5E: Who is the best Illusionist?

[Rakoa]

When trying to establish a versatile and powerful illusionist, who reigns supreme? The Illusionist Wizard? The Bard? A Sorcerer of some description? I've googled around and haven't found much of a consensus.

[Rukelnikov]

The Illusionist and it's not even close

[Galithar]

Yeah. Illusionist wizard. The other two can use them effectively and be better at other things at the same time, but for straight use of illusions the one with illusionist in the name is a walk away.

Edit: Clarification: It's not BECAUSE it's in the name. I've seen other games where the 'illusionist' just had the most illusion options but wasn't always the best at using them.

[No brains]

A dog in a wizard costume.
"Who's a good illusionist? Who's the best illusionist?"

Echoing illusionist wizard. As far as I know, wizards get the good illusion spells and then can add more stuff to them.

[TyGuy]

The Gnome Illusionist ™

[Trustypeaches]

Illusion Wizard 14 and then just go sorcerer for Subtle Spell IMO.

[Fable Wright]

Illusionist Wizard has the strongest feature in the game, bar none, and the sheer number of shenanigans Malleable Illusions opens up is insane.

Like "hat of disguise for a level 1 spell slot" insane. Dumping all their 4th and higher level slots on 24+ hour duration non concentration spells that they can move around at will for the next day without a slot is insane. Hell, my illusionist keeps a full sized lake and a rowboat in her pocket between Mirage Arcane and Creation, and can scout perfectly at 500 mile ranges through redeployed Project Image uses. I've also used Illusionary Script as psychic paper and uses it to pass secret messages to people at will.

And can redeploy all these illusions without verbal or somatic components, giving effectively free Subtle Spell.

Just... Illusionist.

[Greywander]

2 levels of warlock can get you the invocations for at-will Disguise Self and Silent Image. At-will. Pretty handy if you plan on using those frequently.
15 levels of warlock can get you the invocation for at-will Invisibility. Comes pretty late, but definitely useful.

3 levels of sorcerer can get you the Subtle Spell metamagic, which combos nicely with using illusion magic in public without being noticed.

2 levels of Illusionist wizard lets you create both sound and image with one casting of Minor Illusion.
6 levels of Illusionist wizard lets you modify an illusion after you've already created it. At-will.
14 levels of Illusionist wizard lets you make part of your illusion real for a short time. At-will, but can't deal damage.
18 levels of wizard lets you get Spell Mastery, allowing you to choose a 1st and 2nd level spell to be at-will, which could include an illusion spell.

I think this covers most of it.

[Talionis]

I think Warlock 2/ Illusionist Wizard18. Getting unlimited casting of illusions early in your career is strong.

[Eragon123]

Late game: Illusionist Wizard.
Early game: warlock (Archfey) with right invocations/feats.

That being said neither are bad at any time.

[Segev]

Late game: Illusionist Wizard.
Early game: warlock (Archfey) with right invocations/feats.

That being said neither are bad at any time.

I half agree. Early game, the Warlock is the best illusionist, hands-down, with at-will silent image and minor illusion for sound. The Illusionist actually doesn't get to feel like an Illusionist in comparison until level 9, when he finally can make permanent major images. At that point, however, he completely overtakes the Warlock, with Malleable Illusions outstripping the Warlock's need to keep Concentration on his silent image, and ability to have only one at a time. Worse, the Warlock never progresses in skill at illusion, while the Illusionist has finally hit his stride and keeps getting cooler toys.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477658-Illusionist-Tricks) is a good analysis (if I do say so myself) of what makes Illusionists awesome. Mirage arcane is nuts with Malleable Illusions, for instance.

But low level, the Illusionist doesn't feel like an illusionist the way a Warlock does. Maybe trying to fix that should be my next homebrew project.

[HamsterKun]

Multiclassing Wizard and Warlock would be IDEAL for an illusionist build, but keep in mind that the former uses Intelligence for spellcasting and the latter Charisma.

I’m saying this because it’s generally advised to only multiclass into other spellcasting classes if they share the same spellcasting ability (i.e. Cleric/Druid, Bard/Sorcerer, Wizard/EK), and Wizard/Warlock in general has too much MAD to be truly optimal.

[Segev]

Multiclassing warlock on your illusionist also delays the illusionist coming into his own until 11th level.

[Kurt Kurageous]

And here I go again answering the question but not the question asked...

From the DM perspective, it's the player with the best imagination.

The rules may say you have the potential to be great, but it's the better player that realizes that potential in a way that entertains everyone.

[ZagiMellody]

Subtle Metamagic. Don't look back again.

