Need help with Hi-Op/Mid-Tier Build

[Mongobear]

Coming back to a 3.5e group after a loooooong vacation in 5e and various other systems not d20 related.

They're level 10 atm, and the DM described them as "Hi-Optimized/Lower Tier" which I guess means no T1-2 stuff unless your build is on the weaker end, and stuff like Tome of Battle is likely the target for martials.

I want to build a character I used to play years and years ago, whose goal was to get as many attribute modifiers added to damage.

When I made it before, I combined Swashbuckler + Paladin + Fighter and the PrC Champion of Correllon Larethian to get Str/Dex/Int added to weapon attacks.

I'm wondering if there is a better way to accomplish this, without breaking the game by Gishing, or just outclassing the rest of the group.

Afaik, anything 3.5 official is allowed, no PF reverse compatible, or 3rd Party.

If anyone can show me the most optimized build possible for this, or even suggest alternatives, I'd appreciate it.

[ViperMagnum357]

Shiba Protector from Oriental Adventures is aggravating to get into-feat taxe of 2 for Iron Will and Alertness, 4 ranks in Knowledge (Religion), and you are restricted to a Human regional variant that offers nothing else of value, but a 1 level dip allows you to add your Wisdom modifier to all attack and damage rolls, which can be a big boost if you did not dump it.

Also this thread will be of use http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus, listing all the first party ways to add extra bonuses using a different ability score.

[MisterKaws]

There are also a few ways to add charisma and wisdom, but I think there's a better solution: why not add your strength four times over instead? Eight-arm weapons from Savage Species let you add 4.5x your strength bonus to damage. You just need to get eight arms, either by grafts, spells, or just by taking anthrosquid as your race.

I recently started tinkering with an anthrosquid build using an Eight-arm Footbow to actually deal decent damage with a bow. Some people argue that, since the anthro-mollusks aren't specially mentioned to have multiple arms with opposable thumbs, you need to equip either Gloves of Man or add the Opposable enhancement to the weapon, but otherwise it's 100% legal.

[Mongobear]

...but I think there's a better solution: why not add your strength four times over instead? Eight-arm weapons from Savage Species let you add 4.5x your strength bonus to damage...


I thought of this, but I think your suggestion is a little bit too strong for the goal.

Maybe something will 4x Arms would slide, but 8x Arms is probably pushing it.

Also, LA races needed to be pre-approved and we're capped at total LA/RHD of 3, allowing buyback with enough XP to remain 10th level.

Also, Grafts aren't allowed, I forgot about them until they came up.

[MisterKaws]

I thought of this, but I think your suggestion is a little bit too strong for the goal.

Maybe something will 4x Arms would slide, but 8x Arms is probably pushing it.

Also, LA races needed to be pre-approved and we're capped at total LA/RHD of 3, allowing buyback with enough XP to remain 10th level.

Also, Grafts aren't allowed, I forgot about them until they came up.

Funny thing. Squid just happens to have a starting ECL of 3, but I get ya.

You could use Arms of Plenty or Girallon's Blessing, but those are spells, so you'd need to go caster.

By the way, if you do some math with multiplier stacking rules, a four-armed Frenzied Berserker should have a x4 to strength as well, with a downside of being dumb and risky to anyone nearby, including party mates.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

For extra arms, two levels of Totemist (for Girallon Arms, bound to the totem chakra) or the Insectile Creature template (Savage Species) each give you four more arms at the cost of two ECL. Combine the two for extra fun!

Note: Girallon Arms don't actually say you can wield weapons with them, so you may want the Opposable property on the weapon.

[Mongobear]

Is Thri-Kreen (non-Psionic) ECL 3? Been awhile since I checked them.

I've done the crazy Leap Attack/Shocktrooper/Frenzied Berserker build with them before, I don't want to go fo that again, as I think it's be a bit too good for the group.

I'm considering a Warblade/Eternal Blade atm, just for funsies, it gets a few more restricted ways to add extra stats to damage.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What do you want the character to do? Just hit stuff for high damage? That's honestly really easy to do in a lot of different ways. What is it that's going to make this character special, in-character? He's not going to introduce himself to the party by saying, "I can add 6x my Str bonus to my damage rolls!"

There's nothing special about a character whose only schtick is high damage output. What do you want the character to do, other than deal damage?

[ViperMagnum357]

Is Thri-Kreen (non-Psionic) ECL 3? Been awhile since I checked them.

Non-Psionic Thri-Kreen are RHD 2 and LA +1, so just barely fit. The RHD are at least full BAB, though.

