Is this too many encounters for one day?

[StevenC21]

The players:

(1) Level 6 Duskblade with the Dark template for total ECL 7

(1) Level 7 Barbarian

(1) Level 7 Cleric

(1) Level 6 Wizard

(1) Level 6 Druid

None of these guys are very optimized, but I help them sometimes, so their characters are absolutely playable, though the Wizard tends to be a bit blast-y.

Anyways, with those characters in mind, here are the encounters I have planned for the day:


Really easy, its a single Warforged Barbarian, probably level 6 or 7. It's just intended to get the players to recognize their environment is dangerous.



A pair of weak Warforged Rangers with maces. Just level 5 or so. The part here is that the area is enclosed, and the Warforged have favored Enemy: Human, and TWF fighting style, so they'll be getting several high damage attacks. The party is all human, excluding one half orc (our barbarian).



Two Warforged Psions and Two Warforged Wilders, level 6. Each one only has 1/4 the standard PP, so it won't be a curbstomp, and I've intentionally toned them down so they aren't too optimized. Their will be a large amount of space for them to maneuver around, but if the party focuses on one at a time, they should be able to take them out. The PCs will also get a surprise round if they play it smart.



After this fight, the party is going to trigger a pit trap and fall into a sewer complex underneath the Warforged stronghold. They may have a small amount of time to rest and have the Cleric cast a buff or two. Depending on their next actions, they could even get a long rest in - but it's not guaranteed.



Four alchemical zombies (Dragon Magazine #350, CR 6). It's a fairly cramped space, and they have some synergy since all their breath weapons deal acid damage, which they are immune to. Thus, they can use them without worrying about friendly fire.



Six Dire Rats advanced to 6 RHD (CR 3). Should be an easy encounter, this one is mostly designed to make the party feel powerful.


So, I calculated it all out, and according to the calculator on d20srd.org, the ECL 7 characters will gain 3430 XP, and the ECL 6 characters will gain 4320. Do you think this is fair, or reasonable?

[Palanan]

None of these encounters seems especially challenging, especially since it doesn’t look like the party will ever face more than their number of opponents. The party should breeze through these without much trouble.

I would consider adding a couple more opponents to Encounter 3, to make that more challenging, and I would drop Encounter 5 altogether. That’s just personal preference; I wouldn’t throw an easy encounter at a party for the sole purpose of making them feel powerful. It’s much more satisfying to survive a tough encounter than to trounce a trivial one.

[HouseRules]

ECL 7 XP earn = (1400) + (1050*2) + (1400*4/4) + (1400*4) + (525*6) = 13650 / 5 = 2730
ECL 6 XP earn = (1800) + (1200*2) + (1800*4/4) + (1800*4) + (600*6) = 16800 / 5 = 3360

You have to adjust for the 1/4 PP in Encounter #3, and there is no reasonable way to calculate it properly.
I just divide by 4 because the battle would be 1/4 length if players know that the encounter resource is limited.

Each ECL 7 has a goal of 2100 XP, each ECL 6 has a goal of 2400 XP (1800 XP * 1.5 catch up rate)
2730 / 2100 = 1.3 (about 104% resource usage)
3360 / 2400 = 1.4 (about 112% resource usage)

Of course, not adjusting for the 1/4 PP which is the amount to
3430 / 2100 = 1.63 (about 131% resource usage)
4320 / 2400 = 1.8 (about 144% resource usage)

100% resource usage means 50% chance of total party kill.

144% resource usage here means 72% chance of total party kill.

Resource Usage = 2x Total Party Kill Chance. If there is no chance for total party kill, then there are no resource usage at all.

You are looking at 2/3 chance of TPK if they do not get their long rest.

Of course, resource usage is non-linear, and the raw (not rules as written) experience point method is only a grasp of the results.
The raw experience point method measures a non-optimized party that perform as a tier 4 or tier 5 performance. Optimized party perform much better.

[weckar]

Out of curiosity, how do you KNOW they are going to trigger the pit tr

[StevenC21]

So, it's a DC 20 Reflex save, and all of the players have crappy Dexterity, and I don't believe any of them have a good Reflex save. If even one of them fails, they'll all go after him to try to save that guy.

If they all succeed, then by golly I have bigger problems.

[noob]

ECL 7 XP earn = (1400) + (1050*2) + (1400*4/4) + (1400*4) + (525*6) = 13650 / 5 = 2730
ECL 6 XP earn = (1800) + (1200*2) + (1800*4/4) + (1800*4) + (600*6) = 16800 / 5 = 3360

You have to adjust for the 1/4 PP in Encounter #3, and there is no reasonable way to calculate it properly.
I just divide by 4 because the battle would be 1/4 length if players know that the encounter resource is limited.