[Segev]

And here I go again answering the question but not the question asked...

From the DM perspective, it's the player with the best imagination.

The rules may say you have the potential to be great, but it's the better player that realizes that potential in a way that entertains everyone.Actually, this brings up just how DM-dependent the utility of illusions is. "Creativity" in the part of one DM's player is "munchkinry" on the part of another's, and it is consistently amazing how rarely illusions go unexamined and are not found "obvious" fault with even by DMs who normally are pretty good at not metagaming.


Subtle Metamagic. Don't look back again.Oh, good point. This would actually be a good upgrade for the Warlock Illusionist. Get Warlock 2, Sorcerer 3 for Misty Visions and Subtle Metamagic to be able to cast your at-will silent image without giving away the game. (It gets expensive in SP to use Subtle on both that and the minor illusion for sound, but is also doable.)

Once the Illusionist Wizard has hit level 9, though, he doesn't need Subtle Spell to do his thing: he has permanent major images he's cast earlier that day (if not days ago) which he can alter at will. No need to cast a spell at all if he doesn't want to in order to have an illusion tailor-made for the situation he finds himself in.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Actually, this brings up just how DM-dependent the utility of illusions is. "Creativity" in the part of one DM's player is "munchkinry" on the part of another's, and it is consistently amazing how rarely illusions go unexamined and are not found "obvious" fault with even by DMs who normally are pretty good at not metagaming.

All very true. Is your DM in the DM v. PCs camp? Does your DM hate when you creatively wreck their well-laid plans? DON'T PLAY ILLUSIONS.

My self-check as a DM: Even if there is a chance the foes would have reason to doubt, it has to take an action to investigate. That means being in a position to look calmly at the illusion. If the party is influencing the action, the foes will be busy and won't have time to investigate or even think to question the situation. Self-preservation is a much higher priority than critical skepticism in most brains. Maybe not for a Beholder or Illithid, perhaps, but for most foes certainly.

But if the action stops and the foes have a chance to rally and go, "Heeey. Wayyyyyyyytaminit, where'd THAT come from?" then they will take an action to WIS (Investigate) the illusion.

A creative illusionist understands deception must include at least some element of plausibility to be effective. A water elemental in a lava lake ain't it.

[Segev]

All very true. Is your DM in the DM v. PCs camp? Does your DM hate when you creatively wreck their well-laid plans? DON'T PLAY ILLUSIONS.

My self-check as a DM: Even if there is a chance the foes would have reason to doubt, it has to take an action to investigate. That means being in a position to look calmly at the illusion. If the party is influencing the action, the foes will be busy and won't have time to investigate or even think to question the situation. Self-preservation is a much higher priority than critical skepticism in most brains. Maybe not for a Beholder or Illithid, perhaps, but for most foes certainly.

But if the action stops and the foes have a chance to rally and go, "Heeey. Wayyyyyyyytaminit, where'd THAT come from?" then they will take an action to WIS (Investigate) the illusion.

A creative illusionist understands deception must include at least some element of plausibility to be effective. A water elemental in a lava lake ain't it.
One of the DMs I've played with who is generally an "on the players' side" DM nevertheless typically had his monsters ignore illusions that didn't have mechanical consequences. Not even as a conscious "screw the illusionist" thing, but just because his valuation of the threat level or importance of the illusion always seemed to find reason why it was lower-priority than real threats. I don't think he did this on purpose. I think it was something subconscious. I've never had a DM who didn't have, on some level, a tendency to treat illusions like they were meaningless scenery at best.

I mean, you'd think an ogre charging out of a dark cave and landing on a nest full of eggs, squishing one or two beneath his feet, would draw the attention of the things guarding the nest, but...well, apparently not.

[Kurt Kurageous]

I mean, you'd think an ogre charging out of a dark cave and landing on a nest full of eggs, squishing one or two beneath his feet, would draw the attention of the things guarding the nest, but...well, apparently not.

Wow. Yeah, I can't agree with the ruling that the nest guardians wouldn't care or attempt to interact in some way with it. That 'ogre' would count in my mind as an ally for sneak attack reasons in the first round at least.

[Dalebert]

The Illusionist actually doesn't get to feel like an Illusionist in comparison until level 9, when he finally can make permanent major images.


11 actually. It takes a 6th level slot.

[Segev]

11 actually. It takes a 6th level slot.

Ah, drat, been too long since I looked at it. Thanks for the correction!

Point stands, though: until moderately high level, the illusionist wizard just...doesn't feel very good at being an illusionist. As soon as he gets permanent-duration illusions, though, Malleable Illusions makes him amazing.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Probably a half-orc Barbarian with Magic Initiate and the Entertainer background. Absolutely no one would see it coming- and that's the hallmark of a great illusionist.

