What animal forms would actually be good for vampires?

[The Jack]

Picture this; You're an undead legend, you go to monster school, they teach you to turn into a wolf/bat, but you're not Wallachian, so why?

Perhaps a feline would better fit the undead form than a canid? because of your undead nature you don't need the extra stamina or the intelligence, the more carnivorous teeth are to your benefit as a blood sucker, and the specialisations of an ambush-predator build comes with increased power and agility,climbing ability, claws and sight (yes, dogs aren't colour blind, but from what I've read the cats win out) The only area a vampiric canid would win out in is smell, and maybe that godly-dog-scent power is enough to go team dog, but there are plenty of other options.

For the bat... Yeah, that's probably the best flier there is for a vampire, a bird would be far less convenient. A bat-sized insect could be a good answer... would such an insect be able to fly at that size, given vampire stamina?

Let's set out some undead guidelines
-Doesn't tire, doesn't breath.
-Resistant to low temperatures,
-All forms get fangs if they have teeth
-Animal forms must be predators.
-Additional powers are subject to the individual.

Additional rules: Your size is a limit, everything normally larger than yourself would instead be your size, and some things get upscaled to be your size. Imagine a Wolf, Bear, Tiger, Racoon and Rat that all weigh 65kgs; What's the best fighting form given equal mass?

Now metaphysically I can see it thus; The Vampire finds it easier to transform into canids because "man's best friend" and perhaps it's easier to dumb-down less on brains (being an intellegent soul in a cat brain might be harder to achieve). The Vampires likely prefer bats because they want all the nice mammal features (bats have hands!) and flying squirrels would be too OP for a lawful vampire society.

[Gnoman]

If everything scales to your size, then you want a cat. Not much can take a cat without a significant size advantage.

[halfeye]

If everything scales to your size, then you want a cat. Not much can take a cat without a significant size advantage.

Maybe a wolverine?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolverine

[Tvtyrant]

Skunk. A skunk is about a pound, a vampire is at least 100 times as large, which means it is going to expel a burning, blinding, noxious agent over ten feet. A normal skunk shoots 15CCs, a Vampire Skunk would shoot 1/3 of a gallon (up to a full gallon for a big vampire.)

Similarly Cone Snails are extremely poisonous and can shoot darts, tarantulas shoot clouds of irritating hairs, and spitting cobras can accurately blind someone. A giant poison dart frog would also be pretty cool.

[Aeson]

For the bat... Yeah, that's probably the best flier there is for a vampire, a bird would be far less convenient. A bat-sized insect could be a good answer... would such an insect be able to fly at that size, given vampire stamina?
There is a prehistoric dragonfly (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meganeuropsis) with an estimated wingspan of about 28 inches (71cm) and a body length of 17 inches (43cm). At least in theory and in the right environment, a bat-sized insect could probably fly.

That said ... you're positing a scenario in which a fairly typical humanoid turns into a big insectoid. Physically-implausible flight capability for your overgrown mosquito man shouldn't exactly be straining credulity, here; this is already a situation where any explanation of how it works boils down to "because magic."

[Lvl 2 Expert]

A baboon.

Monkeys are basically the only animals that form city gangs and harrass people in their own houses in the real world. They're a bit less sneaky in getting into a crack in the window than bats are, but they can always just crack the actual window if needed.

And the added ability to upscale a baboon to human size is just scary:

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a4d16ce6ab6ab6f35653b7551b51a5bf.webp

Must be predators my donkey.

[Rakaydos]

Hyena and hawk.

[El'the Ellie]

My vote goes to the Mantis Shrimp! At their normal size of 10 cm, they throw a punch at 52 mph: the force of a .22 caliber bullet. That's twice the speed of world class boxers, and fast enough to generate a literal shockwave that kills the shrimp's prey even if the punch misses. Now imagine that the size of a person.

Do you look silly? Yes.
Can you punch a hole clean through anyone that calls you silly? Also yes.

[The Jack]

Skunk. A skunk is about a pound, a vampire is at least 100 times as large, which means it is going to expel a burning, blinding, noxious agent over ten feet. A normal skunk shoots 15CCs, a Vampire Skunk would shoot 1/3 of a gallon (up to a full gallon for a big vampire.)

Similarly Cone Snails are extremely poisonous and can shoot darts, tarantulas shoot clouds of irritating hairs, and spitting cobras can accurately blind someone. A giant poison dart frog would also be pretty cool.


My vote goes to the Mantis Shrimp! At their normal size of 10 cm, they throw a punch at 52 mph: the force of a .22 caliber bullet. That's twice the speed of world class boxers, and fast enough to generate a literal shockwave that kills the shrimp's prey even if the punch misses. Now imagine that the size of a person.

Do you look silly? Yes.
Can you punch a hole clean through anyone that calls you silly? Also yes.

I think these options would be curbed somewhat by the square root law.

[Tvtyrant]

Square-cube law actually works in the Skunks favor, it would store more liquid percentage wise as it got bigger.

[Caerulea]

VELOCIRAPTORS! Why wouldn't you be a (double sized) killer dinosour? (Or cat. But partly just because I like cats.)
Also, have you considered a peregrine falcon for an arial option?

—Caerulea

[Gnoman]

I think these options would be curbed somewhat by the square root law.

That's why I went with Cat. We have examples of human-mass cats to compare to, and they lose nothing in the upscaling.

[The Jack]

Square-cube law actually works in the Skunks favor, it would store more liquid percentage wise as it got bigger.

Yes, but would that liquid get any nastier? There's only so much surface area it can cover, and would the substance be relevant to the undead vampire?


That's why I went with Cat. We have examples of human-mass cats to compare to, and they lose nothing in the upscaling.

See, cats look choice, due to the high-energy muscles and the less specialised limbs.

But I don't know enough about bears, rodents or much else to solidify cats as top choice. An additional problem I have with cats is that there's a significant bias towards them because of the cats vs dogs debate. It's harder to get fair sources for them because the people who've got enough interest in the subject to talk about it tend to be talking out of their... have a vested interest in their choice of pet.

