Help my Vengeance (Paladin) against the nerfs.

[TheG]

Hello! here's another thread on character building/optimization for my Vengeance Paladin, due to the nerf axe being pulled another time from the dm. A short recap:

Magic, an spellcasting in particular do no function well. Spellcasting is almost impossible, exception for (as we learned on the last session) natural magic [Druids and Rangers, casually the "natural" magic user of the party is the less experienced player with the less optimized character, a Horizon Walker Ranger]

Supernatural class abilities seem to work, unless when don't work: my paladin successfully used Divine Health, Smite, Divine Sense and Lay on Hands. On the last fight i was about to use my Channel Divinity: Vow of Enmity ... and it didn't function, while the Grave Cleric (that's almost useless, 'cose spellcasting is impossible) used his C.D.: Path to the Grave the turn before.

Due to impossible spellcasting i choose to multiclass TWO SESSION AGO at the 7th level to Bard, to stockpile spell slots for the smites and gain nice "mundane" abilities that can't be nerfed. But AFTER THE FIGHT [that almost killed two of us] the dm said: "you have too much smites [i used 3 lv2 smites]. From now the Multiclassing between caster classes is forbidden" adducing afterwards some roleplay/lore **** between source of powers that can't be mixed, even inside Divine - Arcane and Natural magic classes. LOL, he made me rebuild the last level (the 7th of Bard 1), but i managed to allow me to rebuild the whole character instead, but mantaining class and archetype.

Multiclassing, outside of spellcasting classes is still allowed, but the minimum ability score requirement needed to multiclass is 15 instead of 13.

Party Composition: we have a Greatsword GWM Hexblade Warlock with (now) Eldritch Smite (Experienced player, his comment was: "i built the char. for the Darkness combo, ****.), a Grave Cleric pratically without spellcasing that with 18 Constitution stays at 30ft. from the nearest enemy (at least he used his Path to the Grave twice on my target), a Dual Rapier Horizon Walker Un-Errated/UA Ranger (that in the last battle preferred to slay a unconscious enemy with two attacks [npcs have death saves as the pc do], instead of helping me fighting solo against two guys and with 10 hp) and finally a Valor Bard that started 1 level higher then the other characters (starting bard and giving up multiclassing had this bonus from the DM), with 18 Dexterity and Medium Armor Master (He started with 16 Dex, at least), 20 charisma but without Inspiring Leader and with Spellcasting imparied (at this point you can roll a character on a random 1-100% table, basically).

Now, after having laughed or, in my case, cried, give me an help.

Rolled stats 17-16-13-12-9-8

My Current Build is:


Class: Vengeance Paladin 7
Race: Human Variant
Ability Scores: STR 17+1(Human)+2(4th Level) | DEX 9+1(Human) | CON 13+1(Resilient) | INT 8 | WIS 12 | CHA 16
Hp: 60, Armor Class: 16 (ChainMail), Saves: STR +8 | DEX +3 | CON +8 | INT +2 | WIS +7 | CHA +9
Feats: Resilient (Con) | Fighting Style: Great Weapon Fighting (No Tweet-rata: it works on smites) | Weapon: Greatsword
DPR vs. AC 20 (another home rule, when an attack roll ties with the AC, defense wins): 10.65 (no smite) / 25.92 (smite).


Now, due to being basically tied to remain in the Paladin class to gain spell slots to fuel Smites, some thoughts come to mind.

On multiclassing:


Maybe i don't need 16 on charisma (those juicy saves :,( - the aura of protection works only on myself, however), if i don't multiclass
Is the Smite Galore still a viable strategy (even if it's very fun to me, so i'm a bit biased) remaining full paladin?
What's the trade between fighter (3 levels for champion) and Paladin, is it worth it?



On fighting style:


Maybe i should optimize the use of the 7th level Restless Avenger, and find something to use my bonus action now/when spells (hunter's mark) and the Vow of Enmity are out.
With Polearm Master is better to get first +2 Strength or Sentinel?
Should i Prioritize Defense (Tank for the Party) or YOLO/Bonaparte Style and stab as many mook i can get (Best defence is Attack)?
Which is more important? Saves or HP? (i fear that, even if magic is scarce, very bad thing could happen. but the majority of fights till now were mundane)


So i elaborated some builds, here in random order, to discuss with you. As a side note that i need just 1200xp (two session at maximum) to reach 8th level, so i need to wait a little to get the "progression" missing tile.

