Best Trompe L'oeil

[Quertus]

So, I'm not terribly familiar with Pathfinder. At all. Once upon a time, a Playgrounder told me that it was canon for Pathfinder to be connected to all universes. While I'd love to get a citation for that, for the purposes of this thread, let's stick with D&D and Pathfinder content. So no Trompe L'oeil Space Marines or Superman.

So, given those constraints, and a few more given below, what is the best creature to make a Trompe L'oeil of?

So, the first requirement is that immunity to poison is all but required. Of course, that may(?) come for free by virtue of being a Trompe L'oeil.

This is for the same reason as the second requirement: it may need to weather hundreds of encounters, in diverse environments, with little or no backup.

It needs to be able to fit / squeeze through human-sized areas. So Large size or smaller.

It needs to be creatable. The required caster level = its HD. I think we can shenanigans CL 30 craftsmen, so unless someone tells me that there's Pathfinder-specific rules that would make it harder for a 3.pf craftsman to craft a Pathfinder Trompe L'oeil than a D&D item, I'll use 30 HD as the working limit.

Not being something that provokes a "kill on sight" response would be a plus.

Lastly, it would be nice if it were functional in antimagic. Although I'm not sure if Trompe L'oeil just innately fail that criteria.

So, what am I up to? What's my angle? Basically, I'm running the stereotypical quest giver archetype - wealthy noble who wants to throw money at his problems. Except, instead of just throwing the money away hiring adventurers to solve problems, he's decided to invest by literally sending his money - in the form of "expendable" Trompe L'oeil - to solve problems for him.

-----

So, let me go ahead and go through what I think will actually be the top few answers, that I'm going to ignore for being… not just not balanced to the table, but boring to boot.

1) Trompe L'oeil of the wealthy noble. With the Landlord feat for extra wealth, this can probably go into dysfunctional infinite loop / infinite wealth territory (let alone other dysfunctional issues).

2) Trompe L'oeil of a Tier 1 caster. Epic spells on tap for 32k (or less) just sounds wrong.

3) Trompe L'oeil of Thrullherders. There's just something wrong about your expendable minions having expendable minions, IMO.

4) Trompe L'oeil of an Illithid Savant. All the abilities of 1-3 above, in one squick package - that probably doesn't even starve if it doesn't eat tasty brains.

-----

So, if the Trompe L'oeil doesn't get the construct immunities that I'm used to in 3e (like immunity to poison), then I'm thinking:

Paragon Effigy of a Half-Golem Multi-Headed Half-Dragon Silver Dragon.

Or, if the Trompe L'oeil gets "normal" 3e golem immunities,

Half-Golem Paragon Multi-Headed Half-Dragon Silver Dragon.

-----

I recognize that there are several flaws to my build (for example, Half-Golem reduces Charisma, whereas Trompe L'oeil gain bonus HP & save DCs based on Charisma). But "immunity to magic" seemed too good to pass up - too many missions could fail to a single botched save.

So, Playground, what can you come up with? What would be better at replacing hiring adventuring parties than my (33k @ 30 HD, 26k @ 23 HD) Trompe L'oeil Dragon idea?

[Jack_Simth]

The LG metallic Dragons are probably the best bet. Construct immunities, Sorc casting, nice stats, and the ability to turn into people and animals. Also Monk perfect saves, full BAB, and lots of skills.

[icefractal]

Unlike a Simulacrum, a TLE is a straight-up construct, with all the immunities (and limits) that implies. Obviously anything Cha-based becomes very durable - I played a TLE (human) Wilder, and ended up with an absurd amount of hp.

Other than that, it's pretty much like Simulacrum - anything that has a lot of power for its HD is a good bet. If you make caster TLEs they can self-replicate, so there's that.

The "hide in pictures" ability is handy for spying, and I think provides a way to do the "smokey confinement army in a bottle" trick in PF. So making some with good stealth abilities could be worthwhile.

Note that the wording is ambiguous on whether you control TLEs that you create. If not, you need a way to reprogram constructs (in PF, Impossible bloodline Sorcerer or some Ember Weavers will do it).

[Quertus]

The LG metallic Dragons are probably the best bet. Construct immunities, Sorc casting, nice stats, and the ability to turn into people and animals. Also Monk perfect saves, full BAB, and lots of skills.

I completely forgot shapeshifter coolness - I suppose larger Dragons could still places into human form. Thanks for the extra options!


Unlike a Simulacrum, a TLE is a straight-up construct, with all the immunities (and limits) that implies. Obviously anything Cha-based becomes very durable - I played a TLE (human) Wilder, and ended up with an absurd amount of hp.

Other than that, it's pretty much like Simulacrum - anything that has a lot of power for its HD is a good bet. If you make caster TLEs they can self-replicate, so there's that.

The "hide in pictures" ability is handy for spying, and I think provides a way to do the "smokey confinement army in a bottle" trick in PF. So making some with good stealth abilities could be worthwhile.

