Shoot for the Moon

[Palanan]

Without resorting to Wish, Miracle, or Interplanetary Teleport, how would you send an intrepid band of explorers to the Moon?

Assume the system in question is identical to the Earth-Moon system, and that you have the resources of a reasonably prosperous fantasy nation to work with. Also assume there are no conveniently crashed alien starships that you can just patch up and point skywards—this needs to be a home-grown effort.

Given the above, how would you get your explorers to the Moon? All first-party Paizo material is fair game.

.

[Madsamurai]

Cast plane-shift, go to heaven. Take a break, see the sights. Then cast plane shift again to go to the moon.

Greater teleport used to have no range limit, but then Paizo decided that they wanted interplanetary travel to be level 9 for some reason. They forgot that planets are not special and are just points on the infinite material plane tough.

[Firebug]

In the module The Moonscar (https://paizo.com/products/btpy8ssi?Pathfinder-Module-The-Moonscar) (level 16) one of the options for travelling to the moon is to ride Shantak (https://aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Shantak)(Bestiary 2). They are only CR 8, so plausible at lower levels too.

Of course, the Moonscar is a jungle filled with demons so not exactly "identical to the Earth-Moon system".

[jintoya]

Step 1:
Enchant a boulder to never miss it's target
Step 2:
Enchant a catapult to enhance it's ammo with levitation so it never falls, enchant breaks when it hits.
Step 3:
Glue party to boulder
Step 4:
Preserve party with any "stasis" type spell that will keep them alive until the boulder hits
Step 5:
Fire boulder after aiming at the Moon
Step 6:
Suffocate when you get to the Moon

(True shot for never missing, levitation ammo has no range increment, meaning all you need is line of sight)

[Gallowglass]

Tinker Gnomes

Or better yet

Goblin Alchemists with too much time on their hands

[Segev]

Gasseous form as a command word is 1800*3*5=27,000 gp.

Fly as a continuous effect is 30,000 gp.

Create a large, enclosed, air-tight device which has fly, and which casts gasseous form on anybody or anything that enters it. Make it slotless, doubling the price, and then making the lower-level spell 75% of base cost. The market value for your flying pressurized container of variably-sapient gas is 80,250 gp. It flies at 240 ft./round (assuming its pilot takes the "run" action for its flight), or just under 28 mph. That would make it take about 355 days, or just about a year, to get to the Moon from Earth.

Being gasseous, the astronauts need nor food, water, nor replenishing air. So it's very boring, and a very long trip, but you'll get there, and for a nation? 80,250 gp isn't very much.

[zlefin]

hmmm, it'd depend on what radiation rules are in use and what other effects apply for being in outer space. As I'd need to counter those, and I'm not sure what rules would apply for that. It'd also depend on how we're applying orbital mechanics to affect you, and whether there is sufficient knowledge to take advantage of some of that stuff.

Necklace of Adaptation gives you air to breathe and protects from vacuum. Create food/water can cover the rest of sustenance. Which leaves radiation. micrometeors, and heat/cold to deal with, not sure what spells would be best for those.

You could use a lot of casting of regular teleport to slowly get close and closer to the moon. Each time going however far you can closer. It'd take many days of travel but it'd work in time.

I checked overland flight, and that would take too long, or at least annoyingly long (like a decade or something). unless there's a way to use orbital mechanics to make it go easier. But some forms of magical flight at least should work fine in the absence of air; so it's a question of how high you can get the movement speed and how long you can keep it up for. A construct or undead taking the "run" action with an eligible means of flight should make decent time; as long as the party can ride on/in it that should work (and depending on the uncertain rules issue of how those interact)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Firebig
In the module The Moonstar….

Interesting, thanks. I’ll have to give that a look.


Originally Posted by Gallowglass
Tinker Gnomes

Or better yet

Goblin Alchemists

That’s the who, still need to know the how.


Originally Posted by Segev
Gasseous form as a command word….

Interesting approach, but I don’t see anything in the text about being immune to the effects of hunger while in Gaseous Form. Since it’s ordinarily 2 min./level, it’s intended for short durations by default, so I’m not convinced this works as a bypass to hunger and other needs.


Originally Posted by zlefin
…it'd depend on what radiation rules are in use and what other effects apply for being in outer space….

It'd also depend on how we're applying orbital mechanics to affect you, and whether there is sufficient knowledge to take advantage of some of that stuff.

This is identical to our system, so radiation and other hazards would apply.

As for knowledge of orbital mechanics, that’s a good catch. There’s a roughly Newton/Kepler understanding of planetary motion, so probably the basics would be understood.

.

[Tvtyrant]

Without resorting to Wish, Miracle, or Interplanetary Teleport, how would you send an intrepid band of explorers to the Moon?

Assume the system in question is identical to the Earth-Moon system, and that you have the resources of a reasonably prosperous fantasy nation to work with. Also assume there are no conveniently crashed alien starships that you can just patch up and point skywards—this needs to be a home-grown effort.

Given the above, how would you get your explorers to the Moon? All first-party Paizo material is fair game.

