Polymorph?

[Mad_Saulot]

Two of my players just got access to Polymorph which we were pretty stoked about, spent most of the night talking about all the cool things you could become, then mister ready mcbook says you can only transform into beasts, thats took the joy out of it completely.

My question is would it be game breaking if I allowed polymorph to transform into more than just beasts?

The spell says that you can transform into a beast with a CR equal to or less than the characters level so 7 for my players.

Is there a difference between a CR 7 Beast and a CR 7 monster?

Here is the spells description:

Polymorph

This spell transforms a creature with at least 1 hit point that you can see within range into a new form. An unwilling creature must make a Wisdom saving throw to avoid the effect. A Shapechanger automatically succeeds on this saving throw.

The transformation lasts for the Duration, or until the target drops to 0 Hit Points or dies. The new form can be any beast whose Challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's (or the target's level, if it doesn't have a Challenge rating). The target's game Statistics, including mental Ability Scores, are replaced by the Statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its Alignment and personality.

The target assumes the Hit Points of its new form. When it reverts to its normal form, the creature returns to the number of Hit Points it had before it transformed. If it reverts as a result of Dropping to 0 Hit Points, any excess damage carries over to its normal form. As long as the excess damage doesn't reduce the creature's normal form to 0 Hit Points, it isn't knocked Unconscious.

The creature is limited in the Actions it can perform by the Nature of its new form, and it can't speak, cast Spells, or take any other action that requires hands or Speech.

The target's gear melds into the new form. The creature can't activate, use, wield, or otherwise benefit from any of its Equipment.

[diplomancer]

At that level, probably not that big of a difference (though versatility is power in and of itself, so just being able to Polymorph into more creatures will make the spell more powerful- and it is powerful enough as it is-, even if each individual creature is not stronger than a CR X Beast), but as the characters gain in level it will be huge (I think the highest CR Beast is the T-Rex, at 8)

[Mad_Saulot]

So by RAW Polymorph is nerf-fixed at level 8? Well that sucks

[ImproperJustice]

True Polymorph is out there.
It’s a 9th level spell and allows for object, and creature to creature transformations to a CR equal or lower than the creature being transformed.

[Keravath]

Beasts tend to have a lot of hit points and good physical attacks. That is typically all. This makes them very manageable from a balance perspective. It is an extremely effective spell when cast on a front line fighter with only a few hit points remaining, transforming them into a Giant Ape, T-rex or other beast with a lot of hit points.

Keep in mind that a equivalent CR monster is supposed to be a decent fight for a party of 4 equivalently leveled characters and there are many examples where CR doesn't correlate that well with actual strength.

Allowing any equivalent CR monster turns the spell from decent to overpowered.

As an example:
A giant ape is a CR7 beast (decent hit points, 2 melee attacks or one ranged) ... however the following are also CR7
- an air elemental myrmidon (3 attacks, many damage resistances, fly, lightning strike ability)
- young black and copper dragons (recharging breath weapons, fly speed, swim speed, enhanced senses, 3 attacks)
- Mindflayer
- Yuan-ti Abomination
- Vrock - CR6 - (2 attacks, spores, stunning screech, fly, enhanced senses, lots of damage resistances)

... and once they reach level 13 they could turn into a Beholder.

Basically, opening up the options to any appropriate CR creature rather than just beasts essentially mimics much of the capability of the 9th level spell True Polymorph. In my opinion, the spell would be way overpowered but it is your game and the decision is up to the DM.

[darknite]

True Polymorph is out there.
It’s a 9th level spell and allows for object, and creature to creature transformations to a CR equal or lower than the creature being transformed.

This. Polymorph on its' own is very powerful. True Polymorph is even better (and should be, given its' a 9th level spell).

[Mad_Saulot]

like why is a Tiger so ****, sure it could maul a level zero character but thats not kewl, once you level up a couple of times a tiger may as well be a kitten.

[darknite]

like why is a Tiger so ****, sure it could maul a level zero character but thats not kewl, once you level up a couple of times a tiger may as well be a kitten.

5e should have more templates for making more potent versions of creatures.

[Xihirli]

If you want to make a CR 7 Tiger-like creature you can look at the stats for a Giant Ape and Tiger and make the Tiger's math roughly equivalent to the Giant Ape's.


Dire Tiger
Huge beast, unaligned
Armor Class 12
Hit Points 157 (15d12+60)
Speed 50 ft.

STR
23 (+6)

DEX
15 (+2)

CON
14 (+2)

INT
3 (-4)

WIS
12 (+1)

CHA
8 (-1)

Skills Athletics +9, Perception +4, Stealth +5
Challenge 7 (2,900 XP)
Keen Smell. The dire tiger has advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on smell.

Actions
Multiattack. The dire tiger makes two attacks - one with its bite and one with its claws.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +9 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 22 (3d10 + 6) piercing damage.
Claw. Melee Weapon Attack: +9 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: 19 (3d8 + 6) slashing damage.

[Mad_Saulot]

So, would it be game breaking to allow a player to transform into any creature type?

What if I limited it to half the CR of the players level to adjust for the variety equals power concept?

[darknite]

If you want to make a CR 7 Tiger-like creature you can look at the stats for a Giant Ape and Tiger and make the Tiger's math roughly equivalent to the Giant Ape's.