[tieren]

I agree it depends on the level.

I've been playing my Archfey warlock as a master of illusion and enchantment and have been loving it. Right from level 2 being able to cast Level one Silent Images at Will feels really powerful. No wizard would be able to keep up with the number of times I dropped one of those in any given day. Because I wasn't burning a slot I could also use them for pure entertainment value and not worry about using a resource.

Using disguise self with the friends cantrip or charm person spell can take a lot of the sting out of the after effects.

Upcasting invisibility as the warlock slots increase, controlling encounters with hypnotic pattern, etc...feels like a good and powerful illusionist to me.

Now I recognize a wizard illusionist will pull away in tiers 3 and 4 (I can't even get illusionary dragon as an arcanum what is up with that?), but I find most play is in tiers 1 and 2 anyway so that is where I want to feel the power.

[Coffee_Dragon]

The Sorcerer King, there's nothing about his power that isn't illusory.

[XmonkTad]

I've been playing my Archfey warlock as a master of illusion and enchantment and have been loving it. Right from level 2 being able to cast Level one Silent Images at Will feels really powerful. No wizard would be able to keep up with the number of times I dropped one of those in any given day. Because I wasn't burning a slot I could also use them for pure entertainment value and not worry about using a resource.

Using disguise self with the friends cantrip or charm person spell can take a lot of the sting out of the after effects.


I'm also trying out an archfey warlock with the actor-friends-mask of many faces combo. I feel like a social illusionist, but perhaps not the sort of "I control the horizontal and the vertical" illusionist you think of when you're looking for the "best" illusionist. Though an illusionist wizard wouldn't have hit his stride yet either.

[Sigreid]

Someday I may have to make an illusionist just to loony toons. Create an illusion of an anvil over someone's head and then make it real just long enough for the cartoon to play out

[Segev]

Someday I may have to make an illusionist just to loony toons. Create an illusion of an anvil over someone's head and then make it real just long enough for the cartoon to play out

It even specifically can’t hurt them!

[Dalebert]

As soon as he gets permanent-duration illusions, though, Malleable Illusions makes him amazing.

Can confirm. I have a level 20 illusionist in AL. And with Mirage Arcana they're basically a Stranger from Dark City who can tune!


Create an illusion of an anvil over someone's head and then make it real just long enough for the cartoon to play out

It even specifically can’t hurt them!

True, but you could be making sounds with Minor Illusion so you can certainly make the "bonk" sound followed by birds tweeting.

[Segev]

I very much want to play a post-level-11 Illusionist. From carrying around "pet" illusions I can remake at a whim to rewriting entire cities, it'll just be so much fun.

I just wish that the choice wasn't "good at low level, okay-ish at high" or "meh at low level, amazing at high." The 2nd level feature needs something to make the ability to illusion at will a bit better. Either that, or minor illusion is supposed to be better than most people treat it as.

[KorvinStarmast]

From the DM perspective, it's the player with the best imagination. The rules may say you have the potential to be great, but it's the better player that realizes that potential in a way that entertains everyone. This. So much this.
My self-check as a DM: Even if there is a chance the foes would have reason to doubt, it has to take an action to investigate.
That means being in a position to look calmly at the illusion. If the party is influencing the action, the foes will be busy and won't have time to investigate or even think to question the situation. Self-preservation is a much higher priority than critical skepticism in most brains. Maybe not for a Beholder or Illithid, perhaps, but for most foes certainly.

But if the action stops and the foes have a chance to rally and go, "Heeey. Wayyyyyyyytaminit, where'd THAT come from?" then they will take an action to WIS (Investigate) the illusion. Nice point, italics mine.
The Sorcerer King, there's nothing about his power that isn't illusory. Snort. :smallbiggrin:

[Bloodcloud]

Illusionist wizard is the best illusionist, but the sorcerer is the best sneaky spellcaster (which might be what you are actually after...).

[Rukelnikov]

I very much want to play a post-level-11 Illusionist. From carrying around "pet" illusions I can remake at a whim to rewriting entire cities, it'll just be so much fun.

I just wish that the choice wasn't "good at low level, okay-ish at high" or "meh at low level, amazing at high." The 2nd level feature needs something to make the ability to illusion at will a bit better. Either that, or minor illusion is supposed to be better than most people treat it as.

Minor illusion is extremely good at low levels if you're less than 5 ft tall.

Make an illusion of a block of rock, a folding screen all around you, or something appropiate to where you are. Make said illusion on top of you.