[Tvtyrant]

Yes, but would that liquid get any nastier? There's only so much surface area it can cover, and would the substance be relevant to the undead vampire?


The substance gets much, much worse when it gets in your airways or orifices. The skunk shoots a tiny amount normally, so you have to be unlucky not to just get a noseful of scent but with big amounts it is going to blind you and choke you.

The advantage to a Vampire is it works like hyper-pepper spray that lasts for weeks on targets.

Cats are fine, a Cougar would be just about the same size as a person anyway and are very good at killing.

[Rakaydos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUajncWmFWA&t=385s

Tier Zoo is an amazing channal.

[shawnhcorey]

The Honey Badger because it's fearless. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3WjnLn9p3U

[Caerulea]

The substance gets much, much worse when it gets in your airways or orifices. The skunk shoots a tiny amount normally, so you have to be unlucky not to just get a noseful of scent but with big amounts it is going to blind you and choke you.

The advantage to a Vampire is it works like hyper-pepper spray that lasts for weeks on targets.

Cats are fine, a Cougar would be just about the same size as a person anyway and are very good at killing.
If you are looking for range, what about something like the Mozambique Spitting Cobra?
Also, for arial builds, a swan could be really effective. (And also look nice, attracting humans.)

—Caerulea

[StoneGS]

Turning into a snake would be great. Like He Who Must Not Be Named

[Eldan]

Does it have to be nocturnal or is darkvision in the vampire package?

[The Jack]

Does it have to be nocturnal or is darkvision in the vampire package?

Bugger, forgot about that...

I'd like to go the VTM route and say "yes, but activating darkvision causes their eyes to glow red" which makes for a good tactical tradeoff (vision at the price of stealth) so a natural dark vision would be an advantage.

[The Glyphstone]

We're already mutilating conservation of mass with this thought exercise, so I think we can get away with playing games with the square-cube law as well.

[wumpus]

We're already mutilating conservation of mass with this thought exercise, so I think we can get away with playing games with the square-cube law as well.

I thought part of the goal was to avoid mutilating conservation of mass. If you wanted a nocturnal flier, you'd want an owl. If you wanted to conserve mass, you might wind up with something like a pteranodon or Haast's eagle (Haast's eagle may have preyed on humans before extinction, but still was unlikely to mass anywhere near a human).

A wolf form may be more useful in more urban areas where an exotic form may attract undo attention. The big problem is that most of the wolves advantages (endurance hunting) would be already covered by "vampire powers": the wolf form isn't particularly powerful, just better camouflage (same goes for the owl, but owl is essentially an upgraded bat).

And yes, this is a question straight out of tier zoo. Just slap the vampire template on a tier zoo "build" and see where it stands.

[Grim Portent]

I have to imagine rats would be rather good when human sized. The big ones can already go toe to toe with animals much bigger than them, at least well enough to make the other animal avoid confrontation, they're great climbers and good at jumping, have dexterous paws that could crudely grip things, can squeeze through tight spaces and have big ol' rodent teeth, which can leave some pretty deep wounds.

[Imbalance]

Cat isn't the upgrade from wolf that you're looking for. Just say tiger and be done.

More imaginitively, consider that if spiders were the size of cats the human race would be in trouble. A man - sized jumping spider would be terrifyingly lethal. The tiger would fear it.

You'd have to remove the predator requirement, though, to reach the ultimate form. Imagine driving down a narrow road late a night, miles from the nearest settlement, bleary lights casting just ahead of your position at even a cautious rate of travel. You round a blind curve and suddenly it's just standing there, and in a split second you must decide between colliding with it or swerving to miss, but your choice is irrelevant as the creature chose this spot to damn you no matter how you react. You try to hault, skidding and clattering you brace for impact but hit nothing, your heart beats wildly as all motion ceases. Relief is fleeting, because the creature is upon you before you grasp your bearings. Blistering speed, uncanny senses, and more martial prowess than most realize, there can be no more opportunistic menace for a cunning vampire to choose than the Pennsylvania whitetail deer. Just ask any auto insurance adjuster.

[Caerulea]

A 65 pound tardigrade may be concerning. I still like vampire swans though.


Blistering speed, uncanny senses, and more martial prowess than most realize, there can be no more opportunistic menace for a cunning vampire to choose than the Pennsylvania whitetail deer. Just ask any auto insurance adjuster.
Can I put this in my extended signature?

—Caerulea

[Imbalance]

A 65 pound tardigrade may be concerning. I still like vampire swans though.

Water bears are already darn-near immortal, yet harbor no semblance of evil, thus out of reach of the mimicry of the undead.


Can I put this in my extended signature?

—Caerulea

Surely

[Eldan]

Eh, a tardigrade doesn't really give anything a vampire doesn't usually already have in fiction. Vampires already go into a death-like sleep where they last for centuries and are difficult to kill.

Plus, the internet is super-memey about tardigrades. Their indestructibility? Doesn't work that way.


Anyway, there seem two general paths for this. Mobility and terrifying predator. For the first, I'd say a form that can both fly and swim would be ideal, so maybe some kind of waterfowl. For the second, I'd say Jaguar or Hyena (because size isn't really a factor since everything is scaled up, so I'd take Jaguar over Tiger.) For a combination of both, a crocodile is pretty damn hard to beat.

[halfeye]

Anyway, there seem two general paths for this. Mobility and terrifying predator. For the first, I'd say a form that can both fly and swim would be ideal, so maybe some kind of waterfowl. For the second, I'd say Jaguar or Hyena (because size isn't really a factor since everything is scaled up, so I'd take Jaguar over Tiger.) For a combination of both, a crocodile is pretty damn hard to beat.

Small crocs aren't that dangerous, and 65kg is a small croc. A 65kg anything can't fly.

[Tvtyrant]

Small crocs aren't that dangerous, and 65kg is a small croc. A 65kg anything can't fly.

This (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatlus)isn't (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatzegopteryx) true (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentavis). Just like there were once bugs larger then 65kg, so we have had fliers larger.