Sure, you can reskin, but that's a bandaid to the more significant issue of not having a way to effectively scale up opposition on an individual basis.

[allthingslich]

My question is would it be game breaking if I allowed polymorph to transform into more than just beasts?


I find that Polymorph is insanely powerful as it is, I'd hate to have to wrangle in more power. I personally wouldn't allow it. As for your question about CR Beast vs. CR Monster, I don't see much difference, but that's often based on the make-up of your party. Monsters have more "things" and fiddly bits. Beasts are simpler. (Ex: You need magic weapons vs. monsters. Monsters have regen, etc.) - all things to consider if your parties damage output is very high (the latter) or if they don't have magic items (the former).

[Xihirli]

A: So, would it be game breaking to allow a player to transform into any creature type?

B: What if I limited it to half the CR of the players level to adjust for the variety equals power concept?

(Lettering mine)

A: Yes.

B: Eh, probably still. Monsters are designed differently from PCs, and they can do a lot of things PCs can't. Consider Etherealness, a seventh level spell, and ask why you would take that over Polymorphing somebody into a ghost six levels earlier.

There are only a few ways to get damage immunities in the game that I'm aware of, and most of them give poison immunity. Polymorph would give dozens.

Consider also that if you're allowing them to Polymorph each other into creatures with Spellcasting or Innate Spellcasting they can trade one 4th level spell slot for 2 3rd level slots from a Deathlock or a 5th level character's entire array of slots on a Naga.


Polymorph is one of the best spells for its level. It doesn't really need a buff.

[some guy]

So, would it be game breaking to allow a player to transform into any creature type?

What if I limited it to half the CR of the players level to adjust for the variety equals power concept?

Keravath already made an excellent reply:


Allowing any equivalent CR monster turns the spell from decent to overpowered.

As an example:
A giant ape is a CR7 beast (decent hit points, 2 melee attacks or one ranged) ... however the following are also CR7
- an air elemental myrmidon (3 attacks, many damage resistances, fly, lightning strike ability)
- young black and copper dragons (recharging breath weapons, fly speed, swim speed, enhanced senses, 3 attacks)
- Mindflayer
- Yuan-ti Abomination
- Vrock - CR6 - (2 attacks, spores, stunning screech, fly, enhanced senses, lots of damage resistances)

... and once they reach level 13 they could turn into a Beholder.

The problem is that you can't know what to expect when polymorph is open to all types. Beasts are mostly always big bruisers, simple, and they don't require a lot of bookflipping or time. If polymorph is open to all types, you're players could turn into a drow mage at level 7. A drow mage has 2 level 5 slots and 3 level 4 (and a bunch more lower level), so with 1 level 4 spell you create an immense surge of power. Even if you'd limit it to 1/2 CR the players would still be able to turn into a CR 3 Illusionist with 1 level 4 slot and a bunch more lower level ones. It would still be the most versatile and powerfull spell.


like why is a Tiger so ****, sure it could maul a level zero character but thats not kewl, once you level up a couple of times a tiger may as well be a kitten.

At level 7 a player can turn into freaking King Kong. You don't think turning into freaking King Kong and go ape on your enemies is awesome?

[diplomancer]

If, as a DM, you feel like you really want to give more options to your players for Polymorph (knowing full well that you are already making a very good spell better), I would look more at the "beastly monstrosities", things like Manticores, Gryphons, etc.

Would be a considerable power-up, but still keep things more or less sane. Avoid intelligent creatures, avoid creatures with spell-casting.

[Mad_Saulot]

(Lettering mine)

A: Yes.

B: Eh, probably still. Monsters are designed differently from PCs, and they can do a lot of things PCs can't. Consider Etherealness, a seventh level spell, and ask why you would take that over Polymorphing somebody into a ghost six levels earlier.

There are only a few ways to get damage immunities in the game that I'm aware of, and most of them give poison immunity. Polymorph would give dozens.

Consider also that if you're allowing them to Polymorph each other into creatures with Spellcasting or Innate Spellcasting they can trade one 4th level spell slot for 2 3rd level slots from a Deathlock or a 5th level character's entire array of slots on a Naga.


Polymorph is one of the best spells for its level. It doesn't really need a buff.

OK but what if I limited it to half CR and ban undead, constructs, spellcasters, fiends and celestials?

I'm ttrying to understand the diff between a cr7 beast and cr7 monster, you all seem to suggest that monsters of equal cr are always superior?

in which case doesnt that shed a light on the cr system being...broken?

[Unoriginal]

My question is would it be game breaking if I allowed polymorph to transform into more than just beasts?

Yes.

Beasts are limited in many ways. Limiting it to Beasts is a feature, not a bug.

[darknite]

...

in which case doesnt that shed a light on the cr system being...broken?

What!? Really?! When did this happen!? :smallwink:

[Mad_Saulot]

I should mention I dont give out exp, and my players are a mountain dwarf barbarian, a gnome monk, and a dragonborn paladin, they have a abjurer wizard that can lock down half a crowd of baddies with crowd control magics and a warlock which was created to be more academic than combatant, the 3 fighters are fully capable of defeating most things, they just wiped the floor with a pack of 3 young white dragons. would it really make a diff if the warlock or wizard could transform into a cr7 monster considering it stops them casting anymore spells?

