AoE spells with duration

[heavyfuel]

What happens if a character leaves or enters the area?

On a spell like Maw of Chaos (SpC), it's pretty obvious. You leave the area, you stop taking damage. You enter the area, you take damage.

However, what about a spell like Confusion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/confusion.htm)? If they leave the area, do they stop being confused? If they roll a 51 and run away, do they only run away for a few squares and then stop being confused? Or does it affect only characters that were present at the time of the spell was cast and these characters are affected for the whole duration?

It's a bit confusing. Thanks!

[JNAProductions]

The duration on Confusion is not the duration of the AoE, it's the duration of the infliction. It affects people in an AoE, but should they fail their save, they're dealing with it for the duration no matter where they go.

[MisterKaws]

The duration on Confusion is not the duration of the AoE, it's the duration of the infliction. It affects people in an AoE, but should they fail their save, they're dealing with it for the duration no matter where they go.

This. Confusion is a burst spell. Burst spells all have an instantaneous effect, with possibly lasting consequences. In the case of Confusion, the instantaneous effect is the confusion itself, which lasts for a while afterwards.

[Necroticplague]

What happens if a character leaves or enters the area?

On a spell like Maw of Chaos (SpC), it's pretty obvious. You leave the area, you stop taking damage. You enter the area, you take damage.


This. Confusion is a burst spell. Burst spells all have an instantaneous effect, with possibly lasting consequences. In the case of Confusion, the instantaneous effect is the confusion itself, which lasts for a while afterwards.

The reason it's obvious for Maw of Chaos is because it's an emanation, which is literally defined as 'a burst, but it sticks around'. Burst like Fireball and Confusion are one-and-done, emanations stick around to keep blighting people in their area.

[liquidformat]

is there a raw way to turn a burst into an emanation? Could you permanent it to a location or something like that?

[Necroticplague]

is there a raw way to turn a burst into an emanation? Could you permanent it to a location or something like that?

No, such a thing wouldn't even make much sense. What would Fireball as an emanation be?

[liquidformat]

No, such a thing wouldn't even make much sense. What would Fireball as an emanation be?

a very small sun floating in the air?

[Allanimal]

What would Fireball as an emanation be?

Awesome is what it would be.

[MisterKaws]

Awesome is what it would be.

Then grab your utterances and curse your way through the world as a Truenamer spamming Energy Vortex.

Not that it's really good, but...

Otherwise you can have an Arcane Dragon with Lingering Breath, but that's Dragon Mag content.

[Lapak]

No, such a thing wouldn't even make much sense. What would Fireball as an emanation be?
I mean, that basically exists in the PHB. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flamingSphere.htm)

[SirNibbles]

"Burst
A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures that have total cover from its point of origin—its effects don’t extend around corners. The default shape for a burst is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst’s size defines how far from the point of origin the spell’s effect extends.

Emanation
An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the magic continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.

Spread
A spread spell spreads out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell affects by taking into account any turns the spell’s magic takes." - Rules Compendium, page 135

So if says it's a burst or a spread and has a duration, it means anything caught in the initial blast is affected for the duration of the spell. Anything that enters the area later is not affected.

[Psyren]

is there a raw way to turn a burst into an emanation? Could you permanent it to a location or something like that?

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/lingering-spell-metamagic/

[MisterKaws]

I mean, that basically exists in the PHB. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flamingSphere.htm)

Not an emanation, though. For that you need Truenamer.

[Zaq]

Interestingly, a ctrl-F through the PHB shows me that none of the core spells with "emanation" in the description deal damage, even though there are spells (like ice storm) that do repeated damage in an area.

Also, MisterKaws, energy vortex is still a spread, not an emanation. It still lasts for 1 minute and deals repeated damage in an area, but all LPM utterances are defined as spreads:


Unless stated otherwise, all the utterances from this lexicon [Lexicon of the Perfected Map] affect a 20-foot-radius spread area and have a range of 100 feet.

(Emphasis and clarification about "this lexicon" added.)

Energy vortex does not specify that it is anything other than the standard 20-foot-radius spread, so it is not defined as an emanation.