.

A spaceship engine plan I made back in like 2010.

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/070/f/c/decanter_steam_rocket_by_tvtyrant-d5xrei2.png

This was for 3.5 where you could use permanency to make the walls all permanent and shape spell to give them form. You can do something similar as well even if Wall of Force is ruled to be immobile by having the engines on the ground shooting the ship from below, essentially making a water laser that pushes the ship.

[Segev]

There's also any effect which lets you go to the Ethereal Plane. I believe gravity is optional there. (I could be misremembering, though.)

A Mirror of Mental Prowess (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/m-p/mirror-of-mental-prowess/) is only 175,000 gp: scry out the surface of the moon, and step through. Use one of the adaptation spells, or a necklace of adaptation, or the like to survive the environment.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Tvtyrant
A spaceship engine plan I made back in like 2010.

That’s hilarious, and quite inventive.

The question is whether the walls of fire would heat the steam enough to develop sufficient thrust. Not sure how to calculate that, since the spell description doesn’t give any indication as to temperature. But this is certainly an option to consider.


Originally Posted by Segev
A Mirror of Mental Prowess is only 175,000 gp: scry out the surface of the moon, and step through.

Interesting, thanks. Another good option for the short list.

[Tvtyrant]

I mean, none-magical fire deals 1d6 damage per turn, specifically a bonfire. A bonfire can be anywhere from 800-1,100 degrees F, so from there a 10d6 wall of fire is in the thousands of degrees. Maximized it burns hotter then an Acetylene torch, assuming that the damage actually represents temperature. You can also highly pressurize the boiling water by closing and opening the container, allowing you to make the actual steam the temperature of the flame.

5,000F water is also a great weapon :)

[King of Nowhere]

i know it specifically says pathfinder, and I don't know how much stuff can be shared between pathfinder and 3.5.

But in 3.5, the stronghold builder book gives several rules, including for making a flying stronghold. with 40k gp you can make a room 6x6x3 meters that flies at 10 miles per hour. Enough to reach the moon in roughly three years.
airtight walls are 7500 gp, and a bottle of fresh air will renew air inside.
protection from space radiation is a bit more tricky. I'm fairly sure a prismatic wall should cover it, that would be 60k gp. A force wall would be cheaper, but I can't find its entry. Alternatively, just bring a mid level cleric on board, restoration and remove disease should cover everything radiation does to you.

the return trip is going to be much faster, because once you reach the point of gravity equilibrium (which is close to the moon, as the moon is much lighter) you can just shut down your propulsion and let earth gravity pull you down.

[AvatarVecna]

Without resorting to Wish, Miracle, or Interplanetary Teleport, how would you send an intrepid band of explorers to the Moon?

Assume the system in question is identical to the Earth-Moon system, and that you have the resources of a reasonably prosperous fantasy nation to work with. Also assume there are no conveniently crashed alien starships that you can just patch up and point skywards—this needs to be a home-grown effort.

Given the above, how would you get your explorers to the Moon? All first-party Paizo material is fair game.

.

How would I get them there, assuming any 1pp PF material is allowed? That's honestly the easy part.

Human Barbarian 2 (Mythic: Champion T2)

Str 18 from pb, +2 from human, +2 from Mythic, +4 from rage for a total of 26.

Trait:
Freedom Fighter (the improvised weapon one)

Feats:
HD 1: Point-Blank Shot
Human: Far Shot
Mythic T1: Mythic Far Shot


Rage Powers:
Lesser Hurling

Mythic Abilities:
Limitless Range
Always A Chance


While raging, you can pick up things up to one size smaller than you and throw them. You have +7 vs AC 5 of a specific square on the moon, you have no maximum range, you don't auto-miss on a natural 1, and you can spend 1 MP to ignore range increment penalties for 1 round. If you feel its necessary, you can spend an additional MP for +1d6 to account for bad circumstances, but you should be able to pick the timing for that. Get a buddy who can put Enlarge Person on you, and now you can hurl Medium targets.

...of course, this is all for just getting targets to the moon (or, y'know...wherever you can see). It doesn't help them survive once they're there...but that's not the challenge put forth.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by King of Nowhere
But in 3.5, the stronghold builder book gives several rules, including for making a flying stronghold. with 40k gp you can make a room 6x6x3 meters that flies at 10 miles per hour. Enough to reach the moon in roughly three years.

Actually the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook is 3.0 material, published in 2002. But I'm certainly willing to take suggestions from 3.0/3.5 material, although the context will be Pathfinder.

That said, three years is a long, long time to spend in a small chamber with several other people. Unless there's a hibernation spell that I'm forgetting, this could pose some serious challenges.

[Maat Mons]

In 3.5, a sufficiently determined Warforged with a magical means of flight suffices. Have him carry half a set of Planar Ring Gates, and you've got an easy way for anyone and everyone to follow.

In Pathfinder, once you get someone to the moon, and keep them there long enough to become "very familiar" with it, They can use Create Demiplane to make a permanent Gate to the moon, and another casting to create a permanent Gate to Earth. Then all future travelers just have to make a short trek through your personal demiplane. Set up a toll booth.