--------- High Save, Balanced Build


Class: Vengeance Paladin 7
Race: Human Variant
Ability Scores: STR 17+1(Human) | DEX 9+1(Human) | CON 13+1(Resilient) | INT 8 | WIS 12 | CHA 16
Hp: 60, Armor Class: 18 (ChainMail+Shield), Saves: STR +7 | DEX +3 | CON +8 | INT +2 | WIS +7 | CHA +9
Feats: Resilient (Con), Polearm Master | Fighting Style: Dueling | Weapon: Quarterstaff
DPR vs. AC 20: 9.625 (no smite) / 23.8 (smite)
Progression: Paladin8: +2 Strength, Paladin 12: Sentinel?/+2 Con
Pros/Cons: + Higher AC + Restless Avenger Synergy +Optimizes Improved Smite @11 = Same saves = Retains multiclassing capability - Lower damage - Bad Smite Efficiency


--------- Mid Save, High Attack


Class: Vengeance Paladin 7
Race: Human Variant
Ability Scores: STR 17+1(Human)+2(4th Level) | DEX 9+1(Human) | CON 13 | INT 8 | WIS 12 | CHA 16
Hp: 53, Armor Class: 18 (ChainMail+Shield), Saves: STR +8 | DEX +3 | CON +4 | INT +2 | WIS +7 | CHA +9
Feats: Resilient (Con), Polearm Master | Fighting Style: Dueling | Weapon: Quarterstaff
DPR vs. AC 20: 12.2 (no smite) / 28.4 (smite)
Progression: Paladin8: Resilient (Con), Paladin 12: Sentinel/+2 Con
Pros/Cons: + Higher AC + Restless Avenger Synergy +Optimizes Improved Smite @11 + Higher damage = Retains multiclassing capability - Bad Smite Efficiency - Low HP - Lower Con Save - Bad Smite Economy


--------- Mid Save, Tanker Build


Class: Vengeance Paladin 7
Race: Half Elf
Ability Scores: STR 17+1(Half Elf) | DEX 9+1(Half Elf) | CON 16 | INT 8 | WIS 12 | CHA 15+2(Half Elf)
Hp: 66, Armor Class: 18 (ChainMail+Shield), Saves: STR +7 | DEX +2 | CON +5 | INT +1 | WIS +6 | CHA +7
Polearm Master | Fighting Style: Dueling | Weapon: Quarterstaff
DPR vs. AC 20: 9.625 (no smite) / 23.8 (smite)
Progression: Paladin8: +2 Strenght, Paladin 12: Sentinel?/+2 Con
Pros/Cons: + Higher AC + Higher HP + Restless Avenger Synergy +Optimizes Improved Smite @11 = Retains multiclassing capability - Lower damage - Bad Smite Efficiency - Slightly Lower Saves


--------- Low Save, Tanker + Attack Build


Class: Vengeance Paladin 7
Race: Variant Human
Ability Scores: STR 17+1(Human)+2(4th Level) | DEX 9+1(Human) | CON 16 | INT 8 | WIS 12 | CHA 13
Hp: 66, Armor Class: 18 (ChainMail+Shield), Saves: STR +6 | DEX +1 | CON +4 | INT +0 | WIS +5 | CHA +5
Polearm Master | Fighting Style: Dueling | Weapon: Quarterstaff
DPR vs. AC 20: 12.2 (no smite) / 28.4 (smite)
Progression: Paladin8: Sentinel/+2 Con, Paladin 12: +2 Con
Pros/Cons: + Higher AC + Higher HP +Higher Damage + Restless Avenger Sinergy +Optimizes Improved Smite @11 - Lower saves - Loses multiclassing capability - Bad Smite Efficiency - Low charisma for roleplay


--------- Low Save, Maximum Attack (Crysis, lol)


Class: Vengeance Paladin 7
Race: Variant Human
Ability Scores: STR 17+1(Human)+2(4th Level) | DEX 9+1(Human) | CON 16 | INT 8 | WIS 12 | CHA 13
Hp: 66, Armor Class: 16 (ChainMail), Saves: STR +6 | DEX +1 | CON +4 | INT +0 | WIS +5 | CHA +5
Polearm Master | Fighting Style: Great Weapon Fighting| Weapon: Glaive (10ft. reach)
DPR vs. AC 20: 12.24 (no smite) / 33.4(smite)
Progression: Paladin8: Sentinel/+2 Con, Paladin 12: +2 Con
Pros/Cons: + Higher HP +Maximum Damage + Optimizes Restless Avenger +Optimizes Improved Smite @11 = Same Smite Efficiency = Same AC - Lower saves - Loses multiclassing capability - Low charisma for roleplay


I think that the first thing to settle is if multiclassing to Fighter is vital or not, and when. The second is how much juice/saves from Aura of protection i need, and then what is needed for the party composition. However i really like to make mooks explode under the smites and i'm a roleplay heavy, so maybe a bit of charisma is needed (could i leave it low - giving the persuasion rolling to the bard - and roleplay anyways?) What do you think?



