If you gave ToB maneuvers to barbarians how would you do it?

[tedcahill2]

Was thinking of giving barbarians access to all Tiger Claw maneuvers and stances as a simple way to give a martial class more to work with. How would you handle the number of readied maneuvers they have? I was inclined to let them simply have them all ready, but limit their use per encounter sort of like spells per day, and give them no recharge option. Unlike normal ToB classes, since they'd have the entire Tiger Claw discipline all the time they wouldn't retrain their low level abilities into higher level ones. So saying you have 4 1st level per day and 3 2nd per day etc, seems like it would work.

[Tvtyrant]

In that case I would probably have them know the whole school, but only refresh on activating a rage. Fights tend towards being short on rounds in 3.5, so they are likely only going to be using 3-4 strikes anyway.

[Mato]

Q: If you gave ToB maneuvers to barbarians how would you do it?
A: By drawing a line through the word barbarian and replacing it with "warblade".

There are a dozen ways to obtain rage or rage-like effects. Pragmatically, it's easier to to understand, explain, and use use a warblade that just picks up rage and calls him self a barbarian than it is to reinvent the barbarian class's list of class features so it's more like the spellcasting wizard class casting maneuvers from the martial classes instead of spells.

[tedcahill2]

Q: If you gave ToB maneuvers to barbarians how would you do it?
A: By drawing a line through the word barbarian and replacing it with "warblade".

There are a dozen ways to obtain rage or rage-like effects. Pragmatically, it's easier to to understand, explain, and use use a warblade that just picks up rage and calls him self a barbarian than it is to reinvent the barbarian class's list of class features so it's more like the spellcasting wizard class casting maneuvers from the martial classes instead of spells.

This is just categorically incorrect as far as I'm concerned. Yeah there are other ways to pick up rage but the war blade has a totally different feel and skill set than the primitive barbarian archetype. Case in point, many of the Warblade's abilities give bonuses based on their intelligence, which Barbarian's have little to none of.

[upho]

Here's how I'd do it. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/dreamscarred-press-barbarian-archetypes/primal-disciple-barbarian-archetype) In most games and generally speaking, both the base class and this particular archetype is far superior to the 3.5 version, including in terms of balance. Particularly access to rage powers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers) (which include several great options and may grant some much needed variety and versatility) and of course Path of War maneuvers makes it a lot more interesting than Paizo versions, and leagues ahead of the 3.5 counterpart.

And while at it, I'd import the Dragon Fury (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/prestige-classes/dragon-fury/) PrC as well, giving players of the initiating barb an interesting option.

If sticking with the inferior ToB disciplines is important (which I certainly understand), I'd simply replace the disciplines the above archetype gets access to. Probably by adding Stone Dragon and Iron Heart to Tiger Claw, but I can see arguments for other disciplines.

[tedcahill2]

Here's how I'd do it. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/dreamscarred-press-barbarian-archetypes/primal-disciple-barbarian-archetype) In most games and generally speaking, both the base class and this particular archetype is far superior to the 3.5 version, including in terms of balance. Particularly access to rage powers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers) (which include several great options and may grant some much needed variety and versatility) and of course Path of War maneuvers makes it a lot more interesting than Paizo versions, and leagues ahead of the 3.5 counterpart.

And while at it, I'd import the Dragon Fury (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/prestige-classes/dragon-fury/) PrC as well, giving players of the initiating barb an interesting option.

If sticking with the inferior ToB disciplines is important (which I certainly understand), I'd simply replace the disciplines the above archetype gets access to. Probably by adding Stone Dragon and Iron Heart to Tiger Claw, but I can see arguments for other disciplines.

If I bought every book that people said "this does it better" I'd be broke. I appreciate the suggestion but I'm not shelling out $15 for a book that I may or may not want to use.

[Seerow]

If I bought every book that people said "this does it better" I'd be broke. I appreciate the suggestion but I'm not shelling out $15 for a book that I may or may not want to use.
But it's all available free online at the links he gave...