[DrLoveMonkey]

I think it depends on your adventuring balance and how much the other players can/want to contribute as well as how valuable spells slots are. For combat balance there’s definitely a few monsters to watch out for, and also obviously a lot of hard counters exist that can be extremely powerful. Like if your foe has a ton of fire damage becoming a fire immune red dragon is king.

The thing with Polymorph, even if it’s just beasts, is that it can mimic or well exceed things the other members are best at. For example recently in my game we wanted to go scouting out this place to see what was in it, and given the option for a level 11 thief rogue with a Cloak of Elvenkind vs the wizard with Polymorph the wizard was by far the more obvious choice. Just become a bat and go check out the area completely suspicion free.

If you have a ton of combats or encounters per day it’s not so bad, at least at low level, because it usually won’t be worth using your max level slot to fix a problem that another PC can at least attempt. If you tend to only have 1-2 though it’s often a no-brainer for the wizard to just fix it. Again, at least three times in my most recent campaign the Wizard became a giant ape and performed superhuman feats of strength while the fighter sat by the sidelines.

So I’d say do it, but with caution and reserving the right to maybe ban certain creatures, if your adventure is very combat heavy, and especially if it has multiple encounters per day. If not you could still do it, just as long as the monk and barbarian are reasonably well aware that they won’t be as good a ninja as the wizard who’s become a Shadow Horror, or as powerful a strongman as the one who’s become a Stone Giant.

Of course on the other hand being able to just browse through the Monster Manual and become any creature to suit your needs IS really fun.

[Mad_Saulot]

I think it depends on your adventuring balance and how much the other players can/want to contribute as well as how valuable spells slots are. For combat balance there’s definitely a few monsters to watch out for, and also obviously a lot of hard counters exist that can be extremely powerful. Like if your foe has a ton of fire damage becoming a fire immune red dragon is king.

The thing with Polymorph, even if it’s just beasts, is that it can mimic or well exceed things the other members are best at. For example recently in my game we wanted to go scouting out this place to see what was in it, and given the option for a level 11 thief rogue with a Cloak of Elvenkind vs the wizard with Polymorph the wizard was by far the more obvious choice. Just become a bat and go check out the area completely suspicion free.

If you have a ton of combats or encounters per day it’s not so bad, at least at low level, because it usually won’t be worth using your max level slot to fix a problem that another PC can at least attempt. If you tend to only have 1-2 though it’s often a no-brainer for the wizard to just fix it. Again, at least three times in my most recent campaign the Wizard became a giant ape and performed superhuman feats of strength while the fighter sat by the sidelines.

So I’d say do it, but with caution and reserving the right to maybe ban certain creatures, if your adventure is very combat heavy, and especially if it has multiple encounters per day. If not you could still do it, just as long as the monk and barbarian are reasonably well aware that they won’t be as good a ninja as the wizard who’s become a Shadow Horror, or as powerful a strongman as the one who’s become a Stone Giant.

Of course on the other hand being able to just browse through the Monster Manual and become any creature to suit your needs IS really fun.

Cheers for the well thought out answer, I get what you are saying with regards to role crossing, but take your scout example, my wizard has an owl familiar and the warlock has a bat familiar, they could use their familiars to scout out a place and be better at it than a rogue (although we dont have a rogue). We also dont have a dedicated healer either, the paladin is all about smites. So my party arent too fussed about typical role fittings, theyre just a little more cautious than an average group and cover their gaps with shock and awe tactics.

If the wizard or warlock became say (at level 7) a young black dragon wouldnt that be a fair trade for the ability to cast magic, given that the players are already combat heavy murderaddicts?

Also, if I allowed it the spell itself would apply to all casters of that spell, so if the players can do it their enemieres can too, is this not balance?

[MaxWilson]

Two of my players just got access to Polymorph which we were pretty stoked about, spent most of the night talking about all the cool things you could become, then mister ready mcbook says you can only transform into beasts, thats took the joy out of it completely.

My question is would it be game breaking if I allowed polymorph to transform into more than just beasts?

The spell says that you can transform into a beast with a CR equal to or less than the characters level so 7 for my players.

Is there a difference between a CR 7 Beast and a CR 7 monster?

There's no important game-mechanical difference. As DM you can invent any monsters you like, and you can make all of them beasts of you want to. It's a flavor restriction: beasts are typically animals you could at least imagine existing in real life. If you want a 50' tall CR 20 Gargantuan Ape (King Kong) you can make one; but as a matter of convention you probably wouldn't give it magical abilities like teleportation or magic resistance. But you could if you wanted to, and if you did it would be a valid target form for Polymorph.

When the player says, "I Polymorph into XYZ" it's up to you to come up with appropriate stats or say "there's no such XYZ among the beasts." Polymorph is a broken spell but there's no reason not to have fun with it if you feel like it, as a DM. If someone wants to become a flying squirrel with a 40' wingspan, and you want to allow it, RAW says you absolutely can. (Not that RAW should stop you from doing your game the way you like it, anyway.)

[Unoriginal]

in which case doesnt that shed a light on the cr system being...broken?

The CR system works exactly as intended.

Thing is, there are different ways of getting CR 7, for example, and some of those ways are more advantageous when in players' hands.

There are also a lot of powers that do not affect CR, despite their usefulness. Because it's not what CR calculates.

