 'fix' that).

As for SoP stuff, I'm not as knowledgeable there, so if Jeff wants to add that, that's for him to decide. But I'd rather not making something with which I'm not completely comfortable rules wise, lest I make something bad and regrettable. Kind of a little rule of mine.

Mixing SoP and base alchemist has always been tricky, but mostly due to how the alchemist's class features blend together. There was quite a bit of support for spheres/alchemist in AoP via discoveries, so a simple spellcasting for spherecasting swap would probably be fine, with a note for how alchemy works.

(I just realized how many chemistry puns were in that. Sorry.)

[Quarian Rex]

As for SoP stuff, I'm not as knowledgeable there, so if Jeff wants to add that, that's for him to decide. But I'd rather not making something with which I'm not completely comfortable rules wise, lest I make something bad and regrettable. Kind of a little rule of mine.

As a point of reference (for you, Jeff, or anyone else reading this) have a look at the Archaic Alchemist (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/archaic-alchemist) archetype. It is the most basic of the Alchemist SoP conversions, replacing Extracts with Mid-Casting (and associated Talent progression) and a Spell Pool, and would fit in perfectly as another lego piece in the current list of ACFs. Plz do this thing Jeff.



Currently, we have 3 archetypes to be released, and I'll give some info on them.

I'm really looking forward to these (and any others). It did get me thinking though. Any thoughts on opening up Archetype compatibility with the standard Alchemist? Perhaps adding a blurb at the beginning of the section that Archetypes from the standard Alchemist can be selected so long as they are replacing similar features? There are a lot of interesting options for alchemists out there (people have been trying to 'fix' the class since it's creation) and having some access to that would be a pretty big boon to the Legendary Alchemist.



Also what y'all think of this feat?


Alchemical Archetype Specialist
Your talents are unique in ways that others could only dream about.
Prerequisite(s): Alchemist 1st, an archetype which replaces poison resist +2, +4, +6, +8, and poison immunity.
Benefit: You can immediately apply a second archetype to your class which replaces or alters poison resist +2, +4, +6, +8, and poison immunity, regardless if it has already been replaced or altered. If the applied archetype would replace or alter other class features, it must still be a legal choice, replacing or altering other class features as normal.
Special: This feat must be selected at 1st level.
Normal: You cannot select two archetypes which replace or alter the same class feature.



Bold choice, I quite like it. A feat being equivalent to gradually increasing poison resistance seems about right and it opens up a lot of possibilities since poison resistance seems to be one of the most popular choices for substitutions. This added versatility would really benefit from an Archetype compatibility nod as I mentioned above.



Also who would I talk to about getting an OotS style avatar done? My current Avi is bad a lot, and I feel like it should be less bad a lot.

Check out the Request an OotS style Avatar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?448993-Request-an-OotS-style-Avatar-14-Even-More-Revenge) thread and perhaps the Avatar Adoption Center (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?26936-Avatar-Adoption-Center). Infrequent postings but might also be a good source of PM possibilities.

[Jeff the Green]

The other thing that seems to be missing is Spheres of Power support. Even just an ACF switching out Extracts for Mid Spherecasting would be fine. Please slip this in.

I'll get to work on it. I'm tempted to make it a 1 talent/level blended training arch, but I'd need something else to trade out.

[StSword]

I'll get to work on it. I'm tempted to make it a 1 talent/level blended training arch, but I'd need something else to trade out.

Bombs comes to mind, it's not like a SoP alchemist would be hurting for other ways to hurt people.

[ChrisAsmadi]

I'll get to work on it. I'm tempted to make it a 1 talent/level blended training arch, but I'd need something else to trade out.

Personally, I'm not a fan of Blended Training over two separate talent progressions - in addition to (usually) meaning you get less talents, it generally ends up feeling like you don't have enough talents to focus on anything properly.

[Quarian Rex]

I'll get to work on it. I'm tempted to make it a 1 talent/level blended training arch, but I'd need something else to trade out.

