Why the Xykon "power" speech is great

[Elves]

I was just rereading the big Xykon power speech (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html) in 657. If you read it in real world terms, it comes off as vapid boasting. But of course, what he's actually talking about (and defending) is the D&D level/HD system that governs the world of the comic.

So the speech shows a mindset that doesn't make sense in real life, but does make sense for a character who lives in the setting. Like but even moreso than Roy's afterlife speech (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html) a few strips later, which is a little on-the-nose and winkish, the Xykon speech shows how a character who lives under these rules might process and react to them.

That's obviously not a new idea, but it's rarely done with this much naturalism in fantasy. Usually this kind of thing feels forced. But here it's said in such a straightforward way that you feel like he's making a statement about our world, instead of one about his.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I liked the speech.

[woweedd]

What I love about that speech is how V, almost immediately afterwards, turns the table of Xykon by taking his advice. Power can take many forms. Like, say, a familiar, or a 3rd-level spell. They may seem weak, but, applied properly, they can deal the enemy a major blow, as V demonstrated.

[Unbodied]

I think you're missing the point rather badly if you look at that speech and conclude that it has no relevance to the real world and is only good because it makes sense for a game character to say it. It is absolutely valid to the real world. Sure there are no Levels or HD in real life. But there is political power, monetary power, power from having specific skills in specific situations where you can benefit from them, power from having friends in the right places and having connections, power from being good at making those friends/connections or power from being skilled at breaking down such friendships to isolate and depower your opponents. There is power in doing dirty deeds behind the scenes and there is power in being able to sniff out and publish such dirty secrets.


Most importantly there is power in being able to achieve the things you want to achieve. I'm pretty sure the Giant himself made a quote on this. Something like: a highly trained killing machine in the Navy Seals may be more "powerful" than someone who works shifts at McDonalds, but if all the soldier wants to do is go home and sleep next to their spouse but can't, while the fast food worker is able to do the same with their own spouse every single day. Then who is more powerful? Who has made the most optimal choices to get what they want in life?

[hamishspence]

I'm pretty sure the Giant himself made a quote on this. Something like: a highly trained killing machine in the Navy Seals may be more "powerful" than someone who works shifts at McDonalds, but if all the soldier wants to do is go home and sleep next to their spouse but can't, while the fast food worker is able to do the same with their own spouse every single day. Then who is more powerful? Who has made the most optimal choices to get what they want in life?

You are correct:


Who's more powerful, a fighter or a wizard? Who's more powerful, an art therapist or a tree surgeon? It's a nonsense question, because "power" in the sense that D&D players use the word does not really exist in our world. Therefore, it's a fairly meaningless thing to worry too much about. In the real world, power takes many forms, but none of them "trump" all the others the way that people think that wizards trump all other classes. Power is whatever helps you get what you want, and not everything that represents power to one person necessarily has any use to anyone else. Who's more powerful, a fully armed marine or a fast food worker? What if I told you that all the marine wants is to sleep next to her husband who's 7000 miles away, something the fast food worker does every single night? Now who's more powerful? Who optimized their life to get what was really important to them? Who's more powerful, an investment banker or a guy who gets to work in his pajamas? There are no clear cut answers, and everyone's choices are their own to make—and not for others to judge as being "suboptimal."

And to bring it back to D&D, optimizers usually make the flawed assumption that what everybody wants is for their character to be able to steamroll the monsters as quickly and efficiently as possible, when in fact what some people want might be to tell the story of a deeply flawed hero who bumbles their way through every encounter, while what other people might want is to not spend more than ten minutes making their character so they can spend more time sleeping next to their husband. Power is about priorities, and there are no objectively superior priorities in life or D&D.

So I guess what I'm getting at is that power doesn't interest me at all per se, but the ongoing and habitual mischaracterization by a subset of my readers about what constitutes power does. I suppose it's the D&D version of, "Money can't buy happiness."

[deuterio12]

I was just rereading the big Xykon power speech (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html) in 657. If you read it in real world terms, it comes off as vapid boasting. But of course, what he's actually talking about (and defending) is the D&D level/HD system that governs the world of the comic.


-Xykon can hear the invisible elf behind him.
-Xykon can't hear nor see the fighter/paladin getting up and approaching with no cover/concealment.

Guess a +8 racial bonus still won't keep you safe from some bad luck in the dice.

[martianmister]

I think it's just BS reasoning on Xykon's fantasies, "power is power" is a meaningless term.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think it's just BS reasoning on Xykon's fantasies, "power is power" is a meaningless term.

Only to a point. The crucial context is that V was absolutely convinced that magic -specifically, arcane magic- is the greatest power there is and, with enough of it, all problems can be resolved. Xykon is correct that there is no such thing as “greatest power”. All power is a tool, and different tools are useful in different circumstances. It is the same lesson that the ABD taught V with the anti magic field. They doubled down then, they finally accepted it this time.

In that sense, Xykon is correct: power is indeed power. The source or its form is less relevant than how well it applies to the circumstance you intend to apply it to.

Grey Wolf

[woweedd]

Only to a point. The crucial context is that V was absolutely convinced that magic -specifically, arcane magic- is the greatest power there is and, with enough of it, all problems can be resolved. Xykon is correct that there is no such thing as “greatest power”. All power is a tool, and different tools are useful in different circumstances. It is the same lesson that the ABD taught V with the anti magic field. They doubled down then, they finally accepted it this time.

In that sense, Xykon is correct: power is indeed power. The source or its form is less relevant than how well it applies to the circumstance you intend to apply it to.

Grey Wolf
I mean, i've noted, V applied that lesson immediately.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I mean, i've noted, V applied that lesson immediately.

Not with the ABD. They responded to that with "moar magic".

Grey Wolf

[zimmerwald1915]

But there is political power, monetary power, power from having specific skills in specific situations where you can benefit from them, power from having friends in the right places and having connections, power from being good at making those friends/connections or power from being skilled at breaking down such friendships to isolate and depower your opponents. There is power in doing dirty deeds behind the scenes and there is power in being able to sniff out and publish such dirty secrets.
All of these go together and build each other up. They are not counterpoised and balanced - they are self-reinforcing and tend toward monopoly.

[Fyraltari]

Not with the ABD. They responded to that with "moar magic".

Grey Wolf

Which was before the speech, not immediately afterwards. Immediately afterwards, V used Blackwing and Explosive Runes to great effect.

[zimmerwald1915]

Which was before the speech, not immediately afterwards. Immediately afterwards, V used Blackwing and Explosive Runes to great effect.
I think Grey Wolf's point is that there was no particular reason Xykon's speech should have had that effect on Vaarsuvius, as opposed to her being driven through the side of a mountain. Or losing the trust of her friends. Or losing her family.

What makes the lich so special? Or Vaarsuvius so particularly humbled in that moment?

[HorizonWalker]

I think Grey Wolf's point is that there was no particular reason Xykon's speech should have had that effect on Vaarsuvius, as opposed to her being driven through the side of a mountain. Or losing the trust of her friends. Or losing her family.

What makes the lich so special? Or Vaarsuvius so particularly humbled in that moment?

Because Xykon spelled it out for V. With the Dragon, V could and did interpret their loss as "I'm not strong enough." But Xykon was directly didactic. He told V exactly what this all meant. And to an extent, he was right.

[Kornaki]

Possibly the fact that it was a person who has superior arcane power telling them that arcane power isn't everything. If anyone would know it's Xykon.

[Anymage]

What makes the lich so special? Or Vaarsuvius so particularly humbled in that moment?

The ABD explicitly mentioned (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html) waiting until V had separated from friends and exhausted his high level spell slots. That's a situation that could have been avoided by simply having more power.

After the initial success saving his family, though, arcane power fixed absolutely nothing (except for finding the azurites a new place to stay, which wasn't a priority for V), culminating in a situation where overconfidence nearly got him killed. That should be very effective at hammering the message home.


I was just rereading the big Xykon power speech (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html) in 657. If you read it in real world terms, it comes off as vapid boasting. But of course, what he's actually talking about (and defending) is the D&D level/HD system that governs the world of the comic.

So the speech shows a mindset that doesn't make sense in real life, but does make sense for a character who lives in the setting. Like but even moreso than Roy's afterlife speech (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html) a few strips later, which is a little on-the-nose and winkish, the Xykon speech shows how a character who lives under these rules would process and react to them.

That's obviously not a new idea, but I think it's rarely done with this much naturalism in fantasy. Usually this kind of thing feels forced. But here it's said in such a straightforward way that you feel like he's making a statement about our world, instead of one about his.

To be fair, he also later acknowleged that certain classes are capable of "doing everything (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0764.html)" while others are not. Like a lot of the 3.5 specific jokes, some aged better tha nothers.

[woweedd]

Possibly the fact that it was a person who has superior arcane power telling them that arcane power isn't everything. If anyone would know it's Xykon.
Plus, Xykon's probably the most persuasive person in the world, technically. For a Sorcerer of his level, even if he never put ANY points in Diplomacy, his natural bonus would be better then most.

[deuterio12]

After the initial success saving his family, though, arcane power fixed absolutely nothing (except for finding the azurites a new place to stay, which wasn't a priority for V)

Don't forget also wiping out a significant percentage of evil dragons out there.

Sure there was some collateral damage, but that also helped the OotS find the next gate when otherwise they could've just ended trapped and killed by the paranoid draketooth family's maze of illusions (remember they're the guys who explicitly refuse ressurections from LG people).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Which was before the speech, not immediately afterwards. Immediately afterwards, V used Blackwing and Explosive Runes to great effect.

Yes? I didn't suggest otherwise

It is the same lesson that the ABD taught V with the anti magic field. They doubled down then, they finally accepted it this time.

Grey Wolf

[Rrmcklin]

To be fair, he also later acknowleged that certain classes are capable of "doing everything (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0764.html)" while others are not. Like a lot of the 3.5 specific jokes, some aged better tha nothers.

Three characters in classes stereotyped as such voicing an opinion, isn't the same thing as the author acknowledging the opinion as correct. It's an acknowledgement that that view-point exists, but that's about it.

[Fyraltari]

I think Grey Wolf's point is that there was no particular reason Xykon's speech should have had that effect on Vaarsuvius, as opposed to her being driven through the side of a mountain. Or losing the trust of her friends. Or losing her family.

What makes the lich so special? Or Vaarsuvius so particularly humbled in that moment?
Because Vaarsuvius had gained more power than they will ever have and still lost. They're whole obsession was that if they failed anything it was because they didn't have enough magic. It took them sacrificing everything to gain all the magic they could and that still not solving anything to realize how wrong they were. Also when was V driven through the side of a mountain?

Yes? I didn't suggest otherwise


Grey Wolf

Oh, sorry, I missed that post. Carry on.

[Jannoire]

Also when was V driven through the side of a mountain?

In the first fight against ABD, the mountain on that island shattered when ABD attacked V physically. One could read it as "ABD smacked V against that mountain and it shattered"...

See here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html)

[Fyraltari]

That’s a big rock, not a mountain, but I see the point.

[Jannoire]

"Driven through the site of a big rock" is nowhere near as spectacular as "driven through the site of a mountain"...

[Fyraltari]

Look the flying crocodile is bigger than that thing. You can’t be a mountain when you are less than six meters tall, that’s just common sense.

[Elves]

"Power takes many forms" is only part of it. He starts out with, "Power isn't something you put on or take off like a jacket. It's something you just are." That makes a lot more sense in a world where there's literally an abstract "power" stat in the form of levels/HD than in ours where power is more contextual. Basically, I'm reading him as making the assertion that 1 level = 1 level for most purposes, whether it's O-chul's high HP or the racial listen bonus from his own Lich template.

It's something that's not really true ingame but it's the sort of opinion someone who has seen a lot of situations that don't take place in a vacuum of optimization and have different success criteria might come to.

Xykon is also not someone who's been shown to be very self-aware about the rules compared to Redcloak or the protags, presumably in the same way he wouldn't be very interested in physics or science in the real world, so it makes sense for him to operate more on rules of thumb based on personal experience.

[johnbragg]

-Xykon can hear the invisible elf behind him.
-Xykon can't hear nor see the fighter/paladin getting up and approaching with no cover/concealment.

Guess a +8 racial bonus still won't keep you safe from some bad luck in the dice.

Well, Xykon was actively searching for V. Then he found V, and his attention was on V, not on O'Chul.

(In 5th, this would be modeled by a check with Advantage to find V, followed by a passive Perception check to find O'Chul. I'm not sure what the exact ruling would be in 3X)

[Lombard]

I feel like Xykon's INT and WIS scores were portrayed fairly well in that speech. I think the point he was really trying to make was, most people have too narrow of a definition of what being powerful means. His context is that he was so often looked down on by wizards who he could (usually) defeat just by spamming a small handful of spells. Power = whatever is effective. Power = whatever wins.

[woweedd]

I feel like Xykon's INT and WIS scores were portrayed fairly well in that speech. I think the point he was really trying to make was, most people have too narrow of a definition of what being powerful means. His context is that he was so often looked down on by wizards who he could (usually) defeat just by spamming a small handful of spells. Power = whatever is effective. Power = whatever wins.
I would not call Xykon wise. Intelligent? Sure. He's smart as a whip, on top of being possibly the most dangerous man undead. But prudent and of sound judgement he ain't. This is the man whose planning skills amount to "Screw planning".

[CriticalFailure]

I think it shows his int and wis scores as well as his cha score, in that he takes a pretty basic concept (the idea that there are many different types of power) and makes it sound like a huge revelation.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I think it shows his int and wis scores as well as his cha score, in that he takes a pretty basic concept (the idea that there are many different types of power) and makes it sound like a huge revelation.

add enough big long words and you can appear intelligent and wise.

[deuterio12]

I would not call Xykon wise. Intelligent? Sure. He's smart as a whip, on top of being possibly the most dangerous man undead. But prudent and of sound judgement he ain't. This is the man whose planning skills amount to "Screw planning".

That was just a bluff, he considers it worth to go the extra mile. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html)

Why blast the paladins from a safe distance when you can make them all go insane and start killing each other?

[Wizard_Lizard]

That was just a bluff, he considers it worth to go the extra mile. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html)

Why blast the paladins from a safe distance when you can make them all go insane and start killing each other?

because it's fun?

[deuterio12]

because it's fun?

And as you grow older, you learn that fun is something that demands a certain amount of planning. Just blasting your load right away loses its luster pretty fast.

So in this case instead of shooting his stuff as fast as possible with no foreplay, Xykon went through the trouble of carving insanity glyphs in a bouncy ball for that extra fun.

Or how Xykon later started planning all kind of nasty scenarios to test just how badass O'Chul was also just for the fun of it.

[sleepy hedgehog]

I really like his speech too.

I use a slightly modified version of it for describing MtG's black color philosophy.
And how it differs from blue, since everyone seems to confuse those two colors.

[woweedd]

And as you grow older, you learn that fun is something that demands a certain amount of planning. Just blasting your load right away loses its luster pretty fast.

So in this case instead of shooting his stuff as fast as possible with no foreplay, Xykon went through the trouble of carving insanity glyphs in a bouncy ball for that extra fun.

Or how Xykon later started planning all kind of nasty scenarios to test just how badass O'Chul was also just for the fun of it.
Not terribly pragmatic, though.

[Kelenius]

I think it's also worth noting that in one particular case for V, power took form of a lawful evil outsider that made a promise to help her, a friendly cleric with prepared resurrection and a scroll of sending, and a high-level wizard she knew.

[Kish]

Durkon wasn't at the fleet. The "alternate plan" was explicitly called out as ridiculous by Qarr. So I'm not sure where you're going with that, beyond that it seems to hinge on treating something that wouldn't have worked as though it would have.

[Jannoire]

And even if Durkon was there, the ten minutes it would've taken to resurrect V would've been too long. The dragon would be long gone...

[zimmerwald1915]

And even if Durkon was there, the ten minutes it would've taken to resurrect V would've been too long. The dragon would be long gone...
Twenty minutes. Sending has a ten-minute casting time too.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Twenty minutes.

Not in OotS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html). But sending is indeed ten minutes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0603.html). Which means this page (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html) took a really long time (or is it quicker from scrolls?).

Grey Wolf

[woweedd]

Not in OotS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html). But sending is indeed ten minutes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0603.html). Which means this page (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html) took a really long time (or is it quicker from scrolls?).

Grey Wolf
...10 minutes to Resurrect V, 10 more to Send.

[zimmerwald1915]

...10 minutes to Resurrect V, 10 more to Send.
Eeeeee-yup.

[Kelenius]

It is, at least in OOTS, faster from scrolls. As the fiends themselves say in 634: "Don't worry about the casting time, your friend has been saving a scroll for just such an emergency". So the plan could work. It is ridiculous, but it could work.

[Fyraltari]

Not in OotS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html). But sending is indeed ten minutes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0603.html). Which means this page (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html) took a really long time (or is it quicker from scrolls?).

Grey Wolf

Then again, it doesn't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1109.html) always does so.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Then again, it doesn't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1109.html) always does so.

inconsistencies.

[martianmister]

It is, at least in OOTS, faster from scrolls. As the fiends themselves say in 634: "Don't worry about the casting time, your friend has been saving a scroll for just such an emergency". So the plan could work. It is ridiculous, but it could work.

And Durkon confirmed that he really saving some scrolls, regularly. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1152.html)

[Jannoire]

It is, at least in OOTS, faster from scrolls. As the fiends themselves say in 634: "Don't worry about the casting time, your friend has been saving a scroll for just such an emergency". So the plan could work. It is ridiculous, but it could work.

Or the fiends lied to V because xhe (is that the right word?) doesn't know sh*t about divine magic...

[martianmister]

Or the fiends lied to V because xhe (is that the right word?) doesn't know sh*t about divine magic...

Check out Fyraltari's post above.

[hroþila]

Personal theory: either there's two variants of the Sending spell making the rounds in the OOTS world, or casting as a prepared spell takes 10 minutes, casting from a scroll is instantaneous (or nearly so), and we don't see the scroll Vampire Durkon used in #1109 because of some reason or another.

[Kish]

It is, at least in OOTS, faster from scrolls. As the fiends themselves say in 634: "Don't worry about the casting time, your friend has been saving a scroll for just such an emergency". So the plan could work. It is ridiculous, but it could work.
Again, Durkon wasn't at the fleet.

Thanks for demonstrating exactly why I went straight to the one bit of explicit information that no one's ever tried to argue about when pushing the idea that the plan could work, instead of throwing in the other reasons it wouldn't work. Now please actually address it this time instead of ignoring it.

[Kelenius]

Again, Durkon wasn't at the fleet.

Thanks for demonstrating exactly why I went straight to the one bit of explicit information that no one's ever tried to argue about when pushing the idea that the plan could work, instead of throwing in the other reasons it wouldn't work. Now please actually address it this time instead of ignoring it.

Couldn't the imp just teleport to wherever he is, then?

[Fyraltari]

Couldn't the imp just teleport to wherever he is, then?

How would Qarr know where to find him (which, remember is ‘‘moving at high speed and altitude’’) and why would he?

[Kelenius]

Hmm, yeah, seems that it wouldn't work.

Then I don't get why the fiends brought up that plan in the first place.

[Fyraltari]

Hmm, yeah, seems that it wouldn't work.

Then I don't get why the fiends brought up that plan in the first place.
Because V did believe that it would work. And they wanted him to, because that way they don’t have the excuse of ‘‘It was the only way to save my family’’. It was, but V thought there was another option that did not require making a deal with fiends but required owning up to their mistakes. As to why the fiends did that? They’re fiends, if they can be dickish with no consequences, they will be.

Edit: Moreover, if V did it, telling to themselves ‘I’m only doing this to save my family’ there was a chance they wouldn’t fight Xykon. But by the time Inkyrius told them to give up the splice, that ship had sailed.

[hroþila]

Personally, I think they didn't need V to quite believe it, all they needed was a millisecond of "But then it wouldn't be me doing it!" for the rationalization to crack, whether or not V realized later that the suggested plan wouldn't work. But given V's state of exhaustion and distress, V might well have believed, at least until they stopped to think it through, long after losing the splice.

[woweedd]

They did in order to twist V's motivation. They want to make V turn Evil, and so, by, presenting a plausible alternative, turning their motivation from "saving my family" to "defending my own ego", they're shifting V's motives, just enough to increase the chances V will end up in one of their realms down the line, and, for a spellcaster of their level, that's a hell of a find, no pun intended. Taking a demonic/devilish/daemonic deal to save your family could be justified, doing it to save your ego cannot be.

[Peelee]

And Durkon confirmed that he really saving some scrolls, regularly. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1152.html)

I must be missing something, because I'm not seeing a word about having scrolls there. Just that Durkon regularly preps Sendings.

[zimmerwald1915]

Taking a demonic/devilish/daemonic deal to save your family could be justified
Eh, not really, particularly where, as here, one's family is conceived of as an extension of oneself, or one's property.

[Fyraltari]

Eh, not really, particularly where, as here, one's family is conceived of as an extension of oneself, or one's property.

I’m sorry, what?

[RatElemental]

Eh, not really, particularly where, as here, one's family is conceived of as an extension of oneself, or one's property.

While some people may view their family as little more than extensions of themselves, I'm not convinced Vaarsuvius does. I'd also like an explanation of how it's 'particularly' unjustified when someone makes a deal with fiends to save their family for that reason. The original point was be that there can be cases where it could be justified.

[woweedd]

While some people may view their family as little more than extensions of themselves, I'm not convinced Vaarsuvius does. I'd also like an explanation of how it's 'particularly' unjustified when someone makes a deal with fiends to save their family for that reason. The original point was be that there can be cases where it could be justified.
Yeah, V can be a bit empathic, callous, and generally terse, but they do seem to love their family. Including loving them enough to recognize when they're making things worse. It's one of the many parallels between them and Laurain: A willingness to do awful things if it means keeping their family safe.

[Sinewmire]

While some people may view their family as little more than extensions of themselves, I'm not convinced Vaarsuvius does.
I think it would be fair to say that V derives a lot of value from them and attacking them is by proxy, attacking him, especially in this context. That doesn't mean V doesn't love them, just very possessive and prideful.

I don't think Xykon is a dumb as he pretends to be, he just doesn't like to waste time on things he deems pointless. He doesn't care about planning the siege of azure city, because it's all a big distraction anyway. Why should he sweat the details when he doesn't care if they win? He is pretty sure he's powerful enough to defeat the sapphire guard when he sneaks into the throne room. That's enough planning for him.
Xykon would rather watch the TeeVo or whatever than plan an assault because he gets nothing from the planning, whereas he is mildly amused by the TeeVo.
What was that joke about jokes? "Tragedy is when I stub my toe, comedy is when you fall into an open manhole and die"?

Xykon has some really excellent lines, and I totally agree this is one of them. Ironically the power that really mattered there was friendship. The MITD determined whether O-Chul and V lived there.

[zimmerwald1915]

Ironically the power that really mattered there was friendship. The MITD determined whether O-Chul and V lived there.
Vaarsuvius had interacted with neither O-Chul nor the Thing in the Shadows prior to that point.

[martianmister]

Little did people notice, but V turned back to the room after hearing what Xykon is planning to do to O-Chul. This was the point of Xykon's boast.

[vegetalss4]

Personal theory: either there's two variants of the Sending spell making the rounds in the OOTS world, or casting as a prepared spell takes 10 minutes, casting from a scroll is instantaneous (or nearly so), and we don't see the scroll Vampire Durkon used in #1109 because of some reason or another.


Not in OotS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html). But sending is indeed ten minutes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0603.html). Which means this page (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html) took a really long time (or is it quicker from scrolls?).

Grey Wolf

In 3.5 casting from a scroll does only require a standard action (both when this is quicker and in the rare cases when it is slower than casting the spell normally) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#spellCompletion)

[woweedd]

In 3.5 casting from a scroll does only require a standard action (both when this is quicker and in the rare cases when it is slower than casting the spell normally) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#spellCompletion)

And all of this is irrevlant because Durkon was not, in fact, at the fleet.

[hroþila]

And all of this is irrevlant because Durkon was not, in fact, at the fleet.
So? We're not even discussing a hypothetical here per se, but the actual rules of this universe. "How do scrolls work" is pretty relevant to the question, "How do scrolls work".

[woweedd]

So? We're not even discussing a hypothetical here per se, but the actual rules of this universe. "How do scrolls work" is pretty relevant to the question, "How do scrolls work".
The question is "Would the Fiends' plan work" and casting time is not the relevant objection.

[hroþila]

The question is "Would the Fiends' plan work" and casting time is not the relevant objection.
That was not the question anymore for the people who wanted to talk about the specifics of casting from scrolls. Come on, threads go in all sorts of different directions all the time.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

In 3.5 casting from a scroll does only require a standard action (both when this is quicker and in the rare cases when it is slower than casting the spell normally) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#spellCompletion)

Thanks!


And all of this is irrevlant because Durkon was not, in fact, at the fleet.

On the contrary, what is irrelevant is this comment, since I was asking about Nale's use of sending through scrolls.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

And as you grow older, you learn that fun is something that demands a certain amount of planning. Just blasting your load right away loses its luster pretty fast.

So in this case instead of shooting his stuff as fast as possible with no foreplay, Xykon went through the trouble of carving insanity glyphs in a bouncy ball for that extra fun.

Well, this thread took an unexpectedly R-rated turn.

[Squire Doodad]

Well, this thread took an unexpectedly R-rated turn.

R for...Redcloak!
R for...Ruck!
R for...
Revolution?



What do Nintendo codenames have to do with anything

[Peelee]

R for...Redcloak!
R for...Ruck!
R for...
Revolution?

Vive la revolution!

[snowblizz]

R for...Redcloak!
R for...Ruck!
R for...
Revolution?



What do Nintendo codenames have to do with anything

If you don't know what he means, I can't tell you.

R is Restricted I think and denotes content not appropriate for younger viewers, and if it is still unclear what Ruck meant I Rrrreally can't tell you

[Fyraltari]

R for...Redcloak!
R for...Ruck!
R for...
Revolution?



What do Nintendo codenames have to do with anything

Sex, as always on the internet.