[SirNibbles]

There's literally a book on how to do this: De la Terre à la Lune. Just build a giant cannon and shoot it at the moon.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Maat Mons
In 3.5, a sufficiently determined Warforged with a magical means of flight suffices. Have him carry half a set of Planar Ring Gates, and you've got an easy way for anyone and everyone to follow.

O gawd. It’s Big Hero 6 in space.

:smalltongue:


Originally Posted by Maat Mons
In Pathfinder, once you get someone to the moon….

This being the question.

[Maat Mons]

You were unhappy with how long the trip would take with some of the methods that have already been proposed. So I'm giving you way to make a minion do all the time-intensive stuff, while you have fun at home and swoop in at the end to reap the benefits.

[AvatarVecna]

My method was a 5/day "gets them to the moon in 1 round". I hope it was fast enough. :smalltongue:

[zlefin]

one of the basic problems is that the DnD system is largely not designed to handle velocity; especially in an environment like space, the rules simply aret' equipped to adjudicate or cover a lot of key questions. so we don't know which forms of movement would actually change velocity.

[ekarney]

Goblin Alchemists with too much time on their hands

Terrifying. Thinking about Goblins sending someone to the moon via potion leaps directly through the realm of fantasy horror, right past cosmic horror, and leaves us in the realm of unknowable horror that is simply not able to be processed by the minds of mere mortals.

Now that's another scary thought - Goblin Alienists.

Onto the actual topic though. Since you've stated that radiation will be in effect can we also see things like terminal reentry? How would you be ruling radiation? Damage per round? Saving allowed?

[RNightstalker]

A Cleric can fly up into the atmosphere, cast Footsteps of the Divine, Persist it, and then use the burst function of the spell which should give you enough to break orbit.

Will this be expanded to surviving on the moon?

[JNAProductions]

A Cleric can fly up into the atmosphere, cast Footsteps of the Divine, Persist it, and then use the burst function of the spell which should give you enough to break orbit.

Will this be expanded to surviving on the moon?

You cannot Persist a dischargeable spell.
And does Persist spell exist in PF?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by zlefin
one of the basic problems is that the DnD system is largely not designed to handle velocity; especially in an environment like space, the rules simply aret' equipped to adjudicate or cover a lot of key questions.

Very true. It seems like 3.P isn’t very good at handling three-dimensional atmospheric flight, much less interplanetary transit.


Originally Posted by ekarney
Since you've stated that radiation will be in effect can we also see things like terminal reentry? How would you be ruling radiation?

Good questions, and the fact is I haven’t looked into Pathfinder’s radiation rules just yet. For now, assume that the situation is identical to our Earth-Moon system, including the Van Allen belts, cosmic radiation and other natural sources.


Originally Posted by RNightstalker
A Cleric can fly up into the atmosphere, cast Footsteps of the Divine, Persist it, and then use the burst function of the spell which should give you enough to break orbit.

Thanks, but the details of the spell suggest that this won’t work. The flight it grants is dependent on having physical wings, and at best they won’t carry you more than a few hundred feet above the ground. The “burst function” only gives an additional 10 feet to your fly speed.

Even if Persist worked, the wings would be useless above LEO, and of course there’s the travel time to consider. I appreciate the suggestion, but this doesn’t look feasible.


Originally Posted by JNAProductions
And does Persist spell exist in PF?

Not as such. It can be ported from 3.5, but there’s no official Pathfinder version.

[RNightstalker]

You cannot Persist a dischargeable spell.
And does Persist spell exist in PF?

Thanks for the heads up, always glossed over that part of the description.

[RNightstalker]

Thanks, but the details of the spell suggest that this won’t work. The flight it grants is dependent on having physical wings, and at best they won’t carry you more than a few hundred feet above the ground. The “burst function” only gives an additional 10 feet to your fly speed.

Even if Persist worked, the wings would be useless above LEO, and of course there’s the travel time to consider. I appreciate the suggestion, but this doesn’t look feasible.

You don't need it to grant flight if you already have it from another source, say a Phoenix Cloak. There are options that just increase the speed you already have. The burst function gives an additional 10 feet to your speed per round remaining, hence the possibility of boosting your speed by the number of rounds in a day x 10...too bad Persistent Spell doesn't work on that spell.

[icefractal]

It's almost too straightforward, but Space Whales (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/oma/). 200' fly speed to get you into orbit, and then explicitly has starflight.

How to get one? Maybe go to another plane and Gate it in. Or just scry on one, get an accurate picture, and then use Simulacrum or make a Trompe l'Oeil. The last of those has the advantage that your space-ship can hold up and fit in your pocket, as well as not needing to eat (presumably they already don't need to breathe).

For doing it without that specific creature, I'd go with a Trompe l'Oeil of a fast dragon. Sky Dragons reach a speed of 250', and as a construct it could keep running all the time. 113 mph is still pretty slow in space terms, but it there may be ways to boost it. The astronauts ride in the stomach obviously.

