Is Read Thoughts underrated?

[Xayah]

In every cleric guide I've read, the Knowledge Cleric's lvl 6 Channel Divinity: Read Thoughts is rated 'good' at best. In any discussion on cleric as a class or 'name your favourite domain', Knowledge Domain rarely comes up, and when it does, it's for Knowledge Of The Ages. I don't get this.

Don't get me wrong, Knowledge Of The Ages is awesome. Getting proficiency on whatever you want is great, although in my experience after going through 6 levels with a Knowledge Cleric, 99% of the time, someone in your party is going to be proficient with what you need anyway, especially considering the Knowledge Cleric + Sage background gets you ever Int skill already, before even considering proficiencies from base cleric. As for tools, that's great and all, but honestly, how often do tools come up and do you actually have access to them? Minimally, in my experience. Outside of vehicles, that is, but 10 minutes is never long enough for those.

Read Thoughts, however, just seems so universally useful in every social situation. I've played one session at level 6 now and used it twice; first time was to read a merchant's mind, find out she too knew her wares were overpriced, before using the built-in Suggestion to get a much better bargain, slightly below the lowest she thought she'd be going.
The second time was at an auction where a losing party was threatening to blow up the hall with a lvl 5 Fireball scroll. Instantly, I read his mind to be sure he was actually willing to go through with it, before whispering a suggestion that the helmet he wanted so badly really wasn't worth giving up his life for. When a friend of his took the scroll and tried to continue, my wizard jumped in with Misty Step and swiftly took the scroll from him.

Overall, this just seems like such a useful Channel Divinity, one of the absolute best in my eyes. So why does it go ignored so often? Wisdom saves are generally not the best on the people you'll be using it on, as they will usually be more simple-minded folks who you just want a bargain from or something similar, and by level 6 you'll have a spell save DC of 14-15 anyway, which is pretty good. It seems so incredibly applicable and honestly the main feature of the Knowledge Domain (together with Blessings Of Knowledge probably, because it's necessary for the whole 'Knowledge' part). I'd just like to see some recognition for it.

[Yora]

Optimization is generally about combat optimization. Read thoughts has little combat use and is more of a social ability.

[Kyutaru]

Until we get a social system based on hard numbers and political combat, taking roleplay abilities has the stigma associated with it that they are either useless or amazing depending entirely on your DM's subjective whims. Rolls aren't quite like that and are rather consistent so people prefer to go for mechanical benefits. It's a fine ability to take if you want that for a character but when the dragons come around and you're down one ability because it's a waste of time to use in battle then you might not think so. If an ability has limited use then it won't be as high on the rating chart.

[Greywander]

Optimization is generally about combat optimization. Read thoughts has little combat use and is more of a social ability.
While that tends to be true generally, it's not uncommon for optimization guides to branch out and cover noncombat optimization. For example, the many uses of an imp familiar for all those chainlocks, or how Jack of All Trades makes Reliable Talent apply to all ability checks, or combining Friends with Disguise Self, especially for warlocks with at-will Disguise Self.

I haven't had a chance to play a cleric yet, but Knowledge is what I'm most interested in playing over the other domains. Honestly, I like the whole subclass, about my only complaint would be that I'm not too excited about some of the domain spells.

[Nhorianscum]

In every cleric guide I've read, the Knowledge Cleric's lvl 6 Channel Divinity: Read Thoughts is rated 'good' at best. In any discussion on cleric as a class or 'name your favourite domain', Knowledge Domain rarely comes up, and when it does, it's for Knowledge Of The Ages. I don't get this.

Don't get me wrong, Knowledge Of The Ages is awesome. Getting proficiency on whatever you want is great, although in my experience after going through 6 levels with a Knowledge Cleric, 99% of the time, someone in your party is going to be proficient with what you need anyway, especially considering the Knowledge Cleric + Sage background gets you ever Int skill already, before even considering proficiencies from base cleric. As for tools, that's great and all, but honestly, how often do tools come up and do you actually have access to them? Minimally, in my experience. Outside of vehicles, that is, but 10 minutes is never long enough for those.