Each ECL 7 has a goal of 2100 XP, each ECL 6 has a goal of 2400 XP (1800 XP * 1.5 catch up rate)
2730 / 2100 = 1.3 (about 104% resource usage)
3360 / 2400 = 1.4 (about 112% resource usage)

Of course, not adjusting for the 1/4 PP which is the amount to
3430 / 2100 = 1.63 (about 131% resource usage)
4320 / 2400 = 1.8 (about 144% resource usage)

100% resource usage means 50% chance of total party kill.

144% resource usage here means 72% chance of total party kill.

Resource Usage = 2x Total Party Kill Chance. If there is no chance for total party kill, then there are no resource usage at all.

You are looking at 2/3 chance of TPK if they do not get their long rest.

Of course, resource usage is non-linear, and the raw (not rules as written) experience point method is only a grasp of the results.
The raw experience point method measures a non-optimized party that perform as a tier 4 or tier 5 performance. Optimized party perform much better.

Well even a lone goblin can cause total party kill if the adventurers starts chaining critical failures and that the goblin hit at each time until the adventurers runs out of healing and hit points.
What is unable to cause total party kill?
Even a muffin could cause total party kill if the adventurers starts fighting over the muffin.

[Awakeninfinity]

My DM would replace all enemies with one 11th level barabarian half-dragon orc with 14th level PC Gear with a small horde of orc back-up (including a Druid or cleric shaman Cohort) (and yes; he'd know that his players could not realistically handle them) so I have no real way to gauge those encounters.


I'm kidding about the not being able to gauge part; I'd drop the dire rats as it seems a little extraneous- and they will need a day or two to get back on their feet; possibly more if they use consumables. There is a chance of death that can drastically increase if they don't work together. That's my prediction. But it's not too many encounters; as it lacks anything above their ability.

I believe that Alchemical Zombies are probably going to be the potential gamebreaker if they don't use resist Energy to resist the acid. But they have an opportunity to rest beforehand; so it's kinda they're fault if they screw that up

All in all; much better than what I'm currently bdealing with...

[Helluin]

The “long rest” confuses me a bit. Is this meant to be a question about a 5E game? I haven’t played 5E but isn’t the resting rules quite different?

[StevenC21]

What are you currently dealing with?

[StevenC21]

Sorry, I shouldn't have said long rest. I started out with 5E, and I often use that terminology.

This is a 3.5e game, and they will have a chance to get an 8 hour rest break if they clear a certain room.

[Awakeninfinity]

What are you currently dealing with?

The aforementioned Half-dragon orc with leadership; here's the link to a thread I started for my own abuse of some of his logic.

Here it is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?588097-I-need-help-building-an-Uber-charger-ranger-with-a-few-house-rules) most of it is logic that completely breaks game balance; requiring optimized throw away characters just to keep up l... If he didn't use these house rules; the situation we are in wouldn't require a dues ex machina (we are trapped in an ancient Dwarven prison overrun by Orcs with the linked house rules in effect and abused maliciously)
I'd say more but I'm getting off topic.

[HouseRules]

Well even a lone goblin can cause total party kill if the adventurers starts chaining critical failures and that the goblin hit at each time until the adventurers runs out of healing and hit points.
What is unable to cause total party kill?
Even a muffin could cause total party kill if the adventurers starts fighting over the muffin.

Well it is so:

10% Easy
20% Easy if Handled Properly
50% Challenging
15% Very Difficult
5% Overwhelming

No Experience (< 1.875% Resource)
(Encounter Level = Effective Average Party Level - 7) Easy (1.875% Resource)
(Encounter Level = Effective Average Party Level - 6) Easy (2.5% Resource)
(Encounter Level = Effective Average Party Level - 5) Easy (3.75% Resource)
(Encounter Level = Effective Average Party Level - 4) Easy (5% Resource)
(Encounter Level = Effective Average Party Level - 3) Easy (7.5% Resource)
(Encounter Level = Effective Average Party Level - 2) Easy (10% Resource)
(Encounter Level = Effective Average Party Level - 1) Easy if Handled Properly (15% Resource)
(Encounter Level = Effective Average Party Level) Challenging (20% Resource)
(Encounter Level = Effective Average Party Level +1) Very Difficult (30% Resource)
(Encounter Level = Effective Average Party Level +2) Very Difficult (40% Resource)
(Encounter Level = Effective Average Party Level +3) Very Difficult (60% Resource)
(Encounter Level = Effective Average Party Level +4) Very Difficult (80% Resource)
(Encounter Level = Effective Average Party Level +5) Overwhelming (120% Resource)
(Encounter Level = Effective Average Party Level +6) Overwhelming (160% Resource)
(Encounter Level = Effective Average Party Level +7) Overwhelming (240% Resource)
No Experience (>240% Resource)

You get no experience is |CR - APL| > 7.

EPL (Effective Average Party Level) is APL (Average Party Level) with adjustment for party size not 4.

