Greywander
2019-05-26, 07:07 PM
Introduction
So a while back I was playing in a game with my sister where we both played gestalt characters since it was just the two of us. Perhaps in combination with leveling up too quickly and not being an experienced player, I found I just had too many new features, and would often forget about an ability at times when it would have been useful. Getting too many options too fast meant I was forgetting that I had them and overlooking them in my ever expanding arsenal of abilities.
If I were to play another game with a gestalt character, I think I might like to do things a bit differently, such as staggering the class levels so that I don't gain levels in both classes at the same time. That way, I'd have time to adjust and adapt to the new features of each class. Thinking about this, though, it sounds a lot like a variation on multiclassing, but where a multiclass doesn't increase your character level. This gave me an idea, and is more or less what this thread is about.
So why would it be appealing to play a gestalt character? Aside from increasing your versatility in a small party, it also lets you gain the same benefits of a dip without hurting your main class progression, and without worrying about what you'll be "giving up" at 20th level. Thus, what I want to do is allow a character to multiclass without hurting their main progression or forcing them to "give up" high level class features later on (but also without making them too powerful too quickly). Basically, so you don't have to worry about the "later". Here's what I came up with.
Gestalt?
I'm assuming most of you know what this is, but in case you don't: A gestalt character is a character that gains levels in two (or more) different classes at the same time. At 1st level, you can pick two different classes and get the features of both. Likewise, when you gain a level, you get to choose two different classes to increase your level in. For example, you can be a fighter/wizard who gains levels in both classes every time they level up.
What I'm doing in this thread is deliberately looking at a way to do a gestalt character differently. So, you no longer get that second class level "for free", but have to purchase it with XP. This isn't really a gestalt anymore, not quite, but once the XP fee has been paid it's going to look a lot like one.
Da Rules?
Here's the core rules:
Players can still multiclass as normal, which is important. You don't automatically have to be 20th level in any one class to be a 20th level character.
When you gain a level, you can instead gestalt into another class, raising your level in that class without raising your character level.
Since gestalting doesn't increase your level, the XP cost to gain a level doesn't increase.
While gestalting doesn't increase your level, it is otherwise treated like multiclassing. You must meet the same restrictions, and gain the same proficiencies.
You still can't gestalt subclasses. If you want to mix and match subclasses, you'll need additional homebrew.
You can gestalt into as many classes as you like. You can actually be 1st level in every class (3300 XP cost, 11 * 300), and your non-gestalt party members will only be 4th level.
You cannot gestalt into a class level that is higher than your character level. If you are 3rd level, you can't gestalt into the 4th level of a class. You must fully level up first.
There is no distinction between "real" class levels and gestalt class levels. Things like HP gain are affected, but you still count as being that level of that class.
Once you hit 20th level, you can spend epic boons to continue to gestalt into other classes.
Because your character level does not increase:
As noted above, it takes the same amount of XP to level up again, instead of increasing, see below for more detail.
Your proficiency bonus does not increase.
You don't gain hit points or hit dice normally (though see below).
Spell slots/caster level gets wonky, see below.
We'll look into some of the particulars noted above. Some of these will depend on what rules you're using for gestalt characters. No such official rules exist, but I've thoroughly (perhaps too thoroughly) explored the subject and various options for gestalt characters here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M1klFB07A7zeulumCZ6jqyd2XM8qkk2LaMVfC0sk_UY/edit?usp=sharing).
XP Cost
As noted above, the XP cost to advance does not increase after you gestalt. A 3rd level character, for example, has 900 XP and needs 2700 XP to advance to 4th level. This means they need to gain 1800 XP to advance. They can instead choose to gestalt into another class without gaining a level, and thus still only need 1800 XP to advance to 4th level. To put it another way, with 3600 XP (2 * 1800) they can gestalt once and then go up to 4th level.
This does add some cost/benefit analysis to your character advancement. You can have more class levels for a smaller XP cost by gestalting as early and often as you can, but this comes at the cost of your overall level progression. You're never prevented from fully advancing to 20th level, but it will take a lot longer (and the campaign might not run that long). On the other hand, if you wait until you're a high level before you gestalt, it will be much more expensive to do so.
One of the consequences of this is that players will be encouraged to dip early, and not very far. Getting Cunning Action or Action Surge on any build won't be too expensive, but getting Aura of Protection will be a lot more expensive. Thus, this allows players to grab low level class features that they want, but makes higher level features more prohibitive.
The minimum XP cost to raise every class to 20 is 3,798,000 XP. By comparison, it only costs 355,000 XP, less than 1/10, to get from 1 to 20 without gestalting. As noted, waiting to gestalt increases the XP cost to do so, so you want to immediately gestalt all classes to 1st level, and only then raise your character level to 2nd, and so on. However, the epic boons at 20th level only cost 30,000 XP, which is less than the cost to level up from 15th level and onward. Thus, once you hit 15th level, you want to continue without gestalting all the way to 20th level, then spend epic boons to raise your other classes to 20. There's also a similar oddity where it costs less XP to advance at 11th level than it does at 9th or 10th, so once you reach 9th level it's better to skip to 11th without gestalting.
I want to stress that whiteroom analysis looks a lot better than actual practice. Yes, you can get everything, technically speaking, but will you? Pretend that each campaign has an XP cap, only a certain amount of XP will ever be handed out (which is true, as the campaign will end at some point). For most campaigns, the XP cap doesn't even allow you to get to 20th level. For those that do, the less you gestalt, the sooner you will get there. And in general, the less you gestalt, the more likely you are to actually make it to 20. The only real problem is how many classes have their features frontloaded.
Hit Points and Hit Dice
I prefer to work things out in such a way that it doesn't matter what order you do something in. Since you can roll for HP, this makes it tricky, but I've found a solution that is "good enough" by yielding the same average HP. When you gain a real level up, you gain HP as normal, but when you gain a gestalt level in a class, you instead gain HP based on that class's hit die:
For a d6, you get no HP.
For a d8, you get +1 HP.
For a d10, you get +2 HP.
For a d12, you get +3 HP.
This works out to the same average HP regardless of what order you gain class levels, and doesn't distinguish between "real" levels and gestalt levels. The only thing that affects your final average is what class you started as at 1st level.
You always have a number of hit dice equal to your character level. Thus, gestalting doesn't give you more hit dice. You can, however, replace a smaller hit die with a larger one, even retroactively. A wizard that gestalts into barbarian can replace their d6 with a d12. Likewise, a barbarian that gestalts into fighter, then later gains a wizard level, can retroactively take the fighter's hit die instead of the wizard's.
Again, this means you always end up with 20d12 hit dice if you gestalt 20 levels into every class, regardless of what order you do it in, or which class levels are "real" and which are gestalt levels.
Spell Slots and Caster Level
I know I'm going to catch flak for this, but the easiest way to do this is to count all class levels, real or gestalt, toward your caster level. This means you can technically be a 6th level caster at 1st level (by being 1st level in the 5 different full casters, as well as the two half casters), which would only cost you 1800 XP (start with 1 class, plus 6 * 300). Your non-gestalt party members will be 3rd level on the way to 4th. Keep in mind, though, that even though you have 3rd level spell slots, you still only know 1st level spells in each class.
The flip side of this is that your caster level is still capped at 20. This means that a 10th level wizard who gestalts 10 levels into cleric has all the spell slots they're ever going to get.
There's a few different ways to handle spell slots and caster level, but those are a different discussion. An alternative would be to cap your caster level at your character level, with the "extra" caster levels only being applied once you raise your character level.
Would you use this?
There's a potential for abuse due to the low cost of gestalting early on and how many classes frontload their features, but this isn't really a new problem and already existed with the standard multiclassing. It's debatable whether this is a bug or a feature, though, as it does make it easier for players to grab character-defining abilities quickly and early before settling in to focus on a specific class. There's probably ways this could be tweaked or improved, so I'd love to hear what you guys have to say.
My two initial thoughts are that we could put a cap on how many times you can gestalt (e.g. once per level), or make each subsequent gestalt level cost more XP that resets when you gain a real level, discouraging wide builds such as dipping one level into every class. Another idea might be that (pre-20, at least) you have to spend a real level to multiclass into a class before you can spend gestalt levels to improve that class, thus each new class you want to gestalt into necessitates increasing your character level, and thus the cost to gestalt.
So a while back I was playing in a game with my sister where we both played gestalt characters since it was just the two of us. Perhaps in combination with leveling up too quickly and not being an experienced player, I found I just had too many new features, and would often forget about an ability at times when it would have been useful. Getting too many options too fast meant I was forgetting that I had them and overlooking them in my ever expanding arsenal of abilities.
If I were to play another game with a gestalt character, I think I might like to do things a bit differently, such as staggering the class levels so that I don't gain levels in both classes at the same time. That way, I'd have time to adjust and adapt to the new features of each class. Thinking about this, though, it sounds a lot like a variation on multiclassing, but where a multiclass doesn't increase your character level. This gave me an idea, and is more or less what this thread is about.
So why would it be appealing to play a gestalt character? Aside from increasing your versatility in a small party, it also lets you gain the same benefits of a dip without hurting your main class progression, and without worrying about what you'll be "giving up" at 20th level. Thus, what I want to do is allow a character to multiclass without hurting their main progression or forcing them to "give up" high level class features later on (but also without making them too powerful too quickly). Basically, so you don't have to worry about the "later". Here's what I came up with.
Gestalt?
I'm assuming most of you know what this is, but in case you don't: A gestalt character is a character that gains levels in two (or more) different classes at the same time. At 1st level, you can pick two different classes and get the features of both. Likewise, when you gain a level, you get to choose two different classes to increase your level in. For example, you can be a fighter/wizard who gains levels in both classes every time they level up.
What I'm doing in this thread is deliberately looking at a way to do a gestalt character differently. So, you no longer get that second class level "for free", but have to purchase it with XP. This isn't really a gestalt anymore, not quite, but once the XP fee has been paid it's going to look a lot like one.
Da Rules?
Here's the core rules:
Players can still multiclass as normal, which is important. You don't automatically have to be 20th level in any one class to be a 20th level character.
When you gain a level, you can instead gestalt into another class, raising your level in that class without raising your character level.
Since gestalting doesn't increase your level, the XP cost to gain a level doesn't increase.
While gestalting doesn't increase your level, it is otherwise treated like multiclassing. You must meet the same restrictions, and gain the same proficiencies.
You still can't gestalt subclasses. If you want to mix and match subclasses, you'll need additional homebrew.
You can gestalt into as many classes as you like. You can actually be 1st level in every class (3300 XP cost, 11 * 300), and your non-gestalt party members will only be 4th level.
You cannot gestalt into a class level that is higher than your character level. If you are 3rd level, you can't gestalt into the 4th level of a class. You must fully level up first.
There is no distinction between "real" class levels and gestalt class levels. Things like HP gain are affected, but you still count as being that level of that class.
Once you hit 20th level, you can spend epic boons to continue to gestalt into other classes.
Because your character level does not increase:
As noted above, it takes the same amount of XP to level up again, instead of increasing, see below for more detail.
Your proficiency bonus does not increase.
You don't gain hit points or hit dice normally (though see below).
Spell slots/caster level gets wonky, see below.
We'll look into some of the particulars noted above. Some of these will depend on what rules you're using for gestalt characters. No such official rules exist, but I've thoroughly (perhaps too thoroughly) explored the subject and various options for gestalt characters here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M1klFB07A7zeulumCZ6jqyd2XM8qkk2LaMVfC0sk_UY/edit?usp=sharing).
XP Cost
As noted above, the XP cost to advance does not increase after you gestalt. A 3rd level character, for example, has 900 XP and needs 2700 XP to advance to 4th level. This means they need to gain 1800 XP to advance. They can instead choose to gestalt into another class without gaining a level, and thus still only need 1800 XP to advance to 4th level. To put it another way, with 3600 XP (2 * 1800) they can gestalt once and then go up to 4th level.
This does add some cost/benefit analysis to your character advancement. You can have more class levels for a smaller XP cost by gestalting as early and often as you can, but this comes at the cost of your overall level progression. You're never prevented from fully advancing to 20th level, but it will take a lot longer (and the campaign might not run that long). On the other hand, if you wait until you're a high level before you gestalt, it will be much more expensive to do so.
One of the consequences of this is that players will be encouraged to dip early, and not very far. Getting Cunning Action or Action Surge on any build won't be too expensive, but getting Aura of Protection will be a lot more expensive. Thus, this allows players to grab low level class features that they want, but makes higher level features more prohibitive.
The minimum XP cost to raise every class to 20 is 3,798,000 XP. By comparison, it only costs 355,000 XP, less than 1/10, to get from 1 to 20 without gestalting. As noted, waiting to gestalt increases the XP cost to do so, so you want to immediately gestalt all classes to 1st level, and only then raise your character level to 2nd, and so on. However, the epic boons at 20th level only cost 30,000 XP, which is less than the cost to level up from 15th level and onward. Thus, once you hit 15th level, you want to continue without gestalting all the way to 20th level, then spend epic boons to raise your other classes to 20. There's also a similar oddity where it costs less XP to advance at 11th level than it does at 9th or 10th, so once you reach 9th level it's better to skip to 11th without gestalting.
I want to stress that whiteroom analysis looks a lot better than actual practice. Yes, you can get everything, technically speaking, but will you? Pretend that each campaign has an XP cap, only a certain amount of XP will ever be handed out (which is true, as the campaign will end at some point). For most campaigns, the XP cap doesn't even allow you to get to 20th level. For those that do, the less you gestalt, the sooner you will get there. And in general, the less you gestalt, the more likely you are to actually make it to 20. The only real problem is how many classes have their features frontloaded.
Hit Points and Hit Dice
I prefer to work things out in such a way that it doesn't matter what order you do something in. Since you can roll for HP, this makes it tricky, but I've found a solution that is "good enough" by yielding the same average HP. When you gain a real level up, you gain HP as normal, but when you gain a gestalt level in a class, you instead gain HP based on that class's hit die:
For a d6, you get no HP.
For a d8, you get +1 HP.
For a d10, you get +2 HP.
For a d12, you get +3 HP.
This works out to the same average HP regardless of what order you gain class levels, and doesn't distinguish between "real" levels and gestalt levels. The only thing that affects your final average is what class you started as at 1st level.
You always have a number of hit dice equal to your character level. Thus, gestalting doesn't give you more hit dice. You can, however, replace a smaller hit die with a larger one, even retroactively. A wizard that gestalts into barbarian can replace their d6 with a d12. Likewise, a barbarian that gestalts into fighter, then later gains a wizard level, can retroactively take the fighter's hit die instead of the wizard's.
Again, this means you always end up with 20d12 hit dice if you gestalt 20 levels into every class, regardless of what order you do it in, or which class levels are "real" and which are gestalt levels.
Spell Slots and Caster Level
I know I'm going to catch flak for this, but the easiest way to do this is to count all class levels, real or gestalt, toward your caster level. This means you can technically be a 6th level caster at 1st level (by being 1st level in the 5 different full casters, as well as the two half casters), which would only cost you 1800 XP (start with 1 class, plus 6 * 300). Your non-gestalt party members will be 3rd level on the way to 4th. Keep in mind, though, that even though you have 3rd level spell slots, you still only know 1st level spells in each class.
The flip side of this is that your caster level is still capped at 20. This means that a 10th level wizard who gestalts 10 levels into cleric has all the spell slots they're ever going to get.
There's a few different ways to handle spell slots and caster level, but those are a different discussion. An alternative would be to cap your caster level at your character level, with the "extra" caster levels only being applied once you raise your character level.
Would you use this?
There's a potential for abuse due to the low cost of gestalting early on and how many classes frontload their features, but this isn't really a new problem and already existed with the standard multiclassing. It's debatable whether this is a bug or a feature, though, as it does make it easier for players to grab character-defining abilities quickly and early before settling in to focus on a specific class. There's probably ways this could be tweaked or improved, so I'd love to hear what you guys have to say.
My two initial thoughts are that we could put a cap on how many times you can gestalt (e.g. once per level), or make each subsequent gestalt level cost more XP that resets when you gain a real level, discouraging wide builds such as dipping one level into every class. Another idea might be that (pre-20, at least) you have to spend a real level to multiclass into a class before you can spend gestalt levels to improve that class, thus each new class you want to gestalt into necessitates increasing your character level, and thus the cost to gestalt.