Thanks

[Keravath]

Run away and find another DM?

If you aren't having fun and all the DM wants to do is nerf things arbitrarily without in game justification for the way things work in the game world AND the DM didn't let you know that things would be functioning differently then I'd, personally, just move on unless the DM is open to discussing the changes he has made. Game balance is based around having all the abilities available for all the classes. At the moment, it sounds like a battlemaster or champion fighter would be the least nerfed (and thus the most powerful) simply due to the arbitrary changes imposed by the DM.

[Wildarm]

No idea what is up with your DM. Personally, I'd be looking for another table as changing the rules on a whim is not fun. The DM has FULL control of the battle. Want to make it a bit tougher for the team? Throw bigger monsters at them or make it tactically more difficult. Amazing what a bit of ranged backup or difficult terrain can do to change the challenge of an encounter.

Pure Paladin is just fine to level 12(13 if you can somehow cast find greater steed). Then switch over to battlemaster 7. You'll have a solid melee focused build with that. Sword and board tank with enough slots to smite spam in 1-2 battles a day.

With a complete rebuild, I'd say you're better off with something like this to future proof against more magic nerfs:

Wood Elf Battlemaster X
Archery Fighting Style
12 Str, 20 Dex, 14 Con, 9 Int, 17 Wis, 8 Cha
Feats: +1/+1 Dex/Con, Sharpshooter
Grab Res(Wis) at Level 8 to round out your saves and wisdom stat.

You'll be a solid DPS machine with your longbow. Have maneuvers to help control the battlefield and add damage. Decent HP and have all the primary saves covered(Not as good as a Paladin but very good for a fighter).

Take perception(elf) and stealth and be a very capable scout. I'd be tempted to dip a single level of Rogue to get expertise in both.

[jaappleton]

You need to fix your DM, not your build.

"Oh you can smite too much".

Boo effin' hoo. DM needs to stop trying to make it Their Monsters VS the Party and instead just be the referee between the world and the players.

[TheG]

I'll try to answer to everyone. First thanks for your support :D
Playing the campaign till now was sufficiently captivating and i enjoyed it this far, with this theme of not knowing when and why magic does not function, and at least i retained most of my abilities (i couldn't immagine how feels the cleric player in this environment). However it was bad that, during the fight, i found that one of my signature ability was off, while the same for the cleric was not, and after the end of the session hearing the master saying "you have too much smites, i shouldn't allow the paladin from the beginning [i convinced him to allow me to make a paladin to not have two identical build with the warlock]", and then "multiclassing between caster is forbidden".

During the debriefing i asked why my channel divinity was not working, maybe 'cose there was no followers of my diety in the region (excluding me), and instead the Cleric had followers of his god, but the dm answered that "i know the cause"...but i don't. hahahha
However, for the other players is not a big hassle. Everyone is single classed, except me, and going to "talk" to the dm i fear it could lead only to other kind of nerfs or some kind of "biased" negative playing trough me....he is a friend of all of us, but he's touchy.

Yhea #rpghorrorstories

[Waazraath]

I'll try to answer to everyone. First thanks for your support :D
Playing the campaign till now was sufficiently captivating and i enjoyed it this far, with this theme of not knowing when and why magic does not function, and at least i retained most of my abilities (i couldn't immagine how feels the cleric player in this environment). However it was bad that, during the fight, i found that one of my signature ability was off, while the same for the cleric was not, and after the end of the session hearing the master saying "you have too much smites, i shouldn't allow the paladin from the beginning [i convinced him to allow me to make a paladin to not have two identical build with the warlock]", and then "multiclassing between caster is forbidden".

During the debriefing i asked why my channel divinity was not working, maybe 'cose there was no followers of my diety in the region (excluding me), and instead the Cleric had followers of his god, but the dm answered that "i know the cause"...but i don't. hahahha
However, for the other players is not a big hassle. Everyone is single classed, except me, and going to "talk" to the dm i fear it could lead only to other kind of nerfs or some kind of "biased" negative playing trough me....he is a friend of all of us, but he's touchy.

Yhea #rpghorrorstories

I'll refrain from saying unfriendly things, since he's a friend yours, but he's really not qualified to be a DM. I agree with the other posters here. You aint gonna solve the problem by changing your build, cause the build isn't the problem. It's just waiting for the next arbritrary nerf. If talking to him isn't an option (which is a bit weird, tbh), you can either 1) accept that these things happen in his games and try not to be annoyed or 2) find another game.

[Corran]

You need to fix your DM, not your build.

"Oh you can smite too much".