You are now invisible to anyone that doesn't spend an action AND succeeds on an Investigation check, but you can see perfectly from inside it, doesn't require concentration either.

And about the Illusionist being "meh at low levels", well, lets not forget its still a wizard, and can still cast Fireball, Fly, Haste, Counterspell, etc, etc.

Regarding Illusions propers, Malleable Illusions at lvl 6 allows for some pretty neat things, while you don't get Disguise Self at will, a single casting of Disguise Self or Silent Image effectively means either spell at will for its duration, Illusory Script becomes a paper that reads whatever I want for 10 days, Magic Mouth says whatever I want and lasts until dispelled. And at lvl 7 you already get Hallucinatory Terrain.

So IMO Illusionist is only clearly behind until lvl 6 (and only in the illusions proper department), and by lvl 7 its already context dependant who is the better Illusionist.

[Teaguethebean]

The Sorcerer King, there's nothing about his power that isn't illusory.

Totally the sorcerer king is so strong!!!

[Dalebert]

Minor illusion is extremely good at low levels if your less than 5 ft tall.


If you work out the geometry, you can actually make something about 8 ft tall but not very wide by standing the cubic area on a corner. Easily can make a typical 8ft door with an arched top.

[Rukelnikov]

If you work out the geometry, you can actually make something about 8 ft tall but not very wide by standing the cubic area on a corner. Easily can make a typical 8ft door with an arched top.

True, but I wanna be wholly enclosed in the illusion, so no matter where I'm being looked from they always see a rock, it may still be doable as you suggest though.(i.e: not placing any face of the cube parallel to the floor)

[Phoenix042]

When trying to establish a versatile and powerful illusionist, who reigns supreme? The Illusionist Wizard? The Bard? A Sorcerer of some description? I've googled around and haven't found much of a consensus.

I have limited experience here, as most of my players don't focus on illusions beyond minor illusion and maybe silent image or disguise self.


However, I DM for one guy whose character is a Lore Bard 5 / Dragon Sorcerer 6 / Warlock 2, and he grabbed subtle.

I have to say, subtle is probably the most powerful metamagic in the game, and might be the single strongest spellcasting feature in the game.

The power to manifest sounds, sights, and basically a whole massive host of other effects around you without visibly or audibly DOING anything is absolutely BROKEN in a huge range of situations.

As a DM, I'm pretty supportive of my PC's but this is just ridiculous. Guards get no save to disbelieve the random noise they heard, foes waste actions attacking perceived threats and sometimes waste whole turns chasing phantoms, and dangerous, intelligent enemies rarely have a full understanding of any given scene if this guy decides they shouldn't.

Combined with social gems like friends, charm person, and suggestion (all potentially subtly cast), this character can turn deadly, horrific combats into hilarious hi-jinx without so much as lifting a finger or making a sound.

And did I mention he picked Great Old One so he's also a telepath who ignores language barriers? And he has repelling blast, so he can shove people around with blasts of telekinetic force at will? He's a much better psion than any of the attempts at psionics in UA so far.

[EdenIndustries]

I'd like to give a shout-out to Illusionist Wizard 14/Whispers Bard 6 for a sneaky slant on the Illusionist.

You still get the very powerful Illusory reality from Illusionist Wizard while gaining expertise in deception and performance from Bard to dazzle and deceive with your illusions, and the ability to magically become those who die around you for a very unique and powerful illusion-ish power courtesy of the College of Whispers.

[Dalebert]

True, but I wanna be wholly enclosed in the illusion, so no matter where I'm being looked from they always see a rock, it may still be doable as you osuggest though.(i.e: not placing any face of the cube parallel to the floor)

Yeah, I think so. Imagine a 7 or 8 foot tall, roughly obelisk shape.

[MaxWilson]

The power to manifest sounds, sights, and basically a whole massive host of other effects around you without visibly or audibly DOING anything is absolutely BROKEN in a huge range of situations.

Remember that most Subtle illusions still require M components (usually fleece), or the equivalent arcane focus. There's no reason to think that Subtle Major Image is undetectable, for example, especially since Xanathar's says using Material components is perceptible. (Feel free to ignore that Xanathar's rule if you like, but I happen to agree with it on that point.)

An illusionist on the other hand can use Malleable Illusions to alter a pre-cast Major Image with no components whatsoever.

[tieren]

I'm also trying out an archfey warlock with the actor-friends-mask of many faces combo. I feel like a social illusionist, but perhaps not the sort of "I control the horizontal and the vertical" illusionist you think of when you're looking for the "best" illusionist. Though an illusionist wizard wouldn't have hit his stride yet either.