[wumpus]

Eh, a tardigrade doesn't really give anything a vampire doesn't usually already have in fiction. Vampires already go into a death-like sleep where they last for centuries and are difficult to kill.

Plus, the internet is super-memey about tardigrades. Their indestructibility? Doesn't work that way.


Anyway, there seem two general paths for this. Mobility and terrifying predator. For the first, I'd say a form that can both fly and swim would be ideal, so maybe some kind of waterfowl. For the second, I'd say Jaguar or Hyena (because size isn't really a factor since everything is scaled up, so I'd take Jaguar over Tiger.) For a combination of both, a crocodile is pretty damn hard to beat.

Crocodile (and any water based critter) has the issue of being a cheaty way of defeating the "can't cross running water" penalty. I doubt it would be allowed.


This (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatlus)isn't (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatzegopteryx) true (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentavis). Just like there were once bugs larger then 65kg, so we have had fliers larger.

I have to question the 65kg bug. I've heard of dragonflies with >1m wingspan, but they certainly didn't weight 65kg. Also insects during this time enjoyed an atmosphere with three times the oxygen and no vertebrate predator/competitors. They aren't viable now.

65kg fliers also have the issue of preferring to soar and finding climbing extremely expensive. Expect them to live near cliffs full of useful thermals to avoid manually climbing (in the aircraft sense with wings, not claws). The typical assumption is that the vampire would assume the form when pressed, but a large flyer would assume that the vampire would get into position (probably at the top of a tower) and then change form. Of course if he had both a bat and a pteranodon form, that would be the best of both worlds.

The deer form has some issues. Should the vampire posses/hypnotize/control other deer and launch them toward a victim, that would be terrifying. A vampire simply attacking vehicles is bad enough (assuming that they are indifferent to anything but special (typically silver) attacks and nothing but a good staking will finish them off), but eventually somebody will finish the job and happen to have silver bullets (perhaps leftover from the zombie craze), and become suspicious. Also the deer has to be sufficiently mobile after being hit by a car to bite the driver and/or passenger, this may require the vampire using a "real" deer to attack the vehicle. Moose are considerably more dangerous (you simply *must* brake for moose), but only the >>100kg are the ones that commonly lethal.

[The Jack]

Crocodile (and any water based critter) has the issue of being a cheaty way of defeating the "can't cross running water" penalty. I doubt it would be allowed.

Sample vampire doesn't have this weakness.
And I have been wondering what an aquatic vampire would pick. Dolphins, Orcas, Sea Lions? Vampire squids?



I have to question the 65kg bug. I've heard of dragonflies with >1m wingspan, but they certainly didn't weight 65kg. Also insects during this time enjoyed an atmosphere with three times the oxygen and no vertebrate predator/competitors. They aren't viable now.

Not everything needs to climb up to the vampire's size, it just can where it's useful. The Oxygen isn't an issue as far as energy is concerned, as the vampire doesn't need to breath to keep up a stamina. Perhaps thick oxygen'd make it easier to fly due to aerodynamics or something, but until then... This also goes for your next bit.



Deer

No herbivores.

[hamishspence]

Deer can be slightly predatory: they have been known to hunt small birds.

https://www.outdoorhub.com/stories/2013/09/09/the-meat-eating-habits-of-deer/

[Tvtyrant]

I have to question the 65kg bug. I've heard of dragonflies with >1m wingspan, but they certainly didn't weight 65kg. Also insects during this time enjoyed an atmosphere with three times the oxygen and no vertebrate predator/competitors. They aren't viable now.

65kg fliers also have the issue of preferring to soar and finding climbing extremely expensive. Expect them to live near cliffs full of useful thermals to avoid manually climbing (in the aircraft sense with wings, not claws). The typical assumption is that the vampire would assume the form when pressed, but a large flyer would assume that the vampire would get into position (probably at the top of a tower) and then change form. Of course if he had both a bat and a pteranodon form, that would be the best of both worlds.

The deer form has some issues. Should the vampire posses/hypnotize/control other deer and launch them toward a victim, that would be terrifying. A vampire simply attacking vehicles is bad enough (assuming that they are indifferent to anything but special (typically silver) attacks and nothing but a good staking will finish them off), but eventually somebody will finish the job and happen to have silver bullets (perhaps leftover from the zombie craze), and become suspicious. Also the deer has to be sufficiently mobile after being hit by a car to bite the driver and/or passenger, this may require the vampire using a "real" deer to attack the vehicle. Moose are considerably more dangerous (you simply *must* brake for moose), but only the >>100kg are the ones that commonly lethal.

This (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaekelopterus)guy, and these (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthropleura)things. As vampires they don't need oxygen, so they should be able to flipper about just fine.

[Imbalance]

No herbivores.

How about parasites? A 65 kilo leech seems fitting, though probably not optimal. It would certainly be terrifying.

[The Jack]

It's a useless form. Also, passing as a normal animal's an advantage, so grabbing pre-historic examples and up-scaled insect's a disadvantage.

[Melayl]

65kg fliers also have the issue of preferring to soar and finding climbing extremely expensive. Expect them to live near cliffs full of useful thermals to avoid manually climbing (in the aircraft sense with wings, not claws). The typical assumption is that the vampire would assume the form when pressed, but a large flyer would assume that the vampire would get into position (probably at the top of a tower) and then change form. Of course if he had both a bat and a pteranodon form, that would be the best of both worlds.

A normal 65 kg flier doesn't have a vampire's enhanced strength. A vampire's strength should be sufficent to get a vastly greater mass airborne from the ground...

[redwizard007]

Beasts and vermin. The vampire has power over them because they are creatures of the Devil, traditionally. That list could easily be expanded using a thematic guideline. Some of the previous posts strike me as a bit silly given the source material.

[veti]

I vote for badger, in place of deer. It's a carnivore, nocturnal, and suitably feared by drivers. (If you have the misfortune to hit even a normal-sized badger, it's probably going to render your car inoperable. I imagine a 65 kg one could probably take out a fire truck.)

