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View Full Version : DM Help Eldritch Knight w/ Sorcerer Spell List & Charisma (Cha)?



Grog Logs
2019-05-28, 11:45 AM
******CEPHALON CAMPAIGN STAY OUT************

A Level 7 Player recently asked me to respec his subclass from Champion Fighter to Eldritch Knight (EK) Fighter. I am okay with this and have at least two story-relevant ways this could happen in 5-15 sessions (depending on where the party goes and what they do). However, he also asked to make the EK a Charisma-based (Cha) caster using the Sorcerer spell list instead of an Intelligence-based (Int) caster using the Wizard spell list. His reasoning is that Int casters study magic (which his PC has not) whereas Cha casters use magic from within. So, lore-based reasoning.

I suggested that he multiclass into Sorcerer (in addition to or instead of EK subclass switch) instead of changing the EK subclass. I also suggested Paladin and Cleric multiclassing. I am willing to retroactively make the multiclass (e.g., Champion 5 / Sorcerer 2 or Eldritch Knight 5 / Paladin 2). However, he would rather not multiclass unless the story arc pushes his PC that way. I also offered to steer his magic item to spell-casting ones, as another way to get spells (or spell-like abilities).

We are also discussing possibly changing his race from Variant Human to Aasimar (Scourge or Fallen). I have no problem with the potential race switch, as it would fit with the story and other PC arcs. However, as Aasimar is a Cha-based race, I have some concerns about the EK to Cha/Sorcerer switch giving him a bit of an edge. Few races give Int and Str based bonuses (i.e., Githyanki, Half-Elf, V/Human), which seems intentional from a design standpoint.

I have been playing with this Player for about 3 years, so he is not a power gamer or munchkin. He's been very engaged in RP - both in game and behind the scenes with his downtime. I believe him when he says that it's for lore reasons to modify the EK to Cha/Sorcerer.

For what it's worth, the other PCs are a Phoenix Sorcerer 6 / Hexblade Warlock 1, Revised Ranger 6, Gunsmith Artificer 6, and Glamour Bard 5. The Bard is often absent from sessions.

So, fellow Playgrounders, should I enforce the EK as written? Should I be more flexible? Are there any downsides to altering the EK if multiclassing into Cha-based classes is not allowed or carefully controlled? Is it unfair to allow three UA subclasses but be rigid on the PHB subclasses?

Talsin
2019-05-28, 12:01 PM
I don't see a reason this would be game-breaking at first glance; think of it similar to Valor/Sword Bard, but more fightery. My only beef with it is that a Full-blooded sorceror only gets 2 spells more than the EK, but that's regardless of the change.

LudicSavant
2019-05-28, 12:02 PM
Are there any downsides to altering the EK if multiclassing into Cha-based classes is not allowed or carefully controlled?

Not really, especially if they're trading in the superior Wizard spell list.

Bjarkmundur
2019-05-28, 12:58 PM
go for it :)

There's even a suggestion in the PHB (I think), regarding swapping spell lists for classes. I allow this, except the wizard spell list is wizard-only.
I think Kane0 made a Sorcerer subclass for the barbarian if you want to go full 1/3 sorcerer with a subclass. You can take a look at how he turned the sorcerer into a 1/3 progression and slap it onto a fighter.

Man_Over_Game
2019-05-28, 01:07 PM
I've done a lot of multiclassing homebrew for my Prestige Options. One thing you really need to be careful of is allowing any class rampant access to Sorcerer or Warlock levels. Those two subclasses have benefits that scale exceptionally well with high caster levels, and so can push the normal levels of what a character is supposed to do with caster multiclassing.

Now, Sorcerer doesn't really provide much in this instance. The Default Eldritch Knight already has wizard cantrips, Shield and Absorb Elements. The only other concern is mixing spells with Metamagic, but....what's an Eldritch Knight going to do with that?

The real concern then is Warlock levels. With Warlock levels, he'd be able to consistently fuel his defensive spells. Shield lasts an entire round, a fight lasts about 3-4 rounds, most fights have a Short Rest in between...so...with two levels of Warlock, the Fighter could have Shield active almost 50% of the time. Or level up to Warlock 3 For Darkness and Devil's Sight, and now it's Advantage to hit with the Fighter's high damage attacks, Disadvantage to hit the Fighter against his high AC and his high HP pool...you get the idea.

So I'd just add the stipulation that he cannot take Warlock levels, or, if he does, he defaults to using Intelligence as his EK's casting stat. Any other combination (EK + Paladin/Sorcerer/Bard/Etc) doesn't have enough synergies to really be worth tracking. Bard might, but nothing close to Warlock.


I have a whole list of primary attribute changes, and the balance analysis of doing so for every single listed change, in my Prestige Options link in my signature. Beyond a few small things (Efficient armor proficiencies for a full caster, Sorcerer or Warlock levels for a full caster), there's very few things that break by changing around attributes.

QuickLyRaiNbow
2019-05-28, 01:24 PM
I'd allow it.

Taking him at his word that he's not interested in multiclassing, you won't have to worry about any of the various paladin, bard or warlock combinations that lead to powerful SAD characters. While aasimar is a powerful race for a Cha-based EK, vHu isn't weak. Power-wise, it's probably a lateral move racially (I assume he's not going to be doubling up on racial benefits). If all you're doing is changing spell lists and casting stat, I don't see anything terribly dangerous here for a single-classed character.

Keravath
2019-05-28, 03:43 PM
I don't see at as a big deal unless they might multiclass into sorcerer or another cha caster class later. Even then it probably wouldn't be game breaking but an EK based on charisma could multiclass to sorcerer/bard/warlock or even paladin if they are strength based while the standard int based EK is most easily multiclassed into wizard.

However, just taking the EK template and swapping charisma for int as the casting stat and the sorcerer list for the wizard list wouldn't break anything that I can see and would give an EK that could be decent at some social skills as well. They don't get any sorcerer archetype abilities so it isn't as if they could use metamagic or other features without taking actual sorcerer levels.

sophontteks
2019-05-28, 04:24 PM
Should be fine. The sorcerer list is really just a watered-down wizard list. The only difference really is INT vs. CHA which isn't a big deal, espesially since he already made the character and didnt build his character around this. Only problems would arise if he multiclasses after, but they don't sound interested.

Grog Logs
2019-05-29, 11:08 AM
Thank you for your opinions everyone. With everyone agreeing that it shouldn't lead to problems, I'm going to offer the Player the option if he still wants it.

Vogie
2019-05-29, 12:12 PM
What I'd do is make them a charisma spell point caster, using the Spell point variant from the DMG, and disallow them to be able to MC into warlock in the future (Sorcerer and Paladin are okay).

War Magic is renamed "Quicken Attack" and Eldritch Strike is now "Heightening Attack"

ChildofLuthic
2019-05-29, 01:15 PM
I feel like the only problem with making EK charisma based is multiclassing, so it sounds fine to me.

Man_Over_Game
2019-05-29, 01:19 PM
I feel like the only problem with making EK charisma based is multiclassing, so it sounds fine to me.

And only multiclassing with Warlock, at that.