Brainstorming: player wants to Hulk style a Warforged Barbarian

[Zhorn]

So one of my players is setting up a Warforged Juggernaut Barbarian (Berserker), and wants to have it fight Hulk style; grabbing, smashing, slamming anything and anyone in its path. No dedicated weapons, just unarmed strikes and grapples (specifically with the Tavern Brawler and Grappler feats).

Narratively, we're going to have the character have a habit of modifying themselves with upgrades to make them more suited to fighting this way (things like weighted arms and legs getting their attacks out of the world of 1d4's, or grappling chains, spike gauntlets, etc), but mechanically I want to get a good gauge on how much damage dice to let them get away with to make them feel viable in combat, but not so strong as to outshine the folks playing their classes directly as written.

Assuming the Greataxe/Greatsword/Polearm should still perform better in terms of damage output, where should I cap the base attack damage dice. I feel 2d4's and 1d8's for attacks should still feel viable, or should I let them get up to 1d10's?

Attacks will get consumed every now and them on grapples, so there's a damage loss there, but with the combination of being a Warforged Juggernaut with Grappler and Tavern Brawler, I'm going to let them do things like recreate the "Puny God" scene from Avengers.

So for attacks they have:
Unarmed Strikes
Small improvised weapons
Medium Improvised weapons
Large Improvised weapons
Slamming a single grappled enemy into walls/floor (one enemy using two hands)
Using a single grappled enemy as an improvised weapon
Smashing two grappled enemies into each-other (one enemy in each hand)

What would reasonable upper limits be on each of these for damage dice?
I don't plan on giving them everything at top damage from the start. Begin with most things using the basic improvised weapon rules and build up from there based on what body modifications they pursue. Just wanting to know a good cap to rule as "no further than this point"

I'm thinking slamming one enemy into another would be a 1d6+STR.

[Damon_Tor]

At it's core, the "puny god" maneuver is just a way of describing several unarmed strikes against a grappled opponent. Slamming two grappled opponents together is just a way of describing an unarmed attack against each of those opponents. There are no special rules required to make any of this work the way you imagine.

The only "Homebrew" you appear to desire is the ability to increase the damage of the juggernaut's unarmed attacks. A magic item that does this would be fairly uncontrovertial.

If it were me, I'd equip him with a magic item that lets him cast Enlarge on himself concentration free number of times per day equal to his CON modifier, then costs him a hit die every time he uses it thereafter. Be clear his fists growing bigger does count as getting bigger weapons for unarmed strikes, so each hit would deal 2d4+str damage.

[Zhorn]

Oh we already have ideas of what to do to enable the changes in damage, in game it'll be described as his body modifications, but from a GM/Player perspective it'll be achieved via crafted items (eventually magic, but non-magic at start).
It's the size of the dice which is what we're looking for advice on.
At the start of the game the character will be operating using 1d4's for unarmed strikes and improvised weapons using RAW, but as the player makes their 'modifications', those damage dice will be increased.

It's advice on the upper limits of damage dice to allow them to work towards is what I'm after.
Ideally someone who knows what damage range barbarians would occupy compared to other classes, and what I can give this player that would be 'good' but not seem 'too good'. This isn't a player looking for an optimal build, they just don't want to be sub-par with their for-fun-build.

[Vogie]

What I'd do is:

Unarmed Strikes - 1d4
Small improvised weapons - 1d4, Thrown property 20/60
Unarmed or small improvised strikes against Grappled Targets - 1d6
Medium Improvised weapons - 1d6 Thrown 10/15
Large Improvised weapons - 1d8, no thrown, but can use a bonus action to give it reach and change damage die to d10 this turn.
Slamming a single grappled enemy into walls/floor (one enemy using two hands) - 2d6
Using a single grappled enemy as an improvised weapon - 1d4 if small creature, 1d6 if medium
Smashing two grappled enemies into each-other (one enemy in each hand) - reduces speed while grappling 2 targets, deals 1d6+1d4 to each target.
If enlarged, just add an additional d4 of damage to all of the above.

[Rukelnikov]

Oh we already have ideas of what to do to enable the changes in damage, in game it'll be described as his body modifications, but from a GM/Player perspective it'll be achieved via crafted items (eventually magic, but non-magic at start).
It's the size of the dice which is what we're looking for advice on.
At the start of the game the character will be operating using 1d4's for unarmed strikes and improvised weapons using RAW, but as the player makes their 'modifications', those damage dice will be increased.

It's advice on the upper limits of damage dice to allow them to work towards is what I'm after.
Ideally someone who knows what damage range barbarians would occupy compared to other classes, and what I can give this player that would be 'good' but seem 'too good'. This isn't a player looking for an optimal build, they just don't want to be sub-par with their for-fun-build.

A barb could be weilding a longsword and benefit from a shield, or weild a Glaive and benefit from PAM. I think up to 1d8 is perfectly fine.

[MagneticKitty]

Player is already giving up magic weapons (except homebrew) if theyre really sticking to it. Juggernaut warforged get a d6 already if i remember right. Maybe let each source of unarmed scale up the dice once to a max of d12.. also allow their fists to be magic to bypass resistance at 6. Maybe monk 6 /barb x
You could roll these abilities into a barb subclass home brew it just say for this character his fists scale

Or look at pugilist x / barb 1

Main issues to overcome:
No magic weapons (except insignia of claws if allowed)
Primary weapon can't get past magic resistance
Low damage

So decide how to address these and your set. Pugilist homebrew does it for you, there's even a grappling subclass and a luchador one

[Wildarm]

Most of it depends on how he wants to progress. For a pure barbarian, I would let him take a warforged feat that gives him scaling unarmed strike damage and magic bypass the same as a monks fists. Just be careful not to step on the monks toes. Don't give strength bonus damage to the offhand attack.