Read Thoughts, however, just seems so universally useful in every social situation. I've played one session at level 6 now and used it twice; first time was to read a merchant's mind, find out she too knew her wares were overpriced, before using the built-in Suggestion to get a much better bargain, slightly below the lowest she thought she'd be going.
The second time was at an auction where a losing party was threatening to blow up the hall with a lvl 5 Fireball scroll. Instantly, I read his mind to be sure he was actually willing to go through with it, before whispering a suggestion that the helmet he wanted so badly really wasn't worth giving up his life for. When a friend of his took the scroll and tried to continue, my wizard jumped in with Misty Step and swiftly took the scroll from him.

Overall, this just seems like such a useful Channel Divinity, one of the absolute best in my eyes. So why does it go ignored so often? Wisdom saves are generally not the best on the people you'll be using it on, as they will usually be more simple-minded folks who you just want a bargain from or something similar, and by level 6 you'll have a spell save DC of 14-15 anyway, which is pretty good. It seems so incredibly applicable and honestly the main feature of the Knowledge Domain (together with Blessings Of Knowledge probably, because it's necessary for the whole 'Knowledge' part). I'd just like to see some recognition for it.

Even if it was only the suggestion side this would be a superb channel. As is Knowledge 6/rouge 1 may be the best face in the game.

That said the knowledge domain is just silly overall as it's features are effectively "read the DM's notes"

[Ventruenox]

This would require DM buy in, but I could see one potential combat application.

Towards a single opponent, for one battle, use of the Read Thoughts could function similar to the Foresight spell at the additional cost of your reaction each round. If you can read your opponent's surface thoughts, you ought to be able to see how he plans on moving and attacking. That should give you a split second to react. It is no more powerful than the Darkness/Devils Sight combo, has extra economy cost, opponent gets a save, and isn't available till Cleric 6.

Inspired by the Garth Ennis Hitman vs Batman.

[Willie the Duck]

Don't get me wrong, Knowledge Of The Ages is awesome. Getting proficiency on whatever you want is great, although in my experience after going through 6 levels with a Knowledge Cleric, 99% of the time, someone in your party is going to be proficient with what you need anyway, especially considering the Knowledge Cleric + Sage background gets you ever Int skill already, before even considering proficiencies from base cleric. As for tools, that's great and all, but honestly, how often do tools come up and do you actually have access to them? Minimally, in my experience. Outside of vehicles, that is, but 10 minutes is never long enough for those.

Well, I've had tools other than vehicles show up quite a bit in my gaming, so I think a lot of this is game/DM-dependent. However, I think the big thing that KotA gives is expertise (well, double proficiency with another name). This is game-changing... iffffff your DM is of the variety that makes you make rolls a lot. If you actually have to beat the dc 10, 15, or 20 knowledge checks to get suchandsuch plot coupons, then double proficiency is a game changer. Likewise, it lets a relatively low-int (and thus better other-stats) knowledge cleric have a decent chance at the checks. For this reason, a knowledge cleric is a pretty sweet choice for a party with non-int-based arcane support (or no arcane casters... no wizards is my point).


Read Thoughts, however, just seems so universally useful in every social situation. I've played one session at level 6 now and used it twice; first time was to read a merchant's mind, find out she too knew her wares were overpriced, before using the built-in Suggestion to get a much better bargain, slightly below the lowest she thought she'd be going.
The second time was at an auction where a losing party was threatening to blow up the hall with a lvl 5 Fireball scroll. Instantly, I read his mind to be sure he was actually willing to go through with it, before whispering a suggestion that the helmet he wanted so badly really wasn't worth giving up his life for. When a friend of his took the scroll and tried to continue, my wizard jumped in with Misty Step and swiftly took the scroll from him.