Try going pact of the chain and send your invisible familiar in to scout and spy on the person you want to mimic, spend some time listening and watching through its senses then disguise self into that person and mimic their speech with the actor feat.

[JumboWheat01]

The problem I see about Warlock 2 / Wizard 18 combos is that your Warlock illusion invocations will run off Charisma, while everything else from Wizard runs off Intelligence. That leaves you capping both if you want the save high enough to not get ignored all the time, leaving you squishy as all get out.

That said, yeah, without a doubt it's the Illusionist that makes the best illusionist. Changing your illusions at will, making them real for a brief moment of time, and most importantly, being able to swap out your illusion spells if you know you're gonna be going up against something with True Sight, or change up your spells to mix in with your illusions. Is that an illusory Wall of Fire, or a real one?

[Segev]

Minor illusion is extremely good at low levels if you're less than 5 ft tall.

Make an illusion of a block of rock, a folding screen all around you, or something appropiate to where you are. Make said illusion on top of you.It's okay, but it's kind-of a one-trick pony. Minor illusion doesn't even really benefit all that much from the ability to get both sound and image at the same time if your DM rules very restrictively on how much motion (I've seen people on this forum argue it's "none") an image can have. Which makes the Illusionist level 2 ability nearly worthless; you may as well be playing a subclassless wizard until level 6.


And about the Illusionist being "meh at low levels", well, lets not forget its still a wizard, and can still cast Fireball, Fly, Haste, Counterspell, etc, etc.Sure, he's still a wizard, but the question is who's the best Illusionist, not who's the most powerful character. An illusionist wizard doesn't start with cool tricks until level 6, though as Rukelnikov notes, there are a few tricks Malleable Illusion is good for even before you have illusions at will. Heck, magic mouth becomes amazingly flexible with Malleable Illusions.


Regarding Illusions propers, Malleable Illusions at lvl 6 allows for some pretty neat things, while you don't get Disguise Self at will, a single casting of Disguise Self or Silent Image effectively means either spell at will for its duration, Illusory Script becomes a paper that reads whatever I want for 10 days, Magic Mouth says whatever I want and lasts until dispelled. And at lvl 7 you already get Hallucinatory Terrain.

So IMO Illusionist is only clearly behind until lvl 6 (and only in the illusions proper department), and by lvl 7 its already context dependant who is the better Illusionist.
Being behind in the thing the class is named for is a major design flaw, to me. Hallucinatory terrain is fun, but hard to use well when so much of D&D takes place in or near structures. Disguise self and silent image don't really last long enough to make them useful with Malleable Illusions in a practical sense; it's a ribbon more than a useful trick (under most circumstances; every now and again changing who you are every other round is a useful thing to have in your bag of tricks). Illusory script, though, you're right: it's amazing. It stops being about hiding messages and becomes about having writing of any sort you need on demand.

Magic mouth becomes older-edition ventriloquism, too, as you change its location and what it's programmed to say more or less at will and in real time.

I think a large part of my problems would go away if silent image just didn't have the hard 10 minute duration.

[Rukelnikov]

It's okay, but it's kind-of a one-trick pony. Minor illusion doesn't even really benefit all that much from the ability to get both sound and image at the same time if your DM rules very restrictively on how much motion (I've seen people on this forum argue it's "none") an image can have.

Its not specially better on an Illusionist than when cast by anyone else. And I'm in the camp that it has no motion at all, an image is static.


Which makes the Illusionist level 2 ability nearly worthless; you may as well be playing a subclassless wizard until level 6.

Agreed. However that's why I remarked you are still a wizard, so even if sublclassless, you are very powerful.


Sure, he's still a wizard, but the question is who's the best Illusionist, not who's the most powerful character. An illusionist wizard doesn't start with cool tricks until level 6, though as Rukelnikov notes, there are a few tricks Malleable Illusion is good for even before you have illusions at will. Heck, magic mouth becomes amazingly flexible with Malleable Illusions.

Yup, I know, you are not really better at illusions than any other Wizard, and maybe worse than a Sorc or Lock focused on illusions, but that doesn't mean "you are bad at illusions", you are pretty decent actually.

IMO the 2nd lvl feature was sacrificed in order to justify Illusory Reality and, to an extent, also Malleable Illusions.


Being behind in the thing the class is named for is a major design flaw, to me.

You are still the undisputed master of illusion from lvl 11 onwards, so it doesn't bother me that others can shine at the beginning of the race, the class does justice to its name in the long run. Its a subjective matter though.


Hallucinatory terrain is fun, but hard to use well when so much of D&D takes place in or near structures.