Somewhat interestingly, lore of the world and shield of the landscape both call out specifically that they are 20-foot-radius spreads rather than relying on the usual lexicon-wide definition. Though to be fair, that's almost certainly because the center point of those two utterances is specified (they're both "centered on you," which is definitely different from the general definition). None of the LPM utterances contain language that make me think that they're actually emanations.

Really, the devs seem to have more or less forgotten about the distinction between bursts, spreads, and emanations much of the time. I certainly forgot about it until this topic gave me a reason to look it up. There are definitely spells that have repeated or continuous effects within their respective areas but that don't have the word "emanation" anywhere.

[MisterKaws]

Interestingly, a ctrl-F through the PHB shows me that none of the core spells with "emanation" in the description deal damage, even though there are spells (like ice storm) that do repeated damage in an area.

Also, MisterKaws, energy vortex is still a spread, not an emanation. It still lasts for 1 minute and deals repeated damage in an area, but all LPM utterances are defined as spreads:



(Emphasis and clarification about "this lexicon" added.)

Energy vortex does not specify that it is anything other than the standard 20-foot-radius spread, so it is not defined as an emanation.

Somewhat interestingly, lore of the world and shield of the landscape both call out specifically that they are 20-foot-radius spreads rather than relying on the usual lexicon-wide definition. Though to be fair, that's almost certainly because the center point of those two utterances is specified (they're both "centered on you," which is definitely different from the general definition). None of the LPM utterances contain language that make me think that they're actually emanations.

Really, the devs seem to have more or less forgotten about the distinction between bursts, spreads, and emanations much of the time. I certainly forgot about it until this topic gave me a reason to look it up. There are definitely spells that have repeated or continuous effects within their respective areas but that don't have the word "emanation" anywhere.

To be fair, Fireball is also a spread(goes around corners and through holes), so my point is still valid.

[Zaq]

With respect, I think I've lost what your point is. LPM utterances, including but not limited to energy vortex, simply aren't emanations, but the game also has plenty of effects that would seem like they should be emanations (based on their non-instantaneous and/or repeated effects in an area) that aren't emanations.

The discussion is less about bursts vs. spreads and more about emanations vs. bursts/spreads. It would be nice if the rules were consistent about how bursts and spreads didn't stick around and create "zones" (to dip into 4e parlance, recognizing that this term is not a defined game term in 3.5), but that's not the text we're working with.

I think we're basically on the same page except that energy vortex isn't an emanation and truenamers don't have unique access to the idea of repeated AoE damage (see acid fog, wall of fire, (extended) ice storm, etc.)

[SirNibbles]

Really, the devs seem to have more or less forgotten about the distinction between bursts, spreads, and emanations much of the time. I certainly forgot about it until this topic gave me a reason to look it up. There are definitely spells that have repeated or continuous effects within their respective areas but that don't have the word "emanation" anywhere.

Going to need to see some examples. Bonus points if they're actually spells and not from the Book of Speaking Weird.

Side note: A lot of spells that technically affect an area actually aren't area spells are instead 'Effect' spells. For example, Blade Barrier and Solid Fog affect an area but are not area effects.


With respect, I think I've lost what your point is. LPM utterances, including but not limited to energy vortex, simply aren't emanations, but the game also has plenty of effects that would seem like they should be emanations (based on their non-instantaneous and/or repeated effects in an area) that aren't emanations.

The discussion is less about bursts vs. spreads and more about emanations vs. bursts/spreads. It would be nice if the rules were consistent about how bursts and spreads didn't stick around and create "zones" (to dip into 4e parlance, recognizing that this term is not a defined game term in 3.5), but that's not the text we're working with.

I think we're basically on the same page except that energy vortex isn't an emanation and truenamers don't have unique access to the idea of repeated AoE damage (see acid fog, wall of fire, (extended) ice storm, etc.)

Edit: somewhat ninja'd. Like I said, some of these affect an area but aren't really Area spells.

[Zaq]

Going to need to see some examples. Bonus points if they're actually spells and not from the Book of Speaking Weird.