Edit: For winged flight in space, you may need a Necklace of Adaptation or something similar to create air.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by RNightstalker
*Phoenix Cloak*

Just for the record, your first two paragraphs should be in quote format. :smallsmile:

The Phoenix Cloak is interesting, except for the clause where you have to be reduced below 0 hp to gain the flight speed via polymorph into a fire elemental. It’s a nice image, but that could cause other issues.

Even if you swing that, adding an extra 50 feet of fly speed doesn’t get you much of an improvement. By my extremely rough calculations, the theoretical Persisted Footsteps of the Divine would get you 70 feet per round tops, which should take about three years to reach the Moon. With another 50 feet of speed, that brings you there in two years.

So, not ideal. That could work for warforged or some sort of clockwork entity (nimblewright, etc.) but not as good for humanoids.


Originally Posted by icefractal
It's almost too straightforward, but Space Whales.

Ah, yes...I’d forgotten about the oma. They wouldn’t be available planetside, but catching and taming one would certainly make for a solid adventure all on its own.


Originally Posted by icefractal
Or just scry on one, get an accurate picture, and then use Simulacrum….

That would be a really big ice sculpture. :smalltongue:

Also, since this is an Illusion (Shadow) spell, I’m not sure how the “partially real” aspect would interact with completely real hazards like radiation. It’s an interesting idea, though.


Originally Posted by icefractal
Edit: For winged flight in space, you may need a Necklace of Adaptation or something similar to create air.

Yeah, I’m assuming items like this, rings of sustenance, etc. for long-duration spaceflight. It’s the mental and emotional issues that are more difficult to deal with, such as the utter tedium and isolation of spending three years staring at the Moon.

.

[RNightstalker]

Just for the record, your first two paragraphs should be in quote format. :smallsmile:

The Phoenix Cloak is interesting, except for the clause where you have to be reduced below 0 hp to gain the flight speed via polymorph into a fire elemental. It’s a nice image, but that could cause other issues.

Even if you swing that, adding an extra 50 feet of fly speed doesn’t get you much of an improvement. By my extremely rough calculations, the theoretical Persisted Footsteps of the Divine would get you 70 feet per round tops, which should take about three years to reach the Moon. With another 50 feet of speed, that brings you there in two years.

So, not ideal. That could work for warforged or some sort of clockwork entity (nimblewright, etc.) but not as good for humanoids.



Ah, yes...I’d forgotten about the oma. They wouldn’t be available planetside, but catching and taming one would certainly make for a solid adventure all on its own.



That would be a really big ice sculpture. :smalltongue:

Also, since this is an Illusion (Shadow) spell, I’m not sure how the “partially real” aspect would interact with completely real hazards like radiation. It’s an interesting idea, though.



Yeah, I’m assuming items like this, rings of sustenance, etc. for long-duration spaceflight. It’s the mental and emotional issues that are more difficult to deal with, such as the utter tedium and isolation of spending three years staring at the Moon.

.

Sorry, tried to delete out what I wasn't replying to and it didn't work. So please forgive my lack of quotes.

I was also referring to the MIC version of the Phoenix Cloak.

Also, the duration of Footsteps of the Divine is rds/cl, so I don't know how you only got a 70 ft bonus.
Holding on to the nice idea, if that spell was actually persistable, one could move faster than the speed of light.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by RNightstalker
I was also referring to the MIC version of the Phoenix Cloak.

Okay. That’s certainly less troublesome, but with an average land speed of 30 feet, that extends flight time to eight years.

Someone please check my math, I could be way off.


Originally Posted by RNightstalker
Holding on to the nice idea, if that spell was actually persistable, one could move faster than the speed of light.

…?

[JNAProductions]

Okay. That’s certainly less troublesome, but with an average land speed of 30 feet, that extends flight time to eight years.

Someone please check my math, I could be way off.

…?

Yeah, FTL is 5,901,426,340 feet per round.

Footsteps of the Divine gets you...

144,000 feet bonus speed.

[icefractal]

That's only about 2x faster than just using it normally though, unless you can swing multiple casts a day. It's a good boost, but ultra-speed for six seconds doesn't give you ultra miles per day.

Unless you bring momentum into it, and involving physics would make that usage of the spell rather deadly.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by JNAProductions
Footsteps of the Divine gets you...

144,000 feet bonus speed.

Can you run through that math for me?

[JNAProductions]

Can you run through that math for me?

10 rounds a minute.
60 minutes an hour.
24 hours a day.
10' bonus speed per round.
Multiply it all out.

[Palanan]

Okay, thanks.

That's presuming it's Persisted, which won't work for a couple of reasons already mentioned, as well as the issue with wings in a vacuum. Could be fun in a typical adventuring environment, though.

[Spore]

Bind a creature with "Greater Teleport, except only items". Cast Flesh to Stone on self after giving said outsider a scroll of Stone to Flesh. Teleport to the moon.

Die. You never said SURVIVE on the moon :smallamused:

[Palanan]

So, thanks to everyone for the ideas thus far.