The ideas are not mutually exclusive. I would strongly suggest a basic Extract->Mid Casting ACF so that players can mix and match as their concept demands, but an additional archetype based around it would be a welcome addition as well. Just keep in mind that ChrisAsmadi's thoughts on the matter...


Personally, I'm not a fan of Blended Training over two separate talent progressions - in addition to (usually) meaning you get less talents, it generally ends up feeling like you don't have enough talents to focus on anything properly.

... are right on the money. If you go with Blended Training (thank the babby jebus that you are on the side of 1 per level and not just trying to trade out talents as is) remember that it is far less of a benefit than it might appear on paper, providing multiple avenues to mediocrity while denying any means to change it (locking out other forms of Talent progression on either side and such).

This isn't to say that Blended Training cannot be used well, just that it tends to need support abilities to get more use out of such limited resources/make it worth it.

[JMS]

Looking at the doc, Urban Adept's line in specialized knowledge about selecting 2 at 1th and 3 at 17th needs to be moved down a step.

Specialized Knowledge (Ex): At 5th level, whenever the urban adept successfully analyzes a creature with their tactical analysis class feature, they can select one of the following benefits, each effect lasting for as long as the creature is analyzed:

• The analyzed creature cannot make a 5-foot step or use the withdraw action while threatened by the urban adept or their allies

• The circumstance bonus to attack and damage rolls provided by their tactical analysis increases by +1 against the analyzed creature

• The urban adept and their allies know the analyzed creature’s exact hit points

• The analyzed creature cannot make attacks of opportunity against the urban adept or their allies

• The urban adept and their allies can ignore an amount of damage reduction the creature possess equal to the urban adept’s Intelligence modifier (minimum 1)

• The urban adept and their allies gain a +2 circumstance bonus to saving throws against spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, and extraordinary abilities possessed by the analyzed creature

• The urban adept and their allies gain a +2 circumstance bonus to armor class against attacks made by the analyzed creature

• The analyzed creature takes a -1 penalty on all saving throws against spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, and extraordinary abilities possessed by the urban adept and their allies At 11th level and again at 17th, they can select an additional benefit upon successfully analyzing a creature.

This ability replaces discipline breakthrough.
Bolded for emphasis.

[Quarian Rex]

Could we get this fluff...


Alchemical Duplicate
Prerequisite(s): Alchemist 6th.
Benefit: The alchemist gains the ability to create a duplicate body for themselves out of iron and metal;

... changed to something more like...


Alchemical Duplicate
Prerequisite(s): Alchemist 6th.
Benefit: The alchemist gains the ability to create a duplicate body for themselves out of fleshcraft, gears, or alchemical hydraulics;

... to be more of an extension of the fluff of Automaton, so that clone growers and Frankenstein crafters have as equal access to transhuman body-jumping as the robot makers? This sort of thing can wind up being weirdly important in some games.

[N. Jolly]

I'm really looking forward to these (and any others). It did get me thinking though. Any thoughts on opening up Archetype compatibility with the standard Alchemist? Perhaps adding a blurb at the beginning of the section that Archetypes from the standard Alchemist can be selected so long as they are replacing similar features? There are a lot of interesting options for alchemists out there (people have been trying to 'fix' the class since it's creation) and having some access to that would be a pretty big boon to the Legendary Alchemist.

I don't think that'd be possible, since some of them require bombs to be used as a power source, and that's just not something that's viable here. I'm going to be honest and say that when we're all said and done, we'll have 18 archetypes. Of those and our talents, I straight up gutted anything from the 1pp archetypes that was of any value (bruh, there was 4 different archetypes that gave land mines), so I'd say that the legendary alchemist and its archetypes are the best possible representation from the core class. As far as other 3pp stuff goes for this concern, I can't promise compatibility from them, and I'd rather not attempt to and make errors while doing so.


This added versatility would really benefit from an Archetype compatibility nod as I mentioned above.

How do you think would be the best way to word that?


Looking at the doc, Urban Adept's line in specialized knowledge about selecting 2 at 1th and 3 at 17th needs to be moved down a step.

And fixed, appreciate the note!

