Arcane Trickster vs Swashbuckler

[Anthiondel]

Hey, guys! Planning on a character to play on a sea-based campaign (cough, Saltmarsh, cough). I wanna play a rogue (haven't played any in 5e) and both subclasses seem quite fun. The trickster because, well, a rogue with magic is one of the coolest things ever; and a swashbuckler seems a terriffic combatant and a good face.

What do you all think?

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Hey, guys! Planning on a character to play on a sea-based campaign (cough, Saltmarsh, cough). I wanna play a rogue (haven't played any in 5e) and both subclasses seem quite fun. The trickster because, well, a rogue with magic is one of the coolest things ever; and a swashbuckler seems a terriffic combatant and a good face.

What do you all think?

I generally think it depends on the style of game you're going to try to play. Arcane tricksters shine when they have lots of room to improvise in noncombat situations. Swashbucklers are more effective in combat. If your DM is going to run a game that happens mostly aboard ship, there are going to be fewer opportunities to use the stuff that makes the trickster pop. Personally, I'd probably prefer the former, and a less combat-focused game, but there's a lot of room in Saltmarsh for a swashbuckler to buckle some swashes.

[Man_Over_Game]

I generally think it depends on the style of game you're going to try to play. Arcane tricksters shine when they have lots of room to improvise in noncombat situations. Swashbucklers are more effective in combat. If your DM is going to run a game that happens mostly aboard ship, there are going to be fewer opportunities to use the stuff that makes the trickster pop. Personally, I'd probably prefer the former, and a less combat-focused game, but there's a lot of room in Saltmarsh for a swashbuckler to buckle some swashes.

Well said. I agree with all of this.

The Swashbuckler does have some obvious benefits for social environments, where the Arcane Trickster is more of a trap/theft specialist. If your DM has some cool boat events planned, where interacting with stuff at range might be relevant, the Arcane Trickster has some neat-o things it might do. It's a fairly average combatant, though, until you get some of its higher level features.

[Witty Username]

I don't think I can be objective on this topic given that I am still mad that spell attacks cannot be used for sneak attack.
I think it depends on what is drawing you to the rouge for this. Tricksters are better at the odd-ball stuff and may have better tools for avoiding problems and puzzle solving stuff, and Swashbucklers can to pretty well in fights, and still has the rouge tools for social interaction and not dying to traps.

[Keravath]

Arcane trickster can work very well as a ranged sneak attacker using a familiar (owl) to provide the help action in addition to the usual hide/stealth tactics to enable advantage and thus sneak attacks. They may also have the option to pick up the booming blade cantrip if you are looking at a more melee focused rogue along with another utility cantrip and the mage hand legerdemain feature which can work very well in a wide variety of circumstances.

In addition, cunning action disengage, or the mobile feat can be used to mimic some key swashbuckler abilities. I have a variant human arcane trickster rogue that started with the mobile feat which combines features a bit. Other than that, an arcane trickster with 14 charisma is about as good as a swashbuckler with 14 charisma from a social interaction perspective.

[Man_Over_Game]

Arcane trickster can work very well as a ranged sneak attacker using a familiar (owl) to provide the help action in addition to the usual hide/stealth tactics to enable advantage and thus sneak attacks. They may also have the option to pick up the booming blade cantrip if you are looking at a more melee focused rogue along with another utility cantrip and the mage hand legerdemain feature which can work very well in a wide variety of circumstances.

In addition, cunning action disengage, or the mobile feat can be used to mimic some key swashbuckler abilities. I have a variant human arcane trickster rogue that started with the mobile feat which combines features a bit. Other than that, an arcane trickster with 14 charisma is about as good as a swashbuckler with 14 charisma from a social interaction perspective.

The inverse could also be true; much of the utility of the Arcane Trickster, including the familiar, can be easily duplicated by getting the Ritual Caster feat.

That is true on the Charisma aspect, but an Arcane Trickster may not be able to afford having a 14 in a tertiary stat. For a Swashbuckler, he's already investing into Charisma for some of his features; there is no division of his resources.

[Keravath]

The inverse could also be true; much of the utility of the Arcane Trickster, including the familiar, can be easily duplicated by getting the Ritual Caster feat.