Boo effin' hoo. DM needs to stop trying to make it Their Monsters VS the Party and instead just be the referee between the world and the players.
The DM is probably having trouble with encounter building and is trying to fix difficulty on the fly by limiting the pc's powers.

@OP: I don't see much point in putting effort into rebuilding your character. Say you grab fighter levels. The DM puts the evil wizard boss against the group as a solo fight, you use action surge and help bring the wizard down at round 1, then you are back into the DM saying that multiclassing is op and it's banned again. Or creates new rules for it on the spot, rules that impose a penalty of some kind. Or action surge recharges on a long rest now. Or every time you use it you take one level of exhaustion. Or you take a -5 penalty on attacks because you attack very fast during that round. Or whatever else. If you want to stick around to that game, try to enjoy the non combat side of it, as the combat side of it doesn't sound exciting and is probably rigged. It would be helpful though to sit the DM down and help him learn to set up encounters, because in all likelihood that's the culprit here. The fact that the DM did not try to deal with this problem by any other way than messing with the player options (such as fudging rolls) is not encouraging.

[Kintar]

Ya, don't bother trying to make another character, find a new DM. When DMs employ the shifting rules, sometimes a Nerf, sometimes it works as designed, you'll never be happy. Your new char will figure out some tactic that works and then the DM will change something or announce some unknown new rule to counteract it. It's best just to hop off the crazy train and find somewhere to play the game as intended.

[Rukelnikov]

Fighting the DM is pointless, give up on optimizing because anything you do that he considers "imbalanced" will be nerfed, so just go straight Paladin.

[DarkKnightJin]

I second calling the DM's BS on arbitrarily nerfing abilities, especially when it's a gods-damned crapshoot on whether or not half your class abilities will work at all..

Tell him this isn't fun for you, and that you'd rather retire the character than continue this BS any longer.
Stuff like multiclassing not being available is something that should *definitely* be disclosed before any dice are rolled.
Not something you allow 1 session, and then axe the next.

[suplee215]

I do wonder if you are maybe playing a different game than everyone else at the table. In which case the best course of action is to find a different table (although also the good old fashion "just talk to see how everyone feels and see if there is some middle ground" is never bad). It seems like you are trying to optimize your character to extreme levels and in a game where only 1 player does that it can be difficult for balance. Either the DM sends out monsters that will destroy the rest of the party to be on the level of that one player or that one player does all the work and outshines everyone and either way no one has fun. Just out of curiosity was the type of playstyle and whether there was a focus on combat or roleplaying or other such things touched on in a session 0?

[1Pirate]

Yeah, I've got to 2nd and 3rd what most people are saying here. Your DM's likely to nerf any effective build you come up with.

Pretty sure if you go fighter you'll one-turn K.O. something and suddenly action surge will be long-rest, or your superiority dice get reduced, or your improved crit only works once per round.

If you want to stick with it or press the issue without talking to him, build a Ranger or Druid with a different conclave or circle than the ones you already have.

[TyGuy]

You need to fix your DM, not your build.

"Oh you can smite too much".

Boo effin' hoo. DM needs to stop trying to make it Their Monsters VS the Party and instead just be the referee between the world and the players.

This isn't a red flag, it's a giant billboard that screams DM vs player/party.

When a DM doesn't like to see players succeed or characters have a few strengths they are not interested in you having a good time, or they're clueless. Either way, talk it over if you must but this sounds like an issue that won't be resolved with getting your play tested publisher approved abilities back. Your DM will probably just overpower the encounters and take it out on you in other ways.

Give em a chance, run away fast if they don't improve.

[Rukelnikov]

This isn't a red flag, it's a giant billboard that screams DM vs player/party.

When a DM doesn't like to see players succeed or characters have a few strengths they are not interested in you having a good time, or they're clueless. Either way, talk it over if you must but this sounds like an issue that won't be resolved with getting your play tested publisher approved abilities back. Your DM will probably just overpower the encounters and take it out on you in other ways.

Give em a chance, run away fast if they don't improve.

That's not necesarilly the case, it may also be player vs table, as Suplee suggested.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Explain to him that you're looking to play D&D 5th edition, and that's not what he's running.

Then go find yourself a real game.

[suplee215]

That's not necesarilly the case, it may also be player vs table, as Suplee suggested.

I didn't exactly mean that but I think that is fair. More so I won't be surprised (not knowing any of the players in real life and I do not mean this as a negative to the OP) that the OP views DND as the DM vs. the Player and so makes his builds accordingly and the DM has to balance that with a group who views it more as a collected story arc or whatever. And again this is not meant to call out the OP. It is just you mention several times that other players are the "least optimized" which means you at the very least thought about optimization when making your character. Which is ok, but as I stated a DM can have a very tough job if only 1 member of the party plays that way. Although I also do think the DM was in the wrong for making these changes at the last minute without talking or explaining things as a group or to you personally. (Then again, doesn't it seem like 90% of DND problems are communications issues?)