[Knaight]

There's a lot to be sad for a dragonfly. They can clearly scale up and fly well given enough oxygen, which in the context of a vampire that doesn't need to breathe means you can go to if not past the size of prehistoric dragonflies at their largest. That leaves a form that's a highly effective predator with downright ridiculous mobility.

[Jay R]

Frankly, I reject the question. Vampires don't decide what a vampire's forms are. They are iconically a wolf, a bat, and a mist.

I have no interest in a vampire who changes these, for the same reason I have no interest in a vampire who sparkles.

[wumpus]

There's a lot to be sad for a dragonfly. They can clearly scale up and fly well given enough oxygen, which in the context of a vampire that doesn't need to breathe means you can go to if not past the size of prehistoric dragonflies at their largest. That leaves a form that's a highly effective predator with downright ridiculous mobility.

Can vampires scale up their form arbitrarily, or is it just that you can choose forms that have to adjust to conserve mass?

Does this also mean that a vampire will typically choose to make spawn from the fattest (well at least heaviest) available humans (assuming that ythey can't make a vampire horse or something)?

[tiornys]

Can vampires scale up their form arbitrarily, or is it just that you can choose forms that have to adjust to conserve mass?

Does this also mean that a vampire will typically choose to make spawn from the fattest (well at least heaviest) available humans (assuming that ythey can't make a vampire horse or something)?
And suddenly, the reason why we don't have human vampires running around any more. They're all whales now.

[Kato]

I propose a vampire Kolibri, and no I don't care about the proposed rules but the idea of a giant kolibri hunting maidens to attack with their tongue is too funny.

Also, I guess à cat type (lion, panther, cheetah..) really is the best but I don't think it's much of an advantage over the classic wolf.

[halfeye]

I propose a vampire Kolibri, and no I don't care about the proposed rules but the idea of a giant kolibri hunting maidens to attack with their tongue is too funny.

I remember Kolibri being a brand of fancy cigarette lighter (and I think perhaps jewellery). What's the monster?


Also, I guess à cat type (lion, panther, cheetah..) really is the best but I don't think it's much of an advantage over the classic wolf.

Mustelid, hyena, cat, canine, bear is my ranking of those, if we are talking per kilo ferocity, though I'm not certain exactly where the hyenas belong.

[Xania]

How about parasites? A 65 kilo leech seems fitting, though probably not optimal. It would certainly be terrifying.


Yes, or a gadfly, so the flying skill is still there like in the bat form.
I have a phobia for flies so not sure if everybody would see it as horrible like me.

[Kato]

I remember Kolibri being a brand of fancy cigarette lighter (and I think perhaps jewellery). What's the monster?



Mustelid, hyena, cat, canine, bear is my ranking of those, if we are talking per kilo ferocity, though I'm not certain exactly where the hyenas belong.

Ugh, I forgot that's not one of the animals with a similar English name, sorry. Hummingbird, Kolibri is the German word for hummingbird.

I'd wager hyenas are slightly less ferocious than others... A quick skim on Wikipedia on the other hand tells me they can be quite predatory towards humans given the right circumstances. I guess their reputation makes them look lazier (?)

[Eldan]

Frankly, I reject the question. Vampires don't decide what a vampire's forms are. They are iconically a wolf, a bat, and a mist.

I have no interest in a vampire who changes these, for the same reason I have no interest in a vampire who sparkles.

There's a lot more to mythological vampires than just that, even if we restrict ourselves to Eastern European ones. Albanian Shtriga turn into moths or flies. Romanian Moroi turn into bears, or take possession of bears. The also Romanian Pricolici turn into all manner of animals, including wolf/man hybrids and owls, in addition to the more normal wolf, bat and dog. I've once seen a badly sourced article that claimed that the Roma also claimed frogs, horses and sheep might be vampires in disguise, using harmless-looking forms to sneak up on people. And of course there is the ever-ridiculed vampire watermelon.
Dracula turned into a dog and most likely another human (Harkness), and he's about as canonical as you get for vampires.

[hamishspence]

Who's Harkness?

[Eldan]

Harker. I mean Harker.

[Xania]

There's a lot more to mythological vampires than just that, even if we restrict ourselves to Eastern European ones. Albanian Shtriga turn into moths or flies. Romanian Moroi turn into bears, or take possession of bears. The also Romanian Pricolici turn into all manner of animals, including wolf/man hybrids and owls, in addition to the more normal wolf, bat and dog. I've once seen a badly sourced article that claimed that the Roma also claimed frogs, horses and sheep might be vampires in disguise, using harmless-looking forms to sneak up on people. And of course there is the ever-ridiculed vampire watermelon.
Dracula turned into a dog and most likely another human (Harkness), and he's about as canonical as you get for vampires.


Don't knew nothing about those Albanian vampires, seems like my suggestion is just an existing one :smallredface:

There are also vampires that leave their bodies hidden and inert and become ethereal entities in Africa.

[hamishspence]

Harker. I mean Harker.

When did he turn into Harker? It's been a while since I read the book.

[veti]

When did he turn into Harker? It's been a while since I read the book.

Yeah, ditto.

Also, my interpretation is that the "dog" was a standard wolf form, as witnessed by not-particularly-discerning British observers-who'd-never-seen-a-wolf, at a distance and in the dark.

[hamishspence]

I got the impression it was intended to invoke the whole "barghest" thing from folklore:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barghest

[Eldan]

It's been a long time for me too,but I distinctly remember Dracula imitating Harker? Maybe I'm misremembering things and he only did the voice? But there was something like that.

[Kato]

Yeah, I think at some point he somehow imitates him to lure / manipulate... Lucy? But I don't think the story makes it clear if she sees him or just hears him.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I have no interest in a vampire who changes these, for the same reason I have no interest in a vampire who sparkles.

Oh come on, we all know the vampire only sparkles when subject to Protection From Sunlight.:smallcool:

[Reese Briggs]

Crocodile (and any water based critter) has the issue of being a cheaty way of defeating the "can't cross running water" penalty. I doubt it would be allowed.