[Frozenstep]

If the wizard or warlock became say (at level 7) a young black dragon wouldnt that be a fair trade for the ability to cast magic, given that the players are already combat heavy murderaddicts?

Also, if I allowed it the spell itself would apply to all casters of that spell, so if the players can do it their enemieres can too, is this not balance?

You can cast polymorph on other party members, though, so they can just turn the barbarian into a dragon and resume casting.

Giving it to enemies doesn't balance it, because what are your non-spellcasters doing? Dealing with your spellcasters being even more broken, and the enemies being in tougher just to balance it, so they'll feel all the weaker by comparison if you gave monks the ability to instantly kill anything without a saving throw or even an attack roll at level 1, it wouldn't balanced if enemies monks could do it too, right?

Look, polymorph is limited because it's already an insane spell. One 4th level spell slot, and suddenly one of your party members can tank 150~ hp worth of damage, and then once that runs out, they're still at whatever hp they were at before without any resources used up. This is why people refer to it as a heal, it puts this massive block of hp for enemies to deal with.

What helps balance this out is beasts do not have magical attacks, do not have any crazy special abilities, and usually a low armor class. Against players, they can still earn their CR because players usually don't have access to resistance from physical attacks (unless it's a barbarian) and so their attacks hurt, but against most monsters they'll run into resistance to non-magical damage and hoards of things that can hit a low AC target, which helps tame this spell. The fact that no beast goes beyond the great ape or t-rex also means the spell doesn't scale up to be insane as the levels go on (similar to other spells. A 3rd level fireball isn't going to wipe encounters at level 17 like it did at level 5, why should a 4th level spell get to wipe an encounter at level 17 by letting you turn into an adult gold dragon?)

But other creature types have things that are roughly equally difficult for players to deal with, but against monsters it can just break encounters. Resistance to non-magical damage? Usually not a big deal to most parties, but can trivialize monsters. Not to mention really dangerous abilities that weren't meant to be given to players (at least, not until true polymorph, when everything is expected to be insane). Got an awesome final encounter with an evil mage loaded with magic items at level 13? Turn into a beholder and put the anti-magic cone on them and watch the encounter break.

[MaxWilson]

in which case doesnt that shed a light on the cr system being...broken?

If by "broken" you mean "not a good measure of power," then yes, it's broken. CR is nothing but a crude measure of how dangerous a monster is in a slugging contest in a boxing ring. Since adventurers aren't actually restricted to boxing rings, and neither are smart monsters, CR isn't really measuring anything useful to an experienced DM.

It's mostly just a crude at-a-glance summary of brute strength, and a fairly-arbitrary way of determining how much XP and treasure you get for killing it. For a laugh, compare the stats of a CR 6 Young White Dragon and a CR 8 Young Green Dragon. They are almost identical, but Green Dragons give more XP.

[DrLoveMonkey]

If the wizard or warlock became say (at level 7) a young black dragon wouldnt that be a fair trade for the ability to cast magic, given that the players are already combat heavy murderaddicts?

Also, if I allowed it the spell itself would apply to all casters of that spell, so if the players can do it their enemieres can too, is this not balance?

The wizard becoming a young black dragon is nooot really super balanced. It’s a spell so it should do something, of course, but consider this. A regular level 7 wizard might upcast a lightning bolt to a level 4 slot, dealing about 31 damage in a line. The young black dragon deals 49 with its breath weapon that it can use every combat at least once, and potentially several times.

So already that’s pretty solid, but it takes a turn to set up, so that can be a balancing factor. On the other hand you also get a lightning fast fly speed, that you can combine with the breath weapon to spray lines of acid from the air with impunity, a 127 hp overshield that protects you, immunity to acid, water breating, swim speed, darkvision and blindsight, and then while your breath weapon is on recharge you get two claw attacks that hit as hard as a greatsword and a bite that hits much harder than that, at a level where the fighter types only get two attacks.

Then as you scale out of the young dragon range into the adult range add on their fear aura to the multiattack.


The overshield part and the attacks alone are really good. Your two claw attacks are probably not going to be better than the barbarian’s two rage attacks, but then with the 2d10 + 4 + 1d8 bite you’re likely to catch up or even surpass him, and then at the end of the combat when you’ve both taken 80 damage they actually have to heal theirs back with their own hitdice, whereas you can spend the dragon’s hitdice to do yours, and if the spell drops you return to your maximum wizard HP anyway.

If you give it to the bad guys too and they use it like that they will be decently powerful, but you’ll now have a bit of a disparity where a CR 11 wizard foe who starts the battle Polymorphig into a CR 11 monster becomes a lot harder than that equivalent CR11 monster would be alone.

Also if you’re getting to the level where True Polymorph is available that spell because really really bad. It’s level 9 vs 4 and all it does better at that point is objects, basically.

[Mad_Saulot]

some good posts here cheers for taking part in this discussion.

ok what if I got rid of the overshield/heal thing?

It could work like this:

a level 7 wizard with 35 hitpoints transforms into a creature with 100 hitpoints, it could be that the excess hitpoints (65) over the wizards original counts as temporary hitpoints and when the creature gets to 35 hitpoints the wizard starts taking actual damage to his original form, if reduced to zero the wizard falls unconscious and resumes his true form, but is now unconscious.

