Does 5e class/subclass too soon?

[KyleG]

Reading thru another post on what archetypes are missing and my own thoughts around choosing a class instead of the skills within it, I wonder whether 5e assigns class/subclass too early, or infact if we should even.

What about a skill web? Could that work in future editions?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'm inclined to say no. D&D is a class-based game at its core. A system based primarily on skill trees certainly works, and has a lot to recommend for it over classes, but I think you'd lose too much of the feel. You might want to look at some White Wolf games like Exalted or Vampire, though-- they operate more like what I think you're thinking about.

[KyleG]

I'm inclined to say no. D&D is a class-based game at its core. A system based primarily on skill trees certainly works, and has a lot to recommend for it over classes, but I think you'd lose too much of the feel. You might want to look at some White Wolf games like Exalted or Vampire, though-- they operate more like what I think you're thinking about.

Fair enough. I'm not looking for a new game just spitballing.

[Gamer92131]

I think it is not too soon. For me subclass is often the core of how I experience the character.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Most of the classes choose at 3rd level, which is long enough to wait. Beyond that, they'd all look too similar for too long. Clerics, Sorcerers, and Warlocks choose their Deity, Bloodline, or Patron at 1st level, as well they should; those classes make no sense without making a decision at the outset.

I think Paladins actually subclass too late; why wait until 3rd level to choose an Oath, if that's where their powers come from?

[DrKerosene]

If I am breaking in new Players, the 2-3 sessions it should take to get to level 3 seems fine for delaying a few choices, instead of picking all your options immediately.

I’ve always had experienced Players insist on starting new PCs at level 1 too, which gives me a couple sessions to work on deciding how I want to incorperate the archetype into the current campaign/story/etc.

If the archetypes come online “too late”, you can just start at a higher level, but for anyone who wants thier archetype to come online later, I guess they would have to consider multiclassing at level 1 or 2....

[Witty Username]

I would say some class' subclass things are to late as it is, for example if I want to be a fighter/mage of yore I cannot really do that out of the gate outside of hexblade and variant human. I don't mind being weaker at early levels than later nearly as much as well this idea I had won't "turn on" until level x.

[Lunali]

It doesn't matter so much when it's added, most people won't realize that they're considering a class/subclass that they won't enjoy until after they've tried. If you want to fix that problem, allow changing the character after the start of play.

[OldTrees1]

What about a skill web? Could that work in future editions?

D&D Multiclassing simulates a skill web. Not the best implementation of a skill web, but it is a skill web.

[Shriketalon]

I don't think classes and subclasses turn on too early. As others have said in the thread, you're often playing the subclass as your character concept (Eldritch Knight, Ancestral Guardian, Shadow Monk, etc) instead of just your main class, so it's important to realize that aspect of your character quickly.

I do think, particularly for non-casters, that there's a lack of meaningful choices in later levels. If you're playing martial classes especially, once you select your subclass, you're character options are complete. You're basically on auto pilot leveling up outside of spending an ASI every four levels, and even that is a very quick decision 90% of the time.

It would be different if every martial class grabbed maneuvers like the Battle Master. As it is, though, a lot of them stop making meaningful decisions by level 3, which is a shame.

[Prince Vine]

I do think, particularly for non-casters, that there's a lack of meaningful choices in later levels. If you're playing martial classes especially, once you select your subclass, you're character options are complete. You're basically on auto pilot leveling up outside of spending an ASI every four levels, and even that is a very quick decision 90% of the time.

It would be different if every martial class grabbed maneuvers like the Battle Master. As it is, though, a lot of them stop making meaningful decisions by level 3, which is a shame.

I think the idea is personality and actions over builds. I think it is part of why half your skills come from your background and not your class. I could go for more pools of options though, but those always seem to get picked the same anyway when they are available. I try to make it more dunamic by handing out bonuses, penalties, advantage and disadvantage cinematically rather than realistically. I may have to spell this out though as my players are too 'gamey' to have discovered that attacking while swinging from a chandelier gives advantage.

[MrStabby]

I would say the opposite for me.

