Would you play a caster in this setting?

[Boci]

So I'm working on slowly converting the world of the book series Malazan Book of the Fallen into a D&D setting. There are some details that whilst I imagine fans of the series will enjoy, I do wonder how non-fans would react. Specifically:

1. Otataral: This rare, reddish ore negates magic. Someone wielding an otataral sword, or wearing armour made entirely or primarily from otataral, or otherwise carrying a large amount (at least 10lbs) of the substance will be immune to magic, and undo or impede the magic and spell casting by their mere presence. 10 or more lbs of otataral will automatically dispel any ongoing magical effect within 10ft, and spellcasters will find any magical attempts countered. Spellcasters within within 15-30ft will instead need to make a DC 15 concentration save to cast a spell, and those within 15-20ft will have disadvantage on this.
Otataral is rare, but by no means legendary. High ranking officers of the Malazan Empire's military will often carry it in the forms of armour or a sword, and military units will sometimes be equipped with otataral manacles, which will suppress a caster's power as long as it is worn. Exceptionally skilled and/or wealthy alchemist can get their hands on it, and others can purchase it, if they have half a million or so in gold burning a hole in their pocket. Strategically important settlements of the Empire can sometimes have otataral infused walls, to protect them against magical assaults.

2. Perils of the Warrens: Magic users cast their spells through their warrens, and usually this works reliable, but sometimes monumental events can interfere. In the 12,872nd year of Burn's Sleep, a hoard of malicious shapeshifting creatures known as soletaken and d'ivers converged on the seven cities subcontinent, using the warrens as a means of travel. As a result, for several months mages on the subcontinent could not access their spells without risking the summon of such creatures, and this tended to end poorly for the mages. Several unknowing magic users met their end at a soletaken's claws or fangs before the convergence was noted and the mage's learned caution, needing to use magic only in the direst of circumstances, though a clever few rediscovered old ways of magic, from before the warrens, retaining a small sliver of the magic they could command. Eventually the hoard moved on. They were seeking something, but what it was and if they ever found it, is unknown.

Two years later, on the Genabackis continent, the Painon Seer, Herald of the Chained God, flooded the warrens with a corrupting energy, that made travel through them, and their use to cast spells a taxing prospect to all mages across the continent. Casting spells assaulted the mages body, as the corrupting energy rode in on the energy needed to cast their spell, they were limited to a handful before they were weakened, and then needed to rest and recover, risk greater debilitation or even death if they continued to cast. Within a few weeks, the gods and ascendants were able to cleanse the warrens, and thwart the Chained God's plan.

So, would you play a spell caster in such a setting, or read those rules/lore and decide on martial only characters for you?

[JackPhoenix]

What's a warren?

[Arkhios]

What's a warren?

Apparently "The system of burrows where rabbits live."

[hymer]

So, would you play a spell caster in such a setting, or read those rules/lore and decide on martial only characters for you?
I would ask some clarifying questions first. Does otataral only affect spells, or does it affect all magic? Because most classes and subclasses use magic in one form or another. And then there are magical items.
I would also like to coordinate with the party on this issue. If I'm the only spellcaster in a party of swashbuckler rogues and champion fighters, I don't want to take away from their ability to get some otataral for themselves.

As for the second part, I'd be very dubious if it involves any random rolling. If it is basically DM's prerogative, then I have no problem with it. Or if I do turn out to have problems, I know where and how to address the issue.

[Tiadoppler]

Disclaimer: I am unfamiliar with this series/setting, so my advice may not follow the series' concept that well.

1: Magic Kryptonite sounds like a fun idea. I'd make sure that the rules for the effects are consistent and scale so that your spellcasters aren't necessarily completely shut down by any otataral (not fun for them). For example:


Otataral pricing: 50,000gp / lb? 25,000gp / lb?

0-1 lbs of Otataral: No effect
1-2 lbs of Otataral: The wearer has advantage on repeated saving throws against spell effects
2-5 lbs of Otataral: The wearer has advantage on saving throws against spell effects and resistance to damage from spells
5-10 lbs of Otataral: The wearer has advantage on saving throws against spell effects and resistance to damage from spells, and is immune to the effects of spells of level 3 and below.
10-20 lbs of Otataral: The wearer and any other creatures within 5' have advantage on saving throws against spell effects and resistance to damage from spells, and are immune to the effects of spells of level 6 and below.
20-40 lbs of Otataral: The wearer is immune to the effects of spells. There is a permanent Antimagic Field centered on you, and extending 10' away from you.


I just don't know exactly how powerful this stuff's supposed to be, so the numbers will need tweaking. These effects will modify the CR of encounters a lot, and provide lots of wealth to a successful party, so be cautious with it.


2:

a clever few rediscovered old ways of magic, from before the warrens, retaining a small sliver of the magic they could command.

I would let players play one of these characters: it gives a great excuse for why they're starting at level 1, and a good reason for them to have no negative consequences to casting. You can fill the campaign world with more powerful spellcasters who risk attracting demons with every spell, but the PCs don't have to deal with that.

In 5e, spellcasting is pretty well balanced with martials (for the most part, excluding specific exploits). If you nerf player spellcasting, or make it risky, you have unbalanced the game, and martials will be the clearly superior choice.

[Wildarm]

Well, as long as players know ahead of time, I don't see it being a huge problem. There are plenty of beasts that are difficult to effect with magic. Devils for example are resistant to non-magical weapons and have advantage on saves vs magic. They make a casters life difficult but that's why you have a team of mixed martial and magic characters. A balanced team should be able to handle Otataral assuming it's not common. Just make sure you don't throw entire encounters at the group where it's "not fun" to be a caster.

