Warblade (4e) Class discussion thread

[MinotaurWarblad]

Discussion for Warblade class, found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?588564-Warblade-(4e)-Class)

I’m mostly worried that through power and feat selection this class ends up a mid-damage striker rather than a low-damage controller. I’m also 90% sure that this class gets hard control too soon and half the powers are too often clear winners compared to others of their level. I did most of this across multiple no-sleep nights where I made a half-cognizant collage of 4e’s controller powers from a bunch of different classes.

But hey, ya gotta start somewhere.

[MwaO]

I think when you can look at the following two class features that function on an at-will based class and one is:
Gain temp hp = Con+Wis+2 which only works once on anywhere from 2-3 attacks
And the other is:
Penalize to-hit = 4+Wis until EoNT on 2-3 opponents, usable at range.

You really want to go back to the drawing board. Especially as Rattling means that it is super-easy to MC for Ruthless Ruffian and add Str to all this PC's attacks.

(edit: to be clear, you've basically made a Psion that can spam an upgraded Dishearten Aug 2 at-will while not having to do the same thing each and every time, while having Defender level hp+defenses)

[Vhaidara]

Okay, taking it from the top

First off, I think you started from a poor position. Of the three Tome of Battle classes, they each fall pretty cleanly into a 4e role imo. Crusader was a defender, warblade was a HARD striker, and swordsage was the controller styled class. So I think a lot of the identity issues stem fromthe fact that you are trying to port a striker and turn it into a controller, while still porting the things that made it a striker

Every rider I see is Wisdom based. So the statline is a straight up lie, this does not have an Int secondary option.


Blockade: This is actually really super powerful, especially as anti-solo tech. They tend to have big bursts of buffing/enabling for allies, or of damage and debuff for enemies. This is something I would expect to see on the level of a good daily power, not an at will feature. And it's super versatile as well, especially since it's an interrupt, meaning that the burst reduction can straight up negate attacks if they were positioned to hit targets on the edge of the burst.

Diamond Mind does literally nothing since none of your at will powers apply save ends effects.
Iron Heart feels really weak because invigorating is incredibly weak
Stone Dragon is insanely powerful. Slide stat is something that you see on encounter powers at higher levels, and is a HUGE amount of forced movement. And you ignore resistance and immunities straight up?
Tiger Claw is likewise insane. At level 1, assuming a 16/16 statline with +primary/Secondary racials, you now apply -6 to attack rolls end of next turn with your at will powers

Poises
I really dislike that you aren't using encounter powers, i dislike the psuedo eclass design this class has. Encounter powers are where I tend to get the meat of my character because they are reliable in a way dailies are not.
Mountain Tombstone Strike: Nearly impossible to use unless you go first (Oh no, the party wizard did 3 damage and now i can't use my encounter power) and incredibly crippling if it goes off. You flourish this on a tiger claw attack at level 1 and you just slapped someone with effectively -11 to hit. But if you have anyone in the party who does any kind of spread damage, you'll quickly find your only encounter power (which, i should add, you can use twice an encounter at level 1) unusable.
Strike of Perfect Clarity: And now you add being able to use your encounter resource on crits? Seriously, this class has no consistent way to use its encounter resources until paragon. Furthermore, since this is a REALLY powerful control effect that relies on critting, it's an absurd Win More mechanic.
Time Stands Still: This is honestly a decent heroic effect as a controller. Finally a consistent ability to apply control. Except oh, i can only do this 1/encounter until 17
Feral Death Blow: way too late, bad timing, and only works if YOU bloody something. You're allegedly playing a controller with a side of leader or defender. Bloodying things is the job of exactly the role you are not.

Other Features
Martial Study: Bleh, focus on at wills feels awful to me
Weapon Aptitude: So a god tier accuracy feature and a free superior weapon, and situational invulnerability (+stat to defenses is god tier boosting)
Discipline Savant: Holy hell man, that rattle is up to -8 at will at level 3
Savant's Poise: Oh, so the level 13 and 23 flourishes ACTUALLY cost 2/3 respectively, instead of their listed costs. And we have -11 at will rattle coming up (stat increases and now functioning at Wis Mod +3)
Discipline Master: Now everything you do applies a -11 Rattled
Master's Poise: Might be relevant if flourishes were relevant. They aren't, so it isn't. And just for good measure we are now working with Wis +6 as a penalty to all attack rolls for everyone you hit.