[zlefin]

offhand, my first idea would be to essentially give them the martial study feat a bunch of times (restricted to whatever disciplinse are allowed, I might allow stone dragon and desert wind for them in addition to tiger claw). So they'd have a modest list of abilities to use, and at first level it'd basically be just the one. Then they just have the normal once/encounter as is typical of maneuvers.

[ChaosStar]

But it's all available free online at the links he gave...

Some people, like me, prefer having the book. I'll use online stuff, but I'd rather have the book to look through myself.

[upho]

If I bought every book that people said "this does it better" I'd be broke. I appreciate the suggestion but I'm not shelling out $15 for a book that I may or may not want to use.As Seerow mentioned, you don't need to pay anything (other than your ISP) to use this archetype in your game, along with all other player material and monsters published by Paizo plus a large majority of the best stuff published by Dreamscarred Press (such as PoW) and other 3PP. And I sincerely believe that using this archetype will save you a bit of work and give far more satisfactory results.

IME, most players also find it to be a great benefit to have everything gathered in one searchable database, rather than scattered in splats, adventures, setting books, web articles and whatnot. I personally find myself using d20pfsrd.com (and Archives of Nethys (https://aonprd.com/) for everything by Paizo) far more often than the physical books or pdfs, despite owning those I frequently use.

That said, it may for example be that you and/or your players aren't up for learning new material at the moment, and would therefore prefer using the 3.5 barb and ToB with as minor changes as possible. If that's the case, I suggest you simply give the barb access to two or three disciplines of the player's choice at 1st, chosen from among say Stone Dragon, Iron Heart, Tiger Claw and Desert Wind, and the Warblade's maneuvers known and readied progression. When it comes to recovering, the easiest is probably going with 1/rage (ie 1/encounter) as Tvtyrant suggested, but if you want recovery to be an option, I'd grant them full round recovery along with a suitable benefit. A stack of temporary hp (Con mod + 2 x level?) and some kind of active defense seems fitting, perhaps having enemies attacking the barb provoking during the full round action. Another fitting option could be to simply let them recover 1 maneuver the first time in an encounter they reduce an enemy to 0 hp or less (as a none-action), maybe increasing to twice per encounter at 7th and to two recovered maneuvers per kill at 14th.

And speaking of the Warblade, I absolutely agree that it has a very different feel and skill set than the barb and would make for a poor substitute.

[tedcahill2]

But it's all available free online at the links he gave...

Sorry, I didn't realize that link provided that full mechanics from the book. If I'm being honest I still don't really get it. Sometimes it's much easier to have the book because it lays things out in logical (usually) order for you to read. Clicking from link to link and trying to put it all together is proving... difficult.

[upho]

Clicking from link to link and trying to put it all together is proving... difficult.Especially in this particular case I can understand that it may become confusing, the base class being found on its own page, the archetype on a second page, the maneuver progression on a third and rage powers on a fourth. And on top of that you have all the usual separate pages for disciplines, feats, items, etc. Multiple tabs are highly recommended.

[Prime32]

The crusader's maneuver progression is the closest to barbarian fluff-wise - not driven by memorisation like the swordsage or by creating opportunities like the warblade, but by following their instincts in the heat of the moment. For a barbarian, Tiger Claw + Stone Dragon + Iron Heart seems like an appropriate set of disciplines.

To reflect how rage clouds the mind, you could declare that barbarians don't recover maneuvers while raging. Or that rage counts as a stance and can't be combined with them.

It might also be a good idea to borrow DSP's idea of a reduced-progression initiator who gets maneuvers from 1st-6th level rather than 1st-9th.


EDIT: To me, an initiator barbarian says "overextending yourself". Normally after you use a maneuver, you have to catch your breath and reposition yourself before you can use it again. A barbarian might be able to ignore this and use the same maneuver more than once at the cost of throwing themselves completely off-balance. Maybe they become fatigued, flat-footed, or provoke an AoO from their attack target. Maybe they suffer penalties that last for the duration of their rage, giving you an incentive to stop raging for a moment in order to clear your head and fight more effectively.