The bigger concern for me balance wise is when the pure marshal players start getting Otataral weapons and armor. Your GWM and SS marshals are going to decimate any boss you throw at them even if they cannot be buffed themselves. They cannot be healed by magic which can make things tricky. Still Barbarians can easily hold their own without magic or healing during a fight, as can most fighter builds.

The counter to a strong martial force is often magic which doesn't effect them now. Now all you can do as a DM is throw bodies at them. Unless all those bodies are wielding Otataral(unlikely) the casters will have no issues spamming fireballs down on your marshals. They are immune to it anyway.

[JackPhoenix]

Apparently "The system of burrows where rabbits live."

Of course. Should've asked "What's a warren in this context". If the spellcaster had to crawl inside rabbit hole to be able to cast spells, the adventuring options would be pretty limited

[zlefin]

My primary concern would be the prospect of, at higher levels, most enemies being immune to magic.
That would also depend on the extent to which magic can be used to make non-magic attacks, like throwing rocks; and how many of those are available, along with their efficacy.
Given the range of Ototaral, it would interfere with buffing allies in melee; but buffing ranged allies would still work fine, as long as enemies don't get close.

The other big concern is consistency: the special events in the warrens seem to be unusual. As such you're left in an odd spot balance-wise: your magic MIGHT have a huge drawback, for months at a time, or it might not. And it could change in the middle of a campaign, thus hugely affecting your characters viability. That's more problematic than magic that has a high, but consistent, cost to use.

[Sigreid]

I probably wouldn't be interested in the setting at all to be honest. Mostly because it seems to be full of nuances that would be annoying and difficult to navigate for a person not familiar with the setting.

[Rafaelfras]

I hate anti-magic stuff, with passion. It can be interesting sometimes but if gets overused it becomes just annoyance.
Its not fun to fight against enemies that you cant do nothing time and time again or be forced to play support because you cant use attacks.
So, the setting is rich and interesting, but mind those aspects so you dont hinder casters too much

[Sariel Vailo]

So is their a magic amplifying metal or material to buff the spell caster. Also how would this effect clerics who use divine magicks or are all magicls the same in your setting.

[Yora]

The Warrens are a network of paths through a spooky dimension that can be used as shortcuts to travel between places.

My question is how this matters to spellcasters? Two instances were mentioned during which the warrens posed a hazard to spellcasters, but they both seem to have been dealt with and are no longer an issue. So this doesn't seem to have any actual impact on spellcasting characters.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The question really is:

How often are the party going to run into Otataral? Is it a once-in-a-blue-moon, hundreds-of-thousands-of-gold-for-a-small-bit sort of thing, or is it a "well, you can't get it, but all the town guards do because they work for the Empire" thing?
Are you actually going to feature a setting-wide cataclysm that messes with the player's ability to do magic?

[JNAProductions]

The question really is:

How often are the party going to run into Otataral? Is it a once-in-a-blue-moon, hundreds-of-thousands-of-gold-for-a-small-bit sort of thing, or is it a "well, you can't get it, but all the town guards do because they work for the Empire" thing?
Are you actually going to feature a setting-wide cataclysm that messes with the player's ability to do magic?


Yeah, that's the important bit.

It sounds relatively common, given what you said, which would make me "Nope" right out of playing a caster. (But at least they don't have casters either.)

[Sariel Vailo]

As someone's who has been playing bards,clerics and Eldritch knights since they started fifth eddition, this seems like the game to play a barbarian totem of resist all but psychic damage. I am putting down my lute and picking up a great axe because I fell like I'm being punished before I even pluck a string.

[FilthyLucre]

So I'm working on slowly converting the world of the book series Malazan Book of the Fallen into a D&D setting. There are some details that whilst I imagine fans of the series will enjoy, I do wonder how non-fans would react. Specifically:

1. Otataral: This rare, reddish ore negates magic. Someone wielding an otataral sword, or wearing armour made entirely or primarily from otataral, or otherwise carrying a large amount (at least 10lbs) of the substance will be immune to magic, and undo or impede the magic and spell casting by their mere presence. 10 or more lbs of otataral will automatically dispel any ongoing magical effect within 10ft, and spellcasters will find any magical attempts countered. Spellcasters within within 15-30ft will instead need to make a DC 15 concentration save to cast a spell, and those within 15-20ft will have disadvantage on this.
Otataral is rare, but by no means legendary. High ranking officers of the Malazan Empire's military will often carry it in the forms of armour or a sword, and military units will sometimes be equipped with otataral manacles, which will suppress a caster's power as long as it is worn. Exceptionally skilled and/or wealthy alchemist can get their hands on it, and others can purchase it, if they have half a million or so in gold burning a hole in their pocket. Strategically important settlements of the Empire can sometimes have otataral infused walls, to protect them against magical assaults.

2. Perils of the Warrens: Magic users cast their spells through their warrens, and usually this works reliable, but sometimes monumental events can interfere. In the 12,872nd year of Burn's Sleep, a hoard of malicious shapeshifting creatures known as soletaken and d'ivers converged on the seven cities subcontinent, using the warrens as a means of travel. As a result, for several months mages on the subcontinent could not access their spells without risking the summon of such creatures, and this tended to end poorly for the mages. Several unknowing magic users met their end at a soletaken's claws or fangs before the convergence was noted and the mage's learned caution, needing to use magic only in the direst of circumstances, though a clever few rediscovered old ways of magic, from before the warrens, retaining a small sliver of the magic they could command. Eventually the hoard moved on. They were seeking something, but what it was and if they ever found it, is unknown.