Side note: A lot of spells that technically affect an area actually aren't area spells are instead 'Effect' spells. For example, Blade Barrier and Solid Fog affect an area but are not area effects.



Edit: somewhat ninja'd. Like I said, some of these affect an area but aren't really Area spells.

No disagreement. The rules are also pretty inconsistent about "area" vs. "effect."

I can kinda-sorta see what they may have been going for with the idea that some spells have targets, some spells have areas, and spells that have neither targets nor areas have effects, but it got too finicky for its own good, and again, the devs don't seem to have been consistent about it across the board. You'll also notice that on pg. 175 of the PHB (which discusses exactly this), "spreads" are described both in the "Effect" section (for things like fog cloud) and in the "Area" section. Which, you know, is great and all, but I don't think it contributed to clarity.

Overall, though, the rules make surprisingly few distinctions between area spells and effect spells. It's pretty rare to need to care whether the spread created by fog cloud is part of an effect spell or part of an area spell. It's remarkably challenging to find game elements that function differently for the two. (Even Widen Spell is written in such a way that it can arguably affect a spread-shaped effect like fog cloud, though I will concede that there is room for disagreement there.) Which I think is one reason why later devs may have gotten sloppy with using the "right" keywords—they arguably didn't really need to, and it's tempting to argue that they may never have actually learned those rules!

Amusing side note: if we get really picky about the exact rules as written when it comes to bursts vs. spreads, Explosive Spell's example of an explosive fireball is dysfunctional because fireball is a spread, not a burst. The example specifies that "all creatures in the area of an explosive fireball that fail their saving throws not only take full damage but are pushed to the closest square outside the perimeter of the spell’s 20-foot-radius spread," but the feat goes on to specify that "Explosive Spell can be applied only to spells that allow Reflex saves and affect an area (a cone, cylinder, line, or burst)." (Complete Arcane, pg. 79, emphasis added.) You will notice that a spread is not a "cone, cylinder, line, or burst," so explosive fireball is not legal despite being the iconic example. The clear RAI implication, by my reading, is that bursts and spreads are basically to be treated similarly whenever possible, but either way, it's a moderately revealing dysfunction.

I guess if the argument is being made (though I'm not sure I see anyone actually making this argument?) that in order for a spell with an "area" line and not an "effect" line to have a repeated effect, it would have to be described as an emanation and not as a burst/spread, that could maybe be a thing, and it could I guess make spells like dinosaur stampede dysfunctional? But again, I don't think anyone is really making that argument.

[SirNibbles]

No disagreement. The rules are also pretty inconsistent about "area" vs. "effect."

I can kinda-sorta see what they may have been going for with the idea that some spells have targets, some spells have areas, and spells that have neither targets nor areas have effects, but it got too finicky for its own good, and again, the devs don't seem to have been consistent about it across the board. You'll also notice that on pg. 175 of the PHB (which discusses exactly this), "spreads" are described both in the "Effect" section (for things like fog cloud) and in the "Area" section. Which, you know, is great and all, but I don't think it contributed to clarity.

Overall, though, the rules make surprisingly few distinctions between area spells and effect spells. It's pretty rare to need to care whether the spread created by fog cloud is part of an effect spell or part of an area spell. It's remarkably challenging to find game elements that function differently for the two. (Even Widen Spell is written in such a way that it can arguably affect a spread-shaped effect like fog cloud, though I will concede that there is room for disagreement there.) Which I think is one reason why later devs may have gotten sloppy with using the "right" keywords—they arguably didn't really need to, and it's tempting to argue that they may never have actually learned those rules!

Amusing side note: if we get really picky about the exact rules as written when it comes to bursts vs. spreads, Explosive Spell's example of an explosive fireball is dysfunctional because fireball is a spread, not a burst. The example specifies that "all creatures in the area of an explosive fireball that fail their saving throws not only take full damage but are pushed to the closest square outside the perimeter of the spell’s 20-foot-radius spread," but the feat goes on to specify that "Explosive Spell can be applied only to spells that allow Reflex saves and affect an area (a cone, cylinder, line, or burst)." (Complete Arcane, pg. 79, emphasis added.) You will notice that a spread is not a "cone, cylinder, line, or burst," so explosive fireball is not legal despite being the iconic example. The clear RAI implication, by my reading, is that bursts and spreads are basically to be treated similarly whenever possible, but either way, it's a moderately revealing dysfunction.