[Elves]

Martial ACFs for core classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?581281-The-Age-of-Warriors-(Project-Revived!)&p=23800676#post23800676) - here bbn gets a discipline that varies by totem choice

But that assumes you don't want to actually make barbarian a full initiator. If you do, maybe give them a rage-based refresh mechanic -- all maneuvers refresh when you enter a rage, and 2 random maneuvers refresh every round that you spend raging?

[Efrate]

To me barbarians do not really fit as an initiator. Maneuvers are well rehersed practiced series of movements, barbarians are more passion centric fighter. A maneuver user is more a martial arts master vs. a barbarian being a bar room brawler. Both can throw a punch, but a martial artist throws a specific punch that is right for that situation, a brawler just throws a punch.

However, I can see a lot of stances fitting a barbarian, especially those relating to extra damage at the cost of safety or those that enhance senses. They fit the aethestic more. My 2 cp.

[mabriss lethe]

You've got a spectrum of options that you can choose from.

Minor, using the tools already provided: This would simply be grabbing a few choice martial study/stance feats as the character levels. No inherent method for recovering maneuvers during combat and 1/2 HD as initiator level, but with rage or whirling frenzy, or spirit lion totem on the table, you'll find that boosts and stances will be more useful to you than strikes.

Minor, homebrewed ACF: Swap out a recurring class feature with bonus feats that grant Martial Study/stance from tiger claw only. Balance is pretty difficult to manage here. Barbarians have 3 recurring class features of note: Rage, Trap Sense, and Damage Reduction. without playtesting, I feel that swapping rage for bonus feats is a bad trade, you'd severely weaken the class. Trading Trap Sense may be the most palatable exchange, an ideal entry point at Level 3 and enough instances to make decent use of it, but may not fly since there is a major power increase over the baseline. Trading Damage Reduction makes the most sense balance-wise, but comes online at such a late point at level 7 as to be somewhat distasteful.

Moderate, Homebrew ACF: swap rage for a more completely overhauled initiator mechanic. You can freely give your character full discipline and IL access here without fear of unbalancing the class, formulate an acceptable recovery mechanic, etc. The easiest way would be to copy and paste progressions from an existing initiator, probably a warblade or crusader. You could maintain a barbarian-like feel by allowing a 1/encounter rage analog, possibly tie it in as the recovery mechanic. say while 'raging', the character gains minimal bonuses and when the rage ends, takes a penalty and recovers all maneuvers. (I'm just pulling that out of thin air)

Moderate, off the shelf, Qualify for bloodclaw master: what's on the tin.

Major, Refluff existing initiator: I know you've stated a preference against this, but it's still a viable option. Just swapping out devoted spirit or white raven for tiger claw on a crusader would be pretty simple and do about what you want. If you really wanted, you could probably get away with working in a downgraded Rage advancement by trading out steely resolve as an ACF. And that's probably my favorite option out of everything I'll present.

Major, From the ground up homebrew class. this is where things get tricky. I'd personally test out other options before going this route. Balancing a whole new class can be a bit fiddly.

[Kayblis]

As a simple homebrew option, I'd start with Warblade, take out the Int-related abilities and add Rage with its progressions. Then remove a couple martial disciplines(leave Tiger Claw and one other of choice, for variety; can leave this one discipline to player choice). You'll have a very efficient character that is better than a Barbarian(this is good) with about half the options of a Warblade(a trade-off for Rage). You don't lose any raw power, just the option to generalize and choose from 5 disciplines.

[Falontani]

Levels 1, 2, 6, 10, 12, 16, 18 gain 1 new maneuver from: Desert Wind, Tiger Claw, Stone Dragon, or Iron Heart disciplines. They may use these maneuvers as if the maneuver was obtained through Martial Study.

Levels 5, 11, 17 he gains a new stance.

Upon entering barbarian rage he begins recovering 1 random maneuver per round, and he automatically enters one of his stances at the beginning of each of his turns, without spending an action.