Two years later, on the Genabackis continent, the Painon Seer, Herald of the Chained God, flooded the warrens with a corrupting energy, that made travel through them, and their use to cast spells a taxing prospect to all mages across the continent. Casting spells assaulted the mages body, as the corrupting energy rode in on the energy needed to cast their spell, they were limited to a handful before they were weakened, and then needed to rest and recover, risk greater debilitation or even death if they continued to cast. Within a few weeks, the gods and ascendants were able to cleanse the warrens, and thwart the Chained God's plan.

So, would you play a spell caster in such a setting, or read those rules/lore and decide on martial only characters for you?

I would not willingly play a character whose reason d'etre can be negated by a plot element.

[Teaguethebean]

All that I think matters is how common you make the magic stopping metal

[Man_Over_Game]

You should avoid telling your players "you cannot play".

A Barbarian, locked in a cage, might find a way to break out of his cage, or threaten someone to help him break free, or use some supernatural power to escape.

A Rogue, manacled, might find a tool to break out of his chains, convince someone into aiding them, or manage to sneak away from his captors.

Mages invest into one solution: Magic. And you're removing that solution. If you want the ability to tell your players "No", then you need to offer them the means of playing anyway.


The thing with skills is that they're never an "on/off" switch. They're always relevant, on a scale. However, shutting off all magic is akin to paralyzing a Barbarian for entire stretches of a time.


This isn't a book or a movie. People don't always enjoy cutscenes and strict plots. This is a game. And people play a game to...well, play their mage. How do you expect your players to play once they're subject to these changes? I don't mean that as an attack or a rhetorical question, I'm actually asking how you'd expect a mage to be able to participate when subject to these zones or limitations?

[Tiadoppler]

I would not willingly play a character whose reason d'etre can be negated by a plot element.

I see what you did there :smallbiggrin:



I agree with the other posters: it all depends on how common the metal is. IMO, it should be no more common than other magic-resisting enemies, and the price of the material should make it exclusive to the extraordinarily wealthy, and, rarely, highly trained elite soldiers working on the behalf of a government (or super-wealthy individual).

[Boci]

Lots of responses, so if I missed a point you made repeat it and I'll try to get to it.


Of course. Should've asked "What's a warren in this context". If the spellcaster had to crawl inside rabbit hole to be able to cast spells, the adventuring options would be pretty limited

The Warrens are a series of connected pocket dimensions that collectively fuel 95% of all magic users. Since the majority of magic users share a single source, it can sometimes be disrupted, as those events I listed prove.


So is their a magic amplifying metal or material to buff the spell caster. Also how would this effect clerics who use divine magicks or are all magicls the same in your setting.

Divine and arcane is basically the same in this setting. There's a difference, but its tiny, and both will be subject equally to the two points mentioned in the OP, with a very few exceptions.


The question really is:

How often are the party going to run into Otataral? Is it a once-in-a-blue-moon, hundreds-of-thousands-of-gold-for-a-small-bit sort of thing, or is it a "well, you can't get it, but all the town guards do because they work for the Empire" thing? Are you actually going to feature a setting-wide cataclysm that messes with the player's ability to do magic?


I don't have a specific plot in mind, I'm just working on the setting, so its hard to answer the second. It might, it might not, but it is part of the setting that such events can happen.

The first also doesn't have a yes or no answer, but I can elaborate on that. No, random town guards do not have Otataral anything. Think of Otataral as an artifact, any artifact. So in almost any setting, will the players run into someone who has an artifact at some point in the game? Quite possibly. Will it happen often? Almost certainly no.


The counter to a strong martial force is often magic which doesn't effect them now. Now all you can do as a DM is throw bodies at them. Unless all those bodies are wielding Otataral(unlikely) the casters will have no issues spamming fireballs down on your marshals. They are immune to it anyway.

Yes, but so is anyone adjacent to a martial character wielding an otataral. There's also alchemy and supernatural mastery of the body, which is not magic, powerful monsters and other more extreme options an DM can use.


I probably wouldn't be interested in the setting at all to be honest. Mostly because it seems to be full of nuances that would be annoying and difficult to navigate for a person not familiar with the setting.

That is a fair criticism/comment of Book of the Fallen. What gave it away in particular?

[Sigreid]

Just what you included in the OP about the anti magic and the warrens led me to believe there's quite a bit of subtle nuance that I wouldn't be keyed in on.

[Ze_Azrael]

Otataral is fairly rare and is tightly controlled by the Empire. Only a few named people are given swords / armor of the stuff. I think since its 'natural' form is a powdery substance it's likely pretty hard to smith into non-brittle, functional items. If I remember correctly there's more instances of the powder than actual items in the series, which would be fine as the powder basically acts as a Dispel Magic consumable.
Also since most of the setting is portrayed from the perspective of the Empire, I would assume your characters are most likely a part of the Empire and as such won't be fighting against important people that carry such items like the Adjunct on the regular.

As others have pointed out, the main problem would be if a martial in the party manages to get ahold of one of these items, as it would make the caster PCs unable / unwanting to be near them.

I second the idea that having clear rules on the effects of Otataral would help.

The warrens sometimes being dangerous is more of a plot device than anything, and as such is under your control. So as a player I wouldn't worry about this one too much.

A bigger problem I see with how Malazan magic works vs 5e magic, is the fact that warrens are aspected and mages usually only have access to one warren. Something like Telas (fire) is easy as proven by all the fire draconic sorcerers, but how would you do Serc (sky)? The PC can only access flying and wind themed spells? Or the other way around, what warren would something like Spirit Guardians belong to?
Just the fact that a mage would be restricted in theme and choice of spells would require a lot of buy in by your players.