Would this eliminate the heal/overshield element of polymorph?

[DrLoveMonkey]

some good posts here cheers for taking part in this discussion.

ok what if I got rid of the overshield/heal thing?

It could work like this:

a level 7 wizard with 35 hitpoints transforms into a creature with 100 hitpoints, it could be that the excess hitpoints (65) over the wizards original counts as temporary hitpoints and when the creature gets to 35 hitpoints the wizard starts taking actual damage to his original form, if reduced to zero the wizard falls unconscious and resumes his true form, but is now unconscious.

Would this eliminate the heal/overshield element of polymorph?

That would certainly help, although it would incentivize pretty heavily using it on low HP allies. With those houserules it would still be one of if not flatly THE best fourth level spells in the game.

You could also always just run it as written except allow all creatures and just see how it goes. For sure it will allow the two Polymorph era to become vastly more powerful and versatile than the martial classes, moreso than usual, but it doesn’t break the game in the same way as an infinite loop that leads to infinite damage or something would. If all the players are cool with it and having fun then there’s no problems. Just remember that the DM is a player too and if you’re not having fun because all of your encounters are being bulldozed through by a pair of dragons that’s not acceptable either.

If I were to do that, I would also recommend VERY strictly enforcing the rules of Polymorph. If their new form only speak abyssal, then they can’t communicate with the party, if it lacks fine manipulators, like human sized fingers, it can’t punch in the temple keystone combination. It’s not much of a hinderance to be honest but you’re giving them so much already.


Also you say one of them is a warlock? How are they getting Polymorph? Considering the way warlock spells work they’re going to be even crazier than the wizard here potentially.

[MaxWilson]

some good posts here cheers for taking part in this discussion.

ok what if I got rid of the overshield/heal thing?

It could work like this:

a level 7 wizard with 35 hitpoints transforms into a creature with 100 hitpoints, it could be that the excess hitpoints (65) over the wizards original counts as temporary hitpoints and when the creature gets to 35 hitpoints the wizard starts taking actual damage to his original form, if reduced to zero the wizard falls unconscious and resumes his true form, but is now unconscious.

Would this eliminate the heal/overshield element of polymorph?

No, you still get a bunch of temp HP, so it still works as a heal/overshield spell.

If you want to rebalance Polymorph, base it on AD&D Polymorph Self:

When you assume the form of another creature, you get its physical stats (Str/Dex/Con, movement speed, nonmagical AC, nonmagical Attacks but not Multiattack options or special abilities), but you keep your own HP. If you were an almost-dead human being before you turned into a crocodile, you're now an almost-dead crocodile, and vice-versa. You keep your class features.

Result: a wizard now gains very little from Polymorphing himself into a T-Rex, because he's just a low-HP T-Rex without multiattack. He gains significantly more from transforming the party Monk into a T-Rex so it can be a very light-footed T-Rex that dashes all over the place biting things, or the Barbarian into a Raging T-Rex with Extra Attack and a bunch of HP. But the Barbarian is still using his own HP, so you're sort of trading defense for more mobility and offense, instead of vanilla Polymorph that gives you more of both.

Under this rewritten Polymorph, you could probably drop the "beast" restriction without issues, because even if they Polymorph into what looks a lot like a Glabrezu, they're just getting one Claw attack per turn and no extra spellcasting. It's still a good and versatile spell but no longer as overpowered, and it rewards teamwork.

[diplomancer]

That would certainly help, although it would incentivize pretty heavily using it on low HP allies. With those houserules it would still be one of if not flatly THE best fourth level spells in the game.

You could also always just run it as written except allow all creatures and just see how it goes. For sure it will allow the two Polymorph era to become vastly more powerful and versatile than the martial classes, moreso than usual, but it doesn’t break the game in the same way as an infinite loop that leads to infinite damage or something would. If all the players are cool with it and having fun then there’s no problems. Just remember that the DM is a player too and if you’re not having fun because all of your encounters are being bulldozed through by a pair of dragons that’s not acceptable either.

If I were to do that, I would also recommend VERY strictly enforcing the rules of Polymorph. If their new form only speak abyssal, then they can’t communicate with the party, if it lacks fine manipulators, like human sized fingers, it can’t punch in the temple keystone combination. It’s not much of a hinderance to be honest but you’re giving them so much already.


Also you say one of them is a warlock? How are they getting Polymorph? Considering the way warlock spells work they’re going to be even crazier than the wizard here potentially.

There is an invocation, but limits it to once per long rest, using a spell slot, so not so crazy (still, pretty much an invocation tax with this houserule)

[Karnitis]

1 Compound Word:

Whale-o-cane.

[Trustypeaches]

Alright, this is just not going to be balanced any way you slice it.

The sheer versatility of lifting the beast restriction is insane. There is a great range of monster abilities that are broken in the hands of PCs. The limitation of polymorph to beasts is 100% intentional balance wise and to lift it requires an EXTENSIVE rework of the spell entirely, the balance of which will be extremely hard to nail down.

Instead of trying to open up the list of monsters you can polymorph into, why don't you talk to your players about what kinds of creatures they want to polymorph into. What kinds of options do they want? Maybe you can even make a quest hook out of discovering new polymorph "formulae" that give the caster more options.