At this point I should probably separate the potential solutions into two broad categories:

1. Individual flight. How many speed enhancements can be applied to a single individual, such that its travel time through vacuum is reduced as much as possible? Assume that only flight modes which operate in a vacuum are available, i.e., no physical wings.

2. Creature/Vessel flight. What sorts of creatures or vessels could be trained or built to carry several individuals at once, and what speeds could they achieve? Same assumption about flight in a vacuum.



(Portals make up a third category, and they pose challenges of their own, so I’d prefer to set those aside for now.)

.

[Mongobear]

Necklace of Adaptation, Ring of Sustenance, Ioun Stone for Breathing(forget the name), a permanent flight speed.

It may take them months/years to get there, but it'll work.

[JMS]

Alright, so we can use a teleport or something to get to the upper atmosphere. Start flying, but you have continuous items of different telekinesis effects all over, and activate them all. You now have a small, constant amount of thrust. Wait, possibly with some type of dreamscape/hibernation spell.

[RNightstalker]

So, thanks to everyone for the ideas thus far.

At this point I should probably separate the potential solutions into two broad categories:

1. Individual flight. How many speed enhancements can be applied to a single individual, such that its travel time through vacuum is reduced as much as possible? Assume that only flight modes which operate in a vacuum are available, i.e., no physical wings.

2. Creature/Vessel flight. What sorts of creatures or vessels could be trained or built to carry several individuals at once, and what speeds could they achieve? Same assumption about flight in a vacuum.



(Portals make up a third category, and they pose challenges of their own, so I’d prefer to set those aside for now.)

.

For category #2, Halruuan Skyship and persisted Gust of Wind?

[Maat Mons]

Alright, my proposed "ship" is a small gem. How do you get someone inside a small gem? By casting Trap the Soul. How do they get out once on the moon? The gem just has to hit hard enough to break when it lands.

[Psychoalpha]

2. Creature/Vessel flight. What sorts of creatures or vessels could be trained or built to carry several individuals at once, and what speeds could they achieve? Same assumption about flight in a vacuum.


Make friends and/or enslave an Outer Dragon of your choice.


Starflight (Su)

In outer space, an outer dragon can survive in the void and fly at incredible speed. Travel times vary, but a trip within a single solar system should take 3d20 hours, and a trip beyond should take 3d20 days or more if the dragon knows the way to its destination. An outer dragon can carry one rider of one size category smaller than itself, four passengers two sizes smaller, eight passengers three sizes smaller, or 16 passengers four or more sizes smaller. Passengers are protected from the void of outer space.

Really this applies to anything with the Starflight ability, but Outer Dragons are the only ones I saw with specific mention of carrying riders who are protected from the void of outer space (which is a somewhat ambiguous term that should probably include vacuum, radiation, and temperature effects particular to 'the void of outer space', like Endure Elements for space).

[Tvtyrant]

There is also Spelljammer, which gives you spaceships and spacewhales.

[Palanan]

Okay, two ideas I wanted to follow up on:




Originally Posted by RNightstalker
*Pathfinder Phoenix Cloak*

This has really caught my imagination, because I love the idea of transforming into a fiery bird and flying to the Moon.

That particular item has its issues, as mentioned above. But is there some other way of transforming into a fire elemental, perhaps through an archetype or PrC, which can be sustained for long durations?

Obviously a druid can do this, but I’d like to have other methods to work with.


Originally Posted by Tvtyrant
A spaceship engine plan I made back in like 2010.

This one is also sticking with me. I’m willing to buy that the wall(s) of flame would produce superheated steam; the question is how much thrust it would develop.

Did you ever do the calculations on that? A steam-powered spaceship has its merits.

[Maat Mons]

If I did the math right, a Decanter of Endless Water without a heat source produces enough thrust to lift itself plus 4 pounds of cargo. Not sure how to factor in steam.

[Arutema]

Alright, my proposed "ship" is a small gem. How do you get someone inside a small gem? By casting Trap the Soul. How do they get out once on the moon? The gem just has to hit hard enough to break when it lands.

Doesn't breaking the gem simply send the soul to the Boneyard?

[Maat Mons]

You might be thinking of Soul Bind?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Maat Mons
If I did the math right, a Decanter of Endless Water without a heat source produces enough thrust to lift itself plus 4 pounds of cargo.

Interesting. But this would require 50 decanters, at a total cost of nearly half a million gp, to lift one person with a total weight of 200 pounds. And there’s still the question of travel time.


Originally Posted by Arutema
Doesn't breaking the gem simply send the soul to the Boneyard?


Originally Posted by Trap the Soul
The gem holds the trapped entity indefinitely or until the gem is broken and the life force is released, which allows the material body to reform.

So for this option, we need a massdriver that can accelerate gemstones. And some way to decelerate just before impact, so the freshly reformed material body isn't immediately killed by rebounding high-velocity gemstone shrapnel.

[JMS]

So for this option, we need a massdriver that can accelerate gemstones. And some way to decelerate just before impact, so the freshly reformed material body isn't immediately killed by rebounding high-velocity gemstone shrapnel.
Alright, this is decently easy, just a use activated Breath of life Tattoo.