I have to question the 65kg bug. I've heard of dragonflies with >1m wingspan, but they certainly didn't weight 65kg. Also insects during this time enjoyed an atmosphere with three times the oxygen and no vertebrate predator/competitors. They aren't viable now.

65kg fliers also have the issue of preferring to soar and finding climbing extremely expensive. Expect them to live near cliffs full of useful thermals to avoid manually climbing (in the aircraft sense with wings, not claws). The typical assumption is that the vampire would assume the form when pressed, but a large flyer would assume that the vampire would get into position (probably at the top of a tower) and then change form. Of course if he had both a bat and a pteranodon form, that would be the best of both worlds.

The deer form has some issues. Should the vampire posses/hypnotize/control other deer and launch them toward a victim, that would be terrifying. A vampire simply attacking vehicles is bad enough (assuming that they are indifferent to anything but special (typically silver) attacks and nothing but a good staking will finish them off), but eventually somebody will finish the job and happen to have silver bullets (perhaps leftover from the zombie craze), and become suspicious. Also the deer has to be sufficiently mobile after being hit by a car to bite the driver and/or passenger, this may require the vampire using a "real" deer to attack the vehicle. Moose are considerably more dangerous (you simply *must* brake for moose), but only the >>100kg are the ones that commonly lethal.

Vampires are potentially immortal, but they do have a few weaknesses. They can be destroyed by a stake through the heart, fire, beheading and direct sunlight, and they are wary of crucifixes, holy water and garlic.

[wumpus]

Vampires are potentially immortal, but they do have a few weaknesses. They can be destroyed by a stake through the heart, fire, beheading and direct sunlight, and they are wary of crucifixes, holy water and garlic.

The catch is that once a vampire is smacked by a F-150 (typical vehicle where whitetail deer live) it can easily be staked (if the driver (or any passengers, tow truck operator, etc) has any reason to believe that the deer is a vampire. It will have great difficulty finding its way to a coffin (especially if broken limbs in one form disable flight in another form) and is in grave danger of getting direct sunlight in a few hours (presumably this counts even in reasonably thick forests).

Using other deer (now known to be occasional opportunistic carnivores) as sacrifices to get surprised drivers out of their trucks/cars is likely to be rather effective.

[Gullintanni]

I vote for badger, in place of deer. It's a carnivore, nocturnal, and suitably feared by drivers. (If you have the misfortune to hit even a normal-sized badger, it's probably going to render your car inoperable. I imagine a 65 kg one could probably take out a fire truck.)

I think this is a sensible option. Badgers are also burrowers, so they have the natural ability to outmaneuver one of vampire's traditional weaknesses if they happen to lose track of time.

[Peelee]

Ugh, I forgot that's not one of the animals with a similar English name, sorry. Hummingbird, Kolibri is the German word for hummingbird.

My baby has an English/Korean colors book and an English/German animals book. And while I like them, whenever he brings the animal book to me I'm always thinking they could have picked different animals. I don't think he's learning much with der Tiger, das Zebra, and die Giraffe.

[Keltest]

My baby has an English/Korean colors book and an English/German animals book. And while I like them, whenever he brings the animal book to me I'm always thinking they could have picked different animals. I don't think he's learning much with der Tiger, das Zebra, and die Giraffe.

Eh, it helps teach the grammar, which for me was (and is) a significantly larger hurdle than the vocabulary.

[Peelee]

Eh, it helps teach the grammar, which for me was (and is) a significantly larger hurdle than the vocabulary.

While I really do think they seeded a few too many identically-named animals, I did very deliberately choose the examples I gave. :smallwink:

[Keltest]

While I really do think they seeded a few too many identically-named animals, I did very deliberately choose the examples I gave. :smallwink:

Heh.

Do remember both that English started out as a flavor of German that eventually ate a bunch of Latin and romantic languages and most of those animals do not come from areas where either English or German were at all a native language.

[Lord Raziere]

that would actually be good for what vampires do?

Mosquitoes.

small, light, fast, drinks blood, is a normal creature to an outside observer, human might not realize your drinking their blood, reasons like that.

I mean its not as if vampires aren't already human mosquitoes, so it fits.

[Misereor]

Not an animal, but shortly after the Twilight movies came out, one of my players improvised a one-shot adventure where the vampire villain could turn into Elton John.

[Traab]

There are two main avenues imo, stealth and attack. As a vampire, do you want to be an overwhelmingly powerful monster? Then by all means become an ROUS. Just avoid nearby fire swamps. On the other hand, if you want to stalk and ambush your prey, you would be better off as a fairly innocuous creature that blends in well. A normal rat, cat, or bird. "Nobody here but us pigeons, please, continue to walk towards a spot with no witnesses." Ideally you would have two forms, one for reconnaissance, one for combat. If you couldnt mass up into a larger form of it, you probably would like a cheetah form. Incredibly fast sprinter, highly lethal capabilities. They also weigh about as much as a healthy young man of average height, topping off at around 150 lbs. So much less mass issues unless you are the mountain the rides. They also hunt game naturally that is only a little smaller than the average adult. So i would imagine a human intelligent cheetah would be able to handle taking down most people fairly well even without any passive boosts to speed or strength that being a vampire might impart. Considering they can already run down a car going highway speeds, you have to imagine a vampiric version would be about impossible to escape with anything less than a jet engine.

[Peelee]

Not an animal, but shortly after the Twilight movies came out, one of my players improvised a one-shot adventure where the vampire villain could turn into Elton John.

That's one of the best things I've ever heard. And that includes the time Elton John composed a song about a microwave oven on the fly.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Considering they can already run down a car going highway speeds, you have to imagine a vampiric version would be about impossible to escape with anything less than a jet engine.

The fact they can sprint a short distance really doesn't matter. The car will keep going long after they've collapsed panting. A vampire's most lethal animal form is human.

[Traab]

The fact they can sprint a short distance really doesn't matter. The car will keep going long after they've collapsed panting. A vampire's most lethal animal form is human.