Yeah... but it also takes a lot of place in caves, and those are natural terrains, or when having to break and enter in a house in the middle of the swamp, or a tower atop a hill, etc, you can generally take 10 minutes before entering so the Illusionist can control the surrounding aspect. It's context specific, but when the context presents itself (like navigating thru a underdark cave complex) it becomes very good.


Disguise self and silent image don't really last long enough to make them useful with Malleable Illusions in a practical sense; it's a ribbon more than a useful trick (under most circumstances; every now and again changing who you are every other round is a useful thing to have in your bag of tricks). Illusory script, though, you're right: it's amazing. It stops being about hiding messages and becomes about having writing of any sort you need on demand.

Magic mouth becomes older-edition ventriloquism, too, as you change its location and what it's programmed to say more or less at will and in real time.

The sum of all the things you are mentioning gives me the impression MI is a pretty good feature at the level you get it, and grows increasingly powerful as you continue leveling up, IMO that means its a well designed feature.


I think a large part of my problems would go away if silent image just didn't have the hard 10 minute duration.

Hmm, seems like something so minor, what would change if it was an hour?

[Segev]

Its not specially better on an Illusionist than when cast by anyone else. And I'm in the camp that it has no motion at all, an image is static.



Agreed. However that's why I remarked you are still a wizard, so even if sublclassless, you are very powerful.



Yup, I know, you are not really better at illusions than any other Wizard, and maybe worse than a Sorc or Lock focused on illusions, but that doesn't mean "you are bad at illusions", you are pretty decent actually.That's the thing, though: would you say the Diviner should also be no better at Divination than any other wizard until level 6? Should be worse at it than, say, Bards and Druids until then? Should Evokers be worse at Evocation than Sorcerers until level 6? Of course not. This is not good design. Illusionists should not have to wait for level 6 to actually enter their subclass. No matter how good their level 6 feature is.


IMO the 2nd lvl feature was sacrificed in order to justify Illusory Reality and, to an extent, also Malleable Illusions.I'd actually reverse that: Malleable Illusions is the amazing power when you really stop to think about it and its interaction with the things the class is meant to do. Illusory Reality sounds awesome, and can do some cool things, but is far more situational and less likely to be impactful when you consider all the limitations on it (barring some liberal interpretations of what it means to be both illusion and reality and the control this allows the illusionist over it, though even then it's cool, but not as powerful as it initially sounds).

But Malleable Illusions makes the subclass. Only in combination with spells they don't get until at least level 3 (and not amazingly until level 11), but it is the Big Cool Thing that really lets you play an Illusionist.


You are still the undisputed master of illusion from lvl 11 onwards, so it doesn't bother me that others can shine at the beginning of the race, the class does justice to its name in the long run. Its a subjective matter though.It does bother me. "Wizard doesn't actually get a subclass until level 11" is not good design.


Yeah... but it also takes a lot of place in caves, and those are natural terrains, or when having to break and enter in a house in the middle of the swamp, or a tower atop a hill, etc, you can generally take 10 minutes before entering so the Illusionist can control the surrounding aspect. It's context specific, but when the context presents itself (like navigating thru a underdark cave complex) it becomes very good.How useful is that, really? Unlike mirage arcane, hallucinatory terrain has no tactile function. The terrain you're illusioning up is going to fool your party almost as much as the enemies, and you can't fix difficult terrain nor introduce it to your advantage.


The sum of all the things you are mentioning gives me the impression MI is a pretty good feature at the level you get it, and grows increasingly powerful as you continue leveling up, IMO that means its a well designed feature.It is! Sadly, the 2nd level feature is practically non-existent. And actively discourages the would-be Illusionist from choosing minor illusion at first level! (I always house-rule it to allow an illusionist who already knows it to choose any other wizard cantrip at that point).


Hmm, seems like something so minor, what would change if it was an hour?Well, it'd be more useful with Malleable Illusions, as it would last for more than one encounter, especially if there's time between them. Frankly, I'd extend it to Concentration, up to one day, as the Illusionist's second level power. This would let him have minor illusion for sound and keep a useful illusion around him most of the day at low level, making the ability to cast it again to switch out what it is almost as useful as the Warlock's invocation. Not quite, yet, as the Warlock can pull off something akin to Malleable Illusions with his infinite re-casting at will, but approaching it. The Warlock's still better, but not so much that it makes the Illusionist feel like he may as well not have a subclass.

I'd prefer something more unique, still, but I haven't yet thought of something good that isn't too good for 2nd level.

Maybe removing the limit on number of minor illusions? That'd be unique, play to what the 2nd level power already does (modifying minor illusion), and still be limited by the limits of what a minor illusion can be.