Overall, this just seems like such a useful Channel Divinity, one of the absolute best in my eyes. So why does it go ignored so often? Wisdom saves are generally not the best on the people you'll be using it on, as they will usually be more simple-minded folks who you just want a bargain from or something similar, and by level 6 you'll have a spell save DC of 14-15 anyway, which is pretty good. It seems so incredibly applicable and honestly the main feature of the Knowledge Domain (together with Blessings Of Knowledge probably, because it's necessary for the whole 'Knowledge' part). I'd just like to see some recognition for it.

I think one issue is that it is non-combat, as others have mentioned. The DM-dependent-ness of divination in general being another. Another not yet mentioned is the marginal utility -- Read Thoughts, in isolation, is a wonderful ability. It alone can do great things. However, a bog-standard cleric is already pretty good at much of what it accomplishes. If a cleric doesn't pick the knowledge domain and thus have this ability, they quite possibly can accomplish the same thing with some combination of Augury, Zone of Truth, Clairvoyance, Divination, Locate Object/Creature, and so on. Sure, read thoughts is more convenient/pertinent to some problems, but it would probably look more impressive on a character class (or race) where you might not otherwise have some really powerful divination support.

[darknite]

Detect Thoughts is a very cool spell. However in practice it's need for VSM components and it's 1 minute duration are drawbacks in social/diplomatic interchanges. Everyone can see you cast it and it's gone before you know it. Sorcs with Subtle and Extended Spell can use this to better effect in these situations. Otherwise it's a really nice interrogation spell and my characters that have it on their spell list usually carry a scroll or two of Detect Thoughts.

[Xayah]

Thank you all for the great responses! I'll respond to each of them.

Optimization is generally about combat optimization. Read thoughts has little combat use and is more of a social ability.


Until we get a social system based on hard numbers and political combat, taking roleplay abilities has the stigma associated with it that they are either useless or amazing depending entirely on your DM's subjective whims. Rolls aren't quite like that and are rather consistent so people prefer to go for mechanical benefits. It's a fine ability to take if you want that for a character but when the dragons come around and you're down one ability because it's a waste of time to use in battle then you might not think so. If an ability has limited use then it won't be as high on the rating chart.
I'd agree here, and sure optimization is generally about combat, but the guides that rated Read Thoughts at 'good' or worse generally rated Knowledge Of The Ages higher than at, often at 'great' or 'essential'. Obviously, Knowledge Of The Ages is out of combat-only as well, and in my opinion worse than Read Thoughts 99% of the time.


Even if it was only the suggestion side this would be a superb channel. As is Knowledge 6/rouge 1 may be the best face in the game.

That said the knowledge domain is just silly overall as it's features are effectively "read the DM's notes"
You're not wrong on the Knowledge Domain here, but come on, 'read the DMs notes' is a pretty cool ability. Hell, my DM has been abusing the fact that I have the ritual Identify as practically the only way for us to find out what the many magic items we've been finding do... at all. Sure, any other DM could wave this problem by just accepting the players somehow know it, but this makes sense in world and makes my character feel useful.


This would require DM buy in, but I could see one potential combat application.

Towards a single opponent, for one battle, use of the Read Thoughts could function similar to the Foresight spell at the additional cost of your reaction each round. If you can read your opponent's surface thoughts, you ought to be able to see how he plans on moving and attacking. That should give you a split second to react. It is no more powerful than the Darkness/Devils Sight combo, has extra economy cost, opponent gets a save, and isn't available till Cleric 6.

Inspired by the Garth Ennis Hitman vs Batman.
I've thought of this myself, haven't gotten to try it yet though. I doubt my DM would complain about this and it'd be useful when I'm getting assaulted as I have been before. Still thought, it's hardly optimal in combat.

Then again, one shouldn't play Knowledge Cleric if they want to be optimal in combat.