And what about travel through the warrens? Can players choose an Elder Warren, or spirit magic? How about Druids? The way shifting works in 5e is very different to Soletaken / D'ivers. Etc.

The Malazan world started as an RPG game. I think it might actually have been D&D but it might have been a different, better suited system. Anyways you should be able to find more details on this, maybe there's interviews or something that talk about this. I would start there.

[GlenSmash!]

No, I'd build a Karsa Orlong character and wreck faces.

I actually would use something like 3.5e or Gurps for a Malazan setting. The anti magic stuff helps to balance a system we're mages are absolutely dominant over martials.

And while I think in 5e casters have an edge over martials, it's not that bad of a difference to implement anti magic and unstable magic systems.

[Boci]

A bigger problem I see with how Malazan magic works vs 5e magic, is the fact that warrens are aspected and mages usually only have access to one warren. Something like Telas (fire) is easy as proven by all the fire draconic sorcerers, but how would you do Serc (sky)? The PC can only access flying and wind themed spells? Or the other way around, what warren would something like Spirit Guardians belong to?
Just the fact that a mage would be restricted in theme and choice of spells would require a lot of buy in by your players.

I think you're misremembering how magic works. There are warren spells, but its very strongly implied there are general spells availablew to all mages reguardless of their warren.


And what about travel through the warrens?

Yes, that is part of the setting.


Can players choose an Elder Warren, or spirit magic?

No Elder warren at the start most likely (though chaos and perhaps Kurald Shadow could be worked towards), spirit magic can be chosen, its a seperate class.


How about Druids? The way shifting works in 5e is very different to Soletaken / D'ivers. Etc.

Part of the magic system would be the traditional casting classes don't exist, so there is no druid. Soletaken will be a class though.


No, I'd build a Karsa Orlong character and wreck faces.

Yes because Toblakai are totally playable right alonside "children" and "wierd looking children". :smallbiggrin:

[Ze_Azrael]

I think you're misremembering how magic works. There are warren spells, but its very strongly implied there are general spells availablew to all mages reguardless of their warren.

Hmm I'm pretty sure it's called out that most mages only have access to a single Warren and the spells they use are all shaping that Warren's aspected energy. Light spoilers for the whole series:
When it's called that a given person has one Warren as "their" Warren, then they pretty much only use spells from that Warren. For example Sinn only uses fire, Mallet only ever heals, Pust and Apsalar use shadow, that Crimson Guard mage that only uses Mockra, Korbal Broach and other necromancers only use Hood's (though the particular powers of some Warrens like this one can be more ambiguous), etc.
Sure, some mages like Quick Ben, Beak or Bottle can do a lot more, but they're special and have access to more than one Warren (or type of magic).
However I do remember the Bonehunters teaching each other Meanas and Mockra spells when invading Lether, but that seemed to be extremely taxing to most mages. Also I think there was a mage from the 14 or something that learnt a Ruse spell from another mage? So I guess there is precedent to be able to learn and use different Warren spells. Plus the fact that spells aren't ever actually named, and that it seems possible for most mages to just send a wave of destructive "blasty" magic regardless of their Warren, leaves things ambiguous enough.
And you could always lean on the "shaping your Warren's energy" and reflavor spells accordingly. If all your mages want to learn Fireball, it can be described as a psychic blast for Mockra or a burst of icy cold water for Ruse... It gets harder for some spells like Invisibility but that could always be restricted to certain Warrens.


No Elder warren at the start most likely (though chaos and perhaps Kurald Shadow could be worked towards), spirit magic can be chosen, its a seperate class.

Do note that racial Warrens are pretty exclusive to their respective races. I can only think of one human using K. Galain, and one Omtose Phellack, but again, special snowflakes.



Part of the magic system would be the traditional casting classes don't exist, so there is no druid. Soletaken will be a class though.

This makes sense. And to answer your title question, you seem to be putting enough thought into this, and as long as you're clear with the players at the start about the likelihood of encountering Otataral (will we be spending a lot of time in Otataral island? is the goal to kill the Empress/Emperor? etc), then yes; I would play a caster in this setting.

[Boci]

Hmm I'm pretty sure it's called out that most mages only have access to a single Warren and the spells they use are all shaping that Warren's aspected energy.

I don't think so. Remeber when Kalam finds the mage at the sieged keep in House of Chains? He says "Get rid of their water". He's just met the mage, and has no idea which warren they use, and yet seems fairly certain the mage can get rid of the water, and he can. That strongly impliers there are are things every mage can do, and there are several other lines like that. Heboric also told Felisin that they would need someone of High Denul to heal the pockmarks left by those horror insects, again strongly implying other mages could heal, but only High Denul could heal wounds like that. As for Sinn remember she was going to trick the renegades into believe she'd blown a hole into the wall with an illusion, and told Kalam she had been practising, so she clearly could use other magic besides fire.


This makes sense. And to answer your title question, you seem to be putting enough thought into this, and as long as you're clear with the players at the start about the likelihood of encountering Otataral (will we be spending a lot of time in Otataral island? is the goal to kill the Empress/Emperor? etc), then yes; I would play a caster in this setting.

That will depend on the specific game and the players, I don't have a specific plot in mind at this stage.

[Demonslayer666]

Hearing only that, I could not say yes right away, but would still consider it. I would have lots of questions on the anti-magic ore. Specifically how often it will nerf my abilities to cast, can I detect it ahead of time so I don't waste spells, is there a cure? I'd want an exact cost associated with it. It would seem like every BBEG would have this.

