[DDS][Spheres of Power/Might] Expanded Options 2: Champions Playtest

[stack]

Champions of the SPhere lacked archetypes for the new classes it introduced. I am here to announce the playtest for an archetype-focused book, with multiple archetypes for the prodigy, sage, and troubadour, each written by the original authors of the classes, as well as a number of other classes. Many of these focus on blending Spheres of Power and Spheres of Might. Also included are favored class bonuses, feats, and a few other bit. Let us know what you think!

Expanded Options 2: Champions Playtest (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Z7XoX_hRnHNOVgBGyUoaqK5NW8kmqImfbqDwFYdky28/edit#heading=h.jh8gu8h6jknl)

Normal statements about civility and such apply.

[Galacktic]

Alright, so just blitzed through it: Probably my favorite archetype in this entire thing is the Clone Troubadour? It does a much better job of explaining -why- a Troubadour can't simply use their abilities in other personas, which always broke verisimilitude for my group: If you and your allies were in life threatening danger, why wouldn't you - even in your disguise of Jeeves the Butler - go all out in trying to save yourself and your allies? The clone explains that nicely - they physically can't unless they're in the right form for it.

Everything else looks just lovely, and I -adore- the Hive. But I'm a huge sucker for playing monstrous seeming characters, so!

[Thealtruistorc]

Looking through now, will likely have commentary.

Champions was one of my favorite books, and it's good to know it's getting support.

[StSword]

I'll look over it again to see if anything pops to my attention, but perhaps an arsenal trick to give an Inventioneer the Technical Compatibility feat from the Inventor's Handbook?

I figure someone who likes gadgets enough to play an Inventioneer might like gadgets enough to buy the Inventor's Handbook, and since Inventioneers don't technically have the independent invention class feature I don't think they would otherwise qualify for the feat.

An archetype that can buy martial talents and summon gadgets ought to be able to buy martial talents to improve the gadgets they summon when such martial talents are available.

I know the preference is to not reference non core books, but I think it would be worth the exception here.

[ChrisAsmadi]

The main flaw in this seems to be that it uses Blended Training, rather than two separate talent progressions, which I find means you feel kinda strapped for talents, especially if you want to go into a particularly talent intensive sphere (or two, even). This is why Growling Marauder and Greenrunner are two of the better existing champion archetypes.

This is especially apparent with the Beast Bender and Champion Inquisitor, both of which are outright worse than existing options to make Champions.

This'd probably be true for Champion Warpriest as well, except Bastion of the Gods is, itself, kinda lackluster (especially when compared to Soldier of the Gods).

That said, the Clone archetype is great and I really want to play it.

[Castilonium]

The main flaw in this seems to be that it uses Blended Training, rather than two separate talent progressions, which I find means you feel kinda strapped for talents, especially if you want to go into a particularly talent intensive sphere (or two, even). This is why Growling Marauder and Greenrunner are two of the better existing champion archetypes.

This is especially apparent with the Beast Bender and Champion Inquisitor, both of which are outright worse than existing options to make Champions.

I suspect that the Champion archetypes in this playtest are a realization from the developers that it was a mistake to give Growling Marauder, Greenrunner, and Soldier of the Gods + Sphere Inquisitor 30 talents. Out of every class and archetype in existence, only 4 total gain more than 20 talents via practitioner/caster progression, not counting talents that can be gained via class features. The only one you didn't mention was Martial Hedgewitch, which gets 15 magic and 10 combat talents.

The flaw isn't that these new archetypes use Blended Training, the flaw was that the old ones have so many talents. The 15/15 classes are outliers, not something that the rest of Spheres should be designed around. 20 Blended talents is better design, IMO.

As for the playtest, I'm concerned about the Stancemaster Armiger. It lost Enhanced Customization, so it has no class features at all that add to attack or damage. Giving it Inspired Sequence would help.

[ChrisAsmadi]

I suspect that the Champion archetypes in this playtest are a realization from the developers that it was a mistake to give Growling Marauder, Greenrunner, and Soldier of the Gods + Sphere Inquisitor 30 talents. Out of every class and archetype in existence, only 4 total gain more than 20 talents via practitioner/caster progression, not counting talents that can be gained via class features. The only one you didn't mention was Martial Hedgewitch, which gets 15 magic and 10 combat talents.

The flaw isn't that these new archetypes use Blended Training, the flaw was that the old ones have so many talents. The 15/15 classes are outliers, not something that the rest of Spheres should be designed around. 20 Blended talents is better design, IMO.

As for the playtest, I'm concerned about the Stancemaster Armiger. It lost Enhanced Customization, so it has no class features at all that add to attack or damage. Giving it Inspired Sequence would help.

There's more than just those four champions with more than 20 talents just from progression, though, for a start:
-Bloodrager (Stormlord + Sphere Bloodrager): 24 (9 Magic + 15 Martial)
-Warpriest (Bastion of Conviction + Devoted Disciple/Divine Heretic/Sphere Warpriest): 25 (15 Magic + 10 Martial)

That's not even including straight casters with more than +1 talent per level, mind you (Incanters, Wizards, ect.).

Beyond those, the other actually decent Champion options usually have something to push them beyond 20 talents (if they even use Blended), be it a massive versatile pool of talents (Antiquarian Armigers, who get 30 Blended + 10 Martial), being a High Caster with 3/4 or even full BAB (Child of Hope Druid, Troubadours) or getting actual good class features and/or a bunch of bonus talents (Prodigies, Sages, Mirrored Soul Summoner).

So no, the issue isn't those archetypes - because as a rule they're roughly level with the other worthwhile Champion options. It's only when you compare them with junk like Martial Armourist, Martial Spellknight Mageknight or Mystic Magus that they look like an issue.

[StSword]

As for the playtest, I'm concerned about the Stancemaster Armiger. It lost Enhanced Customization, so it has no class features at all that add to attack or damage. Giving it Inspired Sequence would help.

Speaking of the Stancemaster, I had a thought.

This is a Champions book, using both magic and might is kind of on brand, yet the stancemaster doesn't have any such option.

It occurred to me that since as an Armiger a Stancemaster can get the spelldabbler prowess (or maybe have another archetype that can have SoP talents, I'm too lazy to see if any of the current ones are compatible with Stancemaster), I'm thinking a Stancemaster could say have Imbued Sequence as a prowess they could buy?

[stack]

JefftheGreen, author of the Fate and Weather handbooks (among other things) has contributed alchemist and vigilante archetypes and class abilities.

[Kitsuneymg]

At 2nd level, the gutter rat may select rogue talents but not combat talents with her adaptation ability and all abilities that modify adaptation. She may not select the Combat Feat rogue talent. She treats her class level as her rogue level for using and qualifying for these talents, stacking with any rogue levels she possesses.

You’ve got a lot of work to do here. Rogue Talent: Ninja Talent: Combat feat. In addition, Rogue Talent: Hedgewitch Talent: Combat Talent is another chain.

If you don’t want them getting combat feats, say that. “This Talent can not be used to select a combat feat or martial sphere talent.” Or something to that effect.

Does this class ever get the ability to take the improved rogue talents? They are technically a different list.

[stack]

You’ve got a lot of work to do here. Rogue Talent: Ninja Talent: Combat feat. In addition, Rogue Talent: Hedgewitch Talent: Combat Talent is another chain.

If you don’t want them getting combat feats, say that. “This Talent can not be used to select a combat feat or martial sphere talent.” Or something to that effect.

Does this class ever get the ability to take the improved rogue talents? They are technically a different list.

Good point.

There is no way to get advanced rogue talents, no.