Alternatively, especialy in games with DMs who believe minor illusion images are static, granting the ability to manipulate the minor illusion image to cause it to "move naturally as if it were real." Still no tactile presence, but picking up an illusory coin would have it follow the hand of whoever picked it up. Though they're not there and don't impede motion or even block a breeze, the leaves of the illusory shrub rustle and sway according to the wind.

[Rukelnikov]

That's the thing, though: would you say the Diviner should also be no better at Divination than any other wizard until level 6? Should be worse at it than, say, Bards and Druids until then? Should Evokers be worse at Evocation than Sorcerers until level 6? Of course not. This is not good design. Illusionists should not have to wait for level 6 to actually enter their subclass. No matter how good their level 6 feature is.

Clerics are better at divination than a Diviner, Arcana and Knowledge in particular.


I'd actually reverse that: Malleable Illusions is the amazing power when you really stop to think about it and its interaction with the things the class is meant to do. Illusory Reality sounds awesome, and can do some cool things, but is far more situational and less likely to be impactful when you consider all the limitations on it (barring some liberal interpretations of what it means to be both illusion and reality and the control this allows the illusionist over it, though even then it's cool, but not as powerful as it initially sounds).

But Malleable Illusions makes the subclass. Only in combination with spells they don't get until at least level 3 (and not amazingly until level 11), but it is the Big Cool Thing that really lets you play an Illusionist.

Hmm yeah, maybe it is, I feel Illusory Reality is literal reality warping and thus more powerful, but its pointless to argue this, by that point we both agree its leaps and bounds the best illusionist.


It does bother me. "Wizard doesn't actually get a subclass until level 11" is not good design.

That a false statement IMO, while 2nd lvl feature might as well not be there, malleable illusions is useful since the moment you get it. And it tells.


How useful is that, really? Unlike mirage arcane, hallucinatory terrain has no tactile function. The terrain you're illusioning up is going to fool your party almost as much as the enemies, and you can't fix difficult terrain nor introduce it to your advantage.

Hiding paths in the caves, creating vegetation for cover or removing it, murkying the waters of a lake for cover, idk. Mostly preventing/making it harder enemies for enemies to find you.


It is! Sadly, the 2nd level feature is practically non-existent. And actively discourages the would-be Illusionist from choosing minor illusion at first level! (I always house-rule it to allow an illusionist who already knows it to choose any other wizard cantrip at that point).

I think the put that rule in an errata or the SAC.

[MaxWilson]

I've never really thought about it before but this thread is inspiring me to look for ways to use Improved Minor Illusion in a way that isn't useless.

(1) Maybe you could use it to make an coat rack or something to hide behind, and then cast Silent Image from inside the crate, and use Minor Illusion to supply sounds for the image. A normal wizard couldn't do that without the coat rack vanishing.

That's pretty niche, I know, but the point is that you don't have to use the sounds to support the unmoving image. The sounds are already the best part of Minor Illusion anyway, so just think of it as "when you create sounds you get to make an image too."

(2) Another potential example: Illusionist w/ Silent Image can make an illusionary hill giant guarding an illusionary treasure, complete with sound effects, as a distraction. A normal mage couldn't pull that off because of concentration limitations.


Alternatively, especialy in games with DMs who believe minor illusion images are static, granting the ability to manipulate the minor illusion image to cause it to "move naturally as if it were real." Still no tactile presence, but picking up an illusory coin would have it follow the hand of whoever picked it up. Though they're not there and don't impede motion or even block a breeze, the leaves of the illusory shrub rustle and sway according to the wind.

That would be amazing! I'd vastly prefer that to the current Improved Minor Illusion ability. Would play that illusionist in a heartbeat.

[AdAstra]

I very much want to play a post-level-11 Illusionist. From carrying around "pet" illusions I can remake at a whim to rewriting entire cities, it'll just be so much fun.

I just wish that the choice wasn't "good at low level, okay-ish at high" or "meh at low level, amazing at high." The 2nd level feature needs something to make the ability to illusion at will a bit better. Either that, or minor illusion is supposed to be better than most people treat it as.

I remember reading something along these lines before around here, and someone pointed out that you need an action to move the illusion around, and you can't move it around since it's intangible, it's kinda inconvenient to take with you in many cases. Depending on your DM it may not be a big issue to move a few with you as you travel (since the illusion can move anywhere within range, so it has a "movement speed" of up to 240 ft). But in a hasty escape or long running battle, you'll probably have to leave them behind. Not the biggest problem, but definitely an inconvenience.

[Nuriri Royal]

Totally the sorcerer king is so strong!!!