That is true on the Charisma aspect, but an Arcane Trickster may not be able to afford having a 14 in a tertiary stat. For a Swashbuckler, he's already investing into Charisma for some of his features; there is no division of his resources.

True. Though the only stat really required in either case is dex. I've found that most arcane tricksters don't have the ASI to push int up until much later so they often focus on other stats than int while taking a role playable level of int and focusing on spells that don't need it.

[Lunali]

I don't think I can be objective on this topic given that I am still mad that spell attacks cannot be used for sneak attack.
I think it depends on what is drawing you to the rouge for this. Tricksters are better at the odd-ball stuff and may have better tools for avoiding problems and puzzle solving stuff, and Swashbucklers can to pretty well in fights, and still has the rouge tools for social interaction and not dying to traps.

Spell attacks that involve a melee weapon attack can still be used for sneak attack, such as booming blade and green flame blade.

[Zuras]

The inverse could also be true; much of the utility of the Arcane Trickster, including the familiar, can be easily duplicated by getting the Ritual Caster feat.

That is true on the Charisma aspect, but an Arcane Trickster may not be able to afford having a 14 in a tertiary stat. For a Swashbuckler, he's already investing into Charisma for some of his features; there is no division of his resources.

MOG, I have to disagree on the Ritual Caster duplicating enough of the Arcane Trickster. Find Familiar is nice, but any Rogue can get so much more out of sneaky cantrips like Minor Illusion and Mage Hand that I would have to recommend Magic Initiate.

I personally have been slightly disappointed by the number of actual Arcane Tricks my AT has. Through 6th level, it’s just been Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Find Familiar and Disguise Self. It’s amazing how much more mileage a Rogue can get out of those spells than a Wizard, but it doesn’t compare to the trickeration a Bard of the same level can do. My disappointment is all with the branding, not the strength of the subclass, though—if subtlety fails you can always just stab them for massive amounts of damage.

[Zuras]

True. Though the only stat really required in either case is dex. I've found that most arcane tricksters don't have the ASI to push int up until much later so they often focus on other stats than int while taking a role playable level of int and focusing on spells that don't need it.

It depends on whether you want to build for melee or not.

If you use point buy and want to use Booming Blade, you will need to put more points into Con and will have to skimp on Int or Wis, even though you likely want a good perception and investigation to be trap disarming guy.

The AT I am currently playing is primarily ranged specifically because I wanted stat support for my non combat skills and ended up squishier than average as a result.

[Shuruke]

So far I've played a.t longer than any other character/sub class

Starting from 3 and have ran to 19 so far.

I can honestly say that I absolutely love it.

I felt like the slots were very much a limitation but once we got a ring of spell storing and the group let me have it. (Rest are full casters whom are very stingy with slots.)

My main spells of choice are Phantasmal force and melf acid arrow

(Also picked up web)

Really enjoyong the character and although I havemt used mage hand much the few times I have used it were a blast

(Sleight of handing Alchemist fire flasks with a clockwork stop onto soldier belts before a big fight)

Also ran around as a soldier for a bit with alter self

Have had tons of shinanigans with alter self


My recemendation os grab spells that have multiple effects
Such as alter self, silent image, things that can be uses for vass array of things

My last recemendation would be dont go into a.t expecting lots of casting.

Think of it as a rogue with a few tricks up your sleeve

[djreynolds]

Both of these rogues also work great with strength and finesse weapons.

I played a mountain dwarf arcane trickster, my spells augmented my stealth.

You can don't have to play the classic dexterous rogue with these archetypes, for the mountain dwarf I chose athletics, intimidation, and deception and insight... I used a lot of enchantment type spells. But in combat, he got in close.

Swashbucklers are insane in melee, rakish audacity and fancy footwork.

What I'm saying is with these two archetypes, you don't have to play the classic dagger in the shadows. You're not forced into taking expertise in stealth and perception.

[Nhorianscum]

I've tried AT, Swash, Inquisitive, and Thief so far...

AT is the only rouge I've played more than once (not counting the Jigsaw inspiried Redemption/Theif) and is far and above my go-to choice. Spells and cantrips are way too good on full rouge progression.

