Am I wrong to feel cheated

[Sniddy]

So, we have 4 party members

We're not optimised, we're fairly casual - we're level 10, a druid, a home brewed...nearest thing would be a ranger I guess...a druid and a druid/barbarian

We got TPKed with a challenge 23 monster

I just don't see, realistically, how we could have won - and running was tried. Just feels like we were going to die, whatever we did, and it wasn't a one shot....so, am I right to be a little wounded or was it a justified TPK

[JeenLeen]

Was it a fight you could have avoided? Such as "big dragon is in that lair" and you decide to go in and confront it instead of avoiding it?

If no, then... yeah, seemed cheated. Perhaps the DM expected something none of you thought of? Or something really threw the DM for a surprise which led to the fight?
I'm trying to think of ways that mean it wasn't just the DM being unfair.

I'd recommend talking to the DM out-of-character and try to figure out why what happened happened. If you still want to keep playing, maybe ask for a retcon of the last game and start over pre-death (assuming the other players agree.)

[JNAProductions]

So, we have 4 party members

We're not optimised, we're fairly casual - we're level 10, a druid, a home brewed...nearest thing would be a ranger I guess...a druid and a druid/barbarian

We got TPKed with a challenge 23 monster

I just don't see, realistically, how we could have won - and running was tried. Just feels like we were going to die, whatever we did, and it wasn't a one shot....so, am I right to be a little wounded or was it a justified TPK

More details needed.

Did you anger Orcus intentionally, and are now moaning that he beat you?
Or did your DM sic the Tarrasque on you out of the blue?

From what you said, there's just plain not enough info to tell.

[Garfunion]

What was the monster(s)?

[Man_Over_Game]

So, we have 4 party members

We're not optimised, we're fairly casual - we're level 10, a druid, a home brewed...nearest thing would be a ranger I guess...a druid and a druid/barbarian

We got TPKed with a challenge 23 monster

I just don't see, realistically, how we could have won - and running was tried. Just feels like we were going to die, whatever we did, and it wasn't a one shot....so, am I right to be a little wounded or was it a justified TPK

I'll be honest, there's not a lot that we can really assess for you with that amount of information.

Four level 10 characters vs. one CR 23 creature. And that's all the information we have.

The answer seems obvious, but there may be things that were missed. Maybe someone forgot about the McGuffin that was supposed to drop his power level, or maybe it was a fight that the DM telegraphed and you could have avoided. Or maybe the CR rating isn't accurate for how the DM was planning on using the creature.

Just based off of the information you gave us, no, it wasn't fair. But there's a hint of bitterness, and that might cause a bit of bias, so there might be a reason your DM pitted you against that creature that only they might know.

I guess, my question to you is, how COULD that fight have been justified? Having information from both sides would help us assess the situation. But there's a chance that you would know more than a bunch of random people on the internet.

[Sniddy]

Eld Tempest - and random encounter camping

We could have run BEFORE the fight but we didn't know what was coming we tried running round 2 when we realised we were dead

So yeh 'siccing a tarsq' is the best analogy

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Since none of us were there, the best we can do is to suggest that you talk to your DM about it.

[Keravath]

We need far more information to render an opinion to be honest :)

There are a few options ...

1) In general, if confronted with a CR23 creature in a situation that was unavoidable and the party had no way to talk themselves out of it or flee, then I would say the DM was either pissed off or tired of the campaign and decided to bring it to an abrupt end.

2) If the situation came about because the players didn't listen when the DM said "This is a really powerful creature and you don't think you have any chance of defeating it in a fight" ... but the party chose to fight anyway ... then the party basically either didn't understand the message or decided they were tired of the campaign and wanted it to end.

3) Or the party just didn't believe the DM since the DM had previously rescued them from previously bad decision making.

Usually, neither the players nor the DM actually want a TPK so they only really happen when a party makes poor decisions to the extent that it is beyond the DMs ability to adapt the encounter without completely breaking the immersion .. or the party has incredibly bad luck.

Without a lot more detail, none of the rest of us can offer any useful comments :) ... in general, yes, I would be bothered if a DM plunked down a CR23 creature in front of our level 10 party with no reasonable way to either fight or escape ... but we can't say what happened in this case.

[DwarfDM]

In my opinion jou were cheated. I once threw the Demigorgon against a lvl3 party. But they were meant to run and they did.