[MaxWilson]

I don't think so. Remeber when Kalam finds the mage at the sieged keep in House of Chains? He says "Get rid of their water". He's just met the mage, and has no idea which warren they use, and yet seems fairly certain the mage can get rid of the water, and he can. That strongly impliers there are are things every mage can do, and there are several other lines like that. Heboric also told Felisin that they would need someone of High Denul to heal the pockmarks left by those horror insects, again strongly implying other mages could heal, but only High Denul could heal wounds like that. As for Sinn remember she was going to trick the renegades into believe she'd blown a hole into the wall with an illusion, and told Kalam she had been practising, so she clearly could use other magic besides fire.

Bottom line: Steven Erikson never explains anything, and everything from timeline to the structure of magic to the actual capabilities of the mythic characters like Karsa and Mael is inconsistent from book to book. Erikson is an amateur painter, and the books are best enjoyed as the dramatic equivalent of a series of loosely-connected paintings of Awesome Moments from Erikson's head, with recurring characters and themes but no rules but the Rule of Cool.

I really, really enjoyed Memories of Ice, and I read the other books up through Reaper's Gale, plus some of ICE's books and the first bit of Forge of Darkness, but 5E just isn't a good system to simulate Malazan stories in because 5E is all about the rules (game rules and predictable rules of magic) and Malazan stories are all about whatever happens to strike the storyteller as cool at the moment. Law vs. chaos, in a sense. I can imagine it being a good setting for an effects-based storytelling game like FATE, because then you wouldn't have to worry about how Anomander Rake's magic works, you just say "He's a powerful mage," and when you need something powerful done you just think of a way to flavor the effect as somehow Darkness-aspected and then it happens.

[Tiadoppler]

Part of the magic system would be the traditional casting classes don't exist, so there is no druid. Soletaken will be a class though.

If you're also rewriting all of the caster classes, you have the opportunity to make them integrate with the antimagic metal/warrens of power, but you're also sort of departing from the area where anonymous online people can give you good advice.

If your premise is that there will be no traditional spellcasting classes, only custom ones, I would suggest writing a rough draft of those classes before asking for feedback on 'would you play a caster in this setting?" What caster options are available, if you're not using 5e classes?

[Man_Over_Game]

Bottom line: Steven Erikson never explains anything, and everything from timeline to the structure of magic to the actual capabilities of the mythic characters like Karsa and Mael is inconsistent from book to book. Erikson is an amateur painter, and the books are best enjoyed as the dramatic equivalent of a series of loosely-connected paintings of Awesome Moments from Erikson's head, with recurring characters and themes but no rules but the Rule of Cool.

I really, really enjoyed Memories of Ice, and I read the other books up through Reaper's Gale, plus some of ICE's books and the first bit of Forge of Darkness, but 5E just isn't a good system to simulate Malazan stories in because 5E is all about the rules (game rules and predictable rules of magic) and Malazan stories are all about whatever happens to strike the storyteller as cool at the moment. Law vs. chaos, in a sense. I can imagine it being a good setting for an effects-based storytelling game like FATE, because then you wouldn't have to worry about how Anomander Rake's magic works, you just say "He's a powerful mage," and when you need something powerful done you just think of a way to flavor the effect as somehow Darkness-aspected and then it happens.

This is a really good point.

The reason something like Anti-magic field is valid is because:

It's extremely expensive (Level 8)
It hinders the user (its centered on the caster)
It's difficult to use (10ft radius)
It can easily be ended early (Concentration)


Because of all these, there are many ways that a caster can deal with it, including just moving 10 feet. What's being described is something much more beyond that. Players need to be able to interact with the changes around them. Antimagic field has several weaknesses that even a caster can take advantage of (at least, to avoid become useless themselves). But a rock or a set of manacles? How many solutions would a full level caster expect to have up his sleeves that work around that?

Something like DnD is very goal-oriented. There's a problem, so the players must solve it. That's an inherent part of the game.

Something like FATE is less reliant on goals. Heck, players often make their own problems, just to make things more interesting. There's no real goal, only the narrative, and so it's nearly impossible to impede on playing the game.

[Boci]

Hearing only that, I could not say yes right away, but would still consider it. I would have lots of questions on the anti-magic ore. Specifically how often it will nerf my abilities to cast, can I detect it ahead of time so I don't waste spells, is there a cure? I'd want an exact cost associated with it. It would seem like every BBEG would have this.

"How often" is hard to tell from the setting alone without a specific game in mind, the cure though is to move away from the Otataral. As long as you don't rub the dust into your skin there should be no long term effects. For detecting it, it registers under detect magic as a void with no background trace which you would expect to find literally anywhere else from the middle of a forest to the depth of the ocean to a bustling street. Spellcasters can feel Otataral when they try and target it or cast a spell in its vicinity. I could be argued if they aren't familiar with the substance they won't know what to make of the sensation beyond just feeling bad, but it could just as easily be argued the bad feeling will be enough to tip them off.

As for every BBEG having it, again the artifact example. Does every BBEG want an artifact? Probably, they're cool. Does every BBEG get an artifact? Not neccissarily, they are rare and hard to come by.


If your premise is that there will be no traditional spellcasting classes, only custom ones, I would suggest writing a rough draft of those classes before asking for feedback on 'would you play a caster in this setting?" What caster options are available, if you're not using 5e classes?

That's not too relevant for the purpose of answering the question in the OP. Yes, the casting classes will be different, but they will not fair any better than the traditional classes against someone wielding an otataral blade, so may as well use them and only focus on one new variable, rather than also needing to balance reworking casting classes in the equation as well.