[Aimeryan]

The OP was playing a straight Paladin until a level ago, could not use spellcasting, could not use channel divinity. He tried multiclassing to Bard so he could have more fuel for the one thing he was allowed to do in his class (Smite). How was he trying to optimise too much??

This isn't a case of optimiser in a table of bumpkins, this is strictly the DM calling BS on anything and everything that isn't 'I hit'.

My advise for TheG is as others have mentioned - play something to maximise fun outside of combat (bearing in mind the limitations already imposed), because the combat is only going to go pretty much exactly as the DM wants which means anything really fun is just going to get noped. Since spellcasting is out, I would probably play something like a ranged Battlemaster Assassin, with Sharpshooter. You should be effective in combat with the current limitations without any one thing in your kit standing out, and with expertise you should be quite skilled outside of combat with fun things you can do.

[bid]

ranged Battlemaster Assassin
Nope, surprise won't happen.

OP, there's no point in trying to outsmart the GM. Discuss with him to find his goals and how you can integrate with them.

[suplee215]

The OP was playing a straight Paladin until a level ago, could not use spellcasting, could not use channel divinity. He tried multiclassing to Bard so he could have more fuel for the one thing he was allowed to do in his class (Smite). How was he trying to optimise too much??


This might be my own personal bias showing but whenever someone refers to another player's character as "less optimized character" I just wonder if that's the case of 2 players with different play styles. That said, this DM does seem to be running a very strange campaign that does seem built to hogtie players. But I could also see it as the result of an ambitious DM who thinks he has a cool idea for a story and doesn't really think of how it'll affect gameplay until after the magic is lost from the world and stuff (and as the DM he is making it up as he goes along so any inconsistency could be from that or a story point yet to be discovered). Or the DM could just be a giant **** who doesn't like anything that falls into his own classification of "OVERPOWERED!!!!!". I have no idea, but I do think a large part of why most DND games go south is due to a lack of communication over what people want out of the game (which is why I asked about what things were talked about in the session 0).

[Gamer92131]

Sounds like whatever you do, the DM will nerf you. I would say find another table.

[Spore]

Run away and dont turn back.

[AdAstra]

Ok this DM definitely has a tenuous grasp on what it means to balance a party (unless they're doing it for purely story reasons, which is an odd thing not to tell players before the game), but it at least doesn't seem like they have it out for you specifically. No spellcasting is pretty much a middle finger to the cleric, since at the very least you and the hexblade have smites. If you are really set on continuing to play their game, then you've got to recognize that trying to game the system isn't going to work. If the DM thinks you're too powerful, you will get nerfed, internal consistency be damned. If you are set on trying to optimize, maybe try optimizing for versatility rather than raw power? Being able to do more types of things seems less likely to set your DM off than being able to do anything really well.

[Jerrykhor]

Having a problem with Paladin damage output is not wrong, but nerfing it halfway during the campaign is.

My response to him would be, "You knew what paladins can do all along, so why nerf it now?'

Also, i strongly believe DMing brings out the true nature in people. If he is a nasty person, his DMing shows, and i dont think your friend is a good person. Remind him that DnD is a social game, and you are all here to have fun, DM included. And its not fun if your PC abilities is completely based on the DMs whim and fancy. If he can't see that, then he is not a reasonable person.

[dragoeniex]

Also, i strongly believe DMing brings out the true nature in people. If he is a nasty person, his DMing shows, and i dont think your friend is a good person. Remind him that DnD is a social game, and you are all here to have fun, DM included. And its not fun if your PC abilities is completely based on the DMs whim and fancy. If he can't see that, then he is not a reasonable person.

I would be careful of slipping into "good person" mentality here. Faults and foibles do not always make a bad person or even friend. The pattern of interaction sounds detrimental, though, and that's worth considering.

If you can't talk through or work out anything here, or you feel like you constantly have to give up enjoyment to continue, stop. It's not worth the stress.

It's likely going to come down to finding a different way to enjoy the game (rebuild as a non-contested class, have a group discussion, throw focus on efficiency out the window...) or finding different ways to enjoy that relationship (not playing D&D under said DM). Or, if it is feeling toxic, walking away from both and finding more ways to enjoy your time.

There's not a blanket right/wrong answer here. The most important things are what you want to prioritize and the effects these sessions are having on you and your friend. Games are meant to bring more joy than tears.

[TheG]

Brace yourself for a multiquote


I'll refrain from saying unfriendly things, since he's a friend yours, but he's really not qualified to be a DM. I agree with the other posters here. You aint gonna solve the problem by changing your build, cause the build isn't the problem. It's just waiting for the next arbritrary nerf. If talking to him isn't an option (which is a bit weird, tbh), you can either 1) accept that these things happen in his games and try not to be annoyed or 2) find another game.

We are plotting to make a side mini campaign with another group... High-Op Lv14 Evil party against the fearun, should i call it catharsis?


The DM is probably having trouble with encounter building and is trying to fix difficulty on the fly by limiting the pc's powers.

@OP: I don't see much point in putting effort into rebuilding your character. Say you grab fighter levels. The DM puts the evil wizard boss against the group as a solo fight, you use action surge and help bring the wizard down at round 1, then you are back into the DM saying that multiclassing is op and it's banned again. Or creates new rules for it on the spot, rules that impose a penalty of some kind. Or action surge recharges on a long rest now. Or every time you use it you take one level of exhaustion. Or you take a -5 penalty on attacks because you attack very fast during that round. Or whatever else. If you want to stick around to that game, try to enjoy the non combat side of it, as the combat side of it doesn't sound exciting and is probably rigged. It would be helpful though to sit the DM down and help him learn to set up encounters, because in all likelihood that's the culprit here. The fact that the DM did not try to deal with this problem by any other way than messing with the player options (such as fudging rolls) is not encouraging.


Ya, don't bother trying to make another character, find a new DM. When DMs employ the shifting rules, sometimes a Nerf, sometimes it works as designed, you'll never be happy. Your new char will figure out some tactic that works and then the DM will change something or announce some unknown new rule to counteract it. It's best just to hop off the crazy train and find somewhere to play the game as intended.

Mhh encounter building could be, but he's totally free of kicking our asses in infinite ways.. for example: the last fight was: Me (Pal/Bard), the Warlock, the Ranger and the Cleric (aka the peasant with funny symbols); the Bard was missing from the session 'cose he had to leave beforehand. we were in a tavern talking to the drunk town's guard master that was saying something about thieves running around the city. he seemed suspect to me, due to the other villagers sustaining during the day that the city was practically crime-free. one was lying. i rolled insight, natural 20 +4. "he seems legit, and drunk". Fair enough. After a while we are attacked from outside with multiple crossbow bolts. and the DM said: "could you hand me some d8" d8? mhh i smell smite strange for a thief, hopefully not assassinate 'cose the broke the windows before shooting. about 40 damage/round from those, the warlock going down and bringing with him one of them, the Ranger giving an hand with a healing spirit that miraculously function, and me (with the help of the cleric's channel divinity, of course), slashing the other offender and remaing at 10hp. During the battle the drunk Capitain, moved crawling here and here, to finally spawn behind me and start attacking! WTF? *hopefully* (dm screen for the rescue) he missed twice and with the combined effort we brought him down. the aftermath: 120hp/each enemy, a 3.5 surprise round, the impossibile disguise/performance of the Guard Captain.

But the worse was: "sorry guys, maybe the encounter was a bit too easy, maybe i confused the stats of the npc with other ones". and "all the encounters are balanced so evenly that it's all about the dices". this one froze my blood.


I do wonder if you are maybe playing a different game than everyone else at the table. In which case the best course of action is to find a different table (although also the good old fashion "just talk to see how everyone feels and see if there is some middle ground" is never bad). It seems like you are trying to optimize your character to extreme levels and in a game where only 1 player does that it can be difficult for balance. Either the DM sends out monsters that will destroy the rest of the party to be on the level of that one player or that one player does all the work and outshines everyone and either way no one has fun. Just out of curiosity was the type of playstyle and whether there was a focus on combat or roleplaying or other such things touched on in a session 0?


Yeah, I've got to 2nd and 3rd what most people are saying here. Your DM's likely to nerf any effective build you come up with.
Pretty sure if you go fighter you'll one-turn K.O. something and suddenly action surge will be long-rest, or your superiority dice get reduced, or your improved crit only works once per round.
If you want to stick with it or press the issue without talking to him, build a Ranger or Druid with a different conclave or circle than the ones you already have.


I didn't exactly mean that but I think that is fair. More so I won't be surprised (not knowing any of the players in real life and I do not mean this as a negative to the OP) that the OP views DND as the DM vs. the Player and so makes his builds accordingly and the DM has to balance that with a group who views it more as a collected story arc or whatever. And again this is not meant to call out the OP. It is just you mention several times that other players are the "least optimized" which means you at the very least thought about optimization when making your character. Which is ok, but as I stated a DM can have a very tough job if only 1 member of the party plays that way. Although I also do think the DM was in the wrong for making these changes at the last minute without talking or explaining things as a group or to you personally. (Then again, doesn't it seem like 90% of DND problems are communications issues?)


The OP was playing a straight Paladin until a level ago, could not use spellcasting, could not use channel divinity. He tried multiclassing to Bard so he could have more fuel for the one thing he was allowed to do in his class (Smite). How was he trying to optimise too much??
This isn't a case of optimiser in a table of bumpkins, this is strictly the DM calling BS on anything and everything that isn't 'I hit'.
My advise for TheG is as others have mentioned - play something to maximise fun outside of combat (bearing in mind the limitations already imposed), because the combat is only going to go pretty much exactly as the DM wants which means anything really fun is just going to get noped. Since spellcasting is out, I would probably play something like a ranged Battlemaster Assassin, with Sharpshooter. You should be effective in combat with the current limitations without any one thing in your kit standing out, and with expertise you should be quite skilled outside of combat with fun things you can do.

The adventure focuses heavily on roleplaying, this was the second fight we encountered, hence the bard multiclass and the high charisma and social skills of my character. The warlock is a experienced palyer, that dms on his own another game and optimizes his character as well. him an me are both the roleplay core of the pary with the bard catching up with us and the ranger and cleric more on their own.

About the optimization of the party, the least optimized is the bard that didn't want to hear our suggestion but has 1 level above the other and exp at +10% (reminds me private servers of Ragnarok) the player has a reasonable strategy capability, the Ranger is mechanically as good as the character concept of the player could go and the cleric is *teorically* optimized too. so the characters on paper are good, with only the nerfs (and in some case the player) tying them down.

My take on the character rebuilding is to stick to proven things (mundane stuff, and what i know that already function), things that are too much hardruled in the books (as much the 5e gets it with the rule 0) and that the DM could not nerf without a too obvious deus ex machina. At least muticlassing and feats are optional and the theme of magic not functioning was revealed from start (poor cleric), and i can stand also the mixing magic ban due to the fact that the players must choose a side (kill magic, revive magic...which magic? arcane, divine or natural) that could make the thing more interesting but the timing and the severity of the ban (no mc between classes) was too off.


This might be my own personal bias showing but whenever someone clarifies another player's character as "less optimized character" I just wonder if that's the case of 2 players with different play styles. That said, this DM does seem to be running a very strange campaign that does seem built to hogtie players. But I could also see it as the result of an ambitious DM who thinks he has a cool idea for a story and doesn't really think of how it'll affect gameplay until after the magic is lost from the world and stuff (and as the DM he is making it up as he goes along so any inconsistency could be from that or a story point yet to be discovered). Or the DM could just be a giant **** who doesn't like anything that falls into his own classification of "OVERPOWERED!!!!!". I have no idea, but I do think a large part of why most DND games go south is due to a lack of communication over what people want out of the game (which is why I asked about what things were talked about in the session 0).


I would be careful of slipping into "good person" mentality here. Faults and foibles do not always make a bad person or even friend. The pattern of interaction sounds detrimental, though, and that's worth considering.
If you can't talk through or work out anything here, or you feel like you constantly have to give up enjoyment to continue, stop. It's not worth the stress.
It's likely going to come down to finding a different way to enjoy the game (rebuild as a non-contested class, have a group discussion, throw focus on efficiency out the window...) or finding different ways to enjoy that relationship (not playing D&D under said DM). Or, if it is feeling toxic, walking away from both and finding more ways to enjoy your time. There's not a blanket right/wrong answer here. The most important things are what you want to prioritize and the effects these sessions are having on you and your friend. Games are meant to bring more joy than tears.

To end thanks to everyone that answered my help request with words of wisdom and support

[GrumpyHobbit]

may i just interject - nat 20 on skill checks isnt worth anything (except if you houseruled it), so you "just" got a 24 on that role.

on everything else:
i think a DM should disclose Things like "in this world magic is acting strange" so everybody knew what they were getting into...

[Man_Over_Game]

may i just interject - nat 20 on skill checks isnt worth anything (except if you houseruled it), so you "just" got a 24 on that role.

on everything else:
i think a DM should disclose Things like "in this world magic is acting strange" so everybody knew what they were getting into...

A "Captain of the Guard" probably had like a +4 into Deception (12 Charisma, +3 Proficiency). The Captain would probably have had to roll his own Nat 20 to maintain that good of a ruse.

[Torpin]

the reasom you "have too many smites" from what I could tell is the DM doesnt know how to balance a days worth of encounters. you probably got to use a ton of smites without worrying about being out next combat. you lost abilities because the DM doesnt know how to be creative himself. it feels to me like a whole lot of hand waving done on his part and not a reasonable resemblance to the rules

[Man_Over_Game]

the reasom you "have too many smites" from what I could tell is the DM doesnt know how to balance a days worth of encounters. you probably got to use a ton of smites without worrying about being out next combat. you lost abilities because the DM doesnt know how to be creative himself. it feels to me like a whole lot of hand waving done on his part and not a reasonable resemblance to the rules

Indeed. A Paladin will almost outclass a Fighter, unless they get 2 Short Rests with at least one fight in between. Once you've hit 3 Short Rests, Fighters start to pull ahead.

[Witty Username]

I would ask if you can play a fighter, but I am of the mind that spellcasters are only fun if I can cast spells. What does the hexblade do, are their spells effected by the same restrictions?
I would try to focus str and con and smite a bunch.

[Sigreid]

I'd tell him straight up that it's bullcrap if you can't use your class features and ask him why he's intent on making the game a miserable slog. Let him try to defend his decisions.

[GrumpyHobbit]

A "Captain of the Guard" probably had like a +4 into Deception (12 Charisma, +3 Proficiency). The Captain would probably have had to roll his own Nat 20 to maintain that good of a ruse.

you're absolutely Right - i assumed he wasnt an ordinary cpt. because he seemed to Sneak attack or smite the character =)

[Wizard_Lizard]

When the party that I used to dm for breezed through an encounter, I did NOT make their class choices useless.
First time dming second time playing, but at least I knew tgat I could trust the writers of the handbooks.

[Man_Over_Game]

A bit of a cheesewhiz solution, but you could look into losing your Paladin levels some way. Maybe your Oath doesn't suit you any longer, or maybe you're cut off from the magic, or maybe you've become too reliant on the powers to do your divine work.

The thing is, he keeps nerfing things related to magic. So...what if you just avoided using magic altogether? Focus on PAM, GWM and Sentinel, or a Bear Totem Barbarian, or a Battle Master with Shield Master? If he wants mundane, show him just how ridiculous mundane can get.




---------------------



Or, just stop playing. I'd be getting frustrated after the second big change that happened at the table.

[Teaguethebean]

Honestly just ask to swap to a druid and just play a moon druid barbarian to never die and be able to be a caster when you want

[Man_Over_Game]

Honestly just ask to swap to a druid and just play a moon druid barbarian to never die and be able to be a caster when you want

Then you'll be told that you can't take your Druid form because of messed up magic mumbo jumbo.

I'm sure if OP was playing a Battle Master with GWM, the DM would be saying that the Battle Master's abilities are supernatural, using latent magic in the area to perform exceptional acts, or some BS like that, and will say that he's not allowed to use his powers.

I'm thinking the best way to work around this is to use the least amount of resources with the most amount of lethality as possible.

[Hail Tempus]

I'm thinking the best way to work around this is to use the least amount of resources with the most amount of lethality as possible. This sounds like the type of DM who will nerf sneak attack, a Barbarian's rage, all feats like GWM, PAM, Sharpshooter etc. Any effective character will likely see his abilities taken away if they prove too succesful.

This DM doesn't know what he's doing and he doesn't seem to understand things like policing the adventuring day or how to balance short rest versus long rest classes.

In short, he's a bad DM.

[Man_Over_Game]

This sounds like the type of DM who will nerf sneak attack, a Barbarian's rage, all feats like GWM, PAM, Sharpshooter etc. Any effective character will likely see his abilities taken away if they prove too succesful.

This DM doesn't know what he's doing and he doesn't seem to understand things like policing the adventuring day or how to balance short rest versus long rest classes.

In short, he's a bad DM.

Sure, but those nerfs are being defended through narrative mechanics rather than DM fiat.

"They work when the world says they do, not because I'm a jerk or anything".

When there's no narrative defense, the only support he'd have is the fact that he's being a jerk or a poorly planned DM.

But I think that's a bad long-term solution to an immediate problem. The table needs to change, or the OP needs to change tables.

[Teaguethebean]

Then you'll be told that you can't take your Druid form because of messed up magic mumbo jumbo.
Oh contraire OP said that "nature" magic worked fine in the setting unlike divine and arcane spell.

[Man_Over_Game]

Oh contraire OP said that "nature" magic worked fine in the setting unlike divine and arcane spell.

Maybe. Divine Smite doesn't use spells, though, yet the Paladin was cut off from using them.


It does make me wonder, though. What happens if you're a Druid/Cleric, or a Nature Cleric? Is that natural enough to cast uninhibited?

[Teaguethebean]

It does make me wonder, though. What happens if you're a Druid/Cleric, or a Nature Cleric? Is that natural enough to cast uninhibited?

I doubt it the DM is probably basing it of of power sources and sees primal as an uninhibited power source.