[Friv]

There's also any effect which lets you go to the Ethereal Plane. I believe gravity is optional there. (I could be misremembering, though.)


I was messing with this, but the big problem with this plan is that when you go Ethereal, your speed halves. I had an idea for an Animated Object that can turn ethereal and fly people to the moon, but I just couldn't get it fast enough to do so reasonably.

[Tvtyrant]

This one is also sticking with me. I’m willing to buy that the wall(s) of flame would produce superheated steam; the question is how much thrust it would develop.

Did you ever do the calculations on that? A steam-powered spaceship has its merits.

I went back any reread the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?177571-Decanter-of-Endless-Water-Rune-1-quot-Riverine-Nozzle-5-Space-Shuttle-Thrust), and now I retract my thinking of it (it has been 9 years, sue me.)

There are some (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?81044-Can-she-do-this-with-a-Decanter)earlier threads on the subject.

I'm no great engineer, but looking at the Skycycle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skycycle_X-2#Snake_River_Canyon)or the designs for nuclear steam rocket (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skycycle_X-2#Snake_River_Canyon). The latter is actually the best rocket design for velocity we have come up with, "One design would generate 13 meganewtons of thrust at 66 km/s exhaust velocity (compared to ~4.5 km/s exhaust velocity for the best chemical rockets of today)." Someone smarter then me needs to do the math on that, but I don't think the water can be made hot enough for an open chamber. Simply forcing more water into the chamber then can come out and using a very wide nozzle seems more effective, the walls of fire are superfluous until the temperature is preposterously hot.

[Maat Mons]

I'm trying to run the math, and the figure I'm coming up with for the energy required to boil water as fast as it comes out is over 600 MW per decanter

[Tvtyrant]

I'm trying to run the math, and the figure I'm coming up with for the energy required to boil water as fast as it comes out is over 600 MW per decanter

The compression of the water should also raise its temperature, since we can break thermodynamics and riverine/walls of force don't allow heat transfer. If there is more water going in from the decanters then goes out through the nozzle the internal temperature should rise steadily until the engine becomes a black hole (a few billion years later.)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Tvtyrant
If there is more water going in from the decanters then goes out through the nozzle the internal temperature should rise steadily until the engine becomes a black hole (a few billion years later.)

This is actually a concern of mine--that the temperature will increase to the point that the decanters are destroyed. Presumably they can take heat damage like anything else.

Also, heat may be transferred back through the decanters to the Elemental Plane of Water (if that's where the decanters are linked), which could attract all sorts of attention.

[Tvtyrant]

This is actually a concern of mine--that the temperature will increase to the point that the decanters are destroyed. Presumably they can take heat damage like anything else.

Also, heat may be transferred back through the decanters to the Elemental Plane of Water (if that's where the decanters are linked), which could attract all sorts of attention.

The weirdest but most straightforward way would be to make the decanters living beings, then make them immune to fire damage.

Alternatively you can do something similar without all the fire and water stuff by making self-resetting traps of Reverse Gravity. Now the ship will simply accelerate away from the planet, then turn it off when you have enough momentum. That also deals with the breaking, turn it back on when you are close enough to the other planet so you reach equilibrium before you crash.

Edit: Which could have some weird effects, now that I think about it. If you RG twice do you return to normal gravity? Do they oppose each other and you just float in place?

If they work appropriately you could make a use activated helm, so it flies upwards as long as you have someone captaining it.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Alternatively you can do something similar without all the fire and water stuff by making self-resetting traps of Reverse Gravity. Now the ship will simply accelerate away from the planet, then turn it off when you have enough momentum. That also deals with the breaking, turn it back on when you are close enough to the other planet so you reach equilibrium before you crash.

Wait, just had a thought. Does reverse gravity actually impose earth-standard gravity (but in the opposite direction) or does it do what the name of the spell suggests and reverse the existing gravity? If the latter, it's utility is limited the weaker the gravity is at your location.

[Tvtyrant]

Wait, just had a thought. Does reverse gravity actually impose earth-standard gravity (but in the opposite direction) or does it do what the name of the spell suggests and reverse the existing gravity? If the latter, it's utility is limited the weaker the gravity is at your location.

I think it just reverses the gravity you are in, but it is a great unknown as D&D had different plans for spaceships.

[Maat Mons]

I've been trying to figure out a plausible reason why you couldn't just double-planeshift to the moon. Here's the only one I've got: the universe is one big dead magic zone, and the Earth is a tiny, anomalous ball of regular-magic-zone.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Maat Mons
I've been trying to figure out a plausible reason why you couldn't just double-planeshift to the moon.

Plane Shift can drop you up to 500 miles from your target point, which isn’t good if you’re aiming for a specific site.

I’m assuming that any lunar expedition would have specific objectives and a specific landing site chosen to meet those objectives. Missing that site by several hundred miles would not only endanger the mission objectives, it could also expose the expedition to unknown hazards while trying to reach the target site.