Bottom line: Steven Erikson never explains anything, and everything from timeline to the structure of magic to the actual capabilities of the mythic characters like Karsa and Mael is inconsistent from book to book. Erikson is an amateur painter, and the books are best enjoyed as the dramatic equivalent of a series of loosely-connected paintings of Awesome Moments from Erikson's head, with recurring characters and themes but no rules but the Rule of Cool.

I really, really enjoyed Memories of Ice, and I read the other books up through Reaper's Gale, plus some of ICE's books and the first bit of Forge of Darkness, but 5E just isn't a good system to simulate Malazan stories in because 5E is all about the rules (game rules and predictable rules of magic) and Malazan stories are all about whatever happens to strike the storyteller as cool at the moment. Law vs. chaos, in a sense. I can imagine it being a good setting for an effects-based storytelling game like FATE, because then you wouldn't have to worry about how Anomander Rake's magic works, you just say "He's a powerful mage," and when you need something powerful done you just think of a way to flavor the effect as somehow Darkness-aspected and then it happens.

I think you're being blinded by focusing on the awesome characters. That's understandable, they are a fairly integral part of the series, but not for what I'm doing. This is not about making a setting where players can construct their own Karsa, Quickben or Rake. You can't, any more than you can play Elminster in FR. Remove the awesome character and suddenly the world becomes a lot more consistent and D&D compatible.

[Sariel Vailo]

So let's put a pole up in here any body who mains a full or half caster in DND 5e at the moment. Would you be a caster in this setting.
I say I would not be a caster if I even considered this setting as something I'd play in.

[Rukelnikov]

I wouldn't be discouraged by the settings rules, or the presence of the metal. I'd likely play a mad scientist Wizard, very likely a Necro, do experiments with the metal, and then come up with strategies against those wearing such, and have strategies using it for my own advantage, like for instance animating mummies and equipping them with armor taken from imperial scum, so that their resistance to damage can't be bypassed, or crafting golems, and equipping them with weapons of that material too.

AMF metal arrows would be dope too, if you hit an enemy wizard with them they are impaired to cast, something heavier like a dagger could work better, throw a dagger targeting a 5 foot space near a Wizard

Take into account, though, that a Lycanthrope with a such an armor would be effectively immune to physical damage attacks, save for artifacts (unless the metal affects those too)


The question really is:

How often are the party going to run into Otataral? Is it a once-in-a-blue-moon, hundreds-of-thousands-of-gold-for-a-small-bit sort of thing, or is it a "well, you can't get it, but all the town guards do because they work for the Empire" thing?
Are you actually going to feature a setting-wide cataclysm that messes with the player's ability to do magic?


As some who plays DnD primarily on Faerun, this has happened to me twice already, first with the death of Mystra and then the Spellplague(also the death of Mystra), so it wouldn't be something that outlandish.

[Sigreid]

Random thought here. You might consider the antimagic ore as having kind of an automatic counterspell if it's within the area of a spell or magical effect, with the spell strength based on how much of it is present and how it's used/concentrated. That would let it still be a major setting thing without it being any kind of an I win button.

[MaxWilson]

I think you're being blinded by focusing on the awesome characters. That's understandable, they are a fairly integral part of the series, but not for what I'm doing. This is not about making a setting where players can construct their own Karsa, Quickben or Rake. You can't, any more than you can play Elminster in FR. Remove the awesome character and suddenly the world becomes a lot more consistent and D&D compatible.

Does it? I still can't figure out what the warrens are really about or what they are usable for, even by regular mages like Claw assassins, besides "whatever Steven Erikson feels like at the moment". Erikson is the polar opposite of Brandon Sanderson or Jim Butcher.


So let's put a pole up in here any body who mains a full or half caster in DND 5e at the moment. Would you be a caster in this setting.
I say I would not be a caster if I even considered this setting as something I'd play in.

I'm DMing more than playing, but I'll answer anyway because I enjoy playing more than DMing.

Would I play a spellcaster in a campaign where there are occasional severe restrictions on magic? Sure. I would also play one in a setting where, as per the Dresden Files, you can't use magic inside someone else's home unless you're invited. I wouldn't play exclusively spellcasters, and (just like Harry Dresden does) I would stock up on nonmagical backup options like the Mobile feat, but the existence of otataral wouldn't particularly deter me from playing a spellcaster unless everyone else in the party was already playing a wizard or bard--I would feel that we needed at least one warrior for insurance.

[2D8HP]

...would you play a spell caster in such a setting, or read those rules/lore and decide on martial only characters for you?


I'd be much more inclined to play mostly "Martials", because that's already my inclination as "The 7th Yoyage of Sinbad" movie and "Conan" comics imprinted on me more strongly than "The Wizard of Earthsea" book and "Dr. Strange" comics, and even in "Stormbringer", while the protagonist was a magician, the antagonists was one as well, and the general gist was "magic brings doom".

Besides, after a couple of spells or "Cantrips" I just find the 5e rules of playing a spellcaster too much to keep track of (but I'm also more likely to play a "Champion" Fighter than a "Battlemaster" one).

[GlenSmash!]

Does it? I still can't figure out what the warrens are really about or what they are usable for, even by regular mages like Claw assassins, besides "whatever Steven Erikson feels like at the moment". Erikson is the polar opposite of Brandon Sanderson or Jim Butcher.



I'm DMing more than playing, but I'll answer anyway because I enjoy playing more than DMing.

Would I play a spellcaster in a campaign where there are occasional severe restrictions on magic? Sure. I would also play one in a setting where, as per the Dresden Files, you can't use magic inside someone else's home unless you're invited. I wouldn't play exclusively spellcasters, and (just like Harry Dresden does) I would stock up on nonmagical backup options like the Mobile feat, but the existence of otataral wouldn't particularly deter me from playing a spellcaster unless everyone else in the party was already playing a wizard or bard--I would feel that we needed at least one warrior for insurance.