First, full discipline was a bad mechanic when monk used it and it's a bad mechanic here. It is incredibly limiting in design scope because it prevents you from making any powers usable as a minor or off turn action, and I don't think it fits warblade at all. If you want, just give each power the movement option and let them be used independently. Let people mix and match things, let them be free.
Second general note: anything multitarget is BROKEN with the current version of Tiger Claw becaue the current version of tiger claw is completely broken
Third general note: The prevalence of bursts here is weird for a few reasons. First, it means that blinding the warblade is pretty ineffective due to everything being bursts. Second, it means that using a reach weapon is usually irrelevant to them because it doesn't change the burst/blast options

Blood in the Water: Potentially turns into 3 target twin strike that only requires one hit if you bloody everyone. Movement is...basically useless due to being so situational (you don't mark at range, marking is not your primary job, only works on bloodied enemies)
Charging Minotaur: This is actually a top tier heroic striker power because it lets you apply all the charge bonuses on to 2 people. Surprising Charge, Horned Helm, Vanguard Weapon, everything stacks up and slaps 2 targets. Aside from that, solid power
Sapphire Nightmare Blade: Solid power
Steely Strike: This is literally a Warden Daily form as an at will attack (Form of Mountain's Thunder). And it's a GOOD warden daily form. Better, possibly, since i think your intent is actually to do the damage on each of the 2 potential hits
Stone Bones: Does not need the self debuff at all. Also, unfriendly close bursts make for very bad at will powers due to awkwardness of not screwing your allies over.
Wolf Fang Strike: So this is Dual Strike (a good fighter at will) that is usable at range and prones, that also has really strong mobility built in and lets you get off the second hit even if you're not positioned to normally

As far as the stances, i REALLY dislike them. You're trying to have your eclass cake and eat it to by having both at will minor action stances and actual, REALLY good at will attack powers

Devoted Spirit
AP Feature: Solid enough
F11: holy crap on a stick this is broken. Remember when i said that the existing Blockade would be a strong daily? Congrats, now no monster within 3 of you can use bursts or blasts
E11: ...WHAT THE **** so you get to amp your rattles up to like, -15 for 2 turns? attached to a close burst 1 that also benefits from this? even ignoring the fact that tiger claw is actually broken, you also get to attach...slide 12? That's literally better than my level 20 Seeker|Fighter hybrid who is BUILT around forced movement. Scaling effects off of 2 stats is an absurd level of scaling. Also, why does this have +5 to hit on top of the implement keyword? you require proficiency with an implement to use it (PP requirement), your Wis riders are stupid enough that it's a coprimary instead of a secondary, and Versatile Expertise is not a bad idea for a mixed setup like this
U12: Why is Aura of Triumph a zone and not an aura? Auras are a thing. Also, this is completely broken. It is a HUGE zone/aura that provides ridiculous benefits to everyone in it. This is something I might, MIGHT put on a super hard core leader solo. This would be broken as an end of next turn power, as an end of encounter it ENDS THE ENCOUNTER.
F16: See above, blockade is broken, making a good thing better is more broken
D20: again the accuracy thing, plus super high accuracy from an inherent boost, blinded, deafened, stunned, dazed, and soon dominated

Setting Sun Master
AP Feature: Poise is useless, so this is useless
F11: okay, so for being an unarmed fighter, which probably means you multiclassed monk with Master of the Fist, so you have ki foci and a +3/1d8 unarmed strike, you get +secondary to all attack and damage rolls forever
E11: Immediate interupt, reliable trigger, high damage, powerful EFFECT line on an encounter power. overloaded,move the effect to the hit line
U12: Meh
F16: okay, 2 free pings of damage including one that's probably like 3d10 at this point. Ignoring the fact that the class has no built in means of grabbing.
D20: going to double tap, going to cluster people really badly, going to get a free tap of fall damage. And end of encounter minor action attacks. This is a god tier striker D20, but a kind of lackluster controller one.

Shadow Hand
AP Feature: Solid, don't know why getting Skill Focus (Stealth) is part of the AP feature
F11: You do not understand how Stealth works. It does not use the leveled DCs, the Perception check is opposed by your Stealth check, and attacking breaks hidden, no rolls involved.
E11: Bad. Works off of a dead stat (especially if you want to be building for stealth) and the effect is weak. Prerequisite is unneeded.
U12: decent
F16: this is just really situational
D20: so...this is 5 taps of damage on a single target, as far as i can tell. This is literally a striker's wet dream. Again, I dislike the prereq, especially since you have no way of fulfilling it on your own. Maybe if the U12 created a zone of dim light or darkness it would be more self sufficient, but for now it just isn't

Okay, so NOW we get to where Int has support. Nowhere in the class, but ALL the way through the feats. This is bad design. Both Wis and Int should have support from the class and the feats, not feast or famine like this.

A lot of these are also randomly race locked despite having NO connection to the race itself, which I considered really bad design. I'll be marking these with an (R) after the feat name so I don't have to repeat myself.