Note that the wording is ambiguous on whether you control TLEs that you create. If not, you need a way to reprogram constructs (in PF, Impossible bloodline Sorcerer or some Ember Weavers will do it).

Any specific suggestions that you think might trump my template-stacked (but low Charisma) Dragon?

As for control… I was hoping that a Rod of Construct Control would alleviate that particular ambiguity.

[Jack_Simth]

As for control… I was hoping that a Rod of Construct Control would alleviate that particular ambiguity.
Are you referring to the one that specifies that it only applies to "a construct with no Intelligence score"? Sorry. You might try out the Apparent Master Spell (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/apparent-master), however. Downside: It offers a save, and you're trying to boost your minion's saves...

As to a good dragon: You probably want the Gold Standard (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon/metallic-gold/gold-dragon-great-wyrm), with whatever templates you dig up. Assuming you don't need a real subject.

[Quertus]

Are you referring to the one that specifies that it only applies to "a construct with no Intelligence score"? Sorry. You might try out the Apparent Master Spell (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/apparent-master), however. Downside: It offers a save, and you're trying to boost your minion's saves...

As to a good dragon: You probably want the Gold Standard (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon/metallic-gold/gold-dragon-great-wyrm), with whatever templates you dig up. Assuming you don't need a real subject.

IIRC, the Rod of Construct Control only doesn't allow a save if used on unintelligent constructs, but can still be used to dominate intelligent constructs just fine. If only I could remember what book it's in. (EDIT: Arms & Equipment p. 125 - it gets a Will DC 23 only if intelligent. Usable at will.)

The Apparent Master Spell has a duration measured in hours; I require a duration measured in weeks, minimum.

I'll have to compare the PF & 3e Dragon stats… oh, if playing 3.pf, are the 3e versions of creatures reprinted in PF normally available? If not, this could pose a problem. :smallfrown:

Gold dragons do have the advantage of being able to breathe fire to heal themselves if half iron golem.

Going for the full 30 HD, that's a PF ancient gold dragon vs a 3e old.

At a glance, the PF version would have +4 Str, -4 Dex, +2 Chr, +6 AC, +8 CL, +8d10 breath weapon. Sounds awesome!

Polymorph is usable 3/day, for 1 minute / level (max 30 minutes @ 30 HD). That will certainly pose some problems.

So, limiting it to large size, it'll be PF Juvenile vs 3e Juvenile.

At a glance, the PF version has -3 HD, -2 Str, +1 AC. I think I'd prefer the 3e version, if it's available.

As to why I chose the Young Adult Silver Dragon as my base, it gets +2 HD, +2 AC over the Juvenile Gold Dragon, and its primary breath weapon attack isn't going to start a forest fire.

[Quertus]

So, let's stat that puppy out.

Half-Golem Paragon Multi-Headed Half-Dragon Silver Dragon.

Stats: [58 23 -- 29 28 29] = [23 10 19 18 19 18] + [8 0 2 2 0 2] + [0 0 6 0 0 0] + [15 15 15 15 15 15] + [12 -2 4 -6 0 -6] + [0 0 -- 0 0 0]

NAC 39 = 18+4+6+11

AC 79 = 10(base) + -1(size) + 6(Dex) + 39(NAC) + 12(insight) + 12(luck)

HD 25 = 19+6

HP 805 = (25 x (10+12+9) ) + 30

Breath DC 44 = 10(base) + 12(HD) + 9(Chr) + 13(insight)

Breath weapons:
* 10d8 cold, R44 half
* Paralysis 1d6+5r, F44 negates

Att +73 = 25(BAB) + -1(size) + 24(Str) + 25(luck)

Bite damage: 2d6+44

Saves 33/30/33 = 14/14/14(base) + 9/6/9(stats) + 10/10/10(insight)

Immunities: F/A/C, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, Necromancy, crit, subdual damage, ability damage/drain, fatigue/exhaustion, energy drain, Fort saves (unless affects objects), death from massive damage.

Other: DR 20/+6, immune to magic, fast heal 20, CL 5, frightful presence DC 44, MV 120 / fly 450(poor), blindsense 60', DV 120' / LLV, does not eat / sleep / breathe.

Cost: 28,000 GP

[Quertus]

Assuming you don't need a real subject.

Hmmm… this could be an issue.

A 3e deity with Creation could easily enough create a Paragon Multi-Headed Half-Dragon Silver Dragon… egg, which, at, what, CR 1/10, would only require a round of effort (of rest, really). Then it's just a matter of time.

But adding Half-Golem could prove problematic.

If limited to dragons I've seen / I know to already exist, that cuts down on the options significantly. And removes Silver Dragon (and most good dragons, for that matter) as an option, as there aren't any good candidates. :smallfrown:

[Divine Susuryu]

On control...


A construct recognizes its creator intuitively and obeys all commands issued to it by that individual.

Official Paizo content, pretty unambiguous.

[Quertus]

On control...



Official Paizo content, pretty unambiguous.

Yup, that's pretty unambiguous. Thanks! One less thing to worry about.