[Segev]

Plane Shift can drop you up to 500 miles from your target point, which isn’t good if you’re aiming for a specific site.

I’m assuming that any lunar expedition would have specific objectives and a specific landing site chosen to meet those objectives. Missing that site by several hundred miles would not only endanger the mission objectives, it could also expose the expedition to unknown hazards while trying to reach the target site.

"Travel 500 miles to your destination" vs. "travel hundreds of thousands of miles to your destination" seems like one is a lot less risky than the other.

[Tvtyrant]

Ships can carry gigantically more cargo, which was the argument Spelljammer made for them. Having to repeatedly plane shift to the planet and then walk will take longer than hauling a big load once and back.

Also having ships in orbit is a strategic advantage.

[zlefin]

Plane Shift can drop you up to 500 miles from your target point, which isn’t good if you’re aiming for a specific site.

I’m assuming that any lunar expedition would have specific objectives and a specific landing site chosen to meet those objectives. Missing that site by several hundred miles would not only endanger the mission objectives, it could also expose the expedition to unknown hazards while trying to reach the target site.

you can aim 500 miles above your target, then you just have to go down to land. and the space hazards apply the same either way, so you'd need to have dealt with those anyways. Getting in to land would be easy from that distance though, regular overland flight would cut it.

On another note: feather fall is a potential help for some plans. With no significant limit to velocity in space, if we can find a good way to accelerate under the rules, you can keep accelerating til you're making good time; then use feather fall to brake once you get close. doesn't matter if your'e going 20 miles/second, feather fall still works, probably (I guess there's a rules question as to whether feather fall should stop velocity that was acquired by means other than gravity)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Segev
"Travel 500 miles to your destination" vs. "travel hundreds of thousands of miles to your destination" seems like one is a lot less risky than the other.

Correct. Traveling hundreds of thousands of miles through vacuum, with a handful of known dangers and clear sight in all directions, presents less risk than traveling through hundreds of miles of unknown terrain populated by unknown hazards.

:smallsmile:

Of course there are risks involved all around, but there’s no sense adding more risk by appearing in a random location at a random distance from where you’re trying to get to.

Also, other planes have their own hazards and their own inhabitants, which are likely to create complications of their own. There’s no guarantee the expedition wouldn’t suffer damage on their first trip out, and if they’re planning on making repeated journeys, they might end up plane-shifting right into an ambush.


Originally Posted by zlefin
you can aim 500 miles above your target, then you just have to go down to land.

If the expedition is going to be landing from orbit, they’ll need a method of reliable flight anyway, which raises the question of why they’re dabbling in plane-shifting and all its attendant hazards.

Don’t get me wrong, I see the points in favor of plane-shifting. But I’m looking at this from the mission planners’ perspective, and they would want to control variables and reduce risk as much as possible.


Originally Posted by Tvtyrant
Having to repeatedly plane shift to the planet and then walk will take longer than hauling a big load once and back.

This exactly. And for repeated visits to the same site, Plane Shift is begging for trouble, because each time you’ll be appearing at a different random distance and direction from your target. It’s the exact opposite of systematic exploration, and potentially exposes you to new dangers every time.


Originally Posted by zlefin
On another note: feather fall is a potential help for some plans.

This is interesting, although as you point out there are some potential complications.

A narrow ruling would be that Feather Fall only counters acceleration due to a single gravity well, without affecting the acceleration gained from other sources. The spell is explicitly restricted to “free-falling objects,” and creatures moving under their own power are specifically disallowed from its effects.

Also, Feather Fall is intended for velocities in the feet/second range, so it’s an open question whether it could really handle velocities on the order of miles per second. But this doesn’t mean that a higher-level spell couldn’t be developed to provide the same effects for a controlled descent—although again, at this point a vessel, creature or other flight mode might end up being more practical.

.

[Segev]

Correct. Traveling hundreds of thousands of miles through vacuum, with a handful of known dangers and clear sight in all directions, presents less risk than traveling through hundreds of miles of unknown terrain populated by unknown hazards.

:smallsmile:

Of course there are risks involved all around, but there’s no sense adding more risk by appearing in a random location at a random distance from where you’re trying to get to.

Also, other planes have their own hazards and their own inhabitants, which are likely to create complications of their own. There’s no guarantee the expedition wouldn’t suffer damage on their first trip out, and if they’re planning on making repeated journeys, they might end up plane-shifting right into an ambush.

Double plane shift won't leave you on the foreign plane for too long, and you're probably picking one for ease of habitability. We were told to assume the same lunar configuration as Earth; if the moon of this world has unknown hazards beyond "vacuum and terrain," that changes things. But with the stated assumptions, 500 miles is less dangerous than hundreds of thousands of miles. Some fly spells or Brooms of Flying or even Flying Carpets would enable getting a high enough vantage on the moon to locate your target zone. And this assumes the first expedition has a target otehr than "find a spot to build a base." Sure, later expeditions need to find that base, but a tall tower will provide a lot of visibility in the vacuum of the moon.


