Heat Metal to work iron without a forge?

[Damon_Tor]

The spell "Heat Metal" explicitly makes the metal red hot, the state required to work with iron via traditional smithing techniques.

So would you allow the spell to allow for blacksmithing in a situation where a forge wasn't available? Or where there's no coal or charcoal to heat the metal?

[Man_Over_Game]

It's expensive enough, as a level 2 spell with Concentration and a limited range and duration, so...sure, why not?

[Tiadoppler]

I'd allow it, but it'd be very slow. You're using a 2nd level spell slot for 1 minute of heat. You can get some work done in that time, but not much, especially on good steel. In addition, you'd still be expected to have smithing tools (hammer, tongs, gloves, etc.), an anvil, materials for proper quenching, possibly a grinding wheel, etc, if you want to forge a quality weapon.

It's imaginative, so I'd want to reward that, but the idea of having heat available for only a few minutes a day would slow any real work down to a crawl.

Edit: In a survival situation with limited supplies, it might be worthwhile, but I wouldn't make it a super-amazing, better-than-a-real-forge option.

[Unoriginal]

The spell "Heat Metal" explicitly makes the metal red hot, the state required to work with iron via traditional smithing techniques.

So would you allow the spell to allow for blacksmithing in a situation where a forge wasn't available? Or where there's no coal or charcoal to heat the metal?

Heat Metal has a duration of 1 minute, so no, I wouldn't.

I mean you could use it to make an iron part more easily bendable, but it takes more than 1 minute to smith something.

[Damon_Tor]

Heat Metal has a duration of 1 minute, so no, I wouldn't.

I mean you could use it to make an iron part more easily bendable, but it takes more than 1 minute to smith something.

Heating metal in a forge only gives you 1 minute or so of workable heat before you need to put it back in. A skilled blacksmith could absolutely turn an iron bar into a spear head during that time. You won't get a longsword or armor out of it, but you should be able to make some basic weapons.

[JNAProductions]

I'd allow it. I really don't see any reason to NOT allow it.

[Tiadoppler]

Heating metal in a forge only gives you 1 minute or so of workable heat before you need to put it back in. A skilled blacksmith could absolutely turn an iron bar into a spear head during that time. You won't get a longsword or armor out of it, but you should be able to make some basic weapons.

That depends on a lot of factors (I mean a TON). If you already have a small, smooth bar of high quality steel, the size of the spearhead you want, then yes... maybe. It depends how much material you have to move (metal is hard) and what tools you have available.

If you've got a bar you need to cut? A bar that's the wrong shape and far too thick for a blade? Then no. Not even close.

Even then you just have a spear head's blade. Are you making a socket for the blade, or just tying the blade to a shaft?



On the other hand, homebrew it however you want. D&D's a game, and if you're a master blacksmith cleric of the forge casting heat metal on meteoric iron, wth do I care whether the timing's accurate. Rule of fun > accuracy (for most games, anyway)

[Mellack]

It should work, but it would take about 100x as long. You can only work the metal for a few minutes a day, depending on your level. And as others stated, you still need smiting tools.

[Sigreid]

It would be fun to enchant a forge to use heat metal instead of coal.

[Garfunion]

The movie Dragonslayer is a great example of the use of heat metal spell to forge metal. I would definitely allow it to be used to work metal.

[Vogie]

I'd let them do it within reason. Probably not generating heavy weapons or silvering weapons, but creating multiple arrowheads, spear heads, daggers, shortswords or making repairs to metal weapons? Sure!

[Danielqueue1]

It would be fun to enchant a forge to use heat metal instead of coal.

like an induction forge!

I'd say Heat metal would work for short repairs, a couple of arrow heads out of metal scraps, a dagger out of a metal shard, anything else would take multiple castings.

I love the idea of a forge cleric climbing up on some scaffolding and using heat metal and smithing tools to pop out dents and such on the Iron doors to a temple of Moradin after an attack without taking them down.

[No brains]

This is a clever idea! I approve!