I think subclasses offer a really nice mechanical differentiator between characters. I wish they were stronger elements. I also find that it means key, flavourful abilities come online a bit later.

Eldritch knight for example feels like it could just be a multiclass until you get your first ability that combines swordplay and magic at level 7. The subsequent EK abilities are all really cool but come online too late to be satisfying.

Rangers are similar. Gloom stalker is ok but horizon walker and monster Hunter feel like their subclass abilities of note come online too late. The abilities that are really cool and unique and set the character apart are kind of MIA till later levels.

Then there are classes like the cleric. "You are a cleric of a god that gives you powers, but you haven't picked which one yet" might work for some pantheon based settings but I think in most cases getting the domain settled at level 1 is needed.

[CTurbo]

I actually think all subclasses should be chosen at character creation therefor implemented at level 1.

[Chronos]

When I made my Arcane Trickster starting at level 1, I actually took human with Ritual Caster as my bonus feat, in part so that I could get in on the spellcasting thing (to a degree, at least) right out of the gate.

[Sception]

I dont think you get your assigned class/subclass too early, but i do feel like maybe there should be decisions like choosing class or subclass that come later, some sort of analogue to 4e's paragon paths and epic destinies. Something to provide a more distinct transition in tiers of play, and to add additional character defining options to characters as they progress allowing for greater customization and more replayability.

Unfortunately, i dont think that this is something that could easily layer on top of the existing framework. You'd have to take some class & subclass features out of later levels to make room for the new paths, which would in turn make multiclassing awkward. Basically adding something like this would require rewriting a lot of the current system in ways that would make long time players feel like the game was "less d&d", so i dont think it would go over well.

[intregus]

I think all the subclasses should be at the same level and at the same intervals. would have made making "Prestige Classes" or "creature templates" like werewolf or vampire easier to incorporate.

also i think D&D can keep the class system but offer more variety like the WOTC star wars saga edition talent tree's.

essentially each class give you access to certain talent trees but you could have 2 rangers look TOTALLY different depending on what talents you took. then with 5e's subclass's those could open up different talent tree's to take along with giving you those defining features.

[MrStabby]

I dont think you get your assigned class/subclass too early, but i do feel like maybe there should be decisions like choosing class or subclass that come later, some sort of analogue to 4e's paragon paths and epic destinies. Something to provide a more distinct transition in tiers of play, and to add additional character defining options to characters as they progress allowing for greater customization and more replayability.

Unfortunately, i dont think that this is something that could easily layer on top of the existing framework. You'd have to take some class & subclass features out of later levels to make room for the new paths, which would in turn make multiclassing awkward. Basically adding something like this would require rewriting a lot of the current system in ways that would make long time players feel like the game was "less d&d", so i dont think it would go over well.

I think you could do this with a nice selection of level gated feats. If they were powerful enough they would add a distinct flavour and could add much needed versatility/utility to those classes whose power tails off at higher levels.

[gkathellar]

If anything, archetypes come online too late for several classes, since they can so completely define basic play experience. 5E is in a lot of ways about your particular class choices, so having them come online after 1st level is, if not necessarily wrong, at least questionable.

A different game, of course, could have experience-defining abilities come online at any level, and have it make sense within the game's larger context. D&D has even been that game. But in 5E, single-class characters are pretty much who they're going to be from level 3 onward at the latest. You'd have to rethink a lot of things if you rethought that.

[Christian]

It might be interesting to have a second fork, something mimicking the 4E 'epic destiny'. Say, somewhere in the 12th-15th level range a second choice of path that gives alternate high-level features ...

[intregus]

It might be interesting to have a second fork, something mimicking the 4E 'epic destiny'. Say, somewhere in the 12th-15th level range a second choice of path that gives alternate high-level features ...

That's not a bad idea either! Those later level subclass features usually aren't as definitive as the beginning ones so having a second "sub class" or epic destiny or whatever you want to call it could work and bring back some exciting choices for the last tier of play

[Sception]

I wouldnt want to tie it to feats. Imo too much mechanical progression and character definition is already tied into too few asi slots.

I like the idea of making it a class feature option for level 11 or later - such that multiclass characters could still get one, albeit late, but no character could get more than one.