Strong as hell!

[XmonkTad]

Try going pact of the chain and send your invisible familiar in to scout and spy on the person you want to mimic, spend some time listening and watching through its senses then disguise self into that person and mimic their speech with the actor feat.

That's the pact I ultimately ended up choosing. Grabbed a sprite familiar so that I could have it touch people during conversations and relay their emotional state to me telepathically. We'll see how it works out. But using my scout to figure out mannerisms for the actor feat is a great idea! I'm a pretty mediocre illusionist, but quite good at social encounters (especially ones that last less than a minute).

[Segev]

Clerics are better at divination than a Diviner, Arcana and Knowledge in particular.Not at low level, certainly, and Diviners get a low-level feature that nobody else can easily replicate. Portent may synergize well with Lucky, but Lucky doesn't replace it.


Hmm yeah, maybe it is, I feel Illusory Reality is literal reality warping and thus more powerful, but its pointless to argue this, by that point we both agree its leaps and bounds the best illusionist.Agreed. Because I can't help but argue, I'll say that Malleable Illusions is more flexible and more utility-strong, but I agree that from a standpoint of "which sounds like the more magically-potent ability?" Illusory Reality probably wins. I just struggle to find uses for it that stand out compared to Malleable Illusions and extant illusion spells at the level involved.

It helps a lot if the GM rules that, despite being real, it's also still part of your illusion, and you can thus do with it whatever you would with an illusion. For example, if an illusory giant is holding a tower shield to block the way, and you make the tower shield real, does the fact that it's real but the giant is an illusion cause the shield to have no support, and fall? Or does the fact that it's part of the larger illusion mean that the tower shield is still supported by the strength of an illusory giant?

If you make the illusory giant's dress real, does it fall through her, collapsing on things, or does it stay hovering in place, letting people climb up the now-real fabric to get to higher ground?

There's a LOT of chicanery you can get up to if the Illusory Reality objects remain able to interact with the rest of the illusion. It starts to feel lame, to me, if not, because suddenly the now-real item reveals the falsehood of the rest of the illusion by collapsing, falling, or otherwise passing right through the still-illusory images.


Hiding paths in the caves, creating vegetation for cover or removing it, murkying the waters of a lake for cover, idk. Mostly preventing/making it harder enemies for enemies to find you.I don't think you can remove vegetation; minor illusion doesn't make things that really are there invisible. Could be amusing if you could create an image of an invisible object, though: fool only those who can see the invisible (but lack truesight that would reveal the illusion anyway).


I think the put that rule in an errata or the SAC.What's "SAC" short for? If so, that's good; I got the one DM I played an illusionist with to house rule it so I could start with minor illusion at level 1 and not be down a cantrip, but it's good to not have it need house ruling.


I've never really thought about it before but this thread is inspiring me to look for ways to use Improved Minor Illusion in a way that isn't useless.

(1) Maybe you could use it to make an coat rack or something to hide behind, and then cast Silent Image from inside the crate, and use Minor Illusion to supply sounds for the image. A normal wizard couldn't do that without the coat rack vanishing.

That's pretty niche, I know, but the point is that you don't have to use the sounds to support the unmoving image. The sounds are already the best part of Minor Illusion anyway, so just think of it as "when you create sounds you get to make an image too."

(2) Another potential example: Illusionist w/ Silent Image can make an illusionary hill giant guarding an illusionary treasure, complete with sound effects, as a distraction. A normal mage couldn't pull that off because of concentration limitations.Any wizard can use minor illusion with silent image for a pseudo major image, but yes, the ability to have a second illusion is helpful. That said, though, the sound has to originate from the same square that the minor illusion's image occupies, doesn't it?



Alternatively, especialy in games with DMs who believe minor illusion images are static, granting the ability to manipulate the minor illusion image to cause it to "move naturally as if it were real." Still no tactile presence, but picking up an illusory coin would have it follow the hand of whoever picked it up. Though they're not there and don't impede motion or even block a breeze, the leaves of the illusory shrub rustle and sway according to the wind.


That would be amazing! I'd vastly prefer that to the current Improved Minor Illusion ability. Would play that illusionist in a heartbeat.

I took the liberty of writing it up and discussing it a bit in the homebrew section. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?588936-Wizard-Illusionist-s-Improved-Minor-Illusion&p=23937778) I'll definitely try to talk my next 5e DM into letting me try it out.

The ToA game I'm running's wizard went Diviner, so I won't get any playtesting there. I'm glad he did, mind: he has only had Portent for one session, and has already reveled in the ability to declare that the giant crocodile they inappropriatley encountered rolled an 8 on its dex save.