Using this method, you could tightly control what options you are adding into the mix while adding some genuinely interesting and balanced options in.

[Keravath]

Unless your martial party members have 3 attacks, keep in mind that a caster polymorphed into a Giant Ape will have more damaging attacks than your martial characters and more hit points. They get two attacks at +9 to hit each doing 3d10+6 AND they have 157 hit points. None of your barbarian, monk or paladin will have that much damage or that much hit points at level 7. Their attack rolls max out at +8 if they have a 20 stat. The Giant Ape will outperform all of the melee classes at level 7.

However, for some reason you don't think this is sufficient and want to allow the casters to completely overshadow the rest of the party by changing into dragons?

The only good thing about the idea is that it would look really cool. Until everyone realized how broken it was and the wizard started blowing spell slots to polymorph everyone into dragons or similarly powerful creatures.

Ultimately, its your game, its your choice, you asked for our opinions and most of us commented that allowing any CR7 creature is both completely broken and overpowered. Feel free to use those opinions or not as you see fit.

Even reducing the CR allowed to give some variety in creature forms is still likely to be OP since there are so many creatures with special abilities.

Personally, although the idea sounds really cool, I would keep the beast restriction. If you want to give some more variety pull in some additional beasts (particularly dinosaurs) from other approved sources and if that is still not enough then go through an pick out a dozen or so "special forms" that you will allow with polymorph and I would suggest that list not include dragons or some of the extremely overpowered options that could be available.

[Tanarii]

Could be worse. If the spell was balanced it'd be beasts with CR no more than 1/2 your level.

[Mad_Saulot]

Aye after reading all your posts I've decided to stick with polymorph as RAW.

One of the big probs I had with the spell is you can transform into any beast with a CR equal to your level, but that there are no beasts above CR8, so is this intentional, if I create beasts with higher than cr9 am I breaking the game still?

[Frozenstep]

Aye after reading all your posts I've decided to stick with polymorph as RAW.

One of the big probs I had with the spell is you can transform into any beast with a CR equal to your level, but that there are no beasts above CR8, so is this intentional, if I create beasts with higher than cr9 am I breaking the game still?

Slightly. As your casters get higher and higher in level, polymorph stops "scaling" at the giant ape/t-rex forms, but they're still very valuable for the amount of hp they have. Allowing polymorph to continue getting stronger as the players level while they still only spend the same spell slot will be pretty strong.

If you want beast-like enemies that won't break the balance of the game, make them a monstrosity or something.

If you do want new forms for your players to eventually use but still want some sense of balance, then maybe create the cr10+ beast but have it so that players can only polymorph into those forms if they spend a higher level spell slot on polymorph.

[MaxWilson]

Aye after reading all your posts I've decided to stick with polymorph as RAW.

One of the big probs I had with the spell is you can transform into any beast with a CR equal to your level, but that there are no beasts above CR8, so is this intentional, if I create beasts with higher than cr9 am I breaking the game still?

Possibly, but it's really the fault of the Polymorph designers--the game shouldn't be so fragile that inventing a new monster suddenly makes a PHB spell overpowered. If that was really their intent (and how could it have been since the MM came out after the PHB?) then they should have just written a CR cap into Polymorph in the first place, "Up to CR 8".

Note that there are already beasts higher than CR 8 in 5E products published by companies other than WotC's, e.g. Tomb of Beasts by Kobold Press.

[Dalebert]

Well... They did cap moon druids at CR 6 but wild shape is more powerful than Polymorph.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Polymorph (and the associated spells) were among the biggest sources of brokenness in 3e, rivaled only by spells that let you break action economy by summoning things (and thus giving access to the monster manuals). And that's saying something, because 3e was broken six ways to Sunday. Access to monster manual diving is obscenely powerful and unpredictably so. It also automatically increases in power whenever new monsters are published. This would be a hard no from me as a DM.

Not to mention, beasts are simple to run, and there just aren't that many good ones. The amount and variety of non-beasts means that you're going to spend lots of time flipping through books, and the greater complexity of the stat blocks means that turn lengths are going to go up. A guiding principle of 5e is to keep it simple.

[JackPhoenix]

Note that there are already beasts higher than CR 8 in 5E products published by companies other than WotC's, e.g. Tomb of Beasts by Kobold Press.

There are also CR 10 beasts in Plane Shift articles, overgrown Tyrannosaurus with legendary actions in Ixalan and gargantuan flying whale in Kaladesh. While the articles are published by WotC, both are semi-official at best, though. More like in-house homebrew, really.

[MaxWilson]

Polymorph (and the associated spells) were among the biggest sources of brokenness in 3e, rivaled only by spells that let you break action economy by summoning things (and thus giving access to the monster manuals). And that's saying something, because 3e was broken six ways to Sunday. Access to monster manual diving is obscenely powerful and unpredictably so. It also automatically increases in power whenever new monsters are published. This would be a hard no from me as a DM.

This is a good point, but note that monster manual diving is still possible in 5E anyway due to things like Command Undead, Mass Suggestion, Magic Jar, True Polymorph, and especially Planar Binding. Boggles may only be CR 1/8 but if you summon a bunch of them via Conjure Woodland Creatures they are extremely abusable.

[Tanarii]

Polymorph (and the associated spells) were among the biggest sources of brokenness in 3e,
It is of the bigger sources of broken-ness in 5e as well.