Im not sure why you think the ability to do a quarter mile dash at 75 mph doesnt matter when it comes to catching and killing their target. I more meant the car thing to show just how absurdly fast they can run. Even their nonsprint speed would leave usain bolt mauled on the ground in seconds. And its not just straight line speed, these guys are VERY agile at high speeds meaning good luck dodging even if you get the chance to try. And all of this is unenhanced. If being a vampire in the form transfers any bonuses, that would be absurdly lethal.

[Kato]

My baby has an English/Korean colors book and an English/German animals book. And while I like them, whenever he brings the animal book to me I'm always thinking they could have picked different animals. I don't think he's learning much with der Tiger, das Zebra, and die Giraffe.

Well, I'm sure he learns also about der Löwe (yay, umlaute), das Nashorn (rhino is a much nicer name than noshorn I'll admit) or die Gans (no relation to 'ganz', which means whatever we want it to)

[veti]

Im not sure why you think the ability to do a quarter mile dash at 75 mph doesnt matter when it comes to catching and killing their target.

If you're a vampire and your prey is running away, you're doing it wrong. They're stealth hunters, they don't do pursuit.

[Traab]

If you're a vampire and your prey is running away, you're doing it wrong. They're stealth hunters, they don't do pursuit.

Bah, there are more than one type of vampire. And besides, as I said, there are two main reasons for an animal form, stealth and reconnaissance, and combat. Being a standard pigeon would be ideal for sneaking around and waiting to ambush prey, but if the time ever comes for combat, being able to move at highway speeds, turn on a virtual dime, and have the natural tools to tear out throats all WITHOUT any vampiric enhancements added on top is a nice package deal. WITH vampiric bonuses anything less than an armored division is going to die screaming.

[halfeye]

Bah, there are more than one type of vampire.

Every author writes them differently. When you think about it, werewolves are a type of vampire.

[Lord Torath]

My personal favorite vampires are from Robin McKinley's Sunshine (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/8088.Sunshine). They can't change form, but are obscenely fast, and can move in ways not entirely contained in our reality. The older they get, the more sensitive they are to sunlight. Young vampires can endure twilight, older ones need to avoid the full moon, and several-century old ones even need to avoid reflected starlight. And wood from apple trees that host mistletoe make the best vampire-killing stakes.

Edit: Which I suppose really belongs in Media Discussions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?24-Media-Discussions). :smallredface:

[Xyril]

The fact they can sprint a short distance really doesn't matter. The car will keep going long after they've collapsed panting. A vampire's most lethal animal form is human.

Then what if he transforms into a more naturally power human?

If Cedric Diggory as vampire is already the most lethal animal form, wouldn't Dwayne Johnson as vampire be even more so?


Vampires are potentially immortal, but they do have a few weaknesses. They can be destroyed by a stake through the heart, fire, beheading and direct sunlight, and they are wary of crucifixes, holy water and garlic.

So basically, they need to become a heartless, headless creature that lives in the water, like a sea sponge, or one of those corals that secrete their own sunscreen?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Nah, just change into an African hopping vampire. Or a chedipe. Or a penanggalan. Or any of about three dozen other variants.

[archon_huskie]

In Vampire the Masquerade, the turn into animal trick is covered by two different powers.

Animalism - which at higher levels lets you possess animals.
Protean - which actually involves shapeshifting.

Under Protean, the character defaults to having a wolf and bat option. As the game became more popular and White Wolf needed more stuff to pad their splatbooks, wanted to provide more options for the players, they added alternate forms from other non-western vampire mythos. The forms the vampire gets are supposed to be specific to the vampire's personality and/or their culture. As they were scrapping the bottom of the barrel, to simplify things they declared a vampire gets one fight form and one flight (run away) form, but they don't get to change it once chosen. This is explained in a novel where an elder malkavian vampire (who somehow has 4 levels of the gangrel-only clan power of protean) battles a pack of sabbat vampires in his flight form of a badger (supposed to burrow away). It does not go well for the elder.

I'm not sure, but I think that whole scene was meant to mock players who try to min-max their characters and make them special snowflakes.

[Squire Doodad]

I think these options would be curbed somewhat by the square root law.

Plus, if I'm not mistaken shrimp are made out of Chitin which gets really annoying to carry around once you get past like a foot and a half in size.

[halfeye]

Plus, if I'm not mistaken shrimp are made out of Chitin which gets really annoying to carry around once you get past like a foot and a half in size.

The main problem with chitin is not having lungs.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Solved problem, vampires don't need them anyway.

[Wardog]

Eh, a tardigrade doesn't really give anything a vampire doesn't usually already have in fiction. Vampires already go into a death-like sleep where they last for centuries and are difficult to kill.

Plus, the internet is super-memey about tardigrades. Their indestructibility? Doesn't work that way.


Since TierZoo has already been mentioned: Are Waterbears OP? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMUvNWuSq6I)

(Summary: no. Because they've min-maxed in favour of invulnerability to everything except the things that are actually likely to kill them).

Although maybe their radiation resistance would also grant protection from sunlight, and so actually would be useful for vampires...

[MisterMan]

I’m not sure why creatures that can turn into a bat would follow conservation of “local” mass (I assume they tuck it into a pocket dimension or some similar gobbledygook, much like the Hellsing vampire’s private interior space).

But to play along, how does a vampire know how to copy something anyway? Presumably they get some of the biology wrong. I think this question addresses the heart of all of this. Depending on how guided the process is, they could potentially impersonate other human beings or create their own life forms. I imagine that as a being that doesn’t care about blood flow, they could conceal almost any weapon on their person and use it at will, or simply form a weapon at will with the body’s mineral resources. None of these are new ideas, but once you get into transmutation at will I think you move this direction quickly and inevitably, or your vampires just look stupid and unimaginative (which reflects on the writer).

If you can hand wave things with “magical limitations” of some sort, maybe an instinctive ability to copy the overall form of something they drink, then you have an intriguing proposition.

Edit: in short, my answer is that a non-traditional creature suited to the task at hand is the clear answer.

[Malphegor]

Komodo Dragon.

Or should I say Komodo Dracula?