I still think my suggestion of a Mirror of Mental Prowess is the best solution. Find your favorite means of surviving vacuum (necklace of adaptation at least provides air and pressure around your head, though, the risk of boiling blood is a thing), and just send people back and forth as easily as walking through a door.

Edit: I should note there are two ways to treat the portal created by the Mirror.

The portal allows anything deliberately passed through - or knocked through or the like - to pass, but maintains a barrier against environmental changes. Opening it on the Elemental Plane of Fire keeps the inferno on the other side of the glass (and likewise keeps the relatively cold air of the Prime Material from chilling the flames). Opening it onto the bottom of the ocean gives you an aquarium-like view, and fish who swim through flop onto the ground, but the water only comes back if you deliberately bring it (by, say, going over there and opening a test tube to collect some). So opening it onto the moon lets you look through to the moon just fine, staying comfortably in your home environment on this side of the glass, but stepping through immediately exposes you to hard vacuum.
The portal is an open doorway, and environmental conditions pass right through. I won't go into it for the other scenarios, but for the moon, this would cause an immediate suction from the difference in pressure. Massive and catastrophic if you don't limit it in some fashion. However, if let go indefinitely, equilibrium would be reached. Also, gravity would mean that there is a "slope" on the moon towards the portal, due to greater gravity on the "earth" side. So you'd wind up with an initial windstorm howling out, but eventually the gravitational pull of Earth would pull the atmosphere in, stabilized near the mirror at the pressure level on the "earth" side. Then, you'd get moon dust that is no longer being blasted away by vacuum-cleaner-force winds falling "down slope" towards the mirror portal, and piling through until that reached a steady state heap. Going through would be a climb up a fairly steep slope, but would be doable, and for a short distance around the mirror would even be like being on the "earth" side, pressure-wise. You'd just reach high-altitude pressures very quickly and be able to "climb" into effective vacuum eventually.

I actually think the first is the better way to handle it for the Mirror of Mental Prowess in general, though the second is more amusing for exploring the moon.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Segev
Double plane shift won't leave you on the foreign plane for too long….

But it does expose you to unknown and unpredictable hazards, which from the misson planners’ perspective would introduce an unacceptable degree of risk.


Originally Posted by Segev
…if the moon of this world has unknown hazards beyond "vacuum and terrain," that changes things.

Point being, the expedition won’t know exactly what the hazards will be, so they’ll want to limit their surface excursions to the area of the target zone. An unplanned journey across hundreds of miles presents too much exposure and too much additional risk.


Originally Posted by Segev
I still think my suggestion of a Mirror of Mental Prowess is the best solution.

Thank you. As I mentioned, it’s on my short list.

[Segev]

But it does expose you to unknown and unpredictable hazards, which from the misson planners’ perspective would introduce an unacceptable degree of risk. Eh, no more than the others, in my view, but if you think others make for more fun, go for them!



Thank you. As I mentioned, it’s on my short list.

You're welcome. I edited in some discussion of it in my last post, too.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Segev
I should note there are two ways to treat the portal created by the Mirror.

Thanks for the analysis on this. Very interesting in both cases, and very helpful.


Originally Posted by Maat Mons
I'm trying to run the math….

Did you have any more math on the steam-rocket concept?

[Maat Mons]

Well, if precise planar travel is required, Gate has that covered. And if you need a guaranteed-safe intermediary plane, the Create Demiplane line of spells lets you just make one.

As an added bonus, even if air gets sucked through portals, a demiplane of finite size acts as a sort of air lock, provided you don't have two Gates active at the same time.

On the subject of known/unknown dangers, do the mission planners know that space is a radiation-filled vacuum? If not, their first few attempts are going to go badly.

Bear in mind, I'm no rocket scientist, but since turning water into steam makes it expand by 1600x, I think that would translate into 1600x the thrust. So, like, almost 10,000 pounds of thrust from one decanter?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Maat Mons
…Gate has that covered.

I’ve been looking at Gate as part of the creation process for a Mirror of Mental Prowess. For now the mission planners will be considering this as an option for later phases of lunar exploration.


Originally Posted by Maat Mons
On the subject of known/unknown dangers, do the mission planners know that space is a radiation-filled vacuum? If not, their first few attempts are going to go badly.

This is an extremely good question. I’m assuming that there will be a series of divinations that should reveal some basic facts about the interplanetary medium and its hazards.

Otherwise, yes, there will be some hard lessons learned.

[Rynjin]

Cast plane-shift, go to heaven. Take a break, see the sights. Then cast plane shift again to go to the moon.

Greater teleport used to have no range limit, but then Paizo decided that they wanted interplanetary travel to be level 9 for some reason. They forgot that planets are not special and are just points on the infinite material plane tough.

No, they never added a range limit to Greater Teleport, leaving Interplanetary Teleport as a pointless spell. Well, not entirely; it lets you teleport to places without even a true description, and increase sthe vagueness + guarantees safe landing.

So the easiest answer to OP's question is simply "Cast Air Bubble (or Planetary Adaptation), cast Greater Teleport".