Well, I've had tools other than vehicles show up quite a bit in my gaming, so I think a lot of this is game/DM-dependent. However, I think the big thing that KotA gives is expertise (well, double proficiency with another name). This is game-changing... iffffff your DM is of the variety that makes you make rolls a lot. If you actually have to beat the dc 10, 15, or 20 knowledge checks to get suchandsuch plot coupons, then double proficiency is a game changer. Likewise, it lets a relatively low-int (and thus better other-stats) knowledge cleric have a decent chance at the checks. For this reason, a knowledge cleric is a pretty sweet choice for a party with non-int-based arcane support (or no arcane casters... no wizards is my point).

I think you're confusing Knowledge Of The Ages and Blessings Of Knowledge. The former is a Channel Divinity option that gives you proficiency in one skill or tool of your choice for 10 minutes, while the latter gives you expertise in two knowledge skills of your choice. I definitely agree BoK is incredible and if I'd stop rolling <5 on every Int check ever, I'd be the smartest guy alive. My argument is that Read Thoughts is better has a Channel Divinity option than Knowledge Of The Ages.


I think one issue is that it is non-combat, as others have mentioned. The DM-dependent-ness of divination in general being another. Another not yet mentioned is the marginal utility -- Read Thoughts, in isolation, is a wonderful ability. It alone can do great things. However, a bog-standard cleric is already pretty good at much of what it accomplishes. If a cleric doesn't pick the knowledge domain and thus have this ability, they quite possibly can accomplish the same thing with some combination of Augury, Zone of Truth, Clairvoyance, Divination, Locate Object/Creature, and so on. Sure, read thoughts is more convenient/pertinent to some problems, but it would probably look more impressive on a character class (or race) where you might not otherwise have some really powerful divination support.
You definitely forgot the fact that it's a free Suggestion, which isn't on the Cleric list for non-Knowledge Clerics. This alone is a major draw. In addition, a major advantage is that I don't need almost any of those spells prepared at all. Read Thoughts on its own is all the divination I'll really need in social situations, and the auto-prepared Augury, Identify, and Suggestion give me everything it doesn't. Because of this, I've been able to freely have Revivify, Mass Healing Word, Spirit Guardians, Spiritual Weapon, Bless, Healing Word, and Cure Wounds prepared at all times while still offering near-flawless divination support.

Also, no VSM components is awesome, because what's the point of reading someone's mind if the person you're targeting can see it coming and immediately knows it's you.


Detect Thoughts is a very cool spell. However in practice it's need for VSM components and it's 1 minute duration are drawbacks in social/diplomatic interchanges. Everyone can see you cast it and it's gone before you know it. Sorcs with Subtle and Extended Spell can use this to better effect in these situations. Otherwise it's a really nice interrogation spell and my characters that have it on their spell list usually carry a scroll or two of Detect Thoughts.
Read Thoughts is not a spell and doesn't need VSM components. It's a Channel Divinity option for clerics of the Knowledge Domain that they get at level 6. It's actually awesome that it doesn't, because now you can do it in secret.

[Nhorianscum]

As somone who is currently playing a knowledge cleric I can agree that read the notes is an often useful and hilarious class feature to have. Even more so in social campains.

Also I'm addicted to divination spells x.x

[Willie the Duck]

I think you're confusing Knowledge Of The Ages and Blessings Of Knowledge. The former is a Channel Divinity option that gives you proficiency in one skill or tool of your choice for 10 minutes, while the latter gives you expertise in two knowledge skills of your choice. I definitely agree BoK is incredible and if I'd stop rolling <5 on every Int check ever, I'd be the smartest guy alive. My argument is that Read Thoughts is better has a Channel Divinity option than Knowledge Of The Ages.

You are correct, I confused ability names and successfully argued a point that wasn't in contention.


You definitely forgot the fact that it's a free Suggestion, which isn't on the Cleric list for non-Knowledge Clerics. This alone is a major draw. In addition, a major advantage is that I don't need almost any of those spells prepared at all. Read Thoughts on its own is all the divination I'll really need in social situations, and the auto-prepared Augury, Identify, and Suggestion give me everything it doesn't. Because of this, I've been able to freely have Revivify, Mass Healing Word, Spirit Guardians, Spiritual Weapon, Bless, Healing Word, and Cure Wounds prepared at all times while still offering near-flawless divination support.