First off- they get grooves in their teeth that gather bacteria and let us infect our prey, allowing them to die slowly elsewhere for us to feed on later. As chronic biters of prey, this may be of use to us, I dunno. This apparently is a myth and the actual dying of infection is from their serrated teeth opening massive wounds and dirty water near their typical homes.

Still, I feel being a bitey creature synergises well with being a vampire. Means we can vamp out in animal form without needing to be human if necessary.

Alternatively, for a flying form, mosquito. We're basically indistinguishible from a mosquito except we have a few extra supernatural powers like hypnovision and superspeed and super resilience. (That said due to the hated nature of mosquitos, if there is one species that humanity might intentionally try to make extinct one day, it's the mosquito. In that scenario, our vampire probably doesn't want to be the only remmant of that species, it's like a vampire tyrannosaurus rex, it gets attention.)

And lastly for coolness, Vampire Tyrannosaurus Rex. Because holy hell and the ice lakes of tartarus, imagine this suave suited figure turning into a goth T-Rex, roaring, then trying to delicately bite your head off to get at your blood.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Bite the head off? Just eat the whole body and get every last carmine drop of blood.

[Bohandas]

Something cute enough that people are going to invite it into their house. In this regard I agree with the OP that a feline form might be optimal. A tiny kitten perhaps.

EDIT:
And in this form it can still make easy work of the average D&D peasant.

[Themrys]

Bat, mosquito and leech. Those animals suck blood in real life (although most bats are not vampiric, some are), whíle other animals do not. There probably is a reason for that.

[Knaight]

Something cute enough that people are going to invite it into their house. In this regard I agree with the OP that a feline form might be optimal. A tiny kitten perhaps.

On the other hand a major vampire weakness is running water. Being a tiny kitten has significant risks in that regard, unless you keep enough vampire strength to be really good at breaking out of sacks.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Unless the bag is hermetically sealed you just mist out. Or turn into a full-sized vampire and explode out of the bag prior to releasing the blood from the veins in a rather more direct manner.

[Bohandas]

I propose a vampire Kolibri, and no I don't care about the proposed rules but the idea of a giant kolibri hunting maidens to attack with their tongue is too funny.


I remember Kolibri being a brand of fancy cigarette lighter (and I think perhaps jewellery). What's the monster?



Ugh, I forgot that's not one of the animals with a similar English name, sorry. Hummingbird, Kolibri is the German word for hummingbird.

Honestly when I saw it I misread it as Kohlrabi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlrabi)

[Xania]

Komodo Dragon.

Or should I say Komodo Dracula?

First off- they get grooves in their teeth that gather bacteria and let us infect our prey, allowing them to die slowly elsewhere for us to feed on later. As chronic biters of prey, this may be of use to us, I dunno. This apparently is a myth and the actual dying of infection is from their serrated teeth opening massive wounds and dirty water near their typical homes.

Still, I feel being a bitey creature synergises well with being a vampire. Means we can vamp out in animal form without needing to be human if necessary.

Alternatively, for a flying form, mosquito. We're basically indistinguishible from a mosquito except we have a few extra supernatural powers like hypnovision and superspeed and super resilience. (That said due to the hated nature of mosquitos, if there is one species that humanity might intentionally try to make extinct one day, it's the mosquito. In that scenario, our vampire probably doesn't want to be the only remmant of that species, it's like a vampire tyrannosaurus rex, it gets attention.)

And lastly for coolness, Vampire Tyrannosaurus Rex. Because holy hell and the ice lakes of tartarus, imagine this suave suited figure turning into a goth T-Rex, roaring, then trying to delicately bite your head off to get at your blood.


That made me remember a documentary where they turned the Tyrannosaurus into a giant vulture, it serves as a vampire dinosaur.

https://www.google.es/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwirqvG21oDlAhXiyYUKHT9MBRoQjRx6BAgBEAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fmarkdubeau.com%2Fartwork%2F22803 5-Valley-of-the-T-Rex.html&psig=AOvVaw3C9diNSzNTSozAyIdezu2H&ust=1570212177485345

[Lvl 2 Expert]

"I art directed, designed the creatures to Jack Horner's specifications and did some Graphic design and matte painting on this show."

we're lucky this isn't a paleontology forum, we dino nerds love arguing over who of us disbelieves Jack Horner the most.

But okay, the look is pretty cool.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I disbelieve him so much I forgot he existed, and I am not a paleontology nerd.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I disbelieve him so much I forgot he existed, and I am not a paleontology nerd.

Okay, that could have used some explanation.

Jack Horner is the "T. rex was a(n obligatory) scavenger" guy. He was also the technical consultant for dinosaur stuff on the Jurassic Park movies, which is why the characters insist that this very predator-like looking creature with huge, forward facing eyes with good spacing between them and easily enough of a braincase to have space for processing the images was blind as a bat and could only see moving objects. "Just walking through the forest, following my nose, bumping into trees".

It works fine for the movies, and there are even alternative ways to explain the scenes in which it matters (most importantly: in the car scene in the original movie it just ate a whole goat, it's probably not really hungry right now), but it still seems like a kind of dumb idea to have about this dinosaur if you're supposed to be a world famous professional paleontologist. And it's not an off-hand idea about a dinosaur that doesn't really interest him, he was really pushing this concept for a while.

There, you're welcome. Now you can roll your eyes any time someone mentions Jack Horner too.

[Magic_Hat]

Tardigrade. Always go with tardigrade.

[Peelee]

Jack Horner is the "T. rex was a(n obligatory) scavenger" guy. He was also the technical consultant for dinosaur stuff on the Jurassic Park movies, which is why the characters insist that this very predator-like looking creature with huge, forward facing eyes with good spacing between them and easily enough of a braincase to have space for processing the images was blind as a bat and could only see moving objects.

To be fair, the same characters insist that the T-Rex wants to hunt, so I'm not entirely sure how much sway Horner really held in that role.

[Xania]

Haha... Yes, most likely it's an outdated documentary but that Tyrannosaurus looks ghoulish

I thought the sight based on movement was because the frog DNA.