Maybe talk with your DM and als what he envisioned what would happen.

Edit: Sorry about my signature

[Grod_The_Giant]

Eld Tempest - and random encounter camping

We could have run BEFORE the fight but we didn't know what was coming we tried running round 2 when we realised we were dead

So yeh 'siccing a tarsq' is the best analogy
Wait wait wait wait wait.

Your DM rolled a CR 23, borderline-godly avatar of destruction, one perpetually shrouded in a miles-wide thunderstorm, as a RANDOM ENCOUNTER?

What the crap.

[Sniddy]

Wait wait wait wait wait.

Your DM rolled a CR 23, borderline-godly avatar of destruction, one perpetually shrouded in a miles-wide thunderstorm, as a RANDOM ENCOUNTER?

What the crap.

This is why I kinda feel a little deflated

...and it seems isn't just me and sour grapes, which helps thanks

[Man_Over_Game]

This is why I kinda feel a little deflated

...and it seems isn't just me and sour grapes, which helps thanks

Really, DMs should just not use random encounters. Or at least make them "random" encounters, and not "I'm gonna flip to a random page in the Monster Manual" kind of encounters.

Maybe it's time your DM takes a break, or just tell him that you feel he made a mistake? A good DM takes criticism, just like a good party accepts a TPK (when it's deserved).

[Kurt Kurageous]

Wait wait wait wait wait.

Your DM rolled a CR 23, borderline-godly avatar of destruction, one perpetually shrouded in a miles-wide thunderstorm, as a RANDOM ENCOUNTER?

What the crap.

Yep. This is why you should be very careful about letting the dice tell the story.

DMs, pick from the table. Otherwise, who's running your game? Not you.

[Grod_The_Giant]

This is why I kinda feel a little deflated

...and it seems isn't just me and sour grapes, which helps thanks
You're not wrong-- that is some grade-A, "stop the game right there" bull****.

[Kurt Kurageous]

This is why I kinda feel a little deflated

...and it seems isn't just me and sour grapes, which helps thanks

Yep, be happy your DM is an idiot...I guess.

Good news, they can learn. And the party will tell them why what happened sucked.

At least they didn't wuss out and not own it with, "It was all a dream..."

[Resileaf]

You have definitely been cheated. I suggest you sacrifice your GM to the full moon.

Is he a novice? You're lvl 10, so it sounds like he's at least GMed long enough to get to that level, but it would be weird that an experienced GM simply rolled a CR23 encounter and didn't think to ignore that encounter.

[denthor]

You were lacking arcane power you had plenty of devine power. Did the spells get mismanaged?

I mean entangle is druid spell. That gives nasty negative 1/2 moment.

Did the druids have an escape spell tree walk something similar. Turn into Animal form fly earth elemental sink into the ground.

The ranger might be in deep trouble without a movement spell of some type.

Flee is an option. You tried it at what 30 feet a round times four? For two rounds. My mage would dimension door 800 feet random direction (you did not have that) but ask about other magical movement.

You have every right to feel cheated but in reality you should had some long range movement spell at that level. Fly potion at the very least.

[Man_Over_Game]

At least they didn't wuss out and not own it with, "It was all a dream..."

That could be a valid plot device. The new villain is using a modified version of Dream to torture the players into fighting enemies far beyond their capabilities while they sleep. "Death" means they start the next day with Exhaustion. Without magic, potions, defeating their Dream combatants, or some means of forcing rest, the players will die in roughly 6 days.

[Keravath]

Eld Tempest - and random encounter camping

We could have run BEFORE the fight but we didn't know what was coming we tried running round 2 when we realised we were dead

So yeh 'siccing a tarsq' is the best analogy

Elder Tempest is neutral alignment. Unless you are doing something bad or its in a bad mood, the odds are reasonable that it won't attack you without warning unless you are too close. It has an intelligence of 2. It isn't an intelligent creature, it is a wandering storm. It is surrounded by a storm 5-10 miles across and the elemental is at the center.

There would be tons of warning that you are approaching it. The party has THREE druids and a ranger. If any of them are a moon druid then they can actually transform into an air elemental if they want and can probably communicate, though the elder elemental isn't very bright and doesn't speak any languages so maybe not.