Battle Clarity: Makes you basically immune to reflex targeting bursts or blasts. Very bad design imo
Battle Cunning: Eh. It still feels really weird to me that warblade is a burster, but getting +secondary as a damage bonus is huge. This is 100% a hard striker feat.
Battle-Forged Improvisation (R): Honestly the fact that you wrote this tells me you know why full discipline is bad.
Battle Inspiration (R): This is a feat tax to be allowed to use your poise
Battle Interference (R): This is a really bad feat, since it doesn't apply during the enemy's turn. So it won't do anything to most enemies at all.
Battle Meditation: Okay, so you take this, MC fighter, Ubiquotous Shield, and Punishing Stance. Enjoy +2 to all defenses forever at no penalty. Way too strong with punishing stance.
Battle Skill: This does a lot, but it's all very situational. I'd personally never take it because I dislike situational feats.
Black Feather Initiate: You don't need to say using an attack power breaks hidden, that's part of being hidden.
Bloodstalker Initiate: This...doesn't do anything? It lets you perceive bloodied people within 5 of you if you have line of sight, which you can already do. And if they have cover or concealment, you have to roll perception which...is exactly how normal stealth works? Like, I'm pretty sure this feat actually just does nothing at all.
Cast-Iron Rebuke: Okay, so Infernal Wrath now has a huge attack penalty or a huge slide attached. Oh, and a super accurate attack to restrain the target
Cold Iron Grasp: First, I'm pretty sure you mean Darkfire, the alternative drow at will. This feat makes sense for fey step, it makes no sense for the drow options to be stapled on. Also, just GETTING another use of Fey Step is a HUGE deal for Eladrin Swordmage Advance setups.
Death of a Thousand Stings: Okay, this is useless so far since we have no powers that deal ongoing. And half int ongoing is literally nothing. Like, 3 damage at high paragon nothing.
Disciple of the Elements: And now we can add the thunder keyword to all of our bursts and expand them with resounding thunder
Disciple of the Soft Step: Cover AND concealment? That's effectively -4 to hit everyone but you
Discipline Focus: Horribly unequal, Tiger Claw can't even USE this until 23
Extra Poise: Poise is basically useless until 13 already
Gatekeeper (R)
Improved Elven Accuracy: +half stat to hit is huge for your dailies. Hard to judge since we don't HAVE any dailies, but this seems way too strong
Ironhide: bad, situational, monster crits aren't usualy as strong, and it still takes up an action so you might not be able to use it
Mantis Discipline: And now we have a 3 target minor action -8 to attack or slide 6
Murky Step Student: this is completely broken. This is the kind of effect you would get as a paragon daily utility stance. Weakened and -4 to attack as a punish for shifting, passively.
Past Life Student: This does nothing, since it adds to your Intelligence. Which isn't used for your discipline things. And if it did function, repeat after me "Disciplines are broken"
Predatory Strike: Bad striker feat
Setting Sun Style: So...for a feat, you can minor action +2 to defenses forever because of the stances. This also has nothing to do either with the old setting sun discipline or with your paragon path
Shifting Disciplines (R): Why would you ever want to change that
Silver Guardian: So you can use your powerful racial immediates as OAs if next to the target? weird, but i guess it does something. Except of course that it also means you're not using blockade which is pretty much always a bad idea.
Steel Scales: Eh. Not bad, but not good enough that I'd take kobold.
Warrior's Charge: Once again, the core issue is that Disciplines are broken.

End of the day, I'm honestly kind of disappointed. Tome of Battle's great innovation was giving us encounter based resources, and this class, for a system that took that idea and ran with it...takes that away? I mean, it's not like you lack for options to draw from, you've got 9 disciplines that went levels 1-9, there is so much to draw inspiration from.

[MinotaurWarblad]

I knew this class has major balance issues and is unplayable in its current iteration. So, no surprise there.
Thank you guys so much for the quick feedback. I’ll incorporate your points and concerns into the efforts I make to rework the class from its start point.
I will update each of the posts to include all of the content I’ve created over the next few weeks (I get only a few minutes for this a day), then work on fixing it from the ground up.
The only thing I think wasn’t quite communicated clearly on my part was that this is not intended to be a conversion so much as just using the same fluff and names, then building new powers and such based on what I imagined the fluff to appear as in my mind. Most of the Warblade’s maneuvers in ToB I turned into daily powers that I will freely admit are completely inaccurate representations of how they appeared in 3e.

[MinotaurWarblad]

Updated the paragon and epic feat posts. (As mentioned previously, I’m just adding in everything I created before I start the necessary overhaul.)

Edit: Class page is now up to date with everything I previously made for it and I’m now into the first revision stage.

[Yakk]

Subclasses:
Bloodthirsty and Champion should be subclasses. With some feature.

Florishes:
Don't replicate the Psionic screwup.

Roll back number of points you get significantly. Have low level flourishes scale.

Make the cost be 1 plus the number of times you've used the flourish since the last rest; this will encourage using multiple flourishes.