We're going to be ending the playtest in the next few days, as this was always intended as a shorter display of the class as well as time for us to work on content. Because of this, I'd like to mention a bit about all of the coming soon content, which has been held back from playtest in order to help incentivise people to check out the full book (I'm a monster, I know).

Alienist: We're going with something that has a strong vibe of the conjuration sphere with more versatility in the companions they can take in exchange for getting less innate benefits. It will be replacing specialization, so that's something to note. Eventually, the creature is terrifying enough for its natural attacks to deal Wisdom damage and horrify those around it into insanity. It has spiritual ties to the 3.5 alienist, but works in a different way that works more with the mechanics that we have available. I'm pretty happy about it myself, and it feels like it's going to have a specific flavor that really works for it. Also, no alignment restriction, so go ahead and be an LG good character who chucks around outer horrors.

Etheric Mystic: This is going to be the "Champion" archetype, which allows SoP casting and SoM talents. We're leaning towards blended casting, but at the moment it gets full 20 talent progression, so while there will be some choices to make, they won't be too hard (we hope). It gives enough versatility to the point where I believe it'll work out fine for anyone who wants to run a champion style character with the chassis, and it keeps bombs.

Gourmand: This is the one we have the least info about now, but as was said in Full Metal Alchemist, cooking is basically alchemy.

Red Headed Merchant: To me, alchemist was always a class that screamed 'battle merchant', and I wanted to embrace that. The RHB is far more social than other archetypes, gaining social talents, increased crafting speed, and decreased crafting cost, this is a very low impact archetype (replaces poison stuff and swift alchemy) that can add a lot of flavor to your characters (Please come again)!

Ruin Elementalist: Of course there's a kineticist-like arch in here, but it's actually a surprisingly small archetype that's mostly used to alter bomb damage, grant an elemental defense, and the ability to gain utility wild talents. All and all, a simple yet elegant archetype that's low impact and grants a TON of new utility to things.

Void Demolitionist: This is as close as I could retrofit the dimensional ripper into the alchemist chassis. Which being honest, wasn't that hard. The main class features of 'throw awesome things' made them very compatible, and while certain class features had to be made into discoveries to make sure we had enough class features to trade out, it comes with all of the charm of the original, allowing for an incredibly unique play style that I'm very proud of.

To add to this, we're including organizations that should help liven up games, including a merchant organization with the traditional merchant secrets, an alchemical college with shady practices, and a mobile kingdom that lives on the back of a turtle...that last part is a lie, but it's still a very mobile kingdom.

We're also adding new alchemical materials, alternative variant class bonuses, and all sorts of other stuff. This is as much a passion project as I've ever done, and I've pooled the most talented authors I could in order to make this book an amazing compilation of everything that I've ever wanted for the Alchemist since I first penned my guide. Really, if you pick up anything I've ever authored, I'd suggest it be this compendium of what I believe it means to be an Alchemist.

[Domar]

Dynamite Punch should be at level 15.

[N. Jolly]

Dynamite Punch should be at level 15.

Changed, thanks for the note!

[N. Jolly]

The playtest will be ending at 5 pm EST today, so if you have anything else you'd like to mention, please do so before then. Thank you for your contributions, and we're greatly looking forward to the full release!

[JMS]

The playtest will be ending at 5 pm EST today, so if you have anything else you'd like to mention, please do so before then. Thank you for your contributions, and we're greatly looking forward to the full release!

Out of curiosity, about how long will the release take? (Past seems to be 3 to 4 months.)

[N. Jolly]

Out of curiosity, about how long will the release take? (Past seems to be 3 to 4 months.)

It depends on what's ahead of it in the queue. Ideally, it'll be 1-2 months, but I'd say 2-3.

[N. Jolly]

Thank you everyone for participating in the playtest; we have a lot of other content that we'd have loved to have shown off, but the doc was too large and we wanted to hold some of it back for the full release. The response to the class has been largely positive, and we've made a lot of changes based on your feedback. We can't wait for the full release, with such new entries as the "Azoth" character template, the City of Silver Sands, and our iconic written by new author and member of The Insiderz, Mansoor Al-Shehail!