The goal of a GM is to get an average of 80% Resource expenditure per day.
Sometimes more, and sometimes less.
Every Overwhelming encounter will eventually lead to a long rest or travel time.
Boss fight are assumed to be Very Difficult 80% without resting after three or four Easy encounters, so those fights take more than 100% in that day.
Average of 80% Resource expenditure per day does not mean always 80%.


Edit: There is a joke about catching up to real time which is an old rule zero of the game.
Since combat last 3 rounds in game or 18 seconds game time, but takes 45 minutes of real time, a short rest is a catch up to real time.
In other words, a short rest refers to resting for the remainder 14 or so minutes.
A long rest refers to having a space to camp for 8 hours of rest, which means 10 hours because someone has to have night watch.

[noob]

So you expect your adventurers to be able to survive 50 encounters with muffins(roughly 2% chance that the adventurers successfully kills all each other in the fight against the muffin) per day?
How does they survive?

[awa]

While I dont have a problem with a fights designed to make the pcs feel powerful, Rats aren't a great choice for that because rats aren't impressive. A good candidate for a fight to make the pcs feel powerful particularly if they have been playing for a while is some kind of enemy they fought at low level so they can feel how far they have come (So i guess if they fought rats at level 1 and had some real difficulty that would be good but otherwise id recommend you pick something else.)

[HouseRules]

A Social Encounter TPK means the party has to Follow a Railroad the DM has designed.

While 50% of encounters are assumed to take 20% resource, they could take more by the Pessimisized characters.
Remember that players have an average of 4 encounters because most encounters take up 20% resource.

Internal guidelines by the books are RAW.
You could always DM away from RAW and use RAI instead.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Honestly, this seems absolutely fine to me. The wizard may struggle for spells if he/she didn't buy a wand or a Reserve Feat, but shouldn't be entirely out of spells if they can grab an 8-hour rest. And in any case, that's just a way for the party martials to feel more useful :D
Everyone deserves their time to shine!

Regarding the dire rats : several other posters have said to remove them. I would only do so if your players are getting sick of fights and want a change of pace. Otherwise, I think that "a fight that lets them feel powerful" is quite nice.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I've done more encounters than that in a single day at those levels. As long as they have a wand of CLW or lesser vigor (or both, both is good....) and have an idea ahead of time that they're in for a long day (so the casters know not to use spells up frivolously), it's totally fine. I think having tons of encounters in a day is actually ideal for caster/martial balancing. Unfortunately, having 6+ encounters every day is impossible, often implausible, and just way too much time and work.

Allowing reserve feats helps a bunch, too.
I allowed them for psionics as well where I could (a lot of disciplines have analogues to schools or subschools); the psionic character "quarantines off" the pp for the power they plan to hold in reserve (augmented up front exactly how it is to be, for example making a 5th level electric ray to power Storm Bolt as a 5d6 attack) and can only spend that pp on exactly that power and augmentation selection. Until he does so, he can use it to power the reserve feat. And it is still pp remaining, so if it's like his only pp left, he still can attain psionic focus.
I try to encourage my casters to be conservative w/ their casting...

[Silentline]

That looks like a fairly decent encounter for one day. But if they are T-0 you may want to scale it down a bit. However if they are experts in the system and are well laid out. Tack on a bit more hardship to it like bad weather or other edges that place NPC badies with an advantage or 3. Old hard back 80's D&D used allot of circumstance negatives and bonuses that really impacted the outcome. The newer editions don't put tons of emphasis on this which makes the game more survivable due to rules updates (thank god).

-Personal DM Tier judgements-
Tier0-Below Standard: Terribly underpowered a burden to the team. Kitchen Ant damage has killed them yet again WITH multiple saves to avoid it... -.- The best a character of this level can hope for is a shallow grave and a nameless tombstone cluttered with the hatred of other characters it knows as baby sitters.

Tier1-Amatuer. Standard player packages will make a difference later on with high rolls. Give him a +5 Axe of instant beheading against a goblin and he's a hero. :|

Tier2-Above average: Multiclassing , templating, and customizing gear to somewhat better effect. They hold their own with a +1 mug of ale and a table for a shield. :)

Tier3-Elite: Quick progression or constant power stacking in some overwhelming fashion. They make a difference and are reliable enough to last under many bad circumstances. The missing teeth on that dragon is their doing alright. :>

Tier4-Godlike: Can alter the game universe with little effort. Or using ones character resources to critical effects. They are strong enough to carry the entire team in their department and can outclass many enemies by just standing there. Their meanest scowl might explode enemies on contact. :D

Tier 5-A Deity: So OP that game masters are hard pressed to slow them down using standard rules. The character is so well crafted it can possibly exploit game options that Tier4 characters cant even touch. At this level they eat enemy npc's for breakfast finding it common place when a DM says, "Aries has showed up for a rematch and this time he's brought Tempest and Set to back him up.". >:D