Alternately, encourage him to simply dip 1 level barbarian and then go all monk but just keep playing as the hulk so ignore wisdom based defenses and abilities. Use your ki points to flurry every round. Rage and SMASH SMASH SMASH. As a DM I'd probably throw him a bone and waive the wisdom MC requirement for the monk if you're using point buy. If you're rolling stats then potentially wisdom could be decent. Stunning strikes fluffed as grabbing the enemy and slamming him against a wall or floor works just fine.

Another thought - Barb 1/ Kensei X - Allow him to choose improvised weapons as his kensei weapon. Rest of the subclass can work mechanically fine with that addition.

[Nhorianscum]

Oh we already have ideas of what to do to enable the changes in damage, in game it'll be described as his body modifications, but from a GM/Player perspective it'll be achieved via crafted items (eventually magic, but non-magic at start).
It's the size of the dice which is what we're looking for advice on.
At the start of the game the character will be operating using 1d4's for unarmed strikes and improvised weapons using RAW, but as the player makes their 'modifications', those damage dice will be increased.

It's advice on the upper limits of damage dice to allow them to work towards is what I'm after.
Ideally someone who knows what damage range barbarians would occupy compared to other classes, and what I can give this player that would be 'good' but not seem 'too good'. This isn't a player looking for an optimal build, they just don't want to be sub-par with their for-fun-build.

1d4 per unarmed/improv double per size category the player increases.

Past that...

Allow power attack on heavy items with GWM and allow horizantal fall damage per throws. For throwing big stuff look into giant stat blocks, for REALLY big stuff 1d10x100lbs save for half is my houserule.

[Zhorn]

Juggernaut warforged get a d6 already if i remember right. Maybe let each source of unarmed scale up the dice once to a max of d12.
Close enough, Iron Fists gives them a 1d4. But I like the idea of letting those effect stack by scaling up the dice. A simple enough ruling that if another player wants to do something similar I'm not reinventing the wheel and treating each case as unique.
"Any feature that scales unarmed strikes from 1+STR to 1d4+STR now stack, with each applied feature stepping up the damage dice by one size to a maximum of 1d12"
Short and sweet, with a 'general rule' vibe to it. I may just add that to my table rules. Also lets the monk at my table also take advantage of it if they get worried about this metal head encroaching on their territory.


Main issues to overcome:
No magic weapons (except insignia of claws if allowed)
Primary weapon can't get past magic resistance
Low damage

So decide how to address these and your set. Pugilist homebrew does it for you, there's even a grappling subclass and a luchador one
For magic items, we're going to have a variation on integrated weapons. With some downtime crafting, they'll be allowed to 'deconstruct' the magic weapon and spend some resources making an integration unit that imparts a similar bonus to their attack rolls (think the classic arm blades, only without the actual 'blade' part). If they could use the item as it was, then this is just allowing them the same thing with the extra step of making it feel like something intended for their build (playing make-believe is fun that way :smallbiggrin: ).


1d4 per unarmed/improv double per size category the player increases.

Past that...

Allow power attack on heavy items with GWM and allow horizantal fall damage per throws. For throwing big stuff look into giant stat blocks, for REALLY big stuff 1d10x100lbs save for half is my houserule.
Probably not intentionally going down the enlarge route. Not forbidding it though. Let the players decide if they want to pursue that objective.
GWM I'm thinking I wont touch either. That's already a dominant feat in the weapons area, no need to give it more territory to rule over.
Horizontal fall damage for throws is a good one. Every 10 feet thrown is treated as a 10 foot fall. Might dig through the wording used for Fling in the Monster Manual; but thinking something like "Throwing a grappled creature, 1 attack of the Attack Action, requires two hands, distance determined by an athletics check, damage calculation treated as a fall of that distance, cannot lift and throw creatures larger than your size" (specifying 'lift' so that Powerful Build would be allowed).


-snip-
I like this too as a building block.

And regarding all the posts on class swapping or multiclassing; not my character, not my choice. I'm sure they're all great builds, but they picked barbarian and they have their reasons.

[Bloodcloud]

I mean, 1 handed martial weapons are 1d8, 2 handed go to 2d6. You can give him anything between these 2 while using strenght and you're not upsetting the balance in the slightest. Monk's shtick is doing his unarmed damage with dex, after all...

[Contrast]

Narratively, we're going to have the character have a habit of modifying themselves with upgrades to make them more suited to fighting this way (things like weighted arms and legs getting their attacks out of the world of 1d4's, or grappling chains, spike gauntlets, etc), but mechanically I want to get a good gauge on how much damage dice to let them get away with to make them feel viable in combat, but not so strong as to outshine the folks playing their classes directly as written.

Just to say you could make the whole thing quite a bit simpler by using the Armblade item. Fluff it as a giant weighted fist he can attach and detach and make it to bludgeoning. Works fine for any single handed weapon so I'd probably cap it at d8 but with magic items you can get funky with secondary effects. Also gets around the magic damage problem.

Tavern Brawler covers any other improvised weapons.

[Zhorn]

Thanks everyone for the input. I'll run this stuff by with the player tomorrow.
Most of it will be enabled via small table rulings, with the intent of it not being a class specific method of play (I'm pretty sure the firbolg monk will like to give some opponent throwing a try too).
Still keen to hear any other ideas people might have, but once I have a more cleanly worded version, I'll throw it up in homebrew for people to have a pick at.

[Zhorn]

...once I have a more cleanly worded version, I'll throw it up in homebrew for people to have a pick at...

And for the one or two people with a vague passing interest in what it looks like
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?589520-Some-hulk-style-grappling-rules
here it is ready to be torn to shreds by folks more talented than I :smallbiggrin: