Elusive + Cloak of Displacement = attacks always have disadvantage?

[Greywander]

Elusive is a high level class feature that makes it so attacks against you can't be at advantage.

The Cloak of Displacement is a magic item that makes attacks against you have disadvantage.

Normally, if you have a source of both advantage and disadvantage, they cancel out. Thus, you could mitigate an enemy wearing a Cloak of Displacement, or otherwise giving disadvantage on attack rolls against them, by getting advantage. But if you combine this with Elusive, does that mean that, no matter what a creature does, they will always be at disadvantage?

And yes, I'm aware that the Cloak has a clause the the disadvantage stops working if you get hit. We're pretending that doesn't happen, since, you know, disadvantage.

The other way of reading Elusive is that the roll, itself, can't be at advantage, but it still allows a source of advantage to cancel disadvantage.

Which is correct?

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

Huh, that's an interesting synergy. From the wording of elusive, I'd say attacks are always at disadvantage against you.

From the way it's written "no attack roll has advantage against you" means that the advantage they'd normally get just straight up doesn't exist, not that it gets cancelled. Since the advantage wasn't there in the first place, it can't cancel out the cloak's disadvantage.

[Potato_Priest]

Ask your DM, because that’s what matters.

Also, I’d suggest using the blur or greater invisibility spells rather than the cloak of displacement, as both are more useful as long term sources of disadvantage, since they don’t get countered by being hit.

[Greywander]

Don't have a D&D group at the moment, we're playing VtM right now, but I like to come back and theorycraft.

Blur and Invisibility also use up concentration, so it's easier to spare an attunement slot for the Cloak than use up your only concentration slot for a temporary spell. Besides, the disadvantage comes back at the start of your next turn. IMO, the Cloak is a better defensive item than armor +3, although the two need not be mutually exclusive. :smallwink:

But yeah, I don't know that many people realize how tanky a rogue can be. Evasion and Uncanny Dodge also help, as well as getting proficiency in WIS saves. With Resilient (CON), you can be proficient in all three strong saves. Armor and a shield +3 (via dip or feat), with the Cloak of Displacement and Elusive, and you're very hard to hit, let alone kill.

[Keravath]

The wording of elusive is the following:

"No attack roll has advantage against you while you aren't incapacitated."

This is very specific to the attack roll, not to gaining advantage. It doesn't say that something can't get advantage against you, only that no attack roll has advantage. So Advantage could cancel disadvantage normally but if the circumstances would result in an attack roll with advantage then it doesn't happen.

So when combined with a cloak of displacement, if the attacker were unseen and would normally have advantage then that would cancel the disadvantage of the cloak since it would not result in an attack roll with advantage. On the other hand, an unseen attacker without the target wearing a cloak of displacement would normally have advantage and in this case the advantage would be negated by elusive.

[Kyutaru]

Looking at things from the RAW never works. So screw that approach. Instead, let's try and figure out what's actually happening here. I would think Elusive means you can't receive the advantage because the target is never vulnerable or prone to being taken advantage of. They are quite nimble and impossible to corner or trap. Meanwhile, the displacement puts disadvantage on you because it's very hard to hit a constantly blurred target who isn't truly where he appears to be. Elusive doesn't exactly factor in here because the target was already impossible to gain a vulnerability against. Which leaves us with whether the advantage can cancel the displacement -- I say it does because although the target is difficult to pin down it can be seen as not as difficult to adjust oneself magically or otherwise to the blurring form. You're still left with a target who is notoriously slippery, and Elusive is still useful if you counter the displacement with true seeing, but it doesn't incur perpetual disadvantage. For the reason that stacking in this edition is inherently weakened in all other things, so too should stacking here be rendered non-effective. One ability has nothing in common with the other and no synergy should rightly exist. Should you manage to thwart the cloak you have thwarted the cloak irrespective of any other defenses. The purpose of the advantage/disadvantage cancelling is precisely to prevent Disadvantage-stacking in the first place without making it feel like there is no counter to it.

[Tanarii]

But yeah, I don't know that many people realize how tanky a rogue can be. Evasion and Uncanny Dodge also help, as well as getting proficiency in WIS saves. With Resilient (CON), you can be proficient in all three strong saves. Armor and a shield +3 (via dip or feat), with the Cloak of Displacement and Elusive, and you're very hard to hit, let alone kill.I don't disagree that Rogues don't get some awesome damage mitigation abilities, but Uncanny Dodge only works against one attack. And it means you got hit in the first place. It's a skirmishes ability, not a tanking one.

But they're not bad in a line of combat after level 5, where (hopefully) the enemy attacks are spread across the line. Especially if they're standing next to a protection FS warrior. If they have good Dex and Con of course. And Rogues already have really good OAs if they're in a front line, due to Sneak Attack working on with OAs and allies on one or both sides. Probably also want Booming Blade for stickiness, and Acrobatics. Someone in a front line without good anti-grapple defense is going to be grappled and pulled out of the line.

[Rukelnikov]

Elusive makes it so that the roll can't be at advantage, not that your enemies can't gain advantage, so while a very good feature, it doesn't make all attacks against you with disadvantage while wearing CoD.

[Potato_Priest]

I don't disagree that Rogues don't get some awesome damage mitigation abilities, but Uncanny Dodge only works against one attack. And it means you got hit in the first place. It's a skirmishes ability, not a tanking one.

It’s definitely not as good for tanking as something like rage or wildshape, but if you’re going to call the rogue’s defensive abilities skirmisher’s abilities rather than tank abilities, you’re going to have to do the same for the fighter and paladin, who never even get something as good as uncanny dodge for mitigating damage from attacks. Their ac can be a few points better, but that’s something a single feat (moderately armored) or a wide variety of dips will completely fix.

[Tanarii]

Their ac can be a few points better, but that’s something a single feat (moderately armored) or a wide variety of dips will completely fix.
Rogue typically rock a AC 13 to start, with AC 15-16 through T2. Paladin and Fighter Tanks usually start with AC 18, and move up to AC 20 by level 7.

[Rukelnikov]

Rogue typically rock a AC 13 to start, with AC 15-16 through T2. Paladin and Fighter Tanks usually start with AC 18, and move up to AC 20 by level 7.

While I'd say rogues star with AC 15, studded + 16 Dex, Ftr and Pally also get better HP and ways of replenishing it, and on the case of the Ftr most subclasses also give them active defense

[Potato_Priest]

Rogue typically rock a AC 13 to start, with AC 15-16 through T2. Paladin and Fighter Tanks usually start with AC 18, and move up to AC 20 by level 7.

If the rogues take moderately armored though, they’ll keep up with the others, getting 18 when they take the feat and 19 whenever they get half plate.

Also, battlemasters, champions, and arcane arcane archers get nothing for defense.

[Tanarii]

While I'd say rogues star with AC 15, studded + 16 Dex,
Rogue start with leather. It takes at least one level, and sometimes 2, to be able to afford Studded. And typically starting with 16 is a pretty huge assumption in my experience. But I should have said AC 13-14 start, with a probably bump in T2.

(Also I left out defensive fighting style, which a tank might very well have.)

Overall, it's generally about a 3-5 pt AC difference for armored warrior tanks in the tiers the majority of the game is played. They (and HA clerics) tend to be noticeably better at it.

[JNAProductions]

Two things:

1) Once you get hit once, you stop imposing disadvantage until the start of your next turn. So bear that in mind.

2) As others have said, the ROLL cannot be at advantage. I would interpret that as meaning that they can have advantage (to cancel out disadvantage or whatnot) but, if they have advantage and no disadvantage when attacking you, they roll only one d20.

[Rukelnikov]

If the rogues take moderately armored though, they’ll keep up with the others, getting 18 when they take the feat and 19 whenever they get half plate.

Also, battlemasters, champions, and arcane arcane archers get nothing for defense.

Battlemasters can get Parry, Arcane Archers are not tanks since they are a ranged class. Champions don't get much tbh the only get a second style which almost guarantees Defense Style will be picked, and very late they get a pseudo regen.

Even then, the Rogue need to spend 3 ASI's and forsake dual weilding (which is major DPR loss) to be 1 point below what most Paladins or Fighters get by lvl 5 or so. Paladins can increase their AC by 2 more points, get Lay on Hands, Aura of Protection, and many other defensive/healing spells. Fighters get active defenses in the forms of:


Battlemaster: Parry (not a great defensive boost but it adds up)
Cavalier: Warding Maneuver
EK: Shield, Blur, Mirror Image, etc.
Samurai: Fighting Spirit


Its only the AA and the PDK that don't get anything defensive, and the Champion that while gettting bonuses they come very very late.

The main difference is the amount of HP each class has, Fighter get 2+1/lvl more HP, Second Wind, and 1 more ASI.

[Potato_Priest]

Even then, the Rogue need to spend 3 ASI's and forsake dual weilding (which is major DPR loss) to be 1 point below what most Paladins or Fighters get by lvl 5 or so. Paladins can increase their AC by 2 more points, get Lay on Hands, Aura of Protection, and many other defensive/healing spells. Fighters get active defenses in the forms of:


The main difference is the amount of HP each class has, Fighter get 2+1/lvl more HP, Second Wind, and 1 more ASI.
I have never seen a battlemaster take parry as a maneuver, but that may be because our group’s never noticed it before.

How does the rogue need to spend 3 ASIs? They start with light armor, get moderately armored (1 ASI, though it does increase dex) and are only one point behind already, since most fighters/pallies will take dueling if going sword and board. And while hp and second wind are certainly handy, I would not say they’re better than uncanny dodge. Remember that while uncanny dodge can only protect against one attack, if only one attack hits that’s all it needs to do, and you can decide to use it after knowing the outcome of the attack roll.

[Kyutaru]

Okay the discussion is being sidetracked by the "what can tank" people. We get it, everyone can be a tank in different ways. Wizards do it with spells, rogues do it by dodging and eluding, fighters do it with heavy armor. They all have advantages and disadvantages even if you were to end up with identical AC. The spells only work when you have time to buff or aren't being hit with anti-magic. The rogue only works he's not flat-flooted or held to annihilate his dex bonus. The fighter only works when it's not a touch attack. Classes are special the end let's move on.

[Rukelnikov]

I have never seen a battlemaster take parry as a maneuver, but that may be because our group’s never noticed it before.

How does the rogue need to spend 3 ASIs? They start with light armor, get moderately armored (1 ASI, though it does increase dex) and are only one point behind already, since most fighters/pallies will take dueling if going sword and board. And while hp and second wind are certainly handy, I would not say they’re better than uncanny dodge. Remember that while uncanny dodge can only protect against one attack, if only one attack hits that’s all it needs to do, and you can decide to use it after knowing the outcome of the attack roll.

Yeah, its only 1 ASI, I forgot with MAM they would only need 16 Dex instead of 20.

I haven't seen a BM take Parry either, but tbh, we only had 1 in our table, and while it looks useful at lvl 3 where 1d8+3 is siginificant damage mitigation, it falls off very fast.