[Anthrowhale]

Trying to get a bonus from many different stats isn't high op, because it drives you towards MAD. If you want a high damage melee fighter-type, maybe consider something like:

Human Rogue (Penetrating Strike ACF) 3/Sneak Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) Exoticist (Dragon #310) Fighter

As an exoticist, pick up Exotic Weapon proficiency[Spiked Chain] + 3 other exotic weapons (your choice)

Human: Improved Trip //Tripping is fun
1. Combat Reflexes //free trip opportunities and a prereq.
3. Knock-down //Free trips
6. Versatile Flanker //a prereq, but +2 to hit isn't bad
9. Adaptable Flanker //Now you can flank for _yourself_.

Pay for a Strength enhancement+2 item and a pearl of power to have one of the casters (is there one?) cast Greater Magic Weapon on your Spiked chain and Magic Vestment on your armor. Get an animated shield+1 and similarly have it buffed daily.

Now pay for a spellcaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell) to permanently cast Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm)[War Troll (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040815b&page=6)] at caster level 20 on you making it essentially undispellable by CR 10ish opponents.

Your situational attack bonus is +27/+22=9(BAB)+11(Strength)+3(enhancement)+4(Versatile Flanker). If you can't flank, your to-hit is "only" +23/+18, which is still quite good at ECL 10. In addition you have 4 attacks of opportunity/round in a 20' range.

Your expected damage on hit is ~47 = 2d6(base)+16(Strength)+3(enhancement)+6d6(sneak attack)+Dazing Blow (Daze Fort 24 or Neg)+ Knockdown Trip (Effective Strength bonus 21=11 Str+4(Improved Trip)+2(Weapon)+4(Large)), where you get another attack (with another Dazing Blow!) if you successfully trip. Due to natural variation, you even regularly threaten death by massive damage. If the enemy is immune to sneak attack it's only ~36.5, and if you can't flank it's only ~26, but Adaptable Flanker + reach means you can autoflank essentially all adjacent foes.

Your AC is 40 = 10(base)-1(size)+14(natural armor)+3(Dexterity)+6(Mithril chain shirt + Dastana + Chahar-Aina)+3(armor enhance)+2(shield)+3(Shield enhance) making you nigh untouchable while still being unimpeded. Your have base Fort+15, Refl+8(Evasion), and Will+3, so a high wisdom or assistance from a spellcaster is helpful.

The Thug levels only give 4+int for skills, but you can spread out your rogue levels and use your native Intelligence, which could be decent since you really only need Strength 15 and Dexterity 13 for feat prerequisites. Given this, you could potentially cover a few skill-based roles as well.

This is probably a Tier 4ish build, but because it delivers heavy lockdown and damage it's probably to high op for some tables.

[Mongobear]

Trying to get a bonus from many different stats isn't high op, because it drives you towards MAD.


By "High Op" I meant taking choices that actually help/lead toward the goal, and not take dumb stuff like Toughness or skill feats.

You can play a low tier class, and still highly optimize your choices, which is what I'm aiming for.

As far as others asking bg what i want the character to do outside of damage... Not die? We aren't exactly the most RP/Exploration focused group, so short of having relevant skills for combat or a few random ones like a token Knowledge skill, I don't know.

When I looked into the Eternal Blade idea, I had an idea of an Eldar Aspect Warrior from wh40k, who is just following in the footsteps of his ancestors, and being sort of a wizend old mentor who if full of combat advice and tactical knowledge, as well as maybe knowledge of ancient Kingdoms/Civilizations via the spirit blade thing.

[Anthrowhale]

By "High Op" I meant taking choices that actually help/lead toward the goal, and not take dumb stuff like Toughness or skill feats.
By the not-taking-dumb-stuff standard the rogue/fighter is overpowered.


You can play a low tier class, and still highly optimize your choices, which is what I'm aiming for.

Rogue is considered Tier 4 while Fighter is considered tier 5.

[emeraldstreak]

OP is correct optimization =/= tier.

[Particle_Man]

Thri-keen warblades can be fun since some tiger claw maneuvers are based off of jumping, and since the race has extra arms some of the tiger claw multi-attack boosts can come in handy.

[justiceforall]

Is the adaptable flanker trick to flank with yourself actually RAW valid? If so that's hilarious.

[MisterKaws]

Is the adaptable flanker trick to flank with yourself actually RAW valid? If so that's hilarious.

If you have natural reach, and can threaten the other side of someone you're targeting, yep.

Só basically squid rogues are unreasonably overpowered against the same target. Good to know, gonna note that down.