[Tvtyrant]

I think it is based on cats, who automatically focus their attention on sudden movements. I imagine the nerd to director translation went something like: "if they run it will trigger the animals predator drive, and it will kill them." "So it can't see things that don't move?" "It does, it just won't trigger it to pounce." "So it can't see?..." "Essentially yeah."

[hamishspence]

I thought the sight based on movement was because the frog DNA.



Jack Horner is the "T. rex was a(n obligatory) scavenger" guy. He was also the technical consultant for dinosaur stuff on the Jurassic Park movies, which is why the characters insist that this very predator-like looking creature with huge, forward facing eyes with good spacing between them and easily enough of a braincase to have space for processing the images was blind as a bat and could only see moving objects. "Just walking through the forest, following my nose, bumping into trees".

It works fine for the movies, and there are even alternative ways to explain the scenes in which it matters (most importantly: in the car scene in the original movie it just ate a whole goat, it's probably not really hungry right now), but it still seems like a kind of dumb idea to have about this dinosaur if you're supposed to be a world famous professional paleontologist. And it's not an off-hand idea about a dinosaur that doesn't really interest him, he was really pushing this concept for a while.


In the novels, the belief that the T.Rex "could only see movement" was based on a palaeontologist who had scanned skull, got cast of braincase, analysed it, and concluded that the part of the brain that corresponded to vision, exactly matches that of a frog - all before Jurassic Park itself had been revealed.

The palaeontologist (Roxton) is probably the in-universe equivalent of Horner.

Probably Crichton, after the movie had come out (this explanation is in book 2 which was written after movie 1) taking a jab at Horner (the protagonists are extremely harshly critical about Roxton).




It's worth remembering Grant's spiel early in the movie about how T. rex "will lose you if you don't move. But not Velociraptor" also takes place before he's found out about Jurassic Park.

[Peelee]

In the novels, the belief that the T.Rex "could only see movement" was based on a palaeontologist who had scanned skull, got cast of braincase, analysed it, and concluded that the part of the brain that corresponded to vision, exactly matches that of a frog - all before Jurassic Park itself had been revealed.

The palaeontologist (Roxton) is probably the in-universe equivalent of Horner.

Probably Crichton, after the movie had come out (this explanation is in book 2 which was written after movie 1) taking a jab at Horner (the protagonists are extremely harshly critical about Roxton).




It's worth remembering Grant's spiel early in the movie about how T. rex "will lose you if you don't move. But not Velociraptor" also takes place before he's found out about Jurassic Park.

You'd think Grant would have been more excited about getting with the dino handlers to get their notes and compare with current theory, instead of just going to look at them. Imean, he's there for an endorsement and all, but still.

[hamishspence]

You'd think Grant would have been more excited about getting with the dino handlers to get their notes and compare with current theory, instead of just going to look at them.

I would speculate that after the show "We used the DNA of a frog to fill in the holes and complete the code" there was an element of "Well, there goes that" in the back of his mind.

He's much more excited during the Brachiosaurus scene - we see him and Ellie deducing various things that they now know that they didn't know for certain before, and asking Hammond questions like "How fast are they?"

By JP3 "They're monsters, not dinosaurs" has become his official line - but in conversation with Billy, he's still treating the behaviours he saw in JP, as if they were accurate. So he might not entirely believe what he's telling the audience.

[Peelee]

I would speculate that after the show "We used the DNA of a frog to fill in the holes and complete the code" there was an element of "Well, there goes that" in the back of his mind.

He's much more excited during the Brachiosaurus scene - we see him and Ellie deducing various things that they now know that they didn't know for certain before, and asking Hammond questions like "How fast are they?"

By JP3 "They're monsters, not dinosaurs" has become his official line - but in conversation with Billy, he's still treating the behaviours he saw in JP, as if they were accurate. So he might not entirely believe what he's telling the audience.

Imean, JP3 was basically just using up all the part from the book that wasn't already in the first two movies, so that was probably at least some influence.

[hamishspence]

Well, almost all. The colour-changing in the first book (a Velociraptor) didn't make it to the screen until JP4 (the Indomitus rex).

[Peelee]

Well, almost all. The colour-changing in the first book (a Velociraptor) didn't make it to the screen until JP4 (the Indomitus rex).

I thought the active camouflage was the carnotaur in The Lost World novel. I don't remember the velociraptor changing colors.

[hamishspence]

I thought the active camouflage was the carnotaur in The Lost World novel. I don't remember the velociraptor changing colors.

Carnotaurus was better at it.

From the novel:



Muldoon was holding the leather collar with the small metal box attached to it. Grant heard the high-pitched beeping in the headset. "Is it a problem putting the collar on the animal?"


Lex was still petting the raptor, reaching through the cage. "I het he'll let me put it on him," she said.


"I wouldn't try," Muldoon said. "They're unpredictable."


"I het he'll let me," she said.


So Muldoon gave Lex the collar, and she held it out so the raptor could smell it. Then she slowly slipped it around the animal's neck. The raptor turned brighter green when Lex buckled it and closed the Velcro cover over the buckle. Then the animal relaxed, and turned paler again.


"I'll be damned," Muldoon said.


"It's a chameleon," Lex said.


"The other raptors couldn't do that," Muldoon said, frowning. "This wild animal must be different."

[Peelee]

Dang, I forgot about that. I'd still say the Indominus Rex was more Carnotaur-based, since that one could replicate chain-link fencing-like patterns while the raptor only seemed to do it as a response to stress, and was only mentioned that one time with that one raptor.

[hamishspence]

I can believe that the writers of Jurassic World had The Lost World in mind, yes.

I'm told that some of Ian Malcolm's spiel in Fallen Kingdom is from the Jurassic Park novel, at least. Even after JP3, there was still content to be mined from the books.

[Peelee]

I can believe that the writers of Jurassic World had The Lost World in mind, yes.

I'm told that some of Ian Malcolm's spiel in Fallen Kingdom is from the Jurassic Park novel, at least. Even after JP3, there was still content to be mined from the books.

The really creepy raptor group being synchronized in the underground lair springs to mind, right off the bat.