On the other hand may never play swash again. It was fun to play and I would still recommend the class as "good" but the charisma side of the class really isn't offering enough to be worth a sub pick imo.

[Karnitis]

I've only played AT, but out of the dozen or so characters I've played period, it is hands down my favorite subclass.

To clarify - I've found I lie way too much to play any class with less than 16 Charisma so Bard is my go-to nowadays. However, having played about 8 different classes, Arcane Trickster felt like it added more to the overall class than any other.

Rogues have a ton of meat in their core class with expertise and sneak attack, so no matter what you pick, you'll have a strong enough base to have a good character. To me, though, AT added a whole new dimension to my playstyle. Yes, I was a sneaky sneak, the same as you'd be with a Scout, Infiltrator, Mastermind, etc. But with AK, it totally changed how I wanted my character to go and I loved it (side note, I am also a heavy RPer).

I know I'm not articulating it well, but really Arcane Trickster is a lot of fun, Illusions + Stealth + Deception is a lot of fun. Swashbuckler has never been piratey enough to attract me.

[Potato_Priest]

I’ve never played a swashbuckler, and probably never will.

That’s because my second character ever in D&D was an arcane trickster, and I don’t know that I could play a different variety of rogue after that. The spells add so much utility it’s unbelievable, and I don’t even use familiars. Those who do will get ridiculous mileage from the class.

(There is a slight chance I could bring myself to play a thief using fast hands as a worse version of mage hand legerdemain, but it would be a struggle.)

[Man_Over_Game]

I’ve never played a swashbuckler, and probably never will.

That’s because my second character ever in D&D was an arcane trickster, and I don’t know that I could play a different variety of rogue after that. The spells add so much utility it’s unbelievable, and I don’t even use familiars. Those who do will get ridiculous mileage from the class.

(There is a slight chance I could bring myself to play a thief using fast hands as a worse version of mage hand legerdemain, but it would be a struggle.)

Yeah, I'm not really sure what the Thief is supposed to accomplish that the Arcane Trickster does worse.

I've started making Object Interactions provoke Opportunity Attacks, unless they use an Action or a weapon with the Light trait, and it's made Thieves look a lot more usable.

[strangebloke]

Yeah, I'm not really sure what the Thief is supposed to accomplish that the Arcane Trickster does worse.

I've started making Object Interactions provoke Opportunity Attacks, unless they use an Action or a weapon with the Light trait, and it's made Thieves look a lot more usable.

If you preclude familiars from using items then the thief is a better combat healer and can also use things like ball bearings.

Overall, yeah, I agree that they're not so great.

Tricksters are undoubtedly the most generally powerful rogue, but you can replicate a lot of the things that make them strong relatively cheaply. For example, a Variant Half Elf (high) who traded out skill versatility for booming blade and then grabbed ritual caster is basically as flexible as an arcane trickster without a very deep investment. The only thing that Tricksters get that's really unique is mage hand legermain, and while that is awesome it's not exactly the end-all and be-all of the world.

So yeah. I would personally build a variant half elf (high) with booming blade, but then take alert for my first feat and not ritual caster. As good as familiars are, someone in the party already has one, and I'd rather be able to be han solo and always shoot first. ALWAYS.

+15 on initiative checks is hilarious.

[djreynolds]

Not to derail the thread, but thief can do without magic.

We faced a beholder who pinned down the party, my wizard should just thrown his crossbow and our newest player got turned into ash, which later we did collect in a bottle

But the thief used the terrain to first hide and then climb the walls and finally to a spot where they could jump down and sneak attack.

It may not come up much, but a thief can do things ( this was before the mariner and tabaxi ) that save on magical resources,

I think second story work can be strong, its just their skill set, IMO, requires there to be cliffs and walls and ceilings to use. This isn't always present. Sometimes combat takes place in the bar you all meet up in.

Arcane trickster is an awesome archetype, I like it best because with it you don't need to invest in stealth or perception or athletics because your spells can accomplish this, or you can flip it around and use those spells for social encounters.

Or you can augment all those "thief" skills with magic

Arcane trickster really need to pump up attack stat and intelligence, while the thief lives in the "gray area" where they really cannot dump strength or dexterity.

Swashbuckler is very much for a player wanting to mix it up in melee