I certainly didn't think of it. As to not needing those other spells prepared, as I very clearly stated, "read thoughts is more convenient/pertinent to some problems". A social situation where you do not have the opportunity to switch out your adventuring spells for divination ones (or worry that things might become violent, and thus want to have prepared divination support and all the other spells you mentioned) is one of those problems. That is, exactly as I said, the marginal utility of the knowledge cleric. For those potential PCs whose adventuring career might hinge upon that specific planning space, the knowledge cleric is an optimal choice.

[Xayah]

You are correct, I confused ability names and successfully argued a point that wasn't in contention.



I certainly didn't think of it. As to not needing those other spells prepared, as I very clearly stated, "read thoughts is more convenient/pertinent to some problems". A social situation where you do not have the opportunity to switch out your adventuring spells for divination ones (or worry that things might become violent, and thus want to have prepared divination support and all the other spells you mentioned) is one of those problems. That is, exactly as I said, the marginal utility of the knowledge cleric. For those potential PCs whose adventuring career might hinge upon that specific planning space, the knowledge cleric is an optimal choice.
We can agree to disagree here, but I feel like 'social situations where things might get violent' are a lot more common than you seem to think. Even with proper preparation, going into a warlord's castle to bargain without your combat spells prepared, or trying to talk a hostile king into not attacking the nearby city while relying on Clairvoyance to fight people, or taking Augury to make a deal with a devil, it all just doesn't sound fun and I feel like these situations aren't especially rare.

[MaxWilson]

Also, no VSM components is awesome, because what's the point of reading someone's mind if the person you're targeting can see it coming and immediately knows it's you.

Do note though that if you convert it into Suggestion, you get to cast Suggestion without expending a spell slot but not without VM components.

Also note that a normal Detect Thoughts spellcaster can in principle step outside, cast Detect Thoughts, and read somebody's mind without them every seeing any spell components. The Knowledge Cleric's advantage here is that he doesn't have to step outside, so it's easier to just work read-reading into the conversation.


We can agree to disagree here, but I feel like 'social situations where things might get violent' are a lot more common than you seem to think. Even with proper preparation, going into a warlord's castle to bargain without your combat spells prepared, or trying to talk a hostile king into not attacking the nearby city while relying on Clairvoyance to fight people, or taking Augury to make a deal with a devil, it all just doesn't sound fun and I feel like these situations aren't especially rare.

I agree. In my games at least, these situations are ubiquitous. E.g. "The giant wants to you guess his riddle, or you can't cross his bridge without fighting him." [READ THOUGHTS] "The answer is 'Silence'."

[Willie the Duck]

We can agree to disagree here, but I feel like 'social situations where things might get violent' are a lot more common than you seem to think. Even with proper preparation, going into a warlord's castle to bargain without your combat spells prepared, or trying to talk a hostile king into not attacking the nearby city while relying on Clairvoyance to fight people, or taking Augury to make a deal with a devil, it all just doesn't sound fun and I feel like these situations aren't especially rare.

It's not a question of agreeing or disagreeing. I like the ability. I am trying to explain why I think RT is rated as it is in most guides, and it seems to me that you aren't understanding the argument I am putting forth. Putting forth an explanation is all I'm trying to do here, not convince you for or against the ability.

Are you familiar with the term Marginal Utility (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_utility)? Does my argument make sense?

[Xayah]

It's not a question of agreeing or disagreeing. I like the ability. I am trying to explain why I think RT is rated as it is in most guides, and it seems to me that you aren't understanding the argument I am putting forth. Putting forth an explanation is all I'm trying to do here, not convince you for or against the ability.

Are you familiar with the term Marginal Utility (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_utility)? Does my argument make sense?
I see, my bad. I wasn’t familiar with that term and so figured you were using the term ‘marginal’ to mean ‘minimal’, but this does change what you are saying, thank you.

[Gamer92131]

Yes indeed it is.