[PhoenixPhyre]

It is of the bigger sources of broken-ness in 5e as well.

I have yet to see that in play, but I realize I play in the anti-bizarro world. I've only seen polymorph used offensively; I've only seen the Conjure line of spells used to summon a single big bruiser. I've yet to see a true murder-hobo or a "my guy", and no edge-lords either. I've lived a charmed gaming life, obviously.

[Tanarii]

By offensively do you mean cast on an enemy? :)

[DrLoveMonkey]

I have yet to see that in play, but I realize I play in the anti-bizarro world. I've only seen polymorph used offensively; I've only seen the Conjure line of spells used to summon a single big bruiser. I've yet to see a true murder-hobo or a "my guy", and no edge-lords either. I've lived a charmed gaming life, obviously.

Having dealt with both Polymorph and it’s level 9 cousin from both sides of the DM screen, I can say that you’ve been both very lucky and seriously missed out.

Polymorph and TP can be some of the most imaginative and fun spells in the game to use, but they also completely solve a lot of challenges, and can make a lot of other classes almost obsolete in some of their areas of expertise.

[PhoenixPhyre]

By offensively do you mean cast on an enemy? :)

Yes. Totally nerfed a couple encounters, but that's what it's supposed to do. Plus the fact that my dice hate rolling saving throws...


Having dealt with both Polymorph and it’s level 9 cousin from both sides of the DM screen, I can say that you’ve been both very lucky and seriously missed out.

Polymorph and TP can be some of the most imaginative and fun spells in the game to use, but they also completely solve a lot of challenges, and can make a lot of other classes almost obsolete in some of their areas of expertise.

I had one person use shapechange, but that made up for the fact that his druid had been useless (mainly due to consistently bad rolls over the entire time I've known him) for most of the campaign.

I've only had one party hit T4, and that was in a bit of a gonzo, non-canon campaign segment. Had a monk, a druid (land), a GOO lock, and an AT rogue. The rogue did most of the damage, the monk was fine...when she remembered she had ki points and stunning strike, the lock was the most tactical and liked to telekinesis things off high places[1], and the druid...rolled poorly. And occasionally forgot that fire giants aren't going to care about firestorm, and that obviously crazy dragons with tentacles growing out of their backs probably don't want to talk to you and don't need to be rescued.

Overall, it was a fun group that I'm still playing with (as a player now). No one tries to break the game or overshadow others, everyone works to assist everyone. Even the teenagers I normally play with (high-school club of which I'm the sponsor) have been good and story/character focused. They care about the mark their characters leave on the world, not big numbers or crazy rule exploits. Heck, half of them have never read the PHB more than just their class (and most of their spells).

[Tanarii]

Yes. Totally nerfed a couple encounters, but that's what it's supposed to do. Plus the fact that my dice hate rolling saving throws...
It's far less powerful if the monsters just beat down the polymophed enemy in a single attack. I've had DMs that do that in my post-release AL experience, although I assume from what I've read you're generallynot that type of DM. Then it just eats up a single attack for a level 4 slot.

------
In general as a balancing point for the spell, like any concentration spell it can be disrupted by damage. Of course how likely that is depends on how the DM plays the enemy, how the players play the PCs, and how much they invest in Con saves. IMC (a no-feat campaign), and specifically against enemies that know how to deal with spell casters, it can be a real issue with concentration spells.

[PhoenixPhyre]

It's far less powerful if the monsters just beat down the polymophed enemy in a single attack. I've had DMs that do that in my post-release AL experience, although I assume from what I've read you're generallynot that type of DM. Then it just eats up a single attack for a level 4 slot.

------
In general as a balancing point for the spell, like any concentration spell it can be disrupted by damage. Of course how likely that is depends on how the DM plays the enemy, how the players play the PCs, and how much they invest in Con saves. IMC (a no-feat campaign), and specifically against enemies that know how to deal with spell casters, it can be a real issue with concentration spells.

One of the two cases was with 2 big dumb bruisers, who were separated by enough space that they couldn't get to each other. Not that they'd know what happened.

The other, the party polymorphed the bigger dude and the next person picked up the resulting turtle and tossed it well out of range of the enemies.

[MaxWilson]

It's far less powerful if the monsters just beat down the polymophed enemy in a single attack. I've had DMs that do that in my post-release AL experience, although I assume from what I've read you're generallynot that type of DM. Then it just eats up a single attack for a level 4 slot.

Isn't this where the "Polymorph the enemy into a landlocked whale" meme came from? Because of DMs like this?

I honestly can't fathom the monster mentality that would lead from "my buddy just got turned into a bunny rabbit" to "kill the rabbit!" so I look askance at the roleplaying behind these tactics, but maybe if you're fighting intelligent high-magic foes in a high-magic world it could make sense once in a while.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Isn't this where the "Polymorph the enemy into a landlocked whale" meme came from? Because of DMs like this?

I honestly can't fathom the monster mentality that would lead from "my buddy just got turned into a bunny rabbit" to "kill the rabbit!" so I look askance at the roleplaying behind these tactics, but maybe if you're fighting intelligent high-magic foes in a high-magic world it could make sense once in a while.