Oh Harry totally took the Mobile Feat. Smart guy that Dresden.

[Boci]

I wouldn't be discouraged by the settings rules, or the presence of the metal. I'd likely play a mad scientist Wizard, very likely a Necro, do experiments with the metal, and then come up with strategies against those wearing such, and have strategies using it for my own advantage, like for instance animating mummies and equipping them with armor taken from imperial scum, so that their resistance to damage can't be bypassed, or crafting golems, and equipping them with weapons of that material too.

That sounds like a very fun character, though it is unlikely they would be able to find enough otataral to equip multiple mummies with armour made primarily of the stuff.


AMF metal arrows would be dope too, if you hit an enemy wizard with them they are impaired to cast, something heavier like a dagger could work better, throw a dagger targeting a 5 foot space near a Wizard

Yes, otataral arrows could work (though that does bring up the ugly meat point debate), the dagger will, though mages can just move away from the square you threw it into.


Take into account, though, that a Lycanthrope with a such an armor would be effectively immune to physical damage attacks, save for artifacts (unless the metal affects those too).

How does otataral armour make a lycanthrope immune to silver weapons? And yes, artifacts would likely not be suppressed by otataral either, though regular magic weapons would be.


Random thought here. You might consider the antimagic ore as having kind of an automatic counterspell if it's within the area of a spell or magical effect, with the spell strength based on how much of it is present and how it's used/concentrated. That would let it still be a major setting thing without it being any kind of an I win button.

That's an idea, but its not how otataral works in the setting, and I do want to see how people would take to a purer representation. Fans of the book, as I predicted, seem fine with it, and so do several non-fans it seems.

[Sigreid]

Sure. It was just a random thought of some rando on the internet for a way to make quantity matter.

[allthingslich]

I'm always a big fan of playing the underdog, overcoming challenges and playing the "gimped" character, so yes I would play one. Perhaps I'd go the divine route though, so as to rely upon favors from the gods to override the harsh effects (vs. magic) of the world.

[Particle_Man]

Is this metal vulnerable to rust monsters?

Anyhow I would probably play a non caster in this campaign. If I play a spell caster it is because I actually want to cast spells, not because I want to wear a pointed hat with the word “Wizzard” on it and watch other people swing swords while I hide.

[Rukelnikov]

How does otataral armour make a lycanthrope immune to silver weapons? And yes, artifacts would likely not be suppressed by otataral either, though regular magic weapons would be.

lol, you're right, forgot about the silvered weapons.


Is this metal vulnerable to rust monsters?

That's the kind of questions I'd try to answer in game with my mad wizard.

[thereaper]

Given the sorts of tricks that high level casters can pull off, this seems pretty fair. It's a very 3.5 way of solving the problems with casters, but it works.

[Teaguethebean]

I wouldn't touch a caster as I would know you are gonna give that stuff to the bbeg

[MaxWilson]

I wouldn't touch a caster as I would know you are gonna give that stuff to the bbeg

Hahaha, this is Malazan--you're going to wind up fighting to SAVE the BBEG, and there will be a confusing subplot about a dragon made entirely out of the anti-magic metal, but that dragon will probably be killed by NPCs anyway.

[Spriteless]

I would play a partial caster, like an Arcane Trickster, a Paladin, or a multiclass. I would pick my skills carefully, instead of picking them for flavor, and would be able to do things without magic, but still have limited options when the plot says so.

But then, I find the idea of being handicapped sometimes (but not all times) very dramatic. If a system has flaws, I make sure to take flaws that might come into play. Very memorable.

[dragoeniex]

I would shy away from my favorite classes if told odds were good they'd be worth very little in climactic fights and plot beats. And I say that as someone who enjoys it when a PC (mine or otherwise) becomes the load for a fight once in a blue moon. Sick or mentally fried friend needs to be protected while they're useless? Whoo- drama!

The main difference to me is coming in with an expectation. This is a thing that will happen. It may happen rarely, but they'll likely all be important moments.

Legendary saves already force different strategies against big foes. Throw in immunity for the couple of nearby mooks and the ability to passively buzz casters out of concentrating on whatever environment or ally-affecting alternative they've switched to, and that's insanely frustrating. It's coming in knowing you'll be knee-capped when things hit the fan.

Why not tweak the properties slightly?

Let the material come in two varieties. When worked one way, wearers with enough are immune to the direct influence of magic-- just them. An exceptionally well-plated individual might be able to shield one creature next to them as well.

Worked another way, the material grants that area-based concentration detriment. This is something that offers a (usualy) lesser protection to a broader area, and it encourages a markedly different kind of play from casters than the former.

Have it so these two magnetically repulse each other or something. An enemy with access needs to choose which is going to be the biggest boon for this venture. As for the heroes, waiting to follow an immunity-clad foe back to his encampement- where he'll switch gear to mesh with its concentration defenses- could be exciting.

Even if you intend the material to be Blue Moon level rarity, I agree it should be something mage players are left with options to face.

[MaxWilson]

Let the material come in two varieties. When worked one way, wearers with enough are immune to the direct influence of magic-- just them. An exceptionally well-plated individual might be able to shield one creature next to them as well.


Karsa Orlong. :) His Teblor blood oil works exactly this way, IIRC, and turns out to have otataral as a component.



Even if you intend the material to be Blue Moon level rarity, I agree it should be something mage players are left with options to face.

It could just be that legendary PCs gain access to Elder Warrens eventually, which totally ignore otataral for reasons that aren't completely clear. It's not like that doesn't happen frequently in the books. Pretty much every mage character winds up a High Mage of some sort or another. Otataral, and chaotic warren corruption, only ever affect lesser mages. You could use it to explain why the PCs don't have an army of NPCs helping them.