A slight modification: use the bonfire cantrip to keep up the heat. I wonder what level one would need to be for the Bonfire cantrip to do enough damage to make iron red hot?

[Potato_Priest]

This is a clever idea! I approve!

A slight modification: use the bonfire cantrip to keep up the heat. I wonder what level one would need to be for the Bonfire cantrip to do enough damage to make iron red hot?

How much damage does lava do again? That might be a good baseline for comparison (though obviously metal is easier to melt than rock, so would require less damage).

[No brains]

How much damage does lava do again? That might be a good baseline for comparison (though obviously metal is easier to melt than rock, so would require less damage).

You only need to melt metal if you want to smelt/solder/weld it. There's still room between a workable temperature and melting point.

I would be wary of using damage to discern the heat needed to work metal because it is possible to 'destroy' a metal object without fully melting it. It's possible that good rolls on a 1d6 bonfire could screw up the temper and cause oxidation over time.

[Sigreid]

Another idea. How about an anvil that is enchanted with heat metal to keep the metal laid on it at a workable temperature? Perhaps with a command word to turn it on and off. Could be the best item ever for a travelling smith.

[qube]

How much damage does lava do again? That might be a good baseline for comparison (though obviously metal is easier to melt than rock, so would require less damage).

When a piece of metal is hot forged it must be heated significantly. The average temperatures necessary for hot forging are: Up to 1150 degrees Celsius for Steel
~~ Google fu

The temperature of lava when it is first ejected from a volcanic vent can vary between 700 and 1,200 degrees C
~~ Google fu

Lava. A creature takes 6d10 fire damage when it enters lava for the first time on a turn or when it ends its turn there.
~~ Princes of Apocalypse

... but here's the kicker: cold forging.

Despite the word "cold," cold forging actually occurs at or near room temperature. The most common metals in cold forging applications are usually standard or carbon alloy steels. One of the most common types of cold forging is a process called impression-die forging, where the metal is placed into a die that is attached to an anvil. The metal is then hit by a descending hammer and forced into the die. Depending on the product, the hammer may actually be dropped on the metal numerous times in a very rapid sequence.
~~ google fu

--------

*thinks for a moment*

blacksmithing (str) check, with a bonus of half the fire damage, DC 25.

A typical blacksmith * on a normal forge** would get an 89% chance (https://anydice.com/program/15d95) of succeeding

*: STR 16, expert in his trade
** which equals lava temperatures, a.k.a. 6d10, or 3d10 if halved

While "in the wild", a adventurer (STR20) with a bonfire (1d6), proficiency in blacksmithing and guidance, has a 35% chance to succeed.

[moonfly7]

Too everyone who said it takes more than one minute to smith something, your kinda wrong. I bladesmith, and let me tell you, what takes time is reheating. If a spell keeps your metal at a constant red heat, you could get tons of work done fast. You can move lots of steel if you know what your doing, and blacksmiths learn to work fast because steel normally cools.

A spear head? Professional Smith could do it in a minute and the time it takes to cool down. Something like a sword or knife would take longer sure, but just keep casting. But yes, this is what I wanted to use the spell for the moment I saw it. It would definitely work. Maybe a couple castings of it though. But a constant red heat is a god send.

[SLOTHRPG95]

It's kind of niche, but you aren't necessarily limited to minutes/day. If you were to play a Theurgy Wizard w/ Forge as your associated domain, you could get Heat Metal as a Wizard spell, and since it's 2nd level it's a valid pick for Spell Mastery. Sure, it requires 18 levels of wizard and a really specific build, but it is indeed possible to spam the spell at will.

[JackPhoenix]

The spell "Heat Metal" explicitly makes the metal red hot, the state required to work with iron via traditional smithing techniques.

So would you allow the spell to allow for blacksmithing in a situation where a forge wasn't available? Or where there's no coal or charcoal to heat the metal?