Yeah. You'd have to have people who
a) know what spell was cast
b) know that killing the new form will change them back
c) are willing to damage their ally (carryover damage)
d) willing to "waste" time doing so instead of attacking the obvious enemies.

IMX, that describes very very few situations.

[Tanarii]

Isn't this where the "Polymorph the enemy into a landlocked whale" meme came from? Because of DMs like this?Yup.


I honestly can't fathom the monster mentality that would lead from "my buddy just got turned into a bunny rabbit" to "kill the rabbit!" so I look askance at the roleplaying behind these tactics, but maybe if you're fighting intelligent high-magic foes in a high-magic world it could make sense once in a while.Totally agree. Personally as a DM I generally play intelligent enemies as if they have 'common knowledge' of how to deal with enemy casters, but that's what I feel would be fairly basic stuff. Among which I count "hitting casters is sometimes a way to screw up their spells", in my particular setting. And which I try not to count specific knowledge of counter tactics for various spells outside ones they can cast.

Conversely, I'm fine if players use their knowledge of specific spells to counter them.

[diplomancer]

Yup.

Totally agree. Personally as a DM I generally play intelligent enemies as if they have 'common knowledge' of how to deal with enemy casters, but that's what I feel would be fairly basic stuff. Among which I count "hitting casters is sometimes a way to screw up their spells", in my particular setting. And which I try not to count specific knowledge of counter tactics for various spells outside ones they can cast.

Conversely, I'm fine if players use their knowledge of specific spells to counter them.

Yes, I would say that it is fine, say, for Drow to do that, or a Cloud Giant. But if, say, a Hill Giant did it, I would think the DM is meta-gaming.

[Rukelnikov]

Yes, I would say that it is fine, say, for Drow to do that, or a Cloud Giant. But if, say, a Hill Giant did it, I would think the DM is meta-gaming.

Yeah, I'd run it somewhat similar.

[Tanarii]

Yes, I would say that it is fine, say, for Drow to do that, or a Cloud Giant. But if, say, a Hill Giant did it, I would think the DM is meta-gaming.
The DM is "metagaming" no matter how they play the enemies.

[diplomancer]

The DM is "metagaming" no matter how they play the enemies.

I said "meta-gaming" as a polite way of saying "straight-up cheating" ;)

[MaxWilson]

I said "meta-gaming" as a polite way of saying "straight-up cheating" ;)

How diplomantic. :-)

[Finback]

Is there a difference between a CR 7 Beast and a CR 7 monster?



Absolutely. It's possible the monster has magical resistances, spellcasting ability, or a range of other powers. A beast does not.

[diplomancer]

Absolutely. It's possible the monster has magical resistances, spellcasting ability, or a range of other powers. A beast does not.

I think there are beasts with magic resistance, like the Crag Cats of Storm King's Thunder, but their CR is low enough that they are far from an optimal choice, unless you are polymorphing a hireling.

[Damon_Tor]

Yes, I would say that it is fine, say, for Drow to do that, or a Cloud Giant. But if, say, a Hill Giant did it, I would think the DM is meta-gaming.

The hill giant might pick up the whale and throw it at the spellcaster which would allow the whale to use it's attacks.

[MaxWilson]

The hill giant might pick up the whale and throw it at the spellcaster which would allow the whale to use it's attacks.

A killer whale (8,000+ lb.) far exceeds the hill giant's carrying capacity (15 * 4 * 21 = 1260 lb. lifting capacity). It can't even drag the whale (30 * 4 * 21 = 2520 lb. capacity) let alone throw it.

[Damon_Tor]

A killer whale (8,000+ lb.) far exceeds the hill giant's carrying capacity (15 * 4 * 21 = 1260 lb. lifting capacity). It can't even drag the whale (30 * 4 * 21 = 2520 lb. capacity) let alone throw it.

Then it picks up the caster and throws him at the whale.

[OvisCaedo]

A killer whale (8,000+ lb.) far exceeds the hill giant's carrying capacity (15 * 4 * 21 = 1260 lb. lifting capacity). It can't even drag the whale (30 * 4 * 21 = 2520 lb. capacity) let alone throw it.

Well, to be fair, carrying capacity and size scaling as given to us clearly doesn't function for monsters/giants at all. A hill giant would, by all likelihood, be far too heavy for a hill giant to drag around for example. Fire giants might barely be able to carry their own plate armor.

...That being said, yes, throwing whales is certainly right out of the picture, even if you throw all of the unusable numbers for what a giant can pick up out.

[MaxWilson]

Then it picks up the caster and throws him at the whale.

If the caster was dumb enough to be standing next to the hill giant while he Polymorphed another hill giant instead of the one he was standing next to, he deserves what he gets.


Well, to be fair, carrying capacity and size scaling as given to us clearly doesn't function for monsters/giants at all. A hill giant would, by all likelihood, be far too heavy for a hill giant to drag around for example. Fire giants might barely be able to carry their own plate armor.

...That being said, yes, throwing whales is certainly right out of the picture, even if you throw all of the unusable numbers for what a giant can pick up out.

Yeah, 5E encumbrance rules badly need a rewrite, especially for the Str 20-30 range. Either carrying capacity shouldn't be linear, or Str needs to be uncapped. Strength 30 should not have only 50% higher carrying capacity than the human maximum (20), unless Str 100 or Str 1000 is a possibility.