None of the party recognized what they were approaching?
When you did see the creature at the center of the storm, probably from several hundred feet away, none of the druids or ranger recognized the creature?
Even seeing such a powerful storm creature you decided to go closer?
Finally, not knowing what the creature is, you decided to attack it? Or decided to approach it so close that it decided to attack you?

This sounds like one of those "random" encounters that there would have been lots of warning about and which you could have bypassed if you hadn't decided to engage it but we weren't there and without a lot more detail it is hard to tell how things went down.

[Keravath]

That could be a valid plot device. The new villain is using a modified version of Dream to torture the players into fighting enemies far beyond their capabilities while they sleep. "Death" means they start the next day with Exhaustion. Without magic, potions, defeating their Dream combatants, or some means of forcing rest, the players will die in roughly 6 days.

Now that is a cool plot device idea with a decent and pressing time limit :)

[GloatingSwine]

Really, DMs should just not use random encounters. Or at least make them "random" encounters, and not "I'm gonna flip to a random page in the Monster Manual" kind of encounters.


Random encounters have an important function in that they present the idea that the entire world is not wholly under the control of the GM.

But the important thing to randomise isn't what they are but whether they happen.

The best way to have a "random encounter table" is like four or five challenge appropriate things that are fit decent range of situations within an environment and then pick an appropriate one when the random encounter rolls up.

So for instance have a list of two or three things that the players can stumble into in a given place (dungeon, forest, on the road, etc.) and two or three things that can stumble into them, and pick one that fits whatever they're doing when the encounter fires.

[EdenIndustries]

You were lacking arcane power you had plenty of devine power. Did the spells get mismanaged?

I mean entangle is druid spell. That gives nasty negative 1/2 moment.

Did the druids have an escape spell tree walk something similar. Turn into Animal form fly earth elemental sink into the ground.

The ranger might be in deep trouble without a movement spell of some type.

Flee is an option. You tried it at what 30 feet a round times four? For two rounds. My mage would dimension door 800 feet random direction (you did not have that) but ask about other magical movement.

You have every right to feel cheated but in reality you should had some long range movement spell at that level. Fly potion at the very least.

In OP's defense, Entangle wouldn't affect the Elder Tempest and that thing is very fast, especially if it uses legendary actions to move (600 ft/round if it uses Dash action and all Legendary Actions on movement). I don't think even Dimension Door would do anything. You'd need some VERY long range movement options to get away from this thing if it was intending to hurt you.

[Tallytrev813]

I'd just ride with it. He TPKed you, it is what it is. DM is DM, if you want it to be fun, you ride with it and let go of the past. You'll all get over it soon and hopefully the DM picked up on the demeanor at the table

[cyberfunkr]

Life happens.. roll with it.

In the campaign I'm currently in, we were a bunch of level 10's and came across a sealed sarcophagus. Detect Magic only showed faint necromancy. We figured it was the vampire we heard about from the rumors.

Stone Shaped that thing open and out popped... a lich.

First action, it thanked us for letting it out. Second action, Power Word Kill.

With a lucky roll of a nat 20 for Counterspell, we started combat.

It was intense to say the least, but with Darkness, Silence, Wall of Fire, and a few other spells and lucky hits we actually won. So yes, a bunch of level 10's can take down a CR21 lich. It's just a matter of being smart.

Of course, now we need to hunt down its phylactery and destroy it for good as we just made a very powerful arch-nemesis.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Your DM randomly rolled a CR23 encounter for a party of four 10th level characters, and said "Sure, why not?"

That's just a terrible decision. He should've known better, and would have if he thought about it for just a few freaking seconds.

So, everyone's dead now, the campaign's over. Lesson learned, or maybe not.

My advice is to tell him it's someone else's turn to DM for a while.

[Sigreid]

Slightly contrary opinion. It really all depends on whether there was any way to avoid the fight.

[darknite]

Really depends on the vibe at the table and how you guys run. I'm typically in the Matt Colville "The Earth Elemental Steps On Your Head (to make sure you're dead)" camp of D&D lethality. But if you were set up into a absolute no-escape situation then yeah, that sucks and your DM should of known better. Lots of druids there - was changing into an eagle or air elemental and GTFOing just not an option?

[Digimike]

There's a few ways I feel about this one.

If the DM gave you a nice cinematic "A massive and unnatural storm is heading your direction. From within this storm you can clearly make out an enormous serpent like creature with many sets of feathery wings made from clouds, wind, and lightning at the center." This creature doesn't seem to have noticed you and your group but is heading in your direction.