The spell also makes the "red hot" metal perfectly safe to touch outside the exact moment the caster uses bonus action to have it deal damage. And the heat only affects creatures and doesn't ignite flammable objects in contact with it. There's no mention of damage to the object itself, which there should be it changed temperature so quickly (both when the spell is cast and when it ends). In other words, it doesn't behave like red hot metal in any way except the glow.

No, I wouldn't allow it. The object glows thanks to the magic, not because it is actually heated to "red hot glow"-level temperatures.

[MaxWilson]

Heating metal in a forge only gives you 1 minute or so of workable heat before you need to put it back in. A skilled blacksmith could absolutely turn an iron bar into a spear head during that time. You won't get a longsword or armor out of it, but you should be able to make some basic weapons.

This argument is good enough that I'd consider it, maybe do a tiny bit of Googling on forging, and probably allow it for spears and other simple items.

The Googling is just to check that I'm not overlooking anything.

[Sigreid]

What crafters could really use is a quench cantrip.

[moonfly7]

What crafters could really use is a quench cantrip.

Barrel of water, or a couple flasks of oil, done. Oils better.

[Coffee_Dragon]

No, I wouldn't allow it. The object glows thanks to the magic, not because it is actually heated to "red hot glow"-level temperatures.

In principle I agree with this. Fluff-crunch zigzag logic of the "this spell seems to achieve its mechanical effect through this flavour process, so it should provide all the utility you can argue should follow from that process" type opens a million wormcans and magic doesn't need to be more powerful.

[Kyutaru]

In principle I agree with this. Fluff-crunch zigzag logic of the "this spell seems to achieve its mechanical effect through this flavour process, so it should provide all the utility you can argue should follow from that process" type opens a million wormcans and magic doesn't need to be more powerful.

True Polymorph - Nitroglycerin

When you explode, you unpolymorph with all your health intact.

[Witty Username]

What crafters could really use is a quench cantrip.

Since heat metal ends instantly would that automatically quench what you are working with?


In principle I agree with this. Fluff-crunch zigzag logic of the "this spell seems to achieve its mechanical effect through this flavour process, so it should provide all the utility you can argue should follow from that process" type opens a million wormcans and magic doesn't need to be more powerful.
Well, Find traps doesn't find traps so I guess it makes sense that Heat Metal doesn't heat metal.

[Sigreid]

Since heat metal ends instantly would that automatically quench what you are working with?


Since nearly everything I know about forging I learned from watching Forged in Fire, I have no idea.

[Blood of Gaea]

Personally, I think it would just be too finicky, so I wouldn't allow it. There's also a lot of questions to it, is Heat Metal hot enough? Does the cooling instantly quench the metal? If these are true, why does Heat Metal not ruin the temperament of everything you use it on?

That said, spellcasters can definitely start a fire, and your smithing PC almost certainly will have knowledge of how to craft a sufficiently hot fire.

Spellcasters still have plenty they could do to help regardless.

[Sigreid]

Personally, I think it would just be too finicky, so I wouldn't allow it. There's also a lot of questions to it, is Heat Metal hot enough? Does the cooling instantly quench the metal? If these are true, why does Heat Metal not ruin the temperament of everything you use it on?

That said, spellcasters can definitely start a fire, and your smithing PC almost certainly will have knowledge of how to craft a sufficiently hot fire.

Spellcasters still have plenty they could do to help regardless.

Eh, given the existence of Fabricate, I don't really see a problem with allowing the use of heat metal and perhaps other spells to aid with crafting. Especially since Heat Metal would mostly only cut down on fuel consumption. I mean, you'd still have to do the work part of forging by swinging a hammer.

Perhaps some enterprising caster could conduct some research based on heat metal specifically to replace the forge when forging.

[Blood of Gaea]

Eh, given the existence of Fabricate, I don't really see a problem with allowing the use of heat metal and perhaps other spells to aid with crafting. Especially since Heat Metal would mostly only cut down on fuel consumption. I mean, you'd still have to do the work part of forging by swinging a hammer.