I guess if the argument is being made (though I'm not sure I see anyone actually making this argument?) that in order for a spell with an "area" line and not an "effect" line to have a repeated effect, it would have to be described as an emanation and not as a burst/spread, that could maybe be a thing, and it could I guess make spells like dinosaur stampede dysfunctional? But again, I don't think anyone is really making that argument.

Yeah it's always fun to see where the devs made little mistakes that cause big arguments in the community.

With regards to Fog Cloud, the lack of an Area line could make people go either way for things like Widen Spell or Sculpt Spell. It's almost like they could've made it easy and just given all area spells an 'Area' line instead of making things needlessly confusing.

As for the last part, that's generally how I treat it unless the text of the spell clearly implies it works otherwise. Dinosaur Stampede feels like it should've been 'Effect: Spectral dinosaurs in 20 foot radius spread' just to stay consistent with the Burst/Emanation/Spread rules.

Here's an example of spells being confusing:

Kelgore's Grave Mist
Area: 20-ft. radius spread, 20 ft. high
Duration: 1 round/level
With a gesture, you create a cloud of clammy, thin mist. The light in the area seems to dim as the mist appears, and a slight wind washes over the area, sending a chill down your spine. This spell creates a thin mist within the spell's area. The mist is too thin to have any effect on vision, but the necromantic energy infused within it hampers the living. All living creatures within the mist become fatigued and take 1d6 points of cold damage per round. If the spell fails to overcome a creature's spell resistance, the subject takes the cold damage but ignores the fatigue. - Player's Handbook II, page 116

By the rules as written, it forms the mist for an instantaneous duration, at which time the effect is discharged: fatigue which is instant and cold damage per round which persists for the remaining duration of the spell. The mist doesn't stick around. So then why does it mention that the mist is too thin to have any effect on vision? That would only matter if the mist continued to stay for the duration of the spell. So is the mist meant to persist for the duration and inflict fatigue on anyone who enters it? Do you only take the cold damage if you stay in the mist?

It'd be nice if there were more clarity in regards to many such spells. It'd be simple. Shape (line, cone, cylinder, sphere, cube, etc.), Size (radius, length, etc.), Fill (Burst or Spread), and Duration (Instantaneous or Emanation). There's no ambiguity if you just explain each of those four aspects.

[MisterKaws]

With respect, I think I've lost what your point is. LPM utterances, including but not limited to energy vortex, simply aren't emanations, but the game also has plenty of effects that would seem like they should be emanations (based on their non-instantaneous and/or repeated effects in an area) that aren't emanations.

The discussion is less about bursts vs. spreads and more about emanations vs. bursts/spreads. It would be nice if the rules were consistent about how bursts and spreads didn't stick around and create "zones" (to dip into 4e parlance, recognizing that this term is not a defined game term in 3.5), but that's not the text we're working with.

I think we're basically on the same page except that energy vortex isn't an emanation and truenamers don't have unique access to the idea of repeated AoE damage (see acid fog, wall of fire, (extended) ice storm, etc.)

It was a joke. I like doing humorless jokes.

Now, moving on, the thing is, Bursts and Emanations are both equivalent to Spreads, because, for some reason, Spreads are not divided in long-lasting or instant, unlike the former two. My point was, that indeed, Energy Vortex is the "Emanation-Spread" equivalent of the "Burst-Spread" Fireball.

If someone wants to take this to Dysfunctional Rules, you're welcome to quote me.

[Dimers]

Blistering Radiance is a spread with a duration. Its wording suggests to me that the damage happens repeatedly within the area, but it could be read as happening to anyone who had been in the area originally.

[Melcar]

...Burst like Fireball...

Fireball is a spread, not a burst!