[Arkhios]

Is this metal vulnerable to rust monsters?

Anyhow I would probably play a non caster in this campaign. If I play a spell caster it is because I actually want to cast spells, not because I want to wear a pointed hat with the word “Wizzard” on it and watch other people swing swords while I hide.

That literally made me laugh! (Not only because I would do that out of spite)

Slightly related, a friend of mine played a character (a pure rogue, in fact) who posed himself as a mighty wizard. This was in Pathfinder where there are these mundane items: Spring-loaded Wrist Sheaths, that let you hide small items inside them, and draw them as a swift action (in 5th edition that would probably count as Bonus Action).

This Charlatan-Would-Be-Wizard would then hide daggers inside those wrist-sheaths, draw them seemingly out of nowhere, throw them, and tell everyone it was a magic missile (a dagger with strength +1 even deals same amount of damage as one magic missile) :smallbiggrin:

The fun thing about it was that it was 100% legit and worked by RAW (except, obviously the part that dagger ≠ magic missile)

Other than that, he would use Use Magic Device (a skill) to cast spells from scrolls, wands, etc.

[Boci]

I'm always a big fan of playing the underdog, overcoming challenges and playing the "gimped" character, so yes I would play one. Perhaps I'd go the divine route though, so as to rely upon favors from the gods to override the harsh effects (vs. magic) of the world.

Divine and arcane casters are very similar in this setting, so the difference likely wouldn't be much.


Is this metal vulnerable to rust monsters?

It a non-magical metal, so it should be.


Why not tweak the properties slightly?

That is certainly an idea, but I do want to see how people would respond to a pure representation of otataral. Its mixed, which is did expect, but there are people who are not fans of thebook and yet seem fine playing a caster in such a setting, which is good to know. Still, it wouldn't hurt to have some varient otataral rules though, as several posters have stated they won't play casters under the stronger otataral rules.


I wouldn't touch a caster as I would know you are gonna give that stuff to the bbeg

No, that isn't a given, not in my games at least.


It could just be that legendary PCs gain access to Elder Warrens eventually, which totally ignore otataral for reasons that aren't completely clear. It's not like that doesn't happen frequently in the books. Pretty much every mage character winds up a High Mage of some sort or another. Otataral, and chaotic warren corruption, only ever affect lesser mages. You could use it to explain why the PCs don't have an army of NPCs helping them.

Players should not expect to gain access to elder magic. This game is about the setting, not the awesome NPCs who regularly break the rules of the setting.

[Sigreid]

Players should not expect to gain access to elder magic. This game is about the setting, not the awesome NPCs who regularly break the rules of the setting.

If I knew it were possible, even if it wasn't likely I would find the setting much more appealing as that would give me a goal for a caster and a reason for him to push his limits with a steam shovel.

[MaxWilson]

Players should not expect to gain access to elder magic. This game is about the setting, not the awesome NPCs who regularly break the rules of the setting.

The relationship between Elder warrens and otataral is part of the setting though, and will influence player perceptions of how unfair otataral is. Just knowing that it has limits will affect e.g. whether they expect BBEGs to always have some on hand, or how much they desire to acquire otataral swords for themselves.

BTW it's the author who breaks the inferred rules of the setting, not the NPCs. (They're probably PCs anyway.) It's not like it's Tavore's fault after all that Erikson makes her otataral sword inexplicably potent.


If I knew it were possible, even if it wasn't likely I would find the setting much more appealing as that would give me a goal for a caster and a reason for him to push his limits with a steam shovel.

For the record, in the books otataral is never used by any bad guys that I can think of. Chaotic warren corruption *is* used by a powerful "bad guy" (who turns out to be not exactly a bad guy per se) but he is an Elder mage himself, basically a prehistoric orc (Erikson's orcs are very magical and almost unkillable, mostly, except when they aren't) and even then it's probably best modeled as "whenever you cast a spell make a Sanity save or take (spell level) x 3d6 damage" because spellcasting is just dangerous, not suicidal, and powerful mages keep right on casting.

[Telok]

I'd have no objections but I am already familiar with the setting (have some idea about how often these things actually come up in the books presentation of the world) and I have played casters in AD&D and other games where you occasionally run across magic immune critters. Neither is a deal breaker unless the DM makes me roll lots of checks to do anything but cast spells.

[Boci]

If I knew it were possible, even if it wasn't likely I would find the setting much more appealing as that would give me a goal for a caster and a reason for him to push his limits with a steam shovel.

Its not so much unlikely as basically impossible. Elder Shadow is sundered, so humans can learn from pieces of that, but its also weaker, its only half elder magic. Chaos magic can sometimes act like elder magic, and humans can learn that. But all the rest of the Elder Magic is not available to humans.

This is why I didn't mention Elder magic in the opening post, I felt it would only confuse the issue.


BTW it's the author who breaks the inferred rules of the setting, not the NPCs.

...yes, I know. The fact remains this game will be about the setting the author creates, not the abilities of the powerful characters who break the settings rules.

[Elysiume]

Without knowing the backstory I wouldn't play a caster in the setting as described. There are ways that you could circumvent the major drawbacks of magic that're introduced, but why bother? As a player, I don't like having my abilities randomly shut off. It's expected that abilities aren't always useful, but I just wouldn't bother with a class if I knew its main abilities would be useless at times that I can't control. There are some options not involving direct attack spells that would still work, but without knowing the extent to which I'd need to work around things, I'd just play a class where I knew their abilities would work in general.