Perhaps some enterprising caster could conduct some research based on heat metal specifically to replace the forge when forging.
Yes, they have plenty of spells that could help, I just don't consider Heat Metal to be one of them.

And yes, I would absolutely allow some kind of pursuit after a more specialized spell.

[moonfly7]

To answer a question, no, quenching is the rapid cooling of metal to cold heat, when the spell ends, the metal returns to the tempature it was before the spell. That would most likely be room temp. This means that the metal would be normalised, loose all temper, and be considered "soft" steel. This wouldn't apply to mild steel, as it cannot be tempered.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Well, Find traps doesn't find traps so I guess it makes sense that Heat Metal doesn't heat metal.

I would say Heat Metal does heat metal, but it does so in a specific magical, miraculous way that by default doesn't map to states and processes of thermodynamics or materials physics that can be extrapolated and exploited.

It should be fairly simple to house rule Find Traps to its 2E incarnation, which seems to have been the last time the spell found traps for you. Not sure why the 5E version looks like it does, maybe they went overboard with niche protection in this one instance.

[Kane0]

Sure, why not.

[Derpldorf]

If this theoretical magical blacksmith was able to get themselves some sorcerer levels they could use the Extend Spell Metamagic to extend the duration of one spell as long as needed to do whatever work they need done.

[Kyutaru]

If this theoretical magical blacksmith was able to get themselves some sorcerer levels they could use the Extend Spell Metamagic to extend the duration of one spell as long as needed to do whatever work they need done.

Presuming the secondary effects of metal actually heating to the point of being able to warp from hammer blows actually occurs. But as any sane DM knows by now, granting players the ability to hypothesize or extrapolate secondary effects from a spell is the road to ruin. They do precisely what they mean to and nothing more. No, Cone of Cold will not freeze the lake solid. Once you let them go that far, they will bring down all of physics and chemistry unto your head in an effort to gain more from spells than what is reasonable for the effect level. Players have theorized ways to produce an infinite supply of diamonds using highly pressurized coal machines and Pun Pun only existed as the result of a liberal reading of the rules.

Say No to Spell Abuse. Have them research a similar spell if they want a different effect.

[Kane0]

Presuming the secondary effects of metal actually heating to the point of being able to warp from hammer blows actually occurs. But as any sane DM knows by now, granting players the ability to hypothesize or extrapolate secondary effects from a spell is the road to ruin. They do precisely what they mean to and nothing more. No, Cone of Cold will not freeze the lake solid. Once you let them go that far, they will bring down all of physics and chemistry unto your head in an effort to gain more from spells than what is reasonable for the effect level. Players have theorized ways to produce an infinite supply of diamonds using highly pressurized coal machines and Pun Pun only existed as the result of a liberal reading of the rules.

Say No to Spell Abuse. Have them research a similar spell if they want a different effect.

Bender: Wait, I know. I make use of my rod of fireball!
Cubert: *Scoffs* Everyone knows red dragons are immune to fireballs as well as all other forms of incendiary attack.
Bender: Yes, but I aim not at the dragon but at the river itself to create a shroud of steam through which we can escape!
ALL: Whoa

I do not agree with your statement. Every table is different, and I consider myself a sane DM.

[DarkKnightJin]

Another idea. How about an anvil that is enchanted with heat metal to keep the metal laid on it at a workable temperature? Perhaps with a command word to turn it on and off. Could be the best item ever for a travelling smith.

Maybe not a traveling smith in my case, but I'm stealing this for the Artificer/Magic Item Crafter in my setting. Not just for convenience on his part, but as a subtle show of skill.
"Yeah, I made a forge that keeps the metal I work with at a workable heat so I don't need to sit around twiddling my thumbs while it heats back up."
Just to flex on the 'normal' smiths.

[Unoriginal]

A magic forge wouldn't have to be enchanted with Heat Metal, though.

It'd be more useful to have an enchantment that let you control the heat of the metal from cold to white hot (or even melting temperature).

Magic items don't need to replicate spells, and in many case are more useful that way.