If that was the lead in then I have no issue whatsoever. Your party would have had time to decide what to do and either chose to prepare or scamper off and hide.

If your DM decided that you should actually fight this, then I can only conclude that either they wanted to TPK you, or wanted to teach you a lesson not to roll a group consisting of mostly 1 class.

It's plausible that a party of 10's could have survived taking it on. Tiny hut until it's close. Then Either with some protection from evil spells, strong group healing, and high damage output. Or with a good strategy to eat it's legendary resistances up and banish it. But a party of druid's and a ranger-ish had a very low chance of winning.

[SpikeFightwicky]

Life happens.. roll with it.

In the campaign I'm currently in, we were a bunch of level 10's and came across a sealed sarcophagus. Detect Magic only showed faint necromancy. We figured it was the vampire we heard about from the rumors.

Stone Shaped that thing open and out popped... a lich.

First action, it thanked us for letting it out. Second action, Power Word Kill.

With a lucky roll of a nat 20 for Counterspell, we started combat.

It was intense to say the least, but with Darkness, Silence, Wall of Fire, and a few other spells and lucky hits we actually won. So yes, a bunch of level 10's can take down a CR21 lich. It's just a matter of being smart.

Of course, now we need to hunt down its phylactery and destroy it for good as we just made a very powerful arch-nemesis.

Ok... Have to ask: why Darkness?

[diplomancer]

Maybe this all druid party was using metal armor and Nature just got PISSED (with apologies to the "super strict ruling" thread).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Lots of druids there - was changing into an eagle or air elemental and GTFOing just not an option?
Not when an Elder Tempest has a 120ft fly speed, legendary action movement, and a ranged attack that can hit you from literally a mile away, no. If this thing wants to catch you, your only hope is Teleport

[Willie the Duck]

The base level interpretation from what the OP has stated is that the DM decided to use a random encounter while camping setup, and followed that framework to its logical conclusion, whether the resulting random roll was a reasonable opponent for the party or not be damned (after all, if it had come up as a super-favorable reward v. challenge situation, you would have gotten that encounter as well). That's a definition of fair. I've certainly had something like that happen and we just rolled with it (I think it was a 'you have to play what you rolled, no matter' campaign and someone rolled a character with 3 or 4 stats below 7, and we all got behind it and had a blast).

That said, I think, eve if you are playing a 'we rolled the dice, and this is what you got'-style of gaming, the DM still made a mistake in 1) having the elder bugaboo that randomly appeared care enough about the four camping yokals as to attack them and 2) not making it clear how outclassed you were until it was too late to reasonably escape. If that went down remotely as described I would also feel angry.

[Vorpalchicken]

Yep. Metal armor on druids attracts elder tempests like a lightning rod. The fools.

[Zuras]

Have to agree that the encounter sounds inappropriate as it was described.

Why exactly did the massive storm elemental fixate on your party? Heck, why did it even notice you were there? It creates a mile-wide storm, right? The way I run elementals, they don’t ever like to get too close to the ground, so it likely would be floating at 100’ or higher. Was the party standing in the rain angrily shooting arrows into the sky or something?

Just because the party encounters a high CR creature doesn’t mean they have to fight it. I would have probably played the whole thing out as an exploration pillar encounter and only said “roll for initiative” if you actively decided to fly into the storm and try to punch it in the face.

What exactly happened between “a storm’s a-comin, you can taste it in the wind” and “roll for initiative”?

[Sniddy]

What exactly happened between “a storm’s a-comin, you can taste it in the wind” and “roll for initiative”?

Rumbling in distance....we circled the wagons

Yes we could have done more - maybe, but little...but for all we knew it was a storm, a monster passing in the distance...I had no reason to expect something this big - I mean we were looking out trying to find it so I suppose....I mean most things we could do only last 1 minute or so, perhaps a summon could have been cast....it was a long rest coming so we could have been more wasteful on spell slots - but again, the warning was rumbling...and we had no reason to expect anything like this

And I stress this, we'd done prep on this one, we knew the kinda monster we were facing...we had no big archmagi who could summon something like this against us....we were basically 4 people crossing a forest to get to a village - this was a bolt out of the blue

Monster came down did some lighting attacks - we attacked back, realised by end of round one how hopelessly outclassed we were, tried to run, and then 3 out of 4 of us got the mile long gale blast tot he face, knocked down - the one not tried a hail Mary - all in various specials, probably had a 20% chance to pull something....but all that done was annoy it

Tank was down at this point - most people battered so it just went through the rest like a hot knife in butter - as for why - we guess it was it's forest or something...