Next, triggering saving throws is not how 4e works in general.

Finally, these are all single-target control.

Weapon Aptitude:
It might be more fun if you had proficiency with all superior weapons, and not have that much balance impact. This could also be a subclass feature.

Powers:
Blood in the Water
-1 penalty is so small I wouldn't track it.

Two-weapon attacks should generally use two weapons.

Charging Minotaur:
Tide of Iron, no shield or size restriction, works on a charge, -str damage.

---

So part of 4e class design is to work out how it interacts with the battle map, and develop a mini-game for the class to be involved in.

Traditionally controllers have a mini-game of changing the terrain and messing with enemy positioning.

Defenders try to interpose themselves and protect allies.

Many strikers have a positional mini game.

Leaders have a bunch of close-range friendly effects that mean they want to carefully position themselves relative to allies.

I'm not seeing this here. You need a central mini-game for the Warblade.

---

Justifying zones for a martial controller is a bit tricky, but I think I could do it.

Imagine if the Warblade was a setup-and-execute class. On turn 1 you setup a zone. On turn 1+X, if an enemy is in the zone you can execute a nasty maneuver on them.

For example, Charging Minotaur might be a move action that places a token on a foe. On your next turn, if the foe is far enough away, you can charge the creature with the token with devastating effectiveness; the enemy is basically compelled to move closer to you to save its own skin.

Imagine a controller that controls enemy movement not by forced movement, but by applying constant catch-22s. And if the enemy triggers the catch-22, the punishment is the controller running up and destroying the foe.

Blood in the Water: force bloodied foes to run away. You deal Str damage in a CB1. If any of them are within 3 squares at the start of your next turn, you can [insert punishing attack].

This setup-and-deliver can also be used to justify powerful single-target control. Imagine if you have to hit round 1, place token on the foe which lets you make a followup attack.

Montain Tombstone: [Poise Setup] Deals +[W] damage. Once before the end of the encounter you may:
Mountain Tomestone Strike: [Poise Strike] Standard Action, Str vs Fortitude, [W]+Str damage and target is blinded and deafened (EONT).

Poise Setups cannot be used on Poise Strikes. Only one Poise Setup can be used on any weapon power, and can only be used on a single creature hit.

That is an example of a mini-game we could use here.

Threat Techniques are move-action setup, standard-action attacks on a later turn.

Threat Technques are at-will.

Poise Techniques are riders on hits, standard-action attack later.

Poise Techniques are encounter resources. They cost 1 point for the first use in an encounter, 2 for the 2nd, 3 for the third, etc.

Now you just need a "hook" for daily powers. What makes a Warblade daily power different?

Wardens have their polymoph forms, Barbarians their rages.

As an idea, they could be stances with starters and finishers. You use the Warblade stance, and it has an effect. You can "finish" it for a boost to the effect.

Death from Above
Standard Action
Effect: You jump your speed and do not provoke opportunity attacks from the movement, then make an attack
Close Burst 3
Targets: Any creature adjacent to you within the burst during this action.
Attack: Str vs Fort, main or off hand. Once you have hit once with a weapon, you cannot attack again with it.
Hit: [W]+Strength, push the target Wisdom squares (min 1)
Effect: You enter the Whirlwind of Death stance. While you are in the stance, you may slide 1 any enemy who starts their turn within 3 turns of you as a free action, and you deal +[W] damage on the first weapon hit on them before the end of your next turn.
Finisher: As a Move Action, you repeat the Death From Above jump and attack, but exit the stance instead of entering it.

Too complex, but I hope you get the idea. You jump in, deal some damage and some control, get an aura, then consume the aura to deal more damage.


---

As written it looks like a "I'll poach random mechanics from 3e warblade, and make them controllery". I'm trying to say not that the above is what you need to do, but rather to make it a 4e class you need to think about *what its gameplay is about*.

Give it a mechanical hook that induces gameplay minigames that you want.

Don't simply spew out power translations.

A class with exactly 1 daily power at each level that is tight is a better bit of homebrew than a class with a pile of poorly designed powers. The class with 1 solid power is playable and fun. The class with a pile of powers may be playable or fun if lucky.

Maybe 1 power per subclass, if you build 2 subclasses. But consider creating 1 subclass only to start; again, the goal is playable and fun, replay value can appear later.

[MinotaurWarblad]

- Snipped -

I feel like I understand what you mean. Thanks so much for the advice; it’s making me completely rethink how I conceptualize this class and its currently-lackluster core mechanics. I love the idea of catch-22s as a control effect; I’d thought of something similar before and attributed that more to a defender role, but the way you explained the “mini-game” thing just now has refined the image of each role in my mind. Thanks again!

Extra note: Charging Minotaur’s move option can be used on a charge, but not the standard option.