[Sigreid]

Rumbling in distance....we circled the wagons

Yes we could have done more - maybe, but little...but for all we knew it was a storm, a monster passing in the distance...I had no reason to expect something this big - I mean we were looking out trying to find it so I suppose....I mean most things we could do only last 1 minute or so, perhaps a summon could have been cast....it was a long rest coming so we could have been more wasteful on spell slots - but again, the warning was rumbling...and we had no reason to expect anything like this

And I stress this, we'd done prep on this one, we knew the kinda monster we were facing...we had no big archmagi who could summon something like this against us....we were basically 4 people crossing a forest to get to a village - this was a bolt out of the blue

Monster came down did some lighting attacks - we attacked back, realised by end of round one how hopelessly outclassed we were, tried to run, and then 3 out of 4 of us got the mile long gale blast tot he face, knocked down - the one not tried a hail Mary - all in various specials, probably had a 20% chance to pull something....but all that done was annoy it

Tank was down at this point - most people battered so it just went through the rest like a hot knife in butter - as for why - we guess it was it's forest or something...

Yeah, that's a bit harsh. It would be I interesting to me to hear why your DM thought it would engage with you ants unprovoked instead of just moving on.

Edited because phone auto correct sucks.

[Yunru]

I'm more curious how the DM decided the only sign of a massive living storm approaching was "rumbling".

[Aspheric]

I'm more curious how the DM decided the only sign of a massive living storm approaching was "rumbling".

And that a party of multiple druids, of all people, couldn't tell that an incredibly powerful elemental was at the heart of it. I'm also curious why the DM thought the campaign should end in a TPK with a random encounter, rather than literally anything else.

[Witty Username]

I'm more curious how the DM decided the only sign of a massive living storm approaching was "rumbling".

This.

I believe I have heard this referred to as "Random Encounter, cause **** you!"

[Sigreid]

This.

I believe I have heard this referred to as "Random Encounter, cause **** you!"

With just the information we have it sounds to me like a more elaborate version of "Rocks fall, everyone dies".

[Grod_The_Giant]

And I stress this, we'd done prep on this one, we knew the kinda monster we were facing...
Can you elaborate on this point?

[Lunali]

Can you elaborate on this point?

It sounds to me like they knew the capabilities of the actual story enemy, and that that person was not capable of summoning something like this. So the random CR23 just happened to be there and wasn't brought by the enemy they were actually trying to fight.

[MaxWilson]

So, we have 4 party members

We're not optimised, we're fairly casual - we're level 10, a druid, a home brewed...nearest thing would be a ranger I guess...a druid and a druid/barbarian

We got TPKed with a challenge 23 monster

I just don't see, realistically, how we could have won - and running was tried. Just feels like we were going to die, whatever we did, and it wasn't a one shot....so, am I right to be a little wounded or was it a justified TPK

Nope, you weren't cheated, you just lost. You could have just as easily won--this was a tough fight, but it's only got AC 19, 260ish HP, middling damage (which Absorb Elements would let you counter, on every single PC in that party), and decent saves.

If you replayed that fight, you'd probably win it about 50% of the time. If you knew it was coming ahead of time and got to prepare spells specifically for it, you'd probably win more like 80% of the time. Nothing prevented you from getting under cover/out of the storm, Polymorphing it into a toad, killing it with magical arrows, using Meld Into Stone or Earth Elemental form to burrow out of its reach, using Pass Without Trace to hide from it, or playing character classes with even more and different Run Away options. (If your Ranger was a Gloomstalker you could even have Rope Tricked away.)

The one weird thing is that apparently the encounter started at very close range, but that probably worked in your favor by letting you hit it back.

Also, this was a wilderness encounter, and you were presumably fully rested from overland travel. CR 23 is not unreasonable. Even WotC has some uberdeadly random encounters like ancient dragons on their random encounter tables.

When you play a game, sometimes you lose. If that's not a possibility it isn't a fun game. So sorry, better luck next time.

I think I would enjoy your DM.


Really, DMs should just not use random encounters. Or at least make them "random" encounters, and not "I'm gonna flip to a random page in the Monster Manual" kind of encounters.

Maybe it's time your DM takes a break, or just tell him that you feel he made a mistake? A good DM takes criticism, just like a good party accepts a TPK (when it's deserved).

I think I might be agreeing with you here, but I'll say it anyway:

The problem with wandering monsters/random encounters is typically the lack of story hooks on the encounter entry. "2d4 trolls" is boring, and implies "2d4 trolls burst from hiding somewhere and start attacking you until you kill them all." That's a very limited kind of encounter there, not much room for player choice and little reason for the players to even remember it after the encounter is over. Couldn't it at least be "troll camp, 2d4 trolls, 50% sleeping. Have captured a nobleman from nearby castle, his family and retainers, and a dozen horses, and are gradually eating them up while awaiting ransom"? Give me a situation to interact with, not just a list of monsters sitting around doing nothing in particular.

In this case, why was the Elder Elemental rampaging across the land attacking everyone? Does this kind of thing happen often? Why would it choose to kill the PC druids anyway? What was this random encounter really about?

You weren't cheated on difficulty but you were cheated, to a degree, on story. But this is commonplace including on WotC random encounter tables in Xanathar's.

[Skylivedk]

You weren't cheated on difficulty but you were cheated, to a degree, on story. But this is commonplace including on WotC random encounter tables in Xanathar's.

It seems to me by the description given that they were also, as part of being cheated on story, being cheated on information. We don't know the narration, but it seems super odd that this kind of party weren't given a heads up in terms of great danger from Mother Nature. Information is key to making good decisions and they barely seemed to have had any.

[JackPhoenix]

Ok... Have to ask: why Darkness?

Can't speak for cyberfunkr, but Darkness (or anything that makes the caster unable to see) stops quite a lot of spells. It (generally) works both ways, but it can be a good way to take away a lot of spellcaster's tools. Standard lich can dispel it, though.

[MaxWilson]

It seems to me by the description given that they were also, as part of being cheated on story, being cheated on information. We don't know the narration, but it seems super odd that this kind of party weren't given a heads up in terms of great danger from Mother Nature. Information is key to making good decisions and they barely seemed to have had any.

Good point. Maybe starting at close range DIDN'T work to their advantage after all. If it had been roaring with rage and hitting them with legendary actions from a mile away that might have scared them into climbing a tree or hiding while there was still time.


Can't speak for cyberfunkr, but Darkness (or anything that makes the caster unable to see) stops quite a lot of spells. It (generally) works both ways, but it can be a good way to take away a lot of spellcaster's tools. Standard lich can dispel it, though.

Standard lich ignores Darkness because Truesight.

[JackPhoenix]

I think I might be agreeing with you here, but I'll say it anyway:

The problem with wandering monsters/random encounters is typically the lack of story hooks on the encounter entry. "2d4 trolls" is boring, and implies "2d4 trolls burst from hiding somewhere and start attacking you until you kill them all." That's a very limited kind of encounter there, not much room for player choice and little reason for the players to even remember it after the encounter is over. Couldn't it at least be "troll camp, 2d4 trolls, 50% sleeping. Have captured a nobleman from nearby castle, his family and retainers, and a dozen horses, and are gradually eating them up while awaiting ransom"? Give me a situation to interact with, not just a list of monsters sitting around doing nothing in particular.

In this case, why was the Elder Elemental rampaging across the land attacking everyone? Does this kind of thing happen often? Why would it choose to kill the PC druids anyway? What was this random encounter really about?

You weren't cheated on difficulty but you were cheated, to a degree, on story. But this is commonplace including on WotC random encounter tables in Xanathar's.

While I agree with you that random encounter should be more than "x number of monster y attacks you out of nowhere", I don't think random encounter tables (especially generic ones in DMG or XGtE, specific adventures are a different matter, and they often *do* include story hooks for random encounters) are a good place to do that. The tables are fine as a randomizer, the same way dice are, but it's the GM's job to turn the random output into something interesting. I can get 2d4 trolls and turn them into a hunting party searching for prey, desperate refugees from a tribe destroyed by something worse or a group of monstrous, but peaceful traders. And I can decide which one is it according to my current needs or just on a whim. And if the party encounters the trolls again later, it may be the same or a different group, doing the same or different thing.

If a random encounter table told me there's a "troll camp, 2d4 trolls, 50% sleeping. Have captured a nobleman from nearby castle, his family and retainers, and a dozen horses, and are gradually eating them up while awaiting ransom", it may not fit my needs. Perhaps there's no castle nearby (especially if we're using generic tables instead of adventure-specific ones), or it's been already established that the noble works with the trolls, or the group has already got the same random encounter before, and why would there be two different groups of trolls doing the exact same thing? In practice, I would have to come up with my own scenario anyway, or re-roll the encounter, making the table less useful for its purpose.


Standard lich ignores Darkness because Truesight.

Whoops, just checked spell list and not rest of the description.

[MaxWilson]

While I agree with you that random encounter should be more than "x number of monster y attacks you out of nowhere", I don't think random encounter tables (especially generic ones in DMG or XGtE, specific adventures are a different matter, and they often *do* include story hooks for random encounters) are a good place to do that. The tables are fine as a randomizer, the same way dice are, but it's the GM's job to turn the random output into something interesting. I can get 2d4 trolls and turn them into a hunting party searching for prey, desperate refugees from a tribe destroyed by something worse or a group of monstrous, but peaceful traders. And I can decide which one is it according to my current needs or just on a whim. And if the party encounters the trolls again later, it may be the same or a different group, doing the same or different thing.

If a random encounter table told me there's a "troll camp, 2d4 trolls, 50% sleeping. Have captured a nobleman from nearby castle, his family and retainers, and a dozen horses, and are gradually eating them up while awaiting ransom", it may not fit my needs. Perhaps there's no castle nearby (especially if we're using generic tables instead of adventure-specific ones), or it's been already established that the noble works with the trolls, or the group has already got the same random encounter before, and why would there be two different groups of trolls doing the exact same thing? In practice, I would have to come up with my own scenario anyway, or re-roll the encounter, making the table less useful for its purpose.

Having a random situation which you sometimes decide is inappropriate and should be tweaked is better than having no situation in the tables at all. This is doubly true if you're publishing the tables for other people to use (like in Xanathar's). What real value do I as a DM get out of a table entry that says, "2d4 Galeb Duhr"? It's better than nothing but it's still only half an entry, and if I'm creative enough to turn that on the fly into something other than a simple fight I'll probably also creative enough that I'm writing my own, *better* encounter tables already (because smart prep). So in reality your product is just a list of random fights unless you include situations, either inline with the monsters or in a separate orthogonal table, that a DM can actually use immediately at the table.

Which is IMO why the OP is so unsatisfied. It was just a random free-floating monster with no context, and they died for no reason and with no warning or deliberate choices involved. It was a boring but deadly encounter, not a fun-but-deadly encounter. Off the top of my head I have no ideas for making Elder Tempests fun but deadly, and so I wouldn't put one in my table until I do.

You should never kill PCs in a way that bores the players. You want the players to be kicking themselves and thinking about what they should do differently next time.

Edit: okay, I have the germ of an idea. An Elder Tempest that's somehow been anchored in place? Maybe a mountain fell on it ages ago, and it's been pinned in this location ever since and is still in a rage about it, and just killing whatever moves trying to break apart the mountain? That's not interesting yet because there's nothing for PCs to do yet except avoid or kill it, but what if we... add a colony of mad dwarves who are experimenting with lightning-powered devices, purposefully encouraging it to hit them? There may be an idea there.

[JackPhoenix]

Having a random situation which you sometimes decide is inappropriate and should be tweaked is better than having no situation in the tables at all. This is doubly true if you're publishing the tables for other people to use (like in Xanathar's). What real value do I as a DM get out of a table entry that says, "2d4 Galeb Duhr"? It's better than nothing but it's still only half an entry, and if I'm creative enough to turn that on the fly into something other than a simple fight I'll probably also creative enough that I'm writing my own, *better* encounter tables already (because smart prep). So in reality your product is just a list of random fights unless you include situations, either inline with the monsters or in a separate orthogonal table, that a DM can actually use immediately at the table.

Which is IMO why the OP is so unsatisfied. It was just a random free-floating monster with no context, and they died for no reason and with no warning or choices involved. It was a boring but deadly encounter, not a fun-but-deadly encounter.

I disagree that XGtE's (or DMG) tables are a good example of bad way of doing things. Those are generic and lacking specific context out of their very nature: they are intended to be usable in any game, any campaign setting, any adventure. The book even outright states that you should customize the entries for best results. It notes that not every encounter means combat. They provide base for the GM to build on, and they save a lot of time. Coming up for a reason what the 2d4 trolls are doing there and how they'll react takes few seconds, minutes at worst. Setting up the map (if you're using one), deciding positions, etc. will take the same amount of time whether the table tells you what the trolls are doing there or if you come up with the reason on spot. Creating the table whole-cloth, on the other hand, would take much longer, and it would involve browsing through MM, deciding what creatures are appropriate for the terrain, and (depending on the GMing style) what (and how many) are appropriate for the party level and composition.

Specific adventures have no such excuse, though. But they also provide more informations. In CoS, the table may give you 2d4 scouts, but there's a short paragraph mentioning that they are looking for missing villager and aren't hostile, and ask the PCs for help. It also says that 3d6 wolves attack, and can't be charmed or frightened away, because they are working for Strahd. Both come with specific hooks, because they fit into a framework of specific adventure in certain area. Both of those hooks will also fit in one sentence, and still require GM work to setup the situation, even if the information given is more detailed than just the table entry with no context.

[Sniddy]

Which is IMO why the OP is so unsatisfied. It was just a random free-floating monster with no context, and they died for no reason and with no warning or deliberate choices involved. It was a boring but deadly encounter, not a fun-but-deadly encounter. Off the top of my head I have no ideas for making Elder Tempests fun but deadly, and so I wouldn't put one in my table until I do.

You should never kill PCs in a way that bores the players. You want the players to be kicking themselves and thinking about what they should do differently next time.

.

Thank you, I think this I about right - and the whole 50/50 winning we'd had some encounters so had a few depleted resources - I reckon had we wailed on it, with the way things were...not a chance - not really the dice could have been kind but seeing as the DM got 2 crits in the first 3 rounds (another thing that makes me question - but dice are fickle)

We died, and it was random unfair, uncounterable and...dull - just wrong place wrong time which is a darn terrible way to end a 18+ month campaign

[Samayu]

So is the campaign over? Or are you making new characters to pick up the story where it left off? I feel like a DM who TPK's on a random encounter is a DM without a story to tell. But maybe he's going to continue his story with new characters. Or new players? Have you spoken to him about it yet? Maybe he feels there were some obvious solutions you missed. If that were the case, I can see why he would feel the outcome is not unwarranted.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Wait wait wait wait wait.

Your DM rolled a CR 23, borderline-godly avatar of destruction, one perpetually shrouded in a miles-wide thunderstorm, as a RANDOM ENCOUNTER?

What the crap.

Had to post. We recently had a 4-man level 13 team take down an Empyrean in customized Adamantine heavy plate armor that put his base AC in the low 30's. It's doable. It took 4 rounds and one heroic sacrifice, but it was doable.

[MaxWilson]

I disagree that XGtE's (or DMG) tables are a good example of bad way of doing things. Those are generic and lacking specific context out of their very nature: they are intended to be usable in any game, any campaign setting, any adventure. The book even outright states that you should customize the entries for best results. It notes that not every encounter means combat. They provide base for the GM to build on, and they save a lot of time. Coming up for a reason what the 2d4 trolls are doing there and how they'll react takes few seconds, minutes at worst. Setting up the map (if you're using one), deciding positions, etc. will take the same amount of time whether the table tells you what the trolls are doing there or if you come up with the reason on spot. Creating the table whole-cloth, on the other hand, would take much longer, and it would involve browsing through MM, deciding what creatures are appropriate for the terrain, and (depending on the GMing style) what (and how many) are appropriate for the party level and composition.

I strenuously disagree. Pulling random monsters out of the MM is easy. Kobold.club will do it for you if you like. Making 2d4 Galeb Duhr or 1 Elder Tempest into an encounter with interesting interactivity options is the harder part (BTW your "trolls hunting" is still pretty boring IMO, needs improvement before it's worth including), and if you build it into the encounter table you can make sure that DMs never roll up a boring-but-deadly encounter like the one that killed the OP.

Never kill PCs in ways that bore the players. Xanathar's tables aren't good examples of random encounter tables, they're just teaching DMs how to be boring. (The non-monster entries are also mostly boring, just like the monster entries, and devoid of interesting interactivity.) No